Hello my name is Jennifer I am writing this letter for my friend Cherity. The MSQUN is her email address not mine so if you could send it dirctly to her instred of posting it here it would be such a help. Here is our problem.

I am a homeschool mom and she is not, her son right now is in a two or three day a week church program. He is having some problems with number recgination. I have given her a few ideas but none seem to be working. I am new to homeschooling myself and my knowledge is very limited. He is 4 soon to be 5 next week and she is working with him at home when she can. But nothing seems to be working. He will remember the number while they are working on it and maybe a few minutes later but as soon as they take a small break he forgets. I may be wrong about this but I'm not sure if he knows his ABC's very well yet either. He is a very sweet and loving child but I'm afarid that if Cherity(my friend) can not find a way to help teach him he may fall behind early on in his education and never catch up. By the way she would like to homeschool but her husband disagrees with it so there is no way for that to happen. I a really need to help her to do with but I don't know how. If anyone knows any tricks or tips that she can use to help Anderw learn and retain information. Please send it to her. Thanks God Bless Jennifer

-- Jennifer (msqun@hotmail.com), March 19, 2002

Answers

Sorry about some of my spelling and grammer. My fingers went faster than my brain. I hope some of you out there can help us!!

-- Jennifer (me again) (jfisher@midsouth.rr.com), March 19, 2002.

My advice would be to lay off and stop pushing him so hard. Unless there are some severe development problems, he'll learn when he's ready. Just my opinion.

-- Mona in OK (modoc@ipa.net), March 19, 2002.

I agree, don't be in such a hurry just because everyone else is--does he enjoy his church program? If so, I'm sure he'll be fine.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 19, 2002.

Sometimes our brains need just a little more maturity to grasp an abstract, like numbers. This little guy's brain is probably too busy learning something else right now, like how to be a little kid in a group, to retain his numbers for long.

I bet there is something else that he would catch like wildfire if it were presented to him. What's his interests? Work with that for a while.

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@somewhere.com), March 19, 2002.

I agree with the others. We've been homeschooling for about 9 years now, and when my son was learning the ABCs and 123s, he did it very early. My daughter, on the other hand, only learned what was important to her: the only color she would recognize was yellow, since it was her favorite; the only letters she would recognize were the letters in her name; etc. She's nearly 6 and knows them all now, but it was a little worrisome when it appeared that she just didn't get it. We tried not to push it or make comparisons with our son, but it was hard!

Perhaps if she left the learning materials around the house, in conspicuous places, so that they're always there for when her son is ready? Like an alphabet placemat, number pictures (number with pictures of how many that is), things like that? Same with colors and shapes... lots of picture books -- in the car, in the bedroom, even at the breakfast table. Just have them there without pushing them. He'll get the hang of it, it just takes some kids longer than others with some things. My son (almost 10) has about the worst handwriting in the world. On the other hand, my daughter (almost 6) is very precise in her printing and her drawing, and has been for some time. That's one of her strong areas.

Watching them learn is very cool -- I learn so much from them in the process!

Good luck to you and your friend. Trying not to worry is part of the fun!

-- Andrea (andreagee@aol.com), March 19, 2002.

I agree with the others that 4 is awfully young to be concerned about math skills. Children unfold at their own rate, and in their own time, and that must be respected, or you risk throwing the baby out with the bath water.

But if you want to play around with numbers with a small child (and the operative word here is *play* for there should be nothing forced or schoolish about it), buy a bag of M&Ms and show him what "5" looks like. Then show him what "7" looks like, and what 5 plus 7 looks like. This visual, concrete explanation of the abstract concepts present in math is what most children need to learn.

And then---and this is the *most important part*---let the child eat the M&Ms....chocolate is a great aid to learning and makes the whole thing fun!

-- Julia (charmer24@juno.com), March 19, 2002.

I always tried to make learning fun, and not really a formal experience. Start by counting M & M's or laying out silverware for supper, or counting red birds at the bird feeder etc... After a while it is amazing how much they have learned. I would not push a 4 year old to recognize numbers on flash cards, they are usually too busy to be interested in things like this.

My little boy loved to "play math". Early every morning he would get into my bed and beg me to play. I would ask him silly questions like, "If Grandma comes over and gives you 2 suckers and you eat one, how many would you have left?" He was only 2 when we started this, and by the time he went to school he could add and subtract numbers in the 100's in his head. He is in second grade now and he still is way ahead of his classmates.

by making it a fun, matter of fact, relevent activity, the child will learn without even knowing they are learning!

-- Melissa in SE Ohio (me@home.net), March 19, 2002.

I agree. I was starting on long multiplication before I started school (just because my cousin was doing correspondence school, and was older than me, and I was interested in things). When I got to school, I didn't read, but I'd been read to - LOTS, and I picked up reading like wildfire. However, worked out I was always slow and steady at maths - I could take it a LONG way, but very conscientously, slowly, not what they want in exams. I'd get almost everything I did right in a maths exam, but once I got past primary school I wouldn't finish much more than half or maybe two thirds of anything except mental arithmetic.

Don't push, let him find his own pace - just one thing, make sure he learns to read by phonics (sounding it out). Then he has the entire English language at his command. Don't fall for this "see and say" nonsense that tries to treat words like Chinese ideographs - each one an individual to be learned separately.

And have her read to him. There is no greater gift than a love a reading.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), March 19, 2002.

I agree with everyone else . . . children learn at their own pace. My now 12 1/2 year old didn't start reading until she was 8, which scared me to death. (I was reading well before kindergarten and was concerned that perhaps she had some sort of learning disability). Well, she reads at a 12th grade level now, and I often have to plead with her to put down the book at the dinner table.

Tell your friend to relax . . . "catching up" at this point just really isn't an issue. In fact, pushing too hard (even in a very gentle and supportive manner) is likely to lead to frustration and actually slow down the learning process.

M&M's are, as many have commented, an excellent and fun way to make some very abstract ideas a bit more concrete. When we first started with fractions, it was very difficult for my youngest to get the concept that 1/4 was greater than 1/6 because, of course, "6" was bigger than "4." After cutting (and eating) a few pizzas and pies, she soon got the idea. :-)

As for the ABC's, reading aloud to a child is probably the best way of instilling a life-long love of reading. The super simple beginning reader books are often so boring and so bland that it's little wonder that many children aren't interested in reading them.

It'll eventually start to click and your friend will be wondering why in the heck she ever worried about it. If a few years down the road her son is still having issues, then it may be that there is some sort of learning disability that can be addressed with specific teaching methods. Still, it's WAY to early to worry about that.

-- Julie Woessner (jwoessner@rtmx.net), March 19, 2002.

I to agree.

There is a tremendous push in this country to be 'ahead' when school starts. I even heard of a school that REQUIRED the child to count to 100, know his ABC's, his phone#, address all BEFORE entering kndergarten! Kindergarten used to be the placre kids got adjusted and ready for school, then preschool eased in as the 'norm' for getting ready.

My daughter knew very few of her ABC,s when she started kindergarten (She didn't care in the least). Now she is second grade, since Christmas she has read all four Harry Potter books(the last was 750 pages and 4th grade level) and 5 of the Little house series AND she read them alternately AND can tell you what is going on in each series. She isn't a genious, just decided she was ready and had some reason to want to read.

Another thing I always stressed as a preschool teacher was this: There is a differance between knowing this shape on the paper is called five and knowing that ***** is five things. It is more important that they have the oportunity to play with the concept of what five is rather than the shape on the page is. Sitting at a table memorizing doesn't build that long term comfort. But in everday play. For instance, I would sit on the floor and play Duplo's as a group, we would guess how many blocks we would need to stack to reach as high as the shelf (a short shelf so the numbers stayed in the 10 and under range), or susy get's all the reds, Johnny gets all the blues, and I get the greens, who got the most? We have four parts to the train so when all 4 are in the box then we know we have them al. "Today is my birthday, how old do you think I am?" "oh teacher you are so old you must be like 15 or 16!(or 99!)"etc. They play with these number ideas then the idea of what these numbers mean makes sense.

Sorry, this went a little longer than I meant. I hope it helps...

-- Novina in ND (homespun@stellarnet.com), March 19, 2002.

My boys were all late bloomers. I let them color and play but we did not start "formal" schooling until they were 7 and they did not read until they were 10. It was very nerve wracking because everybody else was giving us grief because they weren't "normal". I remember whe my oldst spent an entire summer dressed as Robin Hood and could tell you all about midevil England. The next summer it was Zorro and we were heartily sick of California history ( we lived in Ga at the time) and learning Spanish phrases. They were great auditory learners and I bought any and every story tape I could find, they watched a million National Geographic and Science videos and I read and read and read to them. We visited every park and museum I could find. When it finally clicked and they began to read, they jumped 3 grade levels in one year and LOVE school. I find many many children who are forced to start school early ( and 4-5 is too early IMO) are burned out by the 3rd grade. Lots of mom's that take their kids out of school for learning and behavior problems come to me and ask if I will take their kids--- I won't. I recommend that they homeschool their kids and start by pitching all academics for a few weeks and take on some kind of family project or unit study about someting the kid is very interested in. usually they put them back in school. We are still "behind" in spelling and grammer but I know very few adults who have mastered the proper use of a comma and I have taught them how to use a dictionary.... We decided early on that we had a choice. We could focus on character or academics. We felt we could ALWAYS catch up on academics but character is much harder to change.

-- Tana Mc (mcfarm@totelcsi.net), March 19, 2002.

Here is something from someone that actually went through the whole home schooling deal in person - I didn't go to school until I was 8 years old, and it never caused a problem.

My brother, sister, neighbour and I had one hour of "school work" a day, where we could choose which activity book to work in. I was never taught the alphabet, I had to learn it off by heart so that I knew how to do it when everyone else could. Same with counting. I couldn't let the others know something I didn't. I still remember when I finally got #'s, I called fifty fivedy, thirty threedy.

I also remember the day that I finally got addition. I kept on pestering my dad to make a "bigger one", so I could prove I could do it "bigger".

I was never! pressured into anything that I was not ready for, I never had to memorize anything before my mind was developed enough to understand the concepts.

I learned to read all by myself at 7-8 years old. I was tired of my dad stopping at the end of the chapter each night just when the story was getting exciting. I decided that I would learn how to read so that I could read on after he stopped. I have not stopped reading since.

I think the most important part of my education was learning to be a little kid with other little kids of various ages. I know for a fact that if I had gone to school and forced to learn stuff when I wasn't good and ready, I would have been stomped flat.

Don't give the kid a complex just because his brain has not developed at the "accepted" rate! It is impossible for a child to learn a concept before they are ready, they are only capable of memorization.

Chenoa

-- Chenoa (ganter@primus.ca), March 19, 2002.

Our son is 4 1/2 and we give no formal lessons here, each day's activities are a lesson. We talk about everything as we do it. I agree with the others, this is just too young to be pushing or worried about numbers like that. We're going to continue this method until he's at least 6 years old. When he shows an interest in something, we expand on it by including that subject in whatever we can. The number one thing you can do at this age is talk, talk, talk, all day long to them.

-- rose marie wild (wintersongfarm@yahoo.com), March 19, 2002.

Hi Jennifer, you have been given excellent information in the above answers! I am in complete agreement about relaxing, he is only 4.

Might I offer-- that your friend look beyond the current views regarding early education, and research the advisability of "formal early learning?" You will not find much in the way of research, historical evidence or plain common sense to support the current system of - early, early, early. An excellent book on this subject is Better Late Than Early, by Raymond & Dorothy Moore. It provides alot of research done in this area. Also it points out the unique and innate differences between boys and girls. When they learn, how they learn, etc.. it is worth looking in to. My best to your friend!

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), March 19, 2002.

My youngest had a similar problem until a grandparent gave us a used Sesame Street tape that counted to 3. He LOVED the music, played it several times a day, and in so doing taught himself not only how to play the VCR but also how to count to 3, and also that the number 3 meant 3 objects. He really prefers to learn in a rather unusual fashion, but that's just Jack. He learns best if his hands are involved. I'll have to remember that pizza trick: that is the sort of lesson he'll learn quickly with and they are just starting fractions. If he starts to struggle with fractions we'll just start cutting up pizza. Heck, maybe I'll give him a boost over the other kids and show him that this week: it's spring break and he LIKES pizza!

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), March 19, 2002.

OH! When he was learning his numbers but had PRETTY well gotten the hang of it, we practiced counting M&Ms and he ate what we counted. After we counted out a few different numbers I gave him the bag as it is hard for a small one to work long if there is candy involved. I don't know if it helped, but it didn't hurt. That was definately step 2, though: first he had to learn what numbers were or it wouldn't have worked at all.

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), March 19, 2002.

your friend should go to the library and read the books by raymond and dorothy moore. they are excellent books

-- elaine white (jewhite52@hotmail.com), March 19, 2002.

I am getting a kick out of all this M&M math!! My kids had what we caled "Hen House Math". They all learned to count getting eggs from the hen house and then recording the number on the calendar.... Course we rarely got over 14 in one day.

-- Tana Mc (mcfarm@totelcsi.net), March 19, 2002.

I homeschooled our girls for their entire 12 years of school. One, the oldest was reading, adding and all at 4 years old. I thought I was a super mom! The youngest only grunted until she was 7 years old. Worried sick about her! They are both away now at different Universities, the oldest studying Piano Performance at OSU and the youngest studing Nursing at Ok. Baptist University. Please...my point is that all children learn at different times and it all comes together. I think of all those years I waisted with them not having fun but forcing my younger one to read. By the way she did a 33 in English on the ACT and I doubt it had anything to do with me. I hope you and your friend just sit an enjoy your children. I once in awhile have the opportunity to talk to young moms and I do think you need a good course of study, but don't worry about when you read or write. Is it possible this child is into art at this time. Now..if mom sees a developmental problem she needs to get started. I spoke of college not to brag because I do not feel all people should go to college, the point was made that at 6 I was going crazy thinking she (the youngest) had problems but when it was "her time" she got her act together. Good Luck, Debbie in OK.

-- debbie (bwolcott@cwis.net), March 19, 2002.

Here's my .02 worth. :} Nascar racing. The cars all have numbers. He watches with Dad. Mom really doesn't care for it. So it's a guy thing. My grandson will tell you the car #, The driver. How many races he has won/lose. On and on. Same would work for sports or big trucks whatevery he and Dad are into. I have never met anyone who did not know their numbers. My twins started truly reading when they were........14yrs. Was I a wreck? YES! Did all my other children read at the normal time? YES. What got them to read? The computer. That was 8 months ago. Now they can out spell me any day. By the way, I graduated highshcool with a 3.8 gpa from calif. public school system in 1976. I taught my self how to really read and spell in 1985. I was 28 years old and tired of not understanding what I read. I was tested at a 4th grade level. :{ Pretty sad. Hope your friend and her son have lots of great fun with what ever he loves to do. The rest will follow. Sheila in Oregon

-- Sheila Baker (anyonamewilldo@aol.com), March 19, 2002.

I agree that most boys are late bloomers in most areas, I have had two girls and two boys. My six year old (boy) finally "caught on" reading and knowing numbers by telling me the number of runs on the back of his baseball cards!! :-) Find somthing that interests him, such as the Nascar idea and let your imagination run wild. Every child will not be super in all areas, but each will have his or her own little specialty. They truly learn at different rates and in their own way. I am currently homeschooling three-- boy 11, girl 9, boy 6. Have fun and relax :-)

-- Cheri in NY (t.asprion@worldnet.att.net), March 19, 2002.

may i suggest Home Education Magazine and the new Life Learning Magazines? I think you can find both on line. Part of the joy of homeschooling/life learning, in my opinion, is to allow your child to unfold at his or her own pace and NOT the pace society dictates. I am sure you guys weren't worrying if the kids weren't walking at 11 months when the neighbors' kids were, etc. Children ALL have different levels of learning, as well as different skills/gifts given to them. If tried to be forced to early, they often feel dumb, stupid, etc. and close down to this further. I know when I let my son talk me into letting him try real school, it happened. He decided he was dumb. He is back home, the pressure is off, and he reads all the time now, things that amaze me, though he claims to hate reading. We don't ever force him. On the other hand, he has developed a deep interest in ELECTRONICS which I know NOTHING about, though luckily my husband does. My son is just putting things together and figuring it out without much instruction. It is amazing what kids learn when they are ready, and humbling to realize how little our "teaching" is needed for common skills. Our "teaching" is more important in terms of encouragement and moral development, guidance, and making sure they have those enriched environments daily that allow them the opportunity to learn when they reach that stage of development, and not when we think they should.

Good luck on figuring this one out! It is very difficult to break through the bonds of society and think out of the box.

READ JOHN TAYLOR GATTO!!!! All of his writing is excellent, but especially important when exploring this is DUMBING US DOWN.

-- marcee (thathope@mwt.net), March 19, 2002.

I am a homeschooling mom and a licensed teacher. 4 is too young to sweat it and pushing him isnt going to do him any favors either. If she insists on working him she should be using TPR with him. Total Physical Response. GL

-- najia (najia274@yahoo.com), March 19, 2002.

Four is waaaaayyyy too young to expect anything academic. My daughter didn't know much at 4 - she was nowhere near ready to associate a symbol on a page with an abtract concept like a sound or a number of objects. Now she's 5 and reading (with phonics, thank you) and retaining what she learns quite nicely. I hope your friend isn't pushing academics on her kid so *she* can look good. I've known some who were very much into the "Well, at 2 1/2 my Johnny could....(fill in the blank)".

-- gita (gita@directcon.net), March 19, 2002.

Gita makes a good point. A lot of these "fast learners" grow up to be normal adults--the child prodigy effect is just that, it is there for a few years and then poof! you're grown up and people expect you to have a certain level of intelligence, you're no longer a novelty.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 19, 2002.

As an earlychildhood professinal, 4 is not to young to learn. Many of the great strides kids make are around 3. That is, if they are developmentally ready. I've had kids who read on the third grade level by age 7. It all depends on the kid. Boys usually develop slower.

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), March 20, 2002.

Remember, Albert Einstein was a "slow learner" (well, actually, a slow starter - he did sort of alright once he worked up a head of steam).

There's tremendous variability in when children are ready to progress to the next stage in their development;, and many different threads of development running in parallel. Whenever, whatever, most of it is normal. A "one size fits all" educational process is not really going to fit whoever is at the top and bottom 15% or 20% or so on whatever element we're looking at at the moment. That means most kids are bored and understimulated some of the time, and stressed and lost and feeling they're inadequate other times. I was blessed to be in a one- teacher country school for my primary years. Others home-school, as you do. However, parental involvement at home, either to challenge under-stimulated children or to do "make-up" work with ones who have been by-passed by the system, can do a lot.

HOWEVER, you just can't do "make-up" work until the child can cope with it; and trying to do so will make the child feel inadequate, defensive, and react against the subject - "I can't do that" for the rest of the child's life - ungood. If it's meaningless to the child then the child decides it's meaningless - reasonable.

You wouldn't expect a four-year old to be able to run one-hundred metres in fifteen seconds - same with mental activities. Don't push - let them find their own level, and progress at (reasonably close to) their own rate.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), March 20, 2002.