My daughter who is in sixth grade got suspended from school because she used self defense against another student. Apparently a 14 year old boy had been hitting her and her friends for a while. Last week he started hitting on them again and my daughter stood up to him and told him not to hit or bother them again. Of course this kid (who is on the verge on being expelled from school for the rest of the year) hit my daughter. He came to hit her again when she used self defense (kicked him in the ankle) to protect herself. My daughter has never been in trouble before and the school still suspended her for fighting. I talked to the Principal and I told her that what my daughter did was in self defense and not fighting. I have also told my daughter that self defense in Virginia public schools is not allowed. If someone hits her, she is to call me and I will come to the school with the authorities. Now what is strange is that my son who is in fifth grade had been kicked by another student the day before. When I inquired as to what the punishment was for this student, the principal stated that she had a conference with him and his parents. I asked why he wasn't suspended, being that they just suspended my daughter for kicking, and she stated because he is on medication. I told the principal that it shouldn't matter if a student is on medication all rules should apply equally or not at all. I also told her that at last check, kids on medication didn't get special privileges that allows them to harm or hurt others. My son was assaulted on the school bus last year (first day of school fourth grade) by a high school student. Apparently the high school student slammed my son's head into the metal side of the school bus, which caused not only a huge knot but a concussion as well. The only thing the school did was suspend the high school student off of the bus for 5 days. The high school principal stated that the school bus was not the same as school grounds, so the rules did not apply. I of course sought out the Juvenile authorities and the student had to attend an anger management class (which didn't do much good) . I plan on writing the Superintendent a nice long letter, but I know it will not do any good. It does no good to write the Virginia department of Education because they stated to me that it is a city school and they don't have any control over how the school operates. There is just no justice in the Public School system anymore. I am praying that this will be the last year my children attend this school.

Thanks for letting me vent. Rita

-- Rita (rlynchjarss@aol.com), March 26, 2002

Answers

I would ask the principal for all that in writing and see if the story changes .That is bull ----.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@hotmail.com), March 26, 2002.

I know that special education students can be punished as other students. But, there is something like eleven days in a row and they can not punish the student again. I forget. It has something to do with the special needs and the time in the regular classroom. I'll have to research this, my mind is not coming up with it. Yes, you will get action if you "squeek" in the right places. You have more power than you know. I think you have the right to apeal a decision to suspend, with the school board. I'm rusty in this area. I'll check, because I am in VA. Please remember to document everything...I mean everthing. Also use the chain of command. Revisit the principal, document, revisit the teacher involved, document, VISIT the superintedent in PERSON. Keep your cool, but stand your ground. Good Luck Julie

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), March 26, 2002.

I agree with Patty,I would ask for it in writing. If you can't get this resolved with the principal then climb the ladder. Write your letter to the Superintendent and whoever else you can think of including the members of the school board and then wait a week,call them and ask them how they intend to resolve the issue. Good luck and keep us updated.

-- LaDena,Tx9 (littledena77458@yahoo.com), March 26, 2002.

Rita,

Your last two sentences say it all. There is no justice is public schools, and you pray it is their last year in school.

Take them out and teach them yourself if at all possible. From everything I have been reading lately things in schools are only getting worse. If you are uncertain about homeschooling, there is a lot of support to be found everywhere nowdays. A lot of it is right here on this forum.

Julie, teachers are not the ones who set the policies in the schools. They just have to enforce them. No matter how a good a teacher you may be, you have your hands tied by their stupid rules. It is difficult to succeed in teaching with one hand tied behind your back. I have a sister and brother in law in public education, so I have an idea of what really goes on behind the scenes. I really have to admire someone like you who is trying, against all the obstacles placed their by administrators and school boards, to teach the children.

God bless you both.

Talk to you later.

-- Bob in WI (bjwick@hotmail.com), March 26, 2002.

Rita Your post is another reason i beleave in Homeschooling!!How is your move coming? Your in my Prayers !! Grizz!

-- Grizz workin near D.C. (southerneagle@yahoo.com), March 26, 2002.

Bob: I just mentioned to document what the teacher saw. Period. Geez.Trust me, I know the responsiblities of teachers.

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), March 26, 2002.

Special Ed kids can often be punished wrongly, too, because they cannot articulate what happened as well as the other students can, and if the parents aren't up on their rights regarding disabled children, things get worse.

My friend's son was in that situation, and his mother couldn't rationally discuss things, but didn't tell his father until after the incident, who could have, so the son was punished for doing something (writing something in a story or doodling) he didn't have the mental capability of understanding the consequences of.

Another friend's DD had the unfortunate experience in high school of some boy who was pinching them in inappropriate places in swimming class. She of course went to her teacher (a man in this case), and he did nothing. Other girls were also having this happen, and were afraid to speak up until DD said she was going to. But it was like pulling teeth to get anything done--the boy was suspended, and the teacher was given a reprimand. Now they wouldn't have had this problem at all if the class were girls only or boys only--it can be hard to see under water, I admit. But, common sense is an uncommon virtue in schools today.

Rita, I can not believe the argument that school buses are not student grounds--when I was in school, as long as you were engaged in some school-related activity (band, sports, field trips) ALL of the school rules applied, because the students are representing the good name of the school. I think most schools are still that way.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 26, 2002.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I called the Superintendents office to schedule a meeting to discuss when and to whom the school rules apply. I will let you know what happens although I do not believe it will be resolved. Julie, the teacher was no were around. She left the children unattended, she could not wait to check her mailbox in the school office. My children have been attending this school for three years. In these three years, it has been a total nightmare. Incidents ranging from assault on my child to teachers making racial remarks and bringing ouija boards to school for the children to play with to children defecating on themselves and the parents not being called. All of these Incidents were reported to all the proper authorities involved who choose not to investigate, or retired the teacher from the public school system. I have "squeaked in the right places" with no success. I do have letters from the Virginia Department of Education stating they can do nothing and that I should bring the matter to the attention of my local school, in which I did and I have never received any response to any of my concerns. I even reported the Teacher making racial remarks to the appropriate government agency and they ignored the situation. Grizz, my move could not happen fast enough for me. I will be closing on the house very soon and I am starting my own home based business. If my business takes off, I hope to be out of Virginia and in South Dakota by August :-) Bob I could not agree with you more. I plan on homeschooling my children but I need another year so I can fix up a house that I am buying and get my business up and running. I use to homeschool and I only enrolled them into public school after being pressured by my family (whose opinion means nothing to me anymore) to do so. These past few years have shown that the public school system is harmful to a child's education and well being.

Rita

-- Rita (rlynchjarss@aol.com), March 26, 2002.

Rita, chalk this up as just *another* reason to homeschool. You can make the rounds and try to obtain satisfaction from the administrative system, but that isn't a solution to your problem. As a "solution" it is predicated on working within a system that is NOT broken, as many assume, but actually working perfectly. Read anything by John Taylor Gatto on this subject. In fact, you can start with this, a speech he gave to the Vermont HomeSchooling Conference:

http://users.erols.com/philkent/EducationGattoPublicEducation.htm

If you ever engage in debate on the nature and value of what I commonly refer to as the "publik fool system" or have to defend your decision to homeschool, you should obtain a copy of Mr. Gattos' book, "The Underground History of American Education." Find it here:

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/

Your experiences with student violence and the non-accountability of the administrators should be instructive. Use this experience to speed the process of removing your children from this abusive system. In later years your children will arise and call you blessed. We homeschool our children, and I am quite sure that my wife, who *merely* has a high school education will provide our children with a far superior education. Superior to what, you might ask? Superior to any of the known alternatives. Who wins? Our children, by receiving a superior education.

Julie- I would also encourage you to obtain a copy of Mr. Gattos' book. If you are intellectually honest, after checking the references in this book, you'll either become a "guerilla" teacher or get out of the business altogether. Really. I encourage you to give it a read. If you don't wish to purchase it, you can probably get it through your library.

Oh, and Julie... before you spout off again about being a professional you might want to do a bit of research on the meaning of the word. Historically, professions were those areas of endeavor which required a lifetime of study and practice in order to master. Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, Priests and Warriors were considered professionals, because they *practiced* in their respective fields, which were acknowledged to be fields that required a lifetime of study to master. Teaching children was traditionally done either by parents or tutors, and was not considered difficult to do, just tedious.

-- Gunnar Ericson (gunnar@yifan.net), March 26, 2002.

Rita, I hope you reassured your daughter that she did the RIGHT thing (defending herself), even though it got her suspended.

She needs to know that whatever stupid thing the school does, that you support her and that she was not at fault in any way. Hopefully you did not punish her.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 26, 2002.

Gt, Yes, I did reassure my daughter that she was right in defending herself but at the same time we discussed how she would handle the situation if it happened again. She knows to walk away if possible, report it immediately and to call me at home. I also have instructed my children to use self defense if they are in a situation that they cannot walk away from.

Rita

-- Rita (rlynchjarss@aol.com), March 26, 2002.

Praise your daughter and let her teach your son how to stick up for himself. I'm glad your daughter didn't listen to what you told her and stood up for herself. I don't remember anyones mother having to talk to the principal about their child being struck when I was in school, over 30 years ago. Don't these other children have parents and why haven't you contacted them?

-- Emil in TN (eprisco@usit.net), March 26, 2002.

Emil, That was 30 years ago and things have most definitely changed since then. I believe self defense should only be used in situations that warrant it. If my child can walk away without being struck that's what I want them to do. I believe in my daughters case she was just tired of this student hitting her and she fought back, but at the same time she could have walked away. I did punish my daughter for one day because she never made me aware of the situation.Yes, I'm sure these children have parents but what would it resolve for me to have a conversation with them? When I speak to the Principal about these incidents I'm usually told the kid has either social or family problems. If the school administrator does not step in to correct the situation, what exactly am I supposed to do? They make their own rules and polies and making exceptions to certain students is unjust.If a student's behavior cannot be controled then that student should be removed from public school. I agree with most of the previous post, the only real solution will be to homeschool my children.

-- Rita (rlynchjarss@aol.com), March 26, 2002.

Rita, good luck! I sincerely hope you will find happiness in your move. The school system there sounds like a total nightmare. It makes me sick to realize that there are parents that don't teach their children that it's wrong to hurt others.

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), March 26, 2002.

GOOD FOR HER, AND CALL YOUR LAWYER a civil law suit, will be great. ralph.

-- Ralph Roces (rroces1@yahoo.com), March 26, 2002.

Teachers ARE professionals, teaching 24 six your olds IS difficult, not just tedious; and like in any other profession SOME teachers are not good at their job. Like everyone else who has gone through the public school system I have known both wonderful teachers and awful ones. As for todays problem at hand.....GO GET'EM, RITA!!!!!

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), March 26, 2002.

Rita years ago we had alot of problems with our public school,not getting much satisfaction by talking to the school employees I called my sister who was teaching in another town at the time,she told me to call the state superintendent,didnt work so she said call your senator,it worked.The schools dont want government officals in their face.

-- willa in IL. (goodall6@hotmail.com), March 26, 2002.

Another option is calling your local newspaper/TV station--they love stories like this, and schools (remember, some of those people like the state superintendent and school board members are elected officials) HATE THEM because it makes schools look bad and other options-- parochial schooling, homeschooling--look GOOD.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 26, 2002.

Just another horrendous example of this "political correctness" idiocy that rules the country these days.

Real-world common sense has not been a part of school systems for many, many years, but it hasn't been a part of government or most other aspects of life either.

Ever since the school shootings, total overreaction is the order of the day and school administrators are even stupider than they've always been -- and they've alway been some of the stupidest, most unrealistic pretenses of a human brain on earth.

Your tax dollars pay for that school and you shouldn't have to pay for public schooling and at the same time have to go to the extreme extra burden of duplicating it yourself at home.

You should talk to newspaper and TV reporters, lawyers, the school superintendant and anyone else who'll listen.

In short, raise all the hell you can to shake that idiocy to it foundations.

The fools who set these unbelievably dumb policies must be stopped before they destroy our entire way of life.

You're dealing with bureaucracy here -- one of the greatest evils on earth.

-- Hank in Oklahoma (hbaker@ipa.net), March 26, 2002.

Rita, Stick to your guns, never back down. There are many good teachers out there and some who do not belong anywhere near a classroom. The same goes for administrators. We have tried to be objective in dealing with the local school system and have had some success, but it did not come easy. Once they learn you mean business and will not tolerate the typical run around you will find results are easier to come by. We hold our children responsible for their actions and do the same with the school system. Educators complain about the lack of parental involvement but become resentful when you do take an active interest, or worse yet question their methods. If you give in to the system you are not only perpetuating the problem, you will set a poor example for your daughter . Don't be afraid to go over the heads of anyone who gives you mindless lip service. As a taxpayer and a parent you have more influence then you are aware of. Don't be afraid to exercise it.

-- JJ Grandits (JJGBDF@aol.com), March 26, 2002.

When my kid was still in public school and had bully trouble, I informed her, the teacher and the principal that she was to take down the bully. If she were to get suspended for it, we would take the opportunity to go to the zoo, eat ice cream and do other fun things.

She was in 1st grade and took down the 3rd grade bully. All the kids said it was great but I never heard a word from the school about it. We homeschool now.

Enjoy the suspension time with your kids. Pull them ALL out of school for this suspension time and go do something fun! Tell your daughter congratulations for taking care of a problem all on her own!

-- Laura S. (LadybugWrangler@somewhere.com), March 26, 2002.

Ralph is right get you a lawyer and file a civil suite against ever one envolved. that what it takes to get their attention. Bob se,ks.

-- Bobco (bobco@kans.com), March 26, 2002.

When my son was a HS freshman some sophomores decided to single him out and pick on him. He was a big kid and not the type to get into a fight so he presented an appealing target. He asked me what to do about it. Before I could answer his sister, who was a junior at the time, said she'd take care of the problem and to just tell her who the miscreants were.

You can imagine my son's response to his sister. She remained steadfast that she could handle it so, not having a great answer for him myself, I told my son to let her try.

Much to my son's amazement, the next day these guys were giving him a very wide path. He told me about this so I had to ask my daughter what she said to these two to get them to stop. "Oh, I didn't say anything to them at all. I just told some of my guy friends (a couple senior all-state footballers and an all-America HS wrestler) that some kids were picking on my brother. and I didn't know what to do. They handled it from there." And then, to her brother, "See? I told you I'd take care of it." ;o) I could just picture my 6' beauty batting her eyes as the damsel in distress to these hulks who'd walk through walls for a smile from her.

My point to this story to you might be to consider enlisting the assistance of an older (a/k/a bigger, stronger, tougher) kid to "take care" of the problem. It worked here. Good luck. I hope this helps.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), March 26, 2002.

Rita, this is one thing that really gets my dander up. It should be equal punishment for everyone. The situation you have is the very reason I homeschooled my daughter. Kids start getting mean-mouthed and snotty in middle-school. They seem to delight in making anyone who does not fit in their elite group miserable. Go to your local TV station or radio station and see if they will include it in their newscast. Did the boy get suspended too?

-- Sheila in NC (nannie@intrstar.net), March 26, 2002.

Rita,

I fomerly taught special education in the state of Virginia for 8 years. Previous to that I taught in NYS and was on a local school board there. From my experiences I can tell you that first of all, whenever 2 students partake in agressive physical behavior such as fighting, both students are suspended from school. This policy is usually mentioned in the school's parent handbook handed out at the beginning of the year. Before I go on, I need to mention to those not familiar with the VA education system that there are no small town schools, all the schools are county wide and therefore have a large number of students in their schools. Typical numbers are between 700-1,000 students in a school at one time. Now, when you have that many students in a school you can imagine the problems that would happen.

I am a little confused about the situation pertaining to your son and the other student who was not suspended because he was on medication. Are you aware that the principal revealed to you confidential information about the student? I can't imagine an administrator breeching confidentiality. But then again, ever go to the local Wal-Mart or watering hole and listen to school employees talk? I have not ever heard of that reasoning before, not suspending because a child was on medication.

Even children or students in special education can be suspended from school for their behaviors. The maxium amount is 11 days. Then depending on the circumstances, etc. a special education student can be suspended form school for the remainder of the year, provided the schools holds a causal meeting. I think its referred to another name now. However, the school still must provide services. So, the other child who was on medication rightfully should be suspended as well. Schools get very compliant when the "L" word is mentioned. And I have worked with several teachers and administrators throughout VA that have not agreed with the special education discipline regulations handed down from the federal government under IDEA. Many have said, and I concur, that someday a parent of a student in regular education is going to sue over their child's rights being violated.

The situation regarding the bus reminds me of a similiar situation on the bus that happened with the last county school system I worked for in VA. It was a big mess. The end results in situations where fighting or assult happens is the parents can or the student, if old enough, can press charges against the offending student.

You have some options I think, however, in order to resolve this situation you must first go up through the chain of command. You start with DOCUMENTATING everything, even recording if necessary. I have sat in on some meetings with such circumstances, but not related to fighting. You need time, dates, witnesses, etc and then you go to the school administrator or principal, if you do not get a response that is satisfactory, then continue to the next level, the superintendent. Should that not work, then call the school clerk and place yourself on the agenda for the next school board meeeting. You must work up through the channels. Its not that the state education department can't or won't do anything, they need these situations to go through correct procedures as spelled out under the law. Once you have gone through the channels and exhausted your local options then you contact the state department of education representative. Yes, even city schools come under the scrutiny of the state education department. The state holds each school accountable.

I really feel for you and your children, public schools are no longer the safe places they used to be. This is very frustrating and one of the reasons many parents homeschool. I see many children fall through the cracks in the system. If you need any specific information and I can help, please feel free to e-mail me. Good Luck, and make sure you document everything.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), March 26, 2002.

Gunnar: Where in this post did I say anything about being a "professional"? I think you are just pickin'. I gave her sound advice. And as far as a lifetime of learning...if I have to tell you, you don't know. Julie

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), March 27, 2002.

Professional - A member of any profession, anyone who makes a living by arts, sports, etc., in which AMATEURS engage. New Webster's Expanded Dictionary. lol

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), March 27, 2002.

what a can of worms. to the one who said meanness starts ijn middleschool-bull. it starts in headstart. or prek, or kindergarten, as soon as the kids are in school there will be another kid whose parents aren't raising them the way you raise yours and they are cruel, hateful brats who will do anything to hurt someone they can. many reasons for this-i think we know them. my son is a big kid and was bullied in headstart by a smaller kid because we had taught him not to hit children smaller than him, or girls. after he came home with bruises and i asked where the marks came from, i told him to tell that kid that if he messed with him again he was going to knock the dog out of him. jess did and ended the problem. this year (1st grade) a high schooler was assigned to sit beside him on the bus after the older kid was moved from the back of the bus for causing problems. of course, he started bullying my son and my son fought back as well as he could against a child 8 or 9 years older. when he got off the bus in tears with a bruised wrist from the kid bending it backward, i called the driver, complained and the kid was off the bus for 9 weeks. all of my kids have been told they are never to start a fight, and to avoid trouble makers. they are supposed to tell me when they experience a problem and i talk to the teachers, but i also tell my kids they will NOT get punished by us if they are defending themselves. i am very into my kids days at school and try to find out if they are having problems. i deal with them as soon as i find out. we have very few problems. small school system, and i let the teachers know my views the first couple of weeks.

-- laura (okgoatgal@hotmail.com), March 27, 2002.

I am a public school teacher so know I dont say this lightly.

Two words:

Home School

-- Najia (najia274@yahoo.com), March 27, 2002.

DITTO!!!!! my daughter got sent home 2nd grade, she wore a camo shirt to school, " IT PROMOTES VIOLENCE" Sounds like the Principal Never hunts for his food. It was a camo with an Old Navy emblem on it, GET REAL

-- Sue in PA (suelpn30@hotmail.com), March 27, 2002.

And your not homeschooling YET!!!!

-- Lou Ann in KY (homes_cool@msn.com), March 27, 2002.

Remember all this when some dimwit says "...but what about the socialization...?" after you're homeschooling. Attaining proper "socialization" is the main reason WHY we homeschool; teaching a child that it is ok to assault someone if you're on drugs, but NOT ok to defend yourself, is not good "socialization." Our public schools are nothing but holding pens for the creation of a docile and unthinking workforce. I am old enough that when I went to school, teenage children could go to the hardware store, sign a roster (you were supposed to be "over 18") and buy dynamite. They could purchase "assault rifles" via mail order with absolutely no registration or paperwork, and we routinely took rifles and shotguns to school so we could go hunting after school. As long as the truant officer got some of the bounty, and the students in question were managing to make good grades, there were no "problems" with such behavior, although I'm sure it was against official policy. Despite all the "easy availability" of weapons, and the fact that every male I knew carried a pocket knife (and by the time you were in high school it was likely a case 2-blade 4" folder in a belt sheath), I never heard of any weapons used in fights, or even to threaten anyone, and although lots of innocent tree stumps experienced the wrath of bored farm boys and their dynamite, I never heard of a school or other place being "bombed" or even any accidents with it. Our schools are teaching children to be as irresponsible as their environment will "let" them, such that the ONLY reason they don't shoot each other isn't self-control or responsiblity, it is the slim protection of a metal-detector.

I used to go to the public schools to do drug-awareness and tobacco talks, but I won't even set foot in one now. The funny thing is that of the kids I was friends with, and took guns to school to go shooting later with, NONE have been in trouble with the law, and in fact they not only include a lawyer, but several successful businessmen, teachers, and physicians. We'd all have been expelled and arrested if we went to school in recent times.

Andrew Indiana

-- Andrew Johnstone (AJMD@KeepAndBearArms.com), March 30, 2002.