Potential things to come??

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I must say I am posting this article with a bit of trepidation. I am not now, nor have I ever been a racist......quite the contrary. In this area I would most likely have the most liberal leaning in the other direction. That said, there were little words in this article that I found very disturbing. "American extremists". IMO the seeds are being planted, ever so slowly, to start aiming at the citizentry in this war on terror. While I was at my daughter's caring for her children after our newest grandchildren I saw it beginning on T.V. (we don't have t.v. in our home) I deplore drugs and drug use, but noticed that suddenly drug users were being lumped with terrorists in the anti drug ads. So, least any one think I am a racist or would be calling anyone here a racist.......with that disclaimer I post this.

Supremacist ties to al Qaeda suspected Southern Poverty Law Center sees potential for alliance Cox News Service

ATLANTA _ American extremist groups have established ties with radical Muslim organizations including al Qaeda, a new study says.

White supremacist and Arab militant groups have "very real" connections, says the study by the Southern Poverty Law Center, although researchers found no evidence the groups are conducting joint operations.

"We have not uncovered a plot, but there is a very real potential for an alliance between American extremists and Muslim extremists that has some real potential for future trouble," said Mark Potok, editor of the center's Intelligence Report.

The three-month study to be released Tuesday documents contacts between supremacist and Muslim groups since World War II, including meetings in Atlanta, Potok said.

Contacts between European and Middle East extremist groups are more sophisticated, but Potok said communication between American and Muslim radical groups steadily increased in the 1990s.

Cooperation between American and foreign radical groups is a concern, Potok said, because domestic terrorists might evade law enforcement efforts targeted at Middle Eastern nationals. Well-funded Arab groups could begin funding domestic terrorists to sidestep security, he said.

"They could provide the answer to one of the great problems of the American radical right, that of funding," Potok said.

"A good example of that is that (convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy) McVeigh spent the better part of a year putting together a mere $10,000 to build his bomb. If he had been connected to well-funded Muslim extremists, you can imagine he could have produced even more havoc."

Federal officials say they have evidence that neo-Nazis, white supremacists and Black Muslim factions have reached out to foreign terrorists whose similar hatred for both Israel and the U.S. government might make them natural allies.

Leaders of white and non-white extremist groups have had ongoing contact for more than 40 years, Potok said.

In 1961, Nation of Islam founder Elijah Muhammad met with Ku Klux Klan leaders at Magnolia Hall in Atlanta. The leaders agreed to cooperate in support of common beliefs that blacks and whites should stay separate.

The next year, Muhammad invited American Nazi Party leader George Lincoln Rockwell to address 5,000 Nation members at a convention in Chicago. More recently, neo-Nazi and American supremacists have supported Muslim terrorism.

"The neo-Nazi and American radical reaction to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks was one of applause," Potok said. "The two sets of extremists view themselves as opposing the same enemy, and the reaction gives us a window into the mind-set of the American far right. America is the enemy, the Jewish-led United States."

Neighborhood papered with white-supremacy literature

Boise _ Some residents woke up to find white-supremacy literature on their driveways and lawns last week.

"It bothers me they assume they can dump that stuff here. If we just ignore it, it is almost like we are saying it's OK, and it's not OK," said Jan, a southeast Boise resident who did not want his last name used for fear of being targeted by those passing out the fliers.

Police officials said they get calls about the fliers about every four months. What is different about the latest batch of fliers is that they portray the Utah-based National Alliance as a "family values" organization.

"This does sound like a new twist to what they do," Leslie Goddard, executive director of the Idaho Human Rights Commission, said. "I have never heard them try to portray themselves as a family values organization, which is certainly not the case. These are antisemitic, racist fliers."

Police said little can be done to stop distribution of the pamphlets because of constitutionally protected free speech.

"I tell people who call the best thing they can do is throw it away," Charlene Miller of the Boise Police Department crime prevention unit, said.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), March 06, 2002


Very good, Diane. You read the propaganda perfectly. No White Supremist group is going to be plotting with Al Queda unless they are both members of the FBI. And tthat is not far fetched at all. There are quite a few good FBI agents and CIA agents who are trying to do good work. There are sveral who were stymied and told they would be sued or fired if they continued pursuing Muslims Extremists last year prior to 9 11.

This stuff is easy deflection. Just like Fundamental Christians are equated with the Taliban... the machine is ready to begin firing.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), March 06, 2002.

I would take anything that comes out of the Southern Poverty Law Center with a huge grain of salt. They have a long history of lumping unrelated groups together in their "alerts" as a way of grabbing the headlines. They did a story last year about the Norse religion of Asatru and it's alleged ties to Neo-Nazis and white supremicists where they stated that anyone who practices Asatru supports the Unibomber. That's like saying anyone who practices Christianity supports the KKK.

-- Sherri C in Central Indiana (CeltiaSkye@aol.com), March 06, 2002.

I understand what you are saying Sherri, and for that reason, almost didn't post it. What alarmed me was that people that I otherwise thought quite reasonable, were speaking as if it were FACT.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), March 06, 2002.

Just a point regarding drugs and terrorists: Afghanistan is THE number one grower and exporter of heroin in the entire world....the Taliban, with all of its' rhetoric of purist religious beliefs, turned an eye away from many farmers who continued to grow and export heroin......after the Taliban was ousted, farmers were interviewed by American reporters, saying that now that they can freely grow heroin, it is their crop of choice...the very idea that folks here in the USA who purchase heroin are supporting the economy of a terrorist state prior to the troops invading Afghanistan, wsn't lost on drug addicts....we work with many addicts and ex-addicts, many of whom were horrified that their habit supported Afghanistan. I personally was very angry when I heard President Bush's State of the Union address, where he announced we would be giving big $$$$$ to that country to assist in its' re-development. I fired off several heated letters to every elected official i could think of, as well as several newspapers.....not a single US dollar should be sent to that or any other country until the poppy fields are wiped out. Drug addicts NEED to know that their $$$$$ supports not only foreign terrorist regimes, but this countrys' organized crime, moral decline, etc. etc..right on down to the destruction of the family. It amazes me that the addicts, previously knowing all but where the poppies are grown, are indeed impressed with the knowledge of whom they have been making wealthy out side their own country....I guess it wasn't enough to know they destroy families and themselves here in the USA, but they are patriots as well, sick as they are....and many. many of them are re-thinking their habits in the light of the attack against America..strange, but true....

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), March 06, 2002.


Thanks for posting this.

I always watch for key words in anything I read. These words will give me a clue as to the authenticity of the article.

The words include such things as: If, May, Possible, Could, Potential. If these words are used often, the article is probably propaganda. And in the above case it is truly obvious.

I agree with Sherri about the Southern Poverty Law Center not being a reputable organization. I have heard other things from their past that were also not quite true.

We always need to be vigilant about what is going on around us, and I think that this forum helps me find things that I otherwise may not be able to find. Thanks to all who post here.

Talk to you later.

-- Bob in WI (bjwick@hotmail.com), March 06, 2002.

Thanks for the alternative view lesley. I can not help wondering why this was never brought up BEFORE 9-11. It is all just so very confusing to me. I would very much prefer to NOT have such dark thoughts about my government to be very honest. My first desire is to just live quietly on my homestead and entertain my grandchildren here until I die a peaceful death.

The funny thing is I have always been one of those people who was the very last one to start smelling the dead fish so to speak. When all my friends around me started protesting the Vietnam war, I honored my father and stayed out of it cause he thought it was wrong and I loved him so dearly.

I was "susie homemaker" with three children until I was the victim of domestic violence and fled with my young children. At that time there was only a tiny smattering of shelters, and I left the state and went to another state. They helped me find an apartment and a job. All I had to do was move in to an apartment building that some serious protesters lived in and the Nixon FBI started a file on me. I think that is criminal and I see it happening all over again.

I have so many questions and so few answers. Even my son-in-law who is a cop thought the drug ads during the Olympics were rather odd.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), March 06, 2002.

Lesley, I am interested in you opinion of Afghanistan and the opium poppy crops. You quote Afghanistan as a terrorist state, can you identify any international terrorist act carried out by Afghans?

Poppy farming is a long tradition in the area, long before the Taleban came on the scene. Did you know that much of the opium left Afghanistan via the northern borders? Yes that is true, much of the opium from Afghanistan was grown by the farmers in the area of the Northern Alliance, that bunch of good old guys that are now the allies of the USA.

The Taleban were only in power for a fairly short time, just a few years, they started as a strict religion based regime that came down hard on the prevailing banditry and petty 'warlordism'. They sought international recognition and were consistently refused, OBL and his mates took this as a signal that Afghanistan would be a good haven so they moved in and eventually controlled much of what the Taliban did. Without the interference of OBL the Taleban would still be in place and the country would be governed by laws and practices quite similar to those of many other countries in the areas, some of those countries are great USA allies.

In about 1999 Mullah Omar made a determined attempt to gain the important international recognition and totally banned poppy planting, again he was refused and instead even more stringent sanctions were imposed in about December 2000.

The Taleban did not destroy Afghanistan, it was already destroyed, the Taleban did more to stop opium production in the area than anyone else has.

How many Afghans have been killed by US bombs and bullets? Who knows, maybe 3 or more thousand. Has all that bombing done anything to repair the damage of previous wars?

The USA can just walk away from Afghanistan, ignore the starving farmers in desertified areas, ignore the teenage widowed mothers, ignore the old men trying to feed their extended families. Just ignore all those things. Just don't wonder 'Why do they hate us so?'

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), March 06, 2002.

Correction John, the Taliban did not stop Opium Trafficking they regulated it. In otherwords the crops that were grown and later transported to the U.S. and other countries were allowed to do so by the Taliban. Guess where the proceeds ended up? You guessed it! These are not benevolent religious men of God they're thugs who suppressed womens rights even the most basic ones, raped them, and murdered people who disagreed with their political philosophies.


-- PoePoe (rpd932@yahoo.com), March 06, 2002.

PoePoe, please take a look at http://opioids.com/afghanistan/

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), March 06, 2002.

Here is a bit more, this time taken from the BBC's site, please note the second paragraph.

Afghanistan's interim government, headed by Hamid Karzai, has banned the cultivation of opium poppies, in a bid to stop drug trafficking. A statement issued by the new administration said the ban included the trafficking of opium and all its derivatives, including heroin.

The decree renewed an order issued by the Taleban authorities two years ago, when Afghanistan was the world's largest producer of opium.

That ban was strictly enforced but since the fall of the Taleban, farmers in the main production areas have already been planting opium seeds for next year's crop.

UN incentives

Farmers ignoring the new order will face prosecution, according to the report.

"All countrymen, especially peasants and farmers, are informed that, from now on, the cultivation, manufacturing, processing, impermissible use, smuggling and trafficking of opium poppy and all its derivatives is declared illegal," the statement said.

The interim administration has asked the United Nations and the international community to help it provide incentives for farmers to grow food crops instead of poppies.

Under the Taleban ban opium production fell from more than 3,000 tonnes a year to less than 200 tonnes and the poppies were virtually eradicated from areas under their control.

Drugs stockpile

But desperate farmers in Nangarhar and Helmund have returned to growing the poppies.

UN drugs officials say that despite the drop in opium production Afghan farmers still have large stocks of opium and heroin that they can supply to the world market for the foreseeable future.

The BBC's Kabul correspondent Kate Clark says Afghan farmers may get only one percent of global profits from the opium trade, but that is significant money in such an impoverished country.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), March 06, 2002.

John, I respect your opinion, and believe your facts to be true. My opinion and belief are grouned in fact as well. The Taliban can be directly linked to Opiates. That is the only real cash crop available to them since the ruin of their fertile farming valleys by the Russian Army prior to their pullout. I would cite some documentation if I had time to find it again however I'm late for work.

God Bless,


-- PoePoe (rpd932@yahoo.com), March 06, 2002.

Well, I heard on the news tonight that they are looking a columbian links to al Qaeda and potential military intervention in their big deal they have going. The way I see it, all America's finest will soon be out of the country and we will be ripe for the picking.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), March 06, 2002.

I guess I'm thinking that nothing would surprise me regarding the implications of dianes post. I do remember hearing about the possible ties between the right wing extremists and the middle eastern terrorist organizations before 9/11 and as strange as it sounds it kinda makes sense. The KKK, Aryan nation et al are rabid haters of Israel and Jews and haters of the American government as are the Middle eastern terrorist groups. Thats hardly conclusive of anything but it does get me to thinking.

As to the drug connection, thats another thing. In my job I drive a courior truck. One of my stops is the library. I often go thru the numerous periodicals they throw out. Recently I picked up an old issue of The Humanist dated 1991. I'm reading an article about the Sr Bush regime and the suppression of a documentary film entitled COVERUP. I'm not done with the article yet but so far the evidence sems pretty clear there was ALOT of stuff connected to the Iran- Contra investigation that never reached the light of day, especially as it concerned the drug trade and how some of the proceeds supported covert operations.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), March 06, 2002.

If the Government would just legalize drugs and regulate and tax them like they do liquor,beer,cig's,ammo,etc. and they were sold for a resonable price it would end all these stupid drug connections and stuff.

-- TomK(mich) (tjk@cac.net), March 06, 2002.

AMEN! to that Tom. Apologies for the thread drift folks but when you think about the costs and hidden costs of the "war on drugs" it makes me wonder why they don't do something about it unless its "better" for the economy the way it is.

A list of some of the "costs". More cops---jobs The DEA---jobs The courts---jobs Probation and parole officers---jobs Prison guards---jobs new construction of prisons---jobs social services helping families of the "bread winners" now in prison

I think a very strong economic argument could be made for the legalization Tom mentioned. Not only would we save billions in tax dollars by eliminating the dollar expenses listed above but we would also generate Billions in new tax revenues by treating the stuff like alchohol and tobacco is treated----with excise taxes.

An "argument" for the economic "benefits" of the war on drugs would also have to include the observation that while jobs are created for the "enforcement" part of the picture they also take potential wage earners off the streets thereby "improving" the employment figures.

Then there's the more insidious costs---the assaults on individual liberties and the avoidance of due process with "administrative law" that permits search and siezure without warrents, judicial oversight or any chance of redress---thus no accountability for the "enforcing" agencies.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), March 06, 2002.

I have always liked the "just say no programs", but perhaps they appeal to me because I was brought up from a very young age that smoking, drinking (even responsible social drinking), and doing drugs was something only stupid people did, and of course, one doesn't want to be stupid. I don't know if this program works as well with someone who was brought up with the notion that such activities were merely sinful.

My biggest problem with legalization is that when people cause accidents because they're under the influence (drinking, drugs), or distracted (spilled hot ashes on their body from a cigarette) and kill someone they are not only NOT adequately punished, but get to use the "addiction" crutch. No one forces people to drink, smoke, or do drugs, they do it to themselves, but it is nearly always the innocent who die in these car accidents. The drunk, for example, is usually so relaxed and oblivious to what is going on that he has a better chance of survival than someone who is tensed to the max and seeing this vehicle coming at straight at them.

Another problem is whose rights take precedence in public places where smoking is still allowed (say a restaurant) where medical marijuana is concerned? The person using it, or the people with little kids they don't want exposed to it, or the person who is subject to drug testing at his place of employment? What about employees at that restaurant-- there are probably some effects besides the damage from second-hand smoke. What about the owner of the restaurant--does a "no smoking" sign apply to medical marijuana as well?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 07, 2002.

John...The Taliban supported the Arabs in their country who obviously attcked the US on 9/11..therefore, Taliban=terrorist regime..the Taliban sure did a poor job of banning heroin exports since poppy fields were evident when the US military began bombing Afgahanistan...As far as the "poor downtrodden, suffering " Afghanistan citizens, apparently victims (you infer) of the "bad, bad" USA military...look at the history of warfare in the world and name a SINGLE military action, by anyone, in which civilain casualties did not occur. There aren't any, and never have been. The citizens of a country are always victims of their governments' decisions to begin or end an action. Too bad..war is not nice, war is not pretty....thousands of people were killed in England,Germany, Poland, France, Russia, Checkoslavakia, Austria, China, etc. etc. during the first days of World war 2..before the USA was even involved.....Rome established an empire on the graves of countless of civilians....there is no such thing as a sterile war where only combatants are killed. I feel just as sorry for the innocent folks in Afghanistan as I do for the folks killed here on 9/11, but not enough to condemn our government's retaliation..it has my full support. As far as heroin in this country goes....France began issuing a drug called "Buprenorphine" five years ago to all heroin addicts who wanted to stop using heroin. The drug cannot be abused because when liquified and injected, it has a drug in it which cancels out the opiate effect. 78% of all heroin addicts who went on this new drug were able to change their lives..crime dropped like a rock...Buprenorphine is CHEAP and can be prescribed by a family doctor in three months supply. The National Drug Research agancy has recommended use of this drug in the USA specifically to stop heroin addiction for the last 3 years..the FDA will not approve it and has given zero reasons...I suspect the reasons center around our economy..heroin addiction is a big bucks business for a great number of people: Think what would happen if 78% of the heroin addicts in the US stopped using heroin....no methadone clinics, significantly fewer drug rehab hospitals and clinics, jail populations would decrease dramatically, public defenders would have to change their specialty, all of these "cure" hospital areas would go out of business....the police would have no overtime, the DEA would be bored, even the big city morgues would have to lay off people....BTW, methadone, as a prescription pain reliver costs less than $30 for 90 pills...the government-sponsored methadone clinics charge the addicts $250 up front to "join" and $15/day per dose, 7 days a week. Who is out to make money and who is out to actually help addicts who want help????? I could talk about this all day.....if you are interested, do a web search on "Buprenorphine"..fascinating....

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), March 07, 2002.

Lesley, you know full well the Taleban were not a popular government so how can it be OK to punish ordinary Afghans for the what the Taleban leadership did? Your earlier post objected to reconstruciton effort in Afghanistan and I said that to walk away will not recover the goodwill that USA once had in Afghanistan.

Because the US forces entered Afghanistan via the area controlled by the Northern Alliance I would not be suprised if they did indeed find poppy fields there.

The millions of innocents killed in earlier wars are no justification for killing any more.

I dont see how I could avoid feeling a victim when a bomb falls on my house killing and maiming my family.

I know nothing about heroin addiction and the treatment of addicts, I do however know just a little bit about Afghanistan.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), March 07, 2002.

"look at the history of warfare in the world and name a SINGLE military action, by anyone, in which civilain casualties did not occur."

Maybe we should reconsider war as an economic stimulus...

-- joj (jump@off.c), March 07, 2002.

I just really really wish that everyone would realize that this isn't a WAR. It is a military police action on the edict of a President with no Congressional approval which means that the people of the United States are NOT being represented in the action and the murders of the people of Afghanistan. this may seem like nit picking because bombs and death and bullets equal war in our minds, but there is a serious reason for for these seemingly technical aspects being avoided. they are two fold. First of all should it actually be declared a War the Geneva Convention must be followed, secondly the ICC would possibly come into play and third of all the President would have to address Congress and outline the reasons to ask for the War to be declred and explain all of those nagging problems that he suggested not be addressed by the Congressional inquiry into the attacks of 9 11. the last one is the thing I suspect geo W really feels disinclined to do. It is seriously faulty reasoning to think that just because someone says someone did an atrocious act that these newer and more vast attrocities are necessary. Also the CIA has been proven to be bringing the largest amount of narcotics in the country. ggrrrrr. It's all hogwash.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), March 08, 2002.

yes Doreen.......hogwash. But, let's face the facts.......most of our countrymen think it is all truth. Look at how even people who are supposedly thinking think that this drug rap is all truth. My husband and I both look at each other in total disbelief that this guy has such a high approval rating. Because he calls himself a born again believer his praises are being sung in most church pulpits. I think there is something MAJOR wrong with this picture, and have since day one but we have to get real. Until it jumps up and bites people in the face this snake has got all the power!!!!

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), March 08, 2002.

I would like to recommend two sources of information relating to Afghanistan. One is UK writer Robert Fisk who is a regular contributor to the Independant newspaper, his current story can be found at


Although you might find this particular article critical of the US he is equally critical of other alliance partners.

My second recommendation is http://www.sabawoon.com

their almost daily news stories are well worth reading.

A third site is http://www.myafghan.com/ which is another Afghan news concentrator, if you go there today take a look at the story about the gas pipe-line.

I hope you will take my recommendation and use these sites to broaden your knowledge of just what is happening.

-- john hill (John@cnd.co.nz), March 09, 2002.

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