How can I annull the marrige, it would be like "annulling" the kids?

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What is the best way to reply to this delicate question from a VERY close Catholic friend of mine who went through a divorce and has children from the marriage?

"this is a lot to think about. How can I annull the marrige, it would be like "annulling" the kids?"

-- Michael Hitzelberger (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), March 13, 2002

Answers

Thanks

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), March 13, 2002.

Thanks but I found this:

1. If you were to die, she would be free to marry. 2. If, after the divorce, she were to obtain a Decree of Nullity from the Catholic diocese's marriage tribunal, she would be free to marry. Such a Decree would be granted only if the tribunal were to find that, on the day of your wedding, you and she did not really enter into a valid, sacramental marriage, in the eyes of God and the Church, because of some impediment. (I know that such a thing may seem impossible after 25 years, but it could happen.) If a Decree of Nullity were granted, it would mean that both you and she would be free to enter into the first valid sacrament marriage of your lives. If you have children, they would not be considered illegitimate by Church of state.

Praying for God's will to be done in your lives, John

J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 04, 2001

AND THIS

Dear Torryann, My advice at this time (until you change your views) is-- stay in the Church and do not approach the Sacrament of the altar. Only make the spiritual communion He is asking of you. Your faith in Him may open the door to Holy Communion as time goes by. The very fact you refer to yourself as the ''Lost Catholic trying to find a place that matches my beliefs'' tells us you actually believe the Church has authority to bar you from absolution and communion. And that's correct. Matching your beliefs is a contradiction. You must match the Church's teachings, as indeed you may have tried to do, going to confession.

What did you expect the confessor to say-- ''OK, you aren't validly married by the Catholic Church; but I'll absolve you anyhow?'' He never said your children are illegitimate. You are legally married outside the True Church. To be in full communion with her, you must re-marry according to the Church's sacrament of Matrimony. Then, you can freely come to the sacraments. The priest absolves you at confession, unless you have an impediment-- the impediment itself may not be a sin. But the conditions for receiving absolution are clear. Marry first in the Church.

Don't attempt to ''find'' a Church that ''agrees'' with your beliefs! That's a cop-out. Be true to your faith! God will help you find the way back. Give Him a chance; don't leave His Church, and make matters worse. --I'll pray for you, Torryann; take heart. You'll be fine. This is a test that God sends you and your family. Keep on going, with His grace.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), July 19, 2001.

I think that covers it.

Thanks

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), March 13, 2002.


I have read on the subject in the past. I have no idea where the literature is now. But here goes. An annulment invalidates the marriage only but it never invalidates the existence of the kids in any way. They still have a Mother and a Father. This is the teaching of the Church as I understand it. The annulment simplies states the conditions for a commitment to marriage failed from the beginning. but the children of that marriage are valid and GOD's gift to the both parents. On this issue it would be best to get more advice from a priest or a layperson, marriage encounter counselors, who can answer these questions who deals with helping couples who are in the planning stages for marriage. I can't help much but that is what I do know. May GOD Bless.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), March 13, 2002.

MIKE:
A fair response would have to be, How have you ''divorced'' the same kids?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 13, 2002.

Jmj

Hello, Mike.
Thanks for finding some value in what I had previously written to someone else. May I add a few thoughts?

Your friend asked you, "How can I annull the marrige, it would be like 'annulling' the kids?"

The first thing is that no one can annul a marriage.
If a union is really a marriage (something valid in the eyes of God), no one can annul it. No one can make it into a nullity or cause it to become invalid.
If a union is not (and never has been) really a marriage (something valid in God's eyes), then there is nothing to "annul." It has already and always been a "nullity" and "invalid," and all that is left is for the Church to declare that such is true.
BUT, on the other hand ... a kid is really a kid (someone real and beautiful in the eyes of God), and no one can annul a kid. No one can ever make her, or declare him to be, a nullity or invalid. Legitimacy is a matter of concern to civil law, not to the Catholic Church. Besides that, any child born within a "putative marriage" (one considered legal and valid by the parents) is ipso facto "legitimate."

Please consider the following words, which were written by Monsignor Kevin Quirk, a judge on a marriage tribunal:

"First and foremost, the process for a declaration of nullity, as practiced by the Catholic Church, does not in any way affect the children born of the union under question. Your child is your child and will remain so even into eternity; 'illegitimacy' has no place in our process. Indeed, you and _____ believed yourselves to be validly and licitly married when you gave birth to your daughter, and you continue to provide the fathering so necessary to the positive growth and development of a child. No process, civil or ecclesiastical, can sunder this relationship borne of the body and the heart; nor should any process attempt to do so. Please do not think that the Catholic Church, itself eminently pro-life and pro-family, would ever attempt to stigmatize children or break up families."

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 14, 2002.



Thanks John and Eugene,

I passed on the information. This friend (woman) now said she thinks she was wrong in getting a divorce and does not want an annullment and won't try. She never remarried, but she was the one who originally filed for divorce and her husband remarried. I'm not sure what that means to the woman, it is like she caused him to remarry.

She takes her kids to mass and skips communion and confession herself. It bothers me that she is not in full communion with the Church. I told her she might be OK if she didn't remarry and she should see a priest but it is like she is beating herself up over it. I sent her an Act of Contrition and Act of Spiritual Communion.

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), March 14, 2002.


Mike,

Why is she skipping communion and confession? Is she just not in the state of mind to receive sacraments?

Does she feel that she is doing something wrong? You explained that she initiated a divorce, but has not remarried. If she believes that separation was the right move for her, she has not gotten married to anyone else, and is not conscious of any grave sin, she should feel welcome to the sacraments, if she feels she would like to receive them.

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), March 14, 2002.


Yes, Mike. Mateo is correct. Your friend should not stay away from the sacraments. She is depriving herself of great graces. She would be a much happier person if she would be reconciled and begin receiving Communion.

I have a feeling that she is laboring under a misconception that a lot of elderly and middle-aged Catholics have -- namely, that they have been excommunicated from the Church simply because of having been divorced. Not true! (I have heard [but have never verified] that there was excommunication -- or at least deprivation of the sacraments -- for those who divorced when the 1917 Code of Canon Law was in effect. But such is definitely not the case under the new 1983 Code.)

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 15, 2002.


By all means, encourage your friend to feel welcome in seeking reconcilliation, and especially communion afterwards. Reception of these sacraments will suffuse and edify her vitality.

-- Melissa (holy_rhodes@earthlink.net), March 15, 2002.

Mateo, John, Melissa,

Thanks for the reply! That is great news! I kind of thought that would be the case but I have very little experience of laws around marriage situations so far. Since I am single and always have been, I am slow in being motivated to learn this. I just came back to the faith three years ago after a twenty year hiatus.

Very great news, I e-mailed her already! Be Joyful, this is cause for Joy do not be sad!

Thank You Blessed Virgin Mary and All the Saints!

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), March 15, 2002.



To the top, for some help!

-- David (David@excite.com), April 17, 2002.

I divorced not out of love but to find peace in my family ordeal; since we have not remarried and I do receive communion. As I understand in they eyes of the chruch we are still married since there has been no annualment. He has asked me to remarry him. If he or I decides to marry someone else can we, marry though the catholic church or is an annualment necessary. Can we marry through another non-cathlolic church or just through the justice of peace without the cathloic annualment?

thanks

-- Mia Moncivaez (aladdin.hen.mia@homecast.net), May 19, 2002.


Hello, Mia.

The best thing, if you are convinced that reconciliation is possible, is for you to be reunited with your husband. Since the two of you cannot celebrate the Sacrament of Marriage with each other for a second time, you would need only to satisfy the requirements of the civil law (i.e., a non-religious ceremony). You would definitely not need to seek a Decree of Nullity.

However, if a reconciliation with your husband is not possible, and if you have reason to believe that your "union" with him was null and void, you would have to seek a Decree of Nullity from your Catholic diocese. Only with that decree would you be free to marry another person -- i.e., genuinely to get married for the first time in your life. And as a Catholic, you are not permitted to proceed to a "remarriage" (to a different person) in a non-Catholic ceremony unless you have your bishop's permission.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 20, 2002.


John

Your Quote: "And as a Catholic, you are not permitted to proceed to a "remarriage" (to a different person) in a non-Catholic ceremony unless you have your bishop's permission."

What in the world is the meaning of this statement. Seems to me that you are dictating the rule here.

A person can marry someone else in a civil ceremony if they chose to give up the right to recieve communion. Could you explain your comment a bit more clearly please. What is a Bishop to do in such a case? Grant a dispensation to allow the Catholic to recieve communion or what?

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 20, 2002.


I'll be happy to explain further, Fred.
I promise that I am not "dictating," but only passing along the Church's rules, as stated in the Code of Canon Law. I always try my best to do that.

I told Mia, "[A]s a Catholic, you are not permitted to proceed to a "remarriage" (to a different person) in a non-Catholic ceremony, unless you have your bishop's permission."
Here I was referring to a Catholic that has obtained a Decree of Nullity. (Obviously, a Catholic who has not obtained a Decree need not even seek a bishop's permission for a second marriage.)

To this, Fred, you replied: "A person can marry someone else in a civil ceremony if they chose to give up the right to recieve communion."

From a secular point of view, you are correct -- a divorced Catholic can "marry" in a civil ceremony. The state will recognize this as a "marriage."
However, I normally don't speak in secular terminology when I answer marriage/divorce/nullity questions here. I speak in Catholic terminology instead. And therefore, the Church would say that a divorced Catholic (who lacks a Decree of Nullity) cannot really and truly "marry" in a civil ceremony. A genuine "marriage" does not really take place, but only an "attempted marriage" -- a ceremony that is invalid in the eyes of God and the Church.

Fred, you then asked: "What is a Bishop to do in such a case? Grant a dispensation to allow the Catholic to recieve communion or what?"

No. I was talking about something different. Here's what I meant ...
Picture a Catholic woman who has received a Decree of Nullity. She is now free to marry genuinely for the first time ever. Suppose this woman falls in love with a Baptist man and he prefers that the wedding take place in his church building (with his minister officiating), not in her Catholic church building (with her priest officiating. [Perhaps the latter would be very objectionable to his parents, etc..] In such a case, the Catholic woman needs to obtain her bishop's permission to be married outside the normal "form" (which usually requires marriage in a Catholic church or chapel, with a Catholic priest or deacon officiating). My understanding is that bishops do usually grant these "dispensations."

But now, Fred, suppose that the Catholic woman does not want to go to the trouble of obtaining the bishop's permission -- and perhaps does not want to put off the marriage to the Baptist man for six months while they go through a pre-marriage course required by the bishop. If that couple go to be "married" by a justice of the peace or by the Baptist minister, they will not be genuinely, validly married in the eyes of God (even though they are married in the eyes of the state). The Catholic woman is required to be married according to canonical "form" -- or to have the bishop's permission to do otherwise.

I hope that this clarifies my previous message for you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 20, 2002.



I just reread my message and found an ambiguous sentence: "(Obviously, a Catholic who has not obtained a Decree need not even seek a bishop's permission for a second marriage.)"
What I meant was that there there is no point in a Catholic's seeking a dispensation for a second marriage (outside canonical form) when one is still married, in the eyes of God, to the first spouse (even if there has been a divorce).
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 20, 2002.

John

It was your last sentence in the prevous post that was very disturbing in that you had people thinking the Bishop is GOD and he can actually decide a person's fate. I just wanted to see if you would tone that one down a bit. It is just to ridgid. One needs to take care to clearly distinguish the secular and Spiritual issues clearly. You made it sound as if ANY mariage needs the approval of a Bishop. Most of us do not really have any idea of the rules and like myself it took time for me to really understand them fully. But as always some priests and bishops will alter the rules to suit their own diocese for some reasons that they see needed. Of cource with permission from the holy See or the Magisterium. Yes, even in schism.

I have seen some pastors have differing rules from others in the same diocese. It is a sad thing to witness. I just wish that all of this was simple, but it is not and distortions do happen. The case of assent to the magisterium is a clear sign of what I am talking about.

Blessings

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 20, 2002.


Hi, Fred.
You wrote, "It was your last sentence in the prevous post that was very disturbing in that you had people thinking the Bishop is GOD and he can actually decide a person's fate."
My last sentence (to which you refer) was: "And as a Catholic, Mia, you are not permitted to proceed to a 'remarriage' (to a different person) in a non-Catholic ceremony unless you have your bishop's permission."

Fred, I respect your right to disagree with me, but I seriously doubt that many people would join you in saying that I "had people thinking the Bishop is God." I believe you when you say that this was your reaction, but my opinion is that it is not a proper reaction. What I said was correct, not "rigid," and pretty clear and easily understood, in my opinion, within the remaining context of my response to Mia. The key phrase in my sentence was "as a Catholic" -- showing that I was speaking only from a religious point of view, not saying that a bishop has control over secular matters.

Fred, I have been saying similar things on dozens of marriage/divorce/nullity threads here for a year or more, and I have to be honest ... no one ever before reacted negatively as you just did now. When I saw your reaction, it made me think that perhaps I had touched a raw nerve -- something related to an event in your own private life. I'm not asking you to reveal it, if there was such an event. I'm only asking you to reconsider and to realize that there was nothing inaccurate or insensitive in my message to Mia.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 20, 2002.


John

I am sorry for being so hard on your point. It sounded a bit too hard and I thought it best for you to see the possibility that someone would misinterpret what you said. Yes I will be a bit more careful. Thanks.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 20, 2002.


Sorry all -once marriage is declared invalid and if both parties become certain of its nullity (e.g. remarry) the children are illegitimate in the church...

The current "children will be OK" spin is pushed by the same that push moral relativism, follow your feelings and annulment...

-read Canon Law for yourself: http://www.deacons.net/Canon_Law/book_4.htm

Can. 1137 Children who are conceived or born of a valid or of a putative marriage are legitimate.

Can. 1061 Par 3 An invalid marriage is said to be putative if it has been celebrated in good faith by at least one party. It ceases to be such when both parties become certain of its nullity.

-- Daniel (love@truth.org), March 26, 2003.


Jmj
Hello, Daniel.

You are mistaken in saying that "the children are illegitimate in the church..."
The problem is that you have misunderstood the canons that you quoted.

The fact that a "marriage" which has been declared null ceases to be a "putative marriage" has no effect on the legitimacy of the children.
Their legitimacy is established, once and for all, by the fact that the marriage was putative at the time of their conception or birth. Legitimacy cannot be lost.
[Besides this, a person's "illegitimacy" has no negative eccesial effects nowadays, anyway.]

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 30, 2003.


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