Question of the weekgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Freedom! self reliance : One Thread
A very simple but to the point question. With all the different types of people out here this question does come to mind.
What way would you truly like to live? What type of country would you have if we had to start all over?
Would you like no Government? Some Government? No Police? Some Rules? No Rules? etc.
-- TomK(mich) (email@example.com), March 17, 2002
First, I'd like to live within a culture where peoples actions were dominated by internalized christian values - not "rule of law". If that existed, the secular form of government would be less significant. 2nd to that, a country that would adhere to our original constituion and bill or rights, one that supressed growth and control by central goverment would fit well. However, I don't think the 2nd can be sustained without the first.
-- charles (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 17, 2002.
is there a centralized christain value system? or all baptiss? or catholics? or any of the others?, how about literal values,, eye for an eye, stuff?
-- Stan (email@example.com), March 17, 2002.
You know, I think that our country is headed down a spiral of death. BUT>>> IF our wonderful citizens would stand up , and take an interest , it could be saved. To make our country great again, We need to do a mass dumping of all, YES ALL, our goverment services. Nasa, Medicaid, medicare, wellfare, a.f.d.c., wic, SSI, and all the others. Once this is done, we could restructure these programs , eliminate some , and find out we have money to put back in places its needed... ie, our national parks, and the military. I also would like to point out one thing ( First let me say i am a born again christian ) Our country was founded so that ALL people could live the way they wanted. Our forefathers were christians, and our money says " IN GOD WE TRUST" , I think all of that should stay the same. BUT, I also think that each person who lives here has a right to decide on their own what religion if any they want to be, what sexual preferrences they chose. It is WRONG to say that someone shouldnt be allowed in the navy if they are gay, or that someone cant join a group because they are atheists. Just because you think it is wrong to be gay, doesnt make it wrong. God says that he is the judge not us. Gays will be judged by God not me, and shouldnt be by anyone else. I realize I probably just made alot of people mad, but if you read the constitution, it is right there in black and white. ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL......
-- Kristean Thompson (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 17, 2002.
First of all, I have learned that we must abolish the central government by any means necessary: and I mean yesterday ! Not only remove the power but destroy any reminder that they ever existed. Your correct--I'm suggesting we use a bulldozer on Washington D.C. and bury the ruble in Marrianna's trench. Every monument, plaque, and stone, are a reminder to future generations of abominations against mankind. We made Hitler and Stalin look like kindergarten teachers in the name of Freedom.
We must become more local ! I hope to live to see the demolition of the State capital of Richmond and the rebuilding of the House of Burgesses. We have to police our own backyard. In the military the word police means remove the trash and that is what is needed.
The bible says if a man lives to serve and obey God than he will not break a law and if he does than the church is to deal with him. So Stan's critic' won't hold water. There are now only 10 laws and the church is the courtroom, your peers are you jury and those laws are not baptist Catholic or Lutheran. They are simple, complete and understandable. And the courts will be over run with idiots but we will deal with them ! Now Kristaen has a problem also because her "All men are created Equal" was written by Men who would have hung gays by the millions. I suggest we have certain states for seperate life styles and I recommend highly that Kristaens friends choose an area far from Virginia, like California.
Anyway, old age is creeping up on me and I realize I must concentrate on freeing Virginia and revoking the lease on Washington D.C. If I can just do that much in my lifetime than I'll have left the world a better place and I can die in success !
-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), March 17, 2002.
Well said Charles! If we would adhere to Gods law, and I'm talking about the God of the bible, there would be much less need for the other. Respect for our Constitution and Bill of Rights without all the reinterpretation from judges with their own liberal agenda would cure many of the ills in our country. Our government is TOO BIG! Government tells us what we can and can't do. Too often government spends too much of our money before we have even made it without asking our opinion on how it should be spent.
Kristean, I'm not mad, and I respect your opinion, but I would direct you to your bible. Especially the part about homosexuality being an abomination to God and all (pay special attention to Sodom and Ghomora). I don't judge gays nor do I descriminate against them. I simply love the sinner and hate the sin (figuratively that is!). We are to be the salt and light of the world. This includes openly opposing homosexuality and like sexually immoral conduct. Its sin plain and simple! To say nothing of the fact that being gay is counterproductive. Unfortunately, too many people these days want to blur the line between right and wrong and fear being labeled as intollerant a word leveled too easily against moral people of late.
-- PoePoe (email@example.com), March 18, 2002.
Joel, Abolishing the central government is not going to do anything except create chaos. For 16 yrs, before the Constitution came to be,the 13 sovereign American governments underwent a giant collapse. They thought they could retain sovereignty and still be at peace with each other,after the England treaty of 1783,the 13 slid into anarchy. New York and New jersey shot it out over the harbor with each other over the right to tax incoming ships. Penn. and N.J. never agree on a mutual border.Conn. and Mass. fought over the acquisition of western territories. Also during that time if you started out from say N.H. with $100 by the time you got to Georgia that $100 would have been worth $20 and you never spent a cent. Charles, If you have peoples actions "dominated by internalized christian values" then what do you do with the people whose actions are dominated by - "internalized Jewish values",'internalized Native American values','internalized Deists values',Islamic,etc.?
Kristean, The reason we have the government programs that we have is because the general population at times did not,does not and could not reach out and help and care for the under population in this country. If we had taken care of our own,the government would not have had to step in. We "The People" created the monster we have. As for gays and religion beliefs and rights I think Joel's and PoePoe posts answers that topic from people that you would have to deal with in your country.
-- TomK(mich) (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 18, 2002.
I generally consider myself as a pacifistic anarchist. I'm of the belief that the number of laws on a nations or societies books are in inverse relationship to the genuine level of civilization. The more laws, the less "civilized".
So, in my perfect world, the law of the land would be "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.", "Live and let live." and "If it harm no other, do what you will." This allows for plenty of room for free will and respects its sanctity.
-- john (email@example.com), March 18, 2002.
Lordamighty, John, you're the only other pacifist-anarchist I've ever met. We should start our own party!!!!! ;^]
-- gilly (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 18, 2002.
Nutz. I had written a reply to this and the puter burped. Guess it didn't take.
Well, for myself, the way I would like like to live is to be regulated in very few ways. Like if it's my house, and I want to live in a leaky shed, with no toilet and one extension cord, then let me do so. If I should go and throw my waste into the neighbors pond, THAT is an infringement, but if I bury it on my land, leave me alone.
I would like internalized Christian values, as cr said, being..."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." However, there is going to be need for law albeit preciously few, adherence to the Constitution on smaller local levels would be fine. Juries should be of your peers. Look up the definition of peer, it doesn't mean just anyone, nor does it mean a cross section of society at large.
As for central government, I believe if smaller States of like mind were to be able to stand that there would have to be a consensus and a treaty of mutuality at the least. Somewhat like the Iriquois at the least. There must be rules for any society, but we surely don't need the plethora of legislation that we have. It's all really simple. You don't steal, you don't murder, you don't tresspass, you live as you like as long as you hurt no one in the process. If you rape the neighbor's child you should expect to be killed.
I do think there would need to be police, but I think the job should be done by individuals in the community for one year at a time, so that no graft would occur. Maybe on a lottery system, or something.
I can't even begin to imagine trying to question everyone about their sexual orientation and sending them off to another state to live if they didn't fit my ideas. Wow. I can't even understand how that comes into the conversation. If you aren't sleeping with me or someone in my care, I have no interest in the matter. It has been my experience that if you wish to help bring someone to Christ that you introduce them to Him and let their own hearts become convicted of what needs to change as they come to know him fully. Yes, I am very familar with what the bible has to say on the subject....I understand the severity, but if they aren't in Christ first the result is the same regardless.
The first one I wrote was better, but this will have to do for now!
-- Doreen (email@example.com), March 19, 2002.
May I suggest keeping the gay folk and killing all the lawyers?
-- Johnin S. IN (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 19, 2002.
No one is suggesting inquiring about the sexual preference of the general populous. What you do in the privacy of your bedroom and with whom is your own business. On that we are in agreement Doreen. However, society with the help of government legislation and the ACLU is shoving homosexuality down our throats. Don't ask don't tell isn't enough for the gay community anymore. They want affirmation and open acceptance of their lifestyle as a legitimate option from the strait community. Whats worse, is our lawmakers are slowly but surely pushing this on us. With regard to bringing them to Christ my opinion stays the same. Love the sinner hate the sin. I will speak the truth of the bible in love. I will not make consession, and fight them on every front where they attempt to legitimize their sexual preference through statute or case law.
-- PoePoe (email@example.com), March 19, 2002.
through the years there have been groups of people who have had to cram who they are down peoples throats so that they were able to share the true freedom white over 21 straight males have been able to enjoy since our ancesters first entered this country.
In order to be accepted you have to let others know you do exist. Imagine how this country would be today if people did not fight for black rights, womans rights and other groups of peoples rights.We would still be living in a country where only one group of people made all the laws to suit only themselves.
I believe God is perfectly capable of deciding who is or is not a sinner without help. I am sure he/she knows all of us sin in one form or another and maybe the biggest sinner of all will be those people who speak for God in a way that turns others away from him/her.
It is easy to think people can change who they are if you want them to change to who you are, but there really should only be one you and one of everyone else.
It really would surprise me if a person were sent to hell because he/she loved someone of the same sex. Wouldn't satan have a say about who is sent to him? I think most of the people Gods speakers claim are sinners might be to good for hell and to bad for heaven which if you were to ask everyone in the world who were sinners you would find out we all are. Each group of people is claimed to be sinners by those who see the only way as being their way.
God has been doing what he/she does forever without our help and I am sure he/she will keep on doing things his/her own way without our help in the future.
There are to many good people in this world who are treated unfairly by small groups of people and that is a shame!
If you enjoy your freedom thank those who fought for your rights. Imagine the suffering you would be going through today if someone hadn't taken a stand in the past.
I have known good and bad in every group I have ever met, and I have met many people who are both good and bad, but I would never even think of speaking for God without God contacting me personally with the request, and I don't mean via a human messenger who wants me to be like him/her.
I don't exspect everyone to agree with me on this, but that's ok with me, I wouldn't want to take away anyones right to not agree.
-- george nh (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 19, 2002.