Freedom or Safety : LUSENET : Freedom! self reliance : One Thread

I am getting very afraid of what is taking place now and what is coming not only in our country but in the world. I'm talking about the heavy,heavy increase of surveillance. Hidden cameras and/or long range microphones are being installed at a unparalleled rate. In public schools,banks,lobbies and elevators of hotels/motels/apartments,nursing homes,hospitals,department stores,malls,stop lights,expressways,etc.,etc.,etc.

The law as it stands today,states there is no privacy in public places,but it has gone beyond that, the courts have agree that what is said on your front porch is public's business.

Is this REALLY the kind of world we want, not only for us but our kids? Government monitoring and control of individual lives just for greater safety. Our personal freedom is being threatened to the very core and yet we do nothing,NOTHING!! Have we become that WIMPY,that our government can spend almost $35 billion dollars to watch our every move and we approve of it. We get on these forums and chat about Goats,Sheeps,Wood Stoves,Chickens,etc. but yet we get censored by the web masters for talking about the very freedoms that hundreds of thousands of Men,Women and Children have DIED for through out the years of our nations being and which themm same freedoms have allowed us to invent and use the computer and internet in the first place. And all the while at the same time our Government and Multi-National Corporations are taking every last freedom that we have away from us and our kids. AND WE DO & SAY NOTHING!!!!! Even what I am writing now stands a good chance of setting off the federal "Carnivore" e-mail surveillance system.

It's time to WAKE UP people, this is not some Orwell theory it is here and it is alive and active. And if we don't get off the pot and start taking our freedom back then I'm afraid our sons and daughters of past have died in vain and I for one could not even look them straight in the eye for the shame that I feel inside me over what I have allowed to take place in this country. GOD HAVE MERCY ON US,FOR WE KNOW NOT WHAT WE DO!

-- TomK(mich) (, February 23, 2002


Let me be the first, Tom, to add a hearty AMEN!

-- Rags (, February 23, 2002.

As a veteran of the war for Truth and Justice and our God given rights, let me advise... PICK YOUR BATTLES WISELY!!

-- Laura (, February 23, 2002.

I keep hearing this question pop up. Do we choose Freedom or do we choose Safety? My problem with this question is this: Why does this have to be an "either/or" proposition? Why can't we have it both ways? Why can't we have Freedom **AND** Safety?

-- Nexar (, February 23, 2002.

I agree whole heartedly. And unless we do get it together, it will be too late, too soon. Some of you know what I mean when I say, "Shooters, lock and load, shoot at your own dog targets". How many will do so?

-- Bruce Ortman (, February 23, 2002.

Hello Tom,

FEAR is probably the number one reason that AMERICANS do not stand up to the GOOBERMENTS trampling of the US CONSTITUTION and WIPING THEIR HINEYS with OUR BILL OF RIGHTS! We are ALL AFRAID that if we step out of line, we will become OUTLAWS!

Though there are quite a few OUTLAWS out there already, there is certainly not enough support or unity among them to stand up against the FREEDOM SUCKING vacuum cleaners that run our lives!

The press has made a mockery out of anyone that attempts to become independant of the GOOBERMENT. IF you homestead, your a WACKO! If you stockpile for emergency, your a WACKO! If you have an unusual RELIGION, again, your a WACKO! The press has DESTROYED the American that wants to Stand on his own. The GOOBERMENT has and is STILL controlling what the PRESS is allowed to say. Demostrate in FRONT of your LOCAL Newspapers DOORS about them NOT TELLING US the TRUTH!

If you SEE Survaliance Cameras anywhere....shoot them out with your GUNS. If they replace them....shoot them out AGAIN, and AGAIN! Make them spend our TAX DOLLARS until they QUIT installing them! Demostrate on the COURT HOUSE STAIRS your VIEWS and DISAGREEMENTS about EXCESSIVE CONTROL, NEEDLESS WARS, IMMORAL LEADERSHIP, OVER TAXATION, RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT OF CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, or anything else that MAKES YOU MAD!

What most AMERICANS should do is to work the UNDERGROUND movements with as much ferociousity as they can. This will keep the GOOBERMENT out of their lives much more than just complaining about the NEW WORLD ORDER which is coming into place.

BARTER, TRADE, WORK OFF THE BOOKS as much as you can! This help to keep THEM from taking everything you earn away in TAXES!

KEEP AND BEAR ARMS! Make a statement to your GOOBERMENT officials by getting a WEAPONS PERMIT. Every year the GOOBERMENT watches in TERROR at the number of ARM CITIZENS across the country. They are AFRAID of us only as long as WE demostrate the importance of the SECOND ADMENDMENT! Do not let this one get away or the rest will be worth less than the paper they are written on!

FIGHT against any attempts in your state for NATIONAL ID. If they convert your Driver License to a National ID, refuse to renew it! If you are afraid of driving without a license, then you will LOSE and they will win!

If NOT having a National ID will not let you BUY GROCERIES....GROW THEM instead. If NOT having a National ID will keep you from withdrawing MONEY out of the BANK....take your money out and HIDE it in you mattress! DO NOT let them manipulate you into BELIEVING that this is JUST ANOTHER security is a trap to control you more than you have ever been controlled in your LIFE!

We are living in a SEA of LAWS that we cannot possibly obey and they know it. Sometimes LAWS are so impossible to obey it seems that the GOOBERMENT is trying to make us ALL into CRIMINALS! If that is the case, just stand by the laws that promote moral responsiblity only.

This is just a few ways to FIGHT BACK! I am sure if enough of us do, there will be changes in the GOOBERMENTS attitude towards us COMMON PEOPLE. IF least we can say that we FOUGHT BACK and did not let them take it all away in the middle of the night while SLEEPING!

As long as WE THE AMERICAN PUBLIC stand together we will at worst HANG TOGETHER.

Sincerely, Ernest

-- (, February 23, 2002.

Wow Ernest!!!! That is the first time I have ever seen you rant... Congratulations on a GREAT rant!

You have NO idea how good it is to see people who are awake- it gets awfully discouraging at times to talk to people who really have no idea what is happening because they think Peter Jennings is keeping them tremendously informed...sigh.

Nexar, there is NO way that life can be made safe. It is a fatal condition with very few guarantees. Liberty is achieved through being moral, steadfast, and courteous while fully comprehending that there is NO guarantee that you will not be offended in life. Safety in the sense of conducting ~~~~yourself~~~~ with awareness of the fragile mortality we all have is to be comended, but putting all personal freedom and liberty aside in the name of the illusion of safety is tyranny. We have all begun to accept being treated as guilty until proven innocent. You can be arresed for anything for no reason if you leave your property. This doesn't make me feel safe at all. It makes me feel I live in a police state. Life is FATAL. I don't love it enough to check into a rubber room with purified air and Howard Hughes levels of sanitation and armed security all around me. Why???? You still die!

I passed three intersections with surveillance cameras on the way to airport today. I'll be honest- I flip them off whenever I see one. They have super bullet proof glass, or I *would* shoot them!

Again, great rant, Ernest!

-- Doreen (, February 23, 2002.

Be vigilent ! The problem seems to be that we are vigilent--- we have watched in silence as most of our freedoms were changed from rights to priviledges ! To expand on that thought -a right is free and cannot be challenged and a priviledge is earned or bought and revoked at the will of your oppresser. Now only the wealthy are free and we find ourselves almost to weak to reclaim that which were endowed with. We will have to fight to reclaim them. The masters chains have already shackeled us. When, did you asked ? 1965 would have been about right, but yesterday will have to do !

Doesn't Ernest sound like the old Joel Rosen ? I thought I was reading some of my old papers. Great speech Ernest, keep up the good work.

Everyone knows where I stand, I won't need to repeat it, but my physical resources are somewhat deminished. More or less I have had to acquire Jim Bowie syndrome and prepare for my last conflict within a small enclosure. We do need to fear this regime. They do not abide by any law-- they are their own axis of evil. You have more to fear from King George than Bin Laden. Keep preparing. Keep speaking against the real terrorists of this world. Who is the lesser evil --the one who starves you into your grave or the one that kills you quickly ?

-- Joel Rosen (, February 24, 2002.

Hmmmm, bulletproof glass protecting the cameras....we can paint ball them. We can teach our kids to bubble gum them......I feel a new hobby coming on......

-- Laura (, February 24, 2002.

Tom and Ernest, BRAVO and WELL SAID! You have both spoken what I have felt so many times. You encourage me as sometimes I feel it's already too late. I have yet to see a camara. That probably means I'm not looking in the right places. God save our Republic.

-- John in S. IN (, February 24, 2002.

Well folks, You start shooting up those cameras and you will lose your freedom for sure,can you say jail time. I'll keep my weapons and my freedom-but I'll choose my battles carefully. Daryll

-- Daryll in NW FLA (, February 24, 2002.


You say you are getting afraid. What for? Where have you been for the last 10 years. We stopped using the constitution 10 years ago, a little late to get afraid now. We have been globalized. There is now a one world government, made up mostly by the governed (the slaves), that would be us.

The only goal of the new government is consumption. We now have people all over the planet eating "big Macs" and drinking "pepsi". Consume, consume, consume. While the slaves produce the raw meterials for that which is being consumed.

So if we are slaves, and we are it will be necessary to have us watched. What is the problem?

It is already done, hopefully we enjoyed the esay ride of consumption.

The only thing that is produced by consumption is profit, and the slaves will get none of the profits. Entities like Enron, are here to stay.

-- Ed Copp (OH) (, February 24, 2002.

Ed; Afraid that I have been watching not doing. That is my downfall of past,as many many others also are guilty of. Yes the system is in motion and very well entrenched,to control the human resources, but even the Jews were finally freed! It will take work,it will take pain and it will incur losses,but I am more then determine to fight to guarantee that sounds of FREEDOM and LIBERTY will once again ring through this land. To do so will take expert management and firm leadership.

Ed, their are those of us that must come forward and come forward now! No longer can the average American sit idly by and hope that if they just keep quite that no one will bother them, no sir! We must fight and regain our liberties and freedoms,if not for ourselves than for our children and our children's children. Ask yourself this question as you ponder whether you should fight the indignities offered by the two main forces (Big Brother and Big Marketing) that turned this country into the present wretched state. "WHY DO YOU HATE YOUR CHILDREN?" If you really love them you would have been on guard for them and would have kept our constitutional legacy safe and been able to pass it on to the next generation in the same condition that it was passed on to us.

For those who do not love their children and this land, please step to the left,to where the boxcars are being loaded.

-- TomK(mich) (, February 24, 2002.


Since the post has my name on it directly, I do not hate my children. Just for the record. I do not hate your children either, as a matter of fact I do not really hate anybody.

It is a bit narrow minded of you to think that this situation is "all my fault", don't you think? You do think don't you? You really overestimate my substantial powers if you think I had this kind of control, but you are entitled to your opinion.

-- Ed Copp (OH) (, February 24, 2002.

No, it is not all Ed's fault, niether is it Tom, but collectively as a people--It's all of our faults'. We were taught to work within a system but the system is no longer salvageable and the deck is stacked completely against us. There is no honor, dignity, or justice in the system ! It will take bloodshed to awaken the masses but no one wants to be the first to die. We are to used to falling for the democratic myth that the people made the laws. The people had nothing to do with making any laws. Only 575 people made the laws for 270,000,000 and they were bought by people that didn't give a rat's @#$# about honor,dignity or justice. There sole motive was/is and always will be money and control. Either we fight or we surrender there are no other options. IF YOU WANT IT BACK__YOU"LL HAVE TO TAKE IT BACK !! and you will known as " The Refounding Fathers."

-- Joel Rosen (, February 24, 2002.


Point well stated.

-- Ed Copp (OH) (, February 24, 2002.

ED, I am very sorry for how my last post above turned out. The first paragraph was in response to your question of me concerning what I was afarid of.

The second paragraph was meant to be address to as Joel puts it (the collective.)I was not speaking to you directly. I inadvertently put your name in front of it and I forgot to remove it. So as you can see I do think. And no I do not think this situation is "all your fault". Never intended my post to read that way.

-- TomK(Mich) (, February 24, 2002.

Folks, I DO think it is already too late. That does not excuse us from action. As most of you know, I fully believe that Christ will return and we are living in the last days. Ergo, I believe Bible prophecy regarding this time. HOWEVER!!!! God does not operate on our time table, He waited for me, who is to say He won't wait another 100 years? In the meantime, this evil is running amok because folks became, complacent (?),lazy(?), ignorant(?), comfortable(?), numb(?), apathetic(?) or all of these things.

I don't have any children, but it scares me to consider being an old lady and having some young child ask me why I (we) didn't fight against this. I can't accept that proposition.

The question remains, what will it take to get us to collectively stand up, beat our scrawny chests at the giant and say "NO!"...? I don't think that we are really doing that right now. I know people are waking up, and this is part of it, but if you aren't ready to fight, I don't think you are awake enough yet. And then of course is the "how?"- God help me, I don't want bloodshed....often I don't get what I want, but I really don't want that. I am willing to spill my own, but spilling someone else's is what frightens me. I can say without equivocation "Give me Liberty, or give me Death."...Is anyone else here sick at the stomach over the propostion of actually going to war over this???

-- Doreen (, February 24, 2002.

Going to war will probably be the absolute last resort as it was during the revolution,but as has happen in the past few years minor conflicts will take place until it just boils over. Remember It only takes 1 person to do something outstandingly courageous, as like Rosa Parks refusing to sit at the back of the bus, to get a whole lot of people to join in.

-- TomK(mich) (, February 24, 2002.

IMO the answer is not armed revolution. That the system is corrupt is beyond doubt. Is it corrupt because the 500+ lawmakers who presume to represent us only represent money, as Joel suggested? Was that designed into the system, to give only second thought to the people who they "represent" but the primary duty is to represent money? In practice perhaps so, but in the ideals put forth in the founding documents the emphasis is on individual rights and freedoms.

We need to wise up and cut the head off the snake and we do that by DEMANDING that only legally voting entities can contribute to campaigns. Untill the peoples voices are heard we won't have a republic and that won't happen until we disempower the influence of big money in the system.

-- john (, February 24, 2002.

Thanks guys....I think actual war is a man thing, I don't have the upper body strength!! Really I LOVE peace, I really want peace, but not through oppression, but through agreement and the rule of law.

So John, HOW do we cut off the head of the serpent? That the time for acting is here is undeniable, but we must have a plan, and we must have pure motive.

-- Doreen (, February 24, 2002.

Doreen: You cut the head off the serpent by removing the necessity for BIG MONEY to get elected. Without the influence of big money the peoples voices will be more likely to be heard.

If the ability to contribute huge amounts of money to your favorite candidates, directly or indirectly, is equated to free speech, the more money you have to "contribute" the loader your voice is. The supreme court has decreed in it's ifinite wisdom that corporations are to be considered to be people regarding "free speech". If you gotta pay for it, it ain't free speech.

Here's a few things to consider when cutting off the head of the serpent.

1- a constitutional amendment that would require that only eligible voters could contribute to campaigns.

2- Mandate 3-6 debates for presidential candidates. If a candidate has met the requirements to be on a ballot they should be allowed in the debate. Do something similar for the "lessor" candidates.

3- Mandate that during election seasons the media networks provide free airtime for the candidates as a condition for the renewal of their broadcasting license. IT is OUR airwaves the "rent". We should be able to set the conditions.

4- maximum campaign contribution $1000. No exceptions.

And to head those off at the pass so to speak this is about returning the government to the people---all the people. Its not about taking money from the wealthy that they earned legitimately. Its about taking away their bullhorn that drowns out the voices of the "commoners".

ONLY when the commonweal of the people becomes the entire focus of the government will the promise of the American ideal become a reality. Assuring the commonweal of the people does not equate to handouts or entitlements. It does equate to aspiring to live up to the SPIRIT of America.

Untill then its the government and its governed serving the monied masters. That the servents benefit at all from the corporate largess is almost an afterthought.

Untill something like this has been given a fair trial and experienced we haven't really given the American ideal a real chance. Thats my opinion.

-- john (, February 24, 2002.

Doreen: I meant to mention this. You've mentioned on another post recently how "they" divide us. I completely agree with the divisiveness thats so prevalant in todays society but how did "we" allow them to divide us? What stands in the way of us being a more united people with a shared vision for America and what it can be?

We NEED to find common ground, the "left" and the "right". I believe that common ground will be found in our shared humaness and the willingness of each side to listen to the other is a prerequisite. If we allow doctrinal differences to divide us, "they" win. We have to focus on the things that connect us, not the things that divide us.

The constitution, like any other document, is subject to interpretation. Any of us can study it and the founding fathers till hell freezes over but there will still be division because each side will insist their view is correct. You could find a zillion experts to support a "conservative" interpretation and I suspect I could find an equal number of equally qualified experts to support a more "leftist" interpretation.

Considering this its seems incumbent on us to find another way. Many of the folks on this board use the bible to find direction and guidance. Despite what you may think to the contrary I don't have any problem with that at all. I don't use the bible exclusively to find direction, but what does it matter in the end if the direction is the same? Is the direction a Hindu finds in the Gita, the Vedas etc. actually different from that of a Christian for example if the directions to the same destination is the same? I think not! Because we share a common humaness, with the same requirements for survival, the same desires for our offspring etc.

I bring this up, not to start a fight or to cause trouble, but offer it as merely an example of the things that divide us.

-- john (, February 24, 2002.

Your point is taken, Doreen. What I'm trying to say is that if we play our cards right, Freedom and Safety need not be mutually exclusive, though Safety may have to be given up for the time being.

Living in constant fear of attack is not my idea of Freedom, whether those attacks come directly (some whacko flying a plane into my house) or indirectly (people taking away rights behind my back and instituting a Police State). A life of constant fear is NOT freedom, it is living in a prison of the worst kind, a prison without bars.

In my view, freedom means the ablility to pursue and defend one's dreams. The current status quo in the world is inimical to dreams, so much so that many in our society dare NOT to dream, for fear of having those dreams dashed and feeling the inevitable anguish that follows.

When one's freedoms and dreams are under attack and is forced to live in fear, the offending element should be removed, even if it means forgoing safety TEMPORARILY.

The Ideal World is the world described at the end of Revelation, a world where "no man shall make another tremble".

-- Nexar (, February 25, 2002.

Many of you have expressed my thoughts on this, so I won't go into my own opinions. But it sure is nice to hear what has been kicking around my brain and heart for quite a while. Thank all of you for expressing what you have; this thread / rant is kickin'!! Something that should be printed out and sent to our local congressman, who should be reminded just who their constituents are.

-- j. r. guerra in s. tx. (, February 25, 2002.

Ernest, wonderful good sense, as usual!

-- Melissa in SE Ohio (, February 25, 2002.

Great post Nexar!

-- john (, February 25, 2002.

All good suggestions John. Also how about a flat tax with everyone and every corporation paying 15% of their income. You make $10,000 you pay $1,500 you make $1,000,000 you pay $150,000.

Nexar,"no man shall make another tremble" indeed a very ideal world.

-- TomK(mich) (, February 26, 2002.

Tom: In general I like the flat tax idea but with one modification. That is that there be a fixed housing allowance. Just for example say the first $5000. is exempt from any taxes at all. For those in the lower income brackets they wouldn't have to pay taxes on the rent money top of trying to put a roof over their head. The $5000 is just a number, pulled outta the air. On the other hand for those with the $1,000,000 McMansions the taxes avoided on the first $5000 would be the cost of a lavish vacation.

-- john (, February 26, 2002.

I rather like the idea of a 'consumption' tax to replace income tax. Such taxes exist in the form of sales, GST and VAT but many are mis- applied or so complex as to defeat the purpose of the tax.

A consumption tax should be a flat rate over everything bought or sold, no exceptions, no complex rules to be avoided, evaded or just argued over. No room for tax lawyers etc etc. Just a low rate comsumption tax would capture much more than a higher rate income tax. The problem with income tax is that a great many people manage to avoid it and the administration is a considerable burden.

Coupled with this should be a modest 'citizens share', this is a modest amount paid to each citizen by right of birth. This figure should be enough for modest survival. If someone want's to be an artist in a garret they can. If a young mother wishes to raise her children alone she can do so without begging.

-- john hill (, February 27, 2002.

John Hill, a consumption tax or national sales tax would work also,but they would have to do away with the income tax before I would let them go with a consumption tax. A flat tax would only be as hard to administer as we would make it. And with congresses past record they would screw it up royal.

as for a "citizen share" I for one do not think I could go for that.

-- TomK(mich) (, February 27, 2002.

I've thot about the national sales tax too. It seems to me that alot of administration could be eliminated that way.

I've also thot about the guaranteed minimum income thing. It'd be equal to the amount of the official "poverty level". One advantage with that would be that it would eliminate the need for SS, disability, welfare etc.

-- john (, February 27, 2002.

TomK, we sort of went half way with the consumption tax and income tax simplification some years ago. There is a 12.5% 'goods and services' tax (GST) on everything you buy and don't pass on to someone else, in this country (New Zealand) GST is on everything which makes administration easy although some folks say it is unfair to visitors to the country. My income tax used to be over 50% and I had sheets and sheets of paper to fill in each year even though I was an uncomplicated wage/salary earner at the time, now my rate is half that and I don't even make an annual return. The guy who introduced the GST to NZ wanted to set a flat income tax rate (22%) but he failed on that one and we now have just two levels.

Australia introduced GST more recently but it went all wrong there, at least initially. There were so many rules attached it was initially almost unworkable, I don't know about now.

The universal allowance I view like this: The extra dollar I have to put in is balanced out by the dollar I get in my allowance. Every welfare recepient would get about the same as they do now and because there is almost no administration there is no administration overhead, which is something I presently pay for.

-- john hill (, February 27, 2002.

I hate socialism in any form and find it to be a REAL pain in the neck to even talk about. How about we have a monetary system based on something of actual value so that there is very, very little inflation? How about people who are able MUST work and delusions don't get pandered to? And for those who can't work, the care should not come from a faceless bureacaracy with the goal of destroying families and creating a bunch of statist automatons who think they are OWED food and a roof and clothing, but from local churches and the county or city. Life has no guarantees, being hungry is a motivtor to work. The dole in England isn't doing such a grand job at creating a utopian society, is it?

The provision in the Constituion for taxation is sufficient. All the money given to the IRS has absolutely ZERO to do with any social program. It doesn't even stay in our country, folks.

John Hill, I appreciate the fact that you aren't from here, so you may not be as familiar with the ideas/ideals of America, but to be honest, I can think of no worse thing to do than to give someone just enough money to avoid working. Sounds like a complete recipe for disaster.

-- Doreen (, February 28, 2002.

Doreen, you missed my point.

In your second sentence you mentioned compelling those who can work to work and, I assume, excusing those who cant, right there you have a huge overhead in the administration, you have created a social welfare bureaucracy which has to be paid for by those who do work.

Incidently, compelling able bodied citizens to work and putting the rest into 'suitable' care is I believe a characteristic of Stalinist states.

-- john hill (, February 28, 2002.

Doreen, just another one, in what form does IRS collected funds leave your country?

-- john hill (, February 28, 2002.

Well the point seems o have been missed yet again!lol. See, if the care for people who are literally unable to work comes from those RIGHT around them and they know it, there will be much, much less of the fraud and the simple laziness and stupidity that comes from a statist welfare system. There ARE some people who simply cannot work any longer, or even ever. This isn't a burden, it is a chance to care for those who are literally unable to care for themselves, not too lazy to get out of bed, or too deluded to operate in reality. local organizations have much better control and responsibility than huge bureaucracies do, don't you agree?

Secondly, here's how the income tax goes:

John Taxpayer writes check to IRS...

IRS gives check to Federal Reserve...

Federal Reserve transfers funds to IMF...which is a UN organization.

I understand that the portion that goes to SS is taken out from the Fed and sent to the SSA. That is the only part that stays here.

-- Doreen (, February 28, 2002.

Ok Doreen, I will just add such social issues to the small list of subjects that I just know we will never agree on. :)

I do note that you have a concern that I don't, and that is the relationship between central and local government. In this society local government does not do much except paint white lines on the road (slight exageration) while central government is still relatively approachable, just last week I received an answer to a personal enquiry I made to one of our cabinet ministers, he actually signed the letter too! I used my boy scout skills to determine that the signature was put on by pen and not any trick of a laser printer.

Now excuse me while I go and learn something about the IMF!

-- john hill (, February 28, 2002.

Wow, people are waking up to king dubya, eh? Great.

John,-- john (,--I like your proposition on campaign contribution limits, and free air time for candidates. But I think the candidates need to qualify for free air time by, perhaps, personally gathering a certain number of signatures of support. Otherwise, we'll likely get 1000's of candidates, and there won't be time enough to even listen to all the debates! I also agree with your ideas on minimum income. George McGovern proposed that back in the sixties (?), and I (a flaming liberal at the time) almost fell over laughing! Bad idea!

Just to play devil's advocate, though, having a minimum guaranteed income WOULD cut a lot of overhead costs, and I've witnessed some government social programs where the overhead is pretty near the entire cost. Doreen, I agree with you about people needing help getting it from a churcn, or service organization instead of from government. On some levels. On other levels, it seems that would force all the public spirited people to carry far more than their share; in other words, you, as a church goer, might have to give five times as much as you do now, because of all of us heathens who refuse to help out. I don't know what the ratio of givers vs takers in this country is, but I know in "the old days" before welfare type benefits, there were lots more hungry children. At least according to my dad; I wasn't around back then.

Are you seriously calling for replacing the Constitution with the Bible? Or using the Bible as the last word for interpreting the Constitution? Tell me I misunderstood! King George W is already trying to substitute the Bible for the Constitution, and this scares me as much as all the other freedom takings.

Now, how do we get the Supreme Court to go along? It seems to me that as long as this body claims that ideas like yours violate "free speech" we're screwed. Free speech my ass; since when are bribery, payola and gerrymandering "free speech"?

-- joj (jump@off.c), March 01, 2002.

BTW, count me out on your call to arms. If we can't even get the average couch potato to vote, call or write his representatives, attend town hall meetings, who's going to show up for your war? Better eliminate the telly first, to get people off their butts!

-- joj (jump@off.c), March 01, 2002.

Joe, I am rather certain you have misunderstood. And I am simply guessing that you are talking to me in your query. The principles outlined in the Constitution are the absolute best that any government run by man may possibly operate under.

There is only one theocracy that I would live under and that is not going to happen until every single person on this planet knows exactly who God is. So, not too worry, I have no desire for a theocracy implemented by man, however the nation was indeed founded by religious nuts with guns, and I still fit that profile.:).... As for all of this taxation talk, I honestly find it irrelevant to the insanity we are currently facing. It's just a tiny facet. Just my opinion.

-- Doreen (, March 02, 2002.

"The principles outlined in the Constitution are the absolute best that any government run by man may possibly operate under."

That's a pretty bold statement if you ask me.

While I agree that the Constitution is the best thing we've had going TO DATE, saying that it's the absolute best we can possibly do, EVER, is a different matter entirely.

-- Nexar (, March 07, 2002.

"BTW, count me out on your call to arms. If we can't even get the average couch potato to vote, call or write his representatives, attend town hall meetings, who's going to show up for your war? Better eliminate the telly first, to get people off their butts!"

Very true. Here's a statement from a certain Minnesota governor that backs this up.

"People aren't going to change if they are fat, sassy, and happy." - Gov. Jesse Ventura

I'm afraid the idea of revolutions isn't going to go over to well in the near future. There are too many numbskulls out there.

-- Nexar (, March 07, 2002.

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