After reading the different posts on some of my threads and others,it looks to me that we very well might be looking at a N-ID card and possibly a chip for new born babies within the next few years.Especially if we get hit again. If it came down to being forced to get a National ID and or chip,for you or your kids,what would you do? How far would you go to avoid doing so?

We all, I think, have to really consider this question, especially those with children,as it seems that they would go after them first.

After all if it comes and you could not work,or buy without it,I know most people here are not 100% self-reliant,alot are not even 50%,so having to get a N-ID card to work and buy, would be a major decision.

I for one just do not know. I am probably 2 to 3 years away from no debt, except for everyday living expenses. I just paid off as of today our 2 vehicles, but I am still not there.

-- TomK(mich) (tjk@cac.net), February 27, 2002

Answers

I know of no one who is 100% self-reliant. Many think they are close, but many don't think about things that they need every day. Gasoline, foodstuffs not on the homestead, clothing, things to repair and maintain the items we have. Things they cannot make themselves or barter for. You probably can think of many more than I can. You know what I mean.

If this thing really occurs people of like mind will have to band together for their common good. It will be a necessity to survive. I think of many groups who have been telling us this for years, and were laughed at and attacked for their beliefs. (Militias of example) I don't want to get into their politics, but their idea of getting as self sufficent as possible will serve them well if this does indeed happen.

This will be like Y2K preparations again, but with a different cause. We all had practice for that, so get ready as best you can in your own situation.

Tom you are right to get everything paid off ASAP. Nothing will drag a person down faster than unemployment (assuming you do not get your card etc.) while trying to make house payments.

I am more worried about the grand-kids than I am for myself. They are still very vulnerable due to their age.

I am still optimistic that God will see us through on this one, as he has so many times in the past.

Talk to you later.

-- Bob in WI (bjwick@hotmail.com), February 27, 2002.

I would instantly become a "religious objector" and be the first test case to sue the governemnt for violating my rights to freedom of religion. If that didn't work, I would immediately establish a nice underground network of like-minded people, and I don't think I would have to look too hard to find them. We are blessed in being debt- free....so there are truly few things we need from the outside world. We could do without gasoline, electricity, telephones, if we really HAD to (witness the Old Order Amish)..now that I think of it, we'd probably zip on back to PA and live with our Amish buddies. If all that failed, I guess we'd be getting those proverbial three meals and a cot in prison somewhere. No way, ever, will we submit to a forced "chip" ID in this lifetime.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), February 28, 2002.

i refuse to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me

-- DB Cooper (somewhere@sasquatch.net), February 28, 2002.

Lesley, the Verichip folks already have a contract with LA prisons to implant the prisoners....sorry;(. First the prisoners will get it- all 6.5 million...thanks to the War on Drugs, which is a whole nother giant ball of wax and lies. It's been quite successful too. More drugs are here than when they declared the war. I suspect the same will occur with the "war" on terror.

Myself, I will go so far as to say the only implant I will be taking is going to have lead in it. Nat'l ID card with biometrics et all...just won't get one. I resent being treated like so many types of livestock. It's beyond my ken. I mean, just think about a birth certificate, if you are standing there talking to someone, isn't it obvious that you were born? And if you are laying on the ground with no pulse, no breathing and you are kind of grey looking and quite cold, isn't it obvious that you are dead? Does a piece of paper change reality?

Our parents and grandparents made a grave mistake when they decided that they and we would take the SS#. This entire system is about control and power over individuals. We can't possibly be free while being tracked from the cradle to the grave. WHY would anyone want to do this anyway?

In my opinion, we are going to need a somewhat organized but loose underground, and it will be a matter of life or death. The immediate future does not look rosy. Get your stuff in order as well as you can, and rely on God to take care of what you can't.

I'm about where you are, Tom. But the number of years of debt are very dependent upon where the economy is...ie. There is no GUARANTEE of income. I own this place and my car outright but have business debt (lots!) and some other property I am paying off. We shall see....

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), February 28, 2002.

At the "house of hoot" NO chips will be received! No way, No how! I figger we're so close to the rapture of the church and then the tribulation that it may very well be the starting of the time of sorrows. We are more blessed than some because we live in the country and could be self sufficient where others cannot just yet. I am not say'n it would be easy but that's ok. Nothing I've ever achieved has been easy but still it's within reach for us.

So--if'n they say I have to have it then they can just keep it. [ I like Johns answer! Wonder how snakes and turtles would survive with that "chip"? ] We REFUSE to be a part of their little elite group of submissive puppets.

old hoot. Matt.24:44

-- old hoot gibson (hoot@pcinetwork.com), February 28, 2002.

I would try eating foods that raised my iron and mineral content to create interferance for the readers.

-- nochips please (magnetic@personality.com), February 28, 2002.

I like that Doreen, Birth certificates and death certificates have always in my opinion been pretty stupid. I liked the old days when all they did was record your name in the family bible or journal along with the date. I mean what else do you really need.

I also agree that organization is needed even if a loose club type. Going though my Paul Revere Bio. there were, just before Lexington and Concord took place, nine different clubs/assocications that him and others belonged to that were involed in the tea party and such.

-- TomK(mich) (tjk@cac.net), February 28, 2002.

Lesley, The "objector" idea sounds good....But what court? The court controlled by the despot? As they laugh at you and drag you away to the *camp*

Tom an item I think about is...real, fresh, milk!

will I need a card for that? .......oh no...

-- Jim-mi (hartalteng@voyager.net), February 28, 2002.

First "they" would have to find me. THEN, "they" would have to discover how good my aim is on most days.....then "they" would have to decide if it was worth the effort..LOL....

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), February 28, 2002.

Lesley....(:smiles:)!!!

Jim-mi, grow your own milk! Get a couple of goats. They'll keep youo in milk and you won't have to give any thought to the card carriers....but then there is the grain issue. I still don't have that figured out. Hoping for a farmer with a need to sell some...barter! For milk, perhaps!

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), March 01, 2002.

Funny you should bring up goats Doreen. As I looked at my beautiful registered herd today I began to question just how secure I really am. (forgive the tad dose of paranoia here) O.k. so now all breeding stock for goats has to be "tracked" because of some disease (scabies) that is not even found in goats in this country. I believe that today is the date (perhaps I am a month ahead) that it becomes illegal for me to sell breeding stock with out the tag or tattoo (mark?) So.........what does that mean???? By law every single milk goat that is moved in this country is supposed to be trackable. I find that rather scary since it is us underground type folks that most want to be NOT NOTICED. But then, here we all are discussing it on an open forum. LOL, we really are a little wacky!!!!

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), March 01, 2002.

Last night on shortwave the discussions on the Verichip finally convinced me--if the Verichip and a national ID is not the Mark of the Beast it might as well be. That is, the mark can't be any worse or more invasive or total. America has be getting unfreer and unfreer and there doesn't seem to be any hope this trend will stop. Look at the Model States Health Policy Act or the Patriot Law. These are so staggerinly evil and against the Constitution, more than any other event in recent history these new laws truly make the struggle to restore our freedoms seem hopeless.

God bless Tom and Ernest and Doreen for contending for the truth. Bless Joel and Lesley for their attitude, ludicrously ineffectual as their resistance might be to the tanks of Tienneman Square and Waco. My Creek and Cherokee and poor white ancestors all fought for the right of the South to be free from federal tyrany. Just as their worlds were all destroyed and have ended, I am afraid we are the last generation of Americans who will remember any vestige of freedom. Down here in Alabama when I was a little boy we used to say on signs and bumper stickers,"The South will rise again." I doubt a schoolchild today would even know what that statement referred to. Just last year, Georgia changed its state flag to take the Confederate emblem off of it.

Fifty years ago I was born in Gadsden, Alabama beside the Coosa River in the Holy Name of Jesus Hospital. Today that hospital is still there but it is called Riverside Medical Center. It seems that all of America has lost its soul. The Verichip and the National ID seems like the last step in this long, sad, horrible process. Our compliance with the destruction of the Constitution has to stop somewhere. Each of us must make our peace with God and do as our conscience and truest heart bids us.

"Oh I wish I was in the Land of Cotton, old times there are not forgotton, look away, look away, look away Dixieland."

-- Rags (nobody@nowhere.org), March 01, 2002.

Aw...God Bless you, Rags. I love your "crotcetiness"!

Diane, the scrapie program has some exceptions to it. Show goats, and goats in contact with sheep MUST have the tag. Goats never in contact with sheep don't need it. At least according to the paperwork I received. Anyway, call me crazy, but I am so tired of the barrage of laws on everything, that if I KNOW I won't harm anyone, frankly, I don't care what the law is anymore. It's too crazy and if someone wants to blast you they will anyway.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), March 01, 2002.

Are any of you willing to also give up your computers, phones, ham radios, etc.? How far in the past do you want to live? Would you leave the US for a true wilderness in some other country?

I am not being flip here, but being completely self-sufficient (are you going to mine your own ore, etc.?) is not truly possible in this day and age, not if you want any modern conveniences. And would you want your children to live this way? Just a thought.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 01, 2002.

scrapies.....not scabies :>( I will read my paperwork again Doreen, but that was not my understanding.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), March 01, 2002.

GT, I guess you aren't getting it. There is no going back in time. As for giving up conveniences, there isn't going to be any choice if you refuse to take the Card or the Chip. It's a Brave New World. Just try to open a bank account now while standing on your right to not use an SS#. It's a treat. I had to wait three extra weeks for my phone because I refuse to give an SS#....but hey, that isn't a national ID. Brother. I'll give up everything including my life to resist this being implented/implanted on/in me, thank you very much.

And it's supposed to be chrotchetiness- sheesh....sorry.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), March 01, 2002.

The chip is not any better way of proof of ID then a drivers license.A chip can be altered or phoney chips can be made.It is just a matter of time before a terrorist group with money learns how they work and how to beat them.It is only the law abiding SHEEP who will be herded with this new technology.It will be more of a marketing tool,monitoring your buying habits so corporations can get a better grip on the money you spend.

-- SM Steve (unreal@msn.com), March 01, 2002.

Doreen, I am NOT in favor of a chip or National ID card.

A universal driver's license might be a better thing from a law enforcement perspective. My point is that unless you are willing to perhaps live like the Amish, you are going to be part of the national database whether you like it or not, every time you want to do something as part of society. You have a phone, people can tap it, you have a bank account, lots of people have access to it. You own any property, that information is available to the public. People can keep track of where you go and what you post on the web. You have an informal barter group, well, people will always talk. No person is an island.

Now, whether Joe Sixpack is going to be interesting enough to do this on a regular basis to, that's another question altogether, and perhaps the real question here. I'm sure there are enough criminals to worry about without worrying about what Mr. Sixpack had for dinner last night.

All I'm saying is that it will be a tradeoff between convenience and necessities. Some don't have credit cards because their purchases can be tracked, others don't mind that because of the convenience of not having to carry cash. I don't shop at places that want me to leave my fanny pack (especially since they would let me walk in if I carried a purse of the same size) at the front desk, because I don't like being assumed to be a shoplifter before I walk in, although I don't mind letting someone look at it on the way out (as long as there is a sign clearly posted saying this might happen), because, sad to say, shoplifting is a problem. One issue with me is that I might need something in my pack while I am in the store (like a clean diaper), and I wouldn't have it.

One concern I do have is how this database will protect against identity theft. The current system now (the three credit bureaus, for the most part) is seriously flawed--it can take years to repair credit damaged by identity theft.

Two sides to everything, maybe.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 01, 2002.

Ok so what happens when you run out of grain to feed the critters?? Another foot of snow is predicted for the next couple of days so the critters sure can't go feed in the in field.... But it sounded good Doreen.......

-- Jim-mi (hartalteng@voyager.net), March 01, 2002.

Jim, a good quality milk goat can produce milk on just a decent hay, just not as much. We always keep a very large supply of feed in store in the winter when it won't go bad, so could easily wean them down to hay over a period of time.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), March 01, 2002.

Diane, Hope this doesn't sound stupid [I don't have any critters] but can you store enough to overwinter? Winters here can be kind of long!

Like somebody said above ...there's just some things that we would like but don't/can't produce ourselves!....even tho we want to be dam independent.......Do I want to be tied down to milking...how ever often you do?........Good question!

-- Jim-mi (hartalteng@voyager.net), March 01, 2002.

I guess the question whould be, "What price would you pay for liberty?" My answer would be what is wrong with living like the Amish do in return for freedom? GT, material things such as computers, telephones, cars, refrigerators, Liz Clairborne dresses are all nice but not necessary. Folks did quite nicely without any of these things for a few thousand years. I would willingly go back to outhouses and no central air (GASP) if it meant that OR having a chip implanted in MY body by the government. I would hope to God that my children were not so blinded by the wish for comfort that they would trade their liberty for mere modern conveniences. Out of our 5, two would unfortunately and 3 most definetly would not. As far as this being a public declaration of my personal intent to ignore the government..ah well...so be it and I take the consequences. This is MY country, paid for by the blood of MY ancestors; Cherokees, English, French Canadian, Irish, before 1776 as well as after; MY ancestors fought for the Confederacy as well as the Union. MY ancestors went through the living hell of World Wars 1 and 2 and Korea.Every day for his entire life, my grandfather raised the American flag with a great deal of pride in the personal sacrifices made by himself and others to KEEP this a nation of liberty. To turn my back on the gift of liberty from my ancestors and all others who formed this nation for the paltry excuse of maintaining creature comforts would be the epitome of selfishness. In 1878, my Great Grandfather was the harbor master for Boston. One of his jobs was to see to it that all ships coming into Boston harbor were escorted by a pilot boat. One day, his superior informed him that since the British Ambassador and his staff would be sailing into the harbor, the pilot boat should fly the Union Jack out of respect, and NOT the American flag. When my Great- grandfather objected, he was told he would be fired if he did not comply. At that time, he had 11 children at home to support. His response was to immediately turn and go to his pilot boat..he took the American flag down and went home. The day the British sailed into Boston harbor accompanied by the new harbor master under the Union Jack flag, my great-grandfather could be seen standing on top of the old fort at Castle Island furiously waving the American flag from a 15 foot pole. He wrote in his journal that the years of poverty which followed were well worth the decision to put his country first and his family second! What a guy! BTW, that flag still flies over the lawn of my third cousin in California. Either you have the seed of liberty so firmly implanted in your soul that you would sacrifice all for it, or you don't.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), March 02, 2002.

Lesley, my friend...THANK YOU!!!! and a great big AMEN! Either you have it, or you don't.Perfect.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), March 02, 2002.

I am with Lesley on this one......we are prepared here to hunker down and live in the woods if we have to. Jim, I guess if you have to ask that question, no answer I give you will be sufficient. sheesh

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), March 02, 2002.

Just because a person disagrees with something does not make them any less a patriot. I just don't like this "throwing the baby out with the bath water" attitude that some people seem to have.

As to a chip, there might (mind you, I said, might) be a limited use for it. If you are a single old person taking care of a spouse or sibling with Alzheimer's, and you can't afford respite or daycare or a nursing home and and have no one to spell you off, a chip with a GPS could mean the difference between life and death for the person who wanders off into the cold while the caregiver falls asleep from sheer exhaustion. The stories about people wandering off and being found dead from exposure within a mile of their home are heartbreaking. In nursing homes today, patients prone to wandering wear an alarm that sounds when they open an exit, but they can always remove it. For general medical use, I don't think they would be so great, especially since I don't think we will have "a scanner in every home" to read the info. A Medic- Alert bracelet is still far more useful to tell a Good Samaritan that a person is epileptic (that's why they're having a seziure) or a person with a good first aid kit and knowledge who comes across them in the wilderness that they are allergic to this or that.

Some are also forgetting that should you go back and live like the Amish, or even more primitively, do you really think you can just "disappear" off the radar in even today's society, never mind the future? Even if debt free, there is a public record that you own your property, etc. People will know where you are, unless you essentially become homeless and wander about, and even then, since there is no such thing as unclaimed land (all land is owned by someone), someone will report tresspass or whatever. Sure, 200 years ago, you could disappear and no one would care (because there was no technology of any significance to find you), but today at best you would have an illusion of invisibility, no more. Aerial surveillance is available today that destroys the illusion of privacy.

For many the computer/internet has replaced other things as a "necessary" (in the sense of useful) tool. Who's going to fix the equipment if you're busy just surviving? Totally different skill sets required to milk cows or fix hardware/software and who are you going to sacrifice to the awful world out there (they are not going to be able to keep up at the homestead because they won't have access to anything) so you can keep your computer (and maybe your solar power system along with other systems) running?

Not to mention, even if you could totally cut yourself off from society, how many generations will it be before your children's children sink into so primitive a state that they cannot fight back? Two, three? Every generation loses something from the generation before (as we all bemoan the lack of manners in today's children for example). Books wear out, computers wear out, people die and cannot pass on the old traditions. Just something to think about.

Again, I don't like to say that anything is automatically "bad" before I can weigh both the good points and bad points of something. I do enjoy the debate here.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 02, 2002.

GT, perhaps this will help explain my definite throwing of the baby out with the bathwater mentality when it comes to this subject; there is no government on the face of this earth who is going to force me to accept an implanted device in my body for any reason at any time. I am strictly speaking of myself here..if other folks want to do that, at least now they are "FREE" to do so. IMHO there is not a single "thing" which I need badly enough to have a chip in my body to pay for it. I see absolutely zero good reasons for me to allow a chip in my body for the governments' pleasure. I would give up friends, family, land, and my life if it had to come to that, so for me, there is no discussion..only an adamant stance against the very concept.Obviously, I offended you and for that, I apologize. I was not stating what YOU should believe, but what I believe..part of what I believe is that if a person doesn't "get" the idea of being tagged by the government as inherently evil, nothing I may ever say will convince them otherwise.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), March 02, 2002.

I think you folks are approaching the moment of decision--welcome !!! It is nice to have company. I'll write somemore when I return from Parris Isle.

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), March 02, 2002.

AMEN Lesley, AMEN!!!

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), March 02, 2002.

Hi Lesley, I guess we're looking at it from 'way different angles. And, no, I don't think I will change anyone's mind either. I have never thought of this particular issue as a religious issue, ever, so to me this is not an inherently evil thing. To me, abortion and murder are inherently evil, but not an ID card (the chip is far more offensive to me than the card, since most of us already carry a driver's license or state ID) per se. Even in colonial times and before, there were always authentication papers (seals, etc.) to prove identity, where it mattered that you were who you said you were. Out on a jog with the dog, most people don't carry ID, or at best, only a copy of it, not the original. Cashing a check, or trying to pass yourself off as someone else, yes, ID matters.

I also think that, in the true Spirit of The American Way, an internal chip would be so tied up in lawsuits from every group imaginable that we probably won't see it. (grin) And I don't see Americans EVER giving up their right to sue over something they don't like....

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 03, 2002.

I am not opposed to a national ID card, although I think it is superfluous and only good for lining somebody's pockets with cash...right now, today, if I wanted to disappear from the government, all I need do is rip up my drivers license and my social secrity card and hit the proverbial road. There are plenty of jobs in this country which pay under the table..there are plenty of cheap places to live, including a pup tent in a national forest in the South....there are plenty of illegal sites on the internet to purchase several false IDs if one wants to zip around under a different name..this is a wonderful country for going missing in. I do not believe that an implanted chip is the "mark of the beast", just a nice forerunner for it. The bible says folks will be commanded to WORSHIP the beast and receive his mark in order to buy and sell. When there are two prophets preaching non-stop in Jerusalem, I will perk up my ears and watch for the beast-thing....my adamant opposal to an implanted chip is that once it is done, any telstar sattilite can find anybody, anywhere and anytime..it takes away my freedom to be "lost" in society....kind of like a Lojak person locater system. Can you imagine the power of government with something like that? What if I wanted to go to a militia meeting in Wisconsin? All the government would have to do is to scan the folks sitting in the building and then scoop everyone up at their leisure..The constitution affords the citizens the right to overthrow a corrupt government..where is the freedom to meet to discuss a corrupt government if all are watched by the powers that be? Picture the early American patriots with a chip implanted by King George..we would all still be under England for sure..the Sons of Liberty did not advertise for members..the Boston tea Party was accomplished in secret plannings and disguises, etc. etc...when folks give the government unlimited access and power, the result is ALWAYS dictatorship...trading safety for lack of freedom to go about the country un-monitored smacks of pre-world war 2 Germany. Hitler would have been overjoyed at the very idea of a chip..would have made his agenda so much easier.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), March 04, 2002.

Sorry if somebody alread said this, but I'm short of time today, and can't read all the posts right now.

My point is that, even if a person withdraws from mainstream society, it will likely not preserve their freedoms. If 90+ percent of the country, or the world for that matter, buy into the chip id business, and big brother ascends to the ultimate power, why would he kindly choose to let the ones who withdrew live in peace? Once he's in control, he's in control.

Fight the chips, fight electronic funds transfers, and fight spy cameras. Legally, I hope.

-- joj (jump@off.c), March 04, 2002.

What I feel is not looked at is the potential the government has on forcing you to take the chip. They can either implant you while using a variety of services, or refuse you from accessing those services. It can be anything- trip to the doc or dentist, trip to the ER, going to jail, using your bank accounts, accessing certain government (city, county, state, or federal) facilities (including DMV and parks/forests etc.), or your kid going to school or college.

Amazing how society is mirroring sci-fi. Think of the feds as the Borg. It won't be long until they can implant a chip in you on the street.

And there is nothing you can do about it.

-- not this time.... (html5lover@yahoo.com), March 05, 2002.

not this time; I think the biggest thing in the future will be the haves and have nots. I think the government and I would say corporations also will be able to keep the average person from buying,selling,going,etc. whether a chip or some other ID, the ones with bucks will have alot more access to things then the ones who don't have the bucks and I'm afraid the first thing to be tested will be health insurance.

-- TomK(mich) (tjk@cac.net), March 05, 2002.

Interesting point, TomK. I think though the best chance we have as a country for decent health insurance is to have it voted on (in other words, the baby boomers and others who actually vote need to get on the horn) by our representatives, or tied up in lawsuits.

I look at the Nat ID and the chip (no, I don't want one), as simply the next page in progress, just like space flight. I just don't see Joe Sixpack being a target for government surveillance every day--he just wouldn't warrant it.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 05, 2002.

The original premise is suspect. If it came down to having an alien tatoo on your ass would you suspect the whoever wanted you to have one to start with wanted control? Do you think that would get past us unbelievers? Have you seen UN troops in Texas yet? Get a grip.

-- Dennis (thewestwood@yahoo.com), April 16, 2002.

Ummm, Czech, German, Russian, Chinese visiting Ft. Hood, Mexican army crossing border and pointing weapons at our Border Patrol. Oh, yeah, I got a grip. On a high caliber tool.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), April 21, 2002.

Ah Oh! What have the Czech's done now?

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), April 21, 2002.