We've found a place in ID that seems to be just what we've been looking for EXCEPT it is only 750 sq. ft. It has 1 bedroom and 1 bath. There is a 20 x 40 shop/barn too. It looks great, but with 3 little boys, can we do it?? I figure anything is possible if we really want it but I want to be realistic too. We bought a 1000 sq. ft. dome before the boys were born and have lived here ever since with no problem. What do you think?

Penny

-- Penny (drewbange@pa.net), April 03, 2002

Answers

Sure, you could do it. I bought a 600 sq ft house from a woman who, along with her husband, had raised 5 kids in the house. They were just very efficient about keeping things organized.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), April 03, 2002.

A prisoner lives in 60 square feet and a sailors learns to live in an even smaller space. It just takes organization, On advantage of confined spaces is that once organized, they are easier to keep that way.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), April 03, 2002.

You can do it. Are the boys big enough for hammocks in the living room or something like that? The space outside will take up for the lack of space inside. Provide a play place in the shop for rainy days and go for it.

-- Robin Downing (Southpawrobin1@aol.com), April 03, 2002.

Yep, but you'll go nuts.

-- lynne (notatthis@time.com), April 03, 2002.

When you homestead you don't spend much time indoors anyway - even in the winter! You just have to organinze your space, be sure everyone has enough inside activites, and be tolerant and respectful of each other. You might even be able to covert some of that shop space into a room at some point also. You can also always add on in time. At least this is a start toward your dream. Don't wait around for the "perfect" place only to lose the dream in the process.

-- Karen (mountains_mama2@hotmail.com), April 03, 2002.

How big are most city units? And you've got all of outdoors for them to play in during good weather - an advantage city units don't have. Your house is almost the same size as the barn - as Karen said, arrange some under-cover play area so the kids can hang-out there, or even so you can hang the kids out there (and give you under-cover hanging space for clothes as well during wet weather - that's going to be important with THREE boys).

I don't think it's going to be enough long-term. You certainly can't have three teenage sons sleeping in the living room. You need to plan as a minimum to wall off one end of the barn as a bunk-room, or make an extension to the house, or something. You may need to be ready, if events become pressing, to get hold of an old no-longer-weatherproof or roadworthy caravan, and park it in the barn. Or even pitch a tent in the barn - if the tent is out of the weather, it should be quite acceptable for a while. However, you can get started with what you've got/are getting, while the boys are young.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), April 03, 2002.

Good advice! If it were me, I would put the boys in the bedroom, and get an air-mattress or some kind of foam matttress for the Living room for you and your husband. This way the kids can go to bed early and you will have more quiet time in the evening or during naps etc... We had friends who did exactly this for 3 years until they could add on a room.

-- Melissa in SE Ohio (me@home.net), April 03, 2002.

I remember growing up in a very small "bungalow" house. My parent's did add on another bedroom and a bigger livingroom but yet Mom was very tidy and neat too !! Something I did not inherit from her. It was still a very small house but my parents were always concerned with their budget and taxes and this is what they could afford. We were at least in the country and out of the city. I think you will be fine. Plan on building on in the next couple of year. Living where you want is more important that the size of the house. Good Luck !!!

-- Helena (windyacs@npaccc.net), April 03, 2002.

When our kids (we have three) were young(2,3 and 7) we move to the farm. Our house was 24x24 ft. It was divide into for rooms with the chimmey in the center of the house (with a hole for in each room for small wood stoves. No bathroom, not much of a kitchen (no cabinets).We went to work covering the holes of the chimmey in three of the rooms and but up bricks on the wall of the fourth for safety resons.Beleive me one wood stove in a house this size will run you out unless it terrible cold!LOL) We used bunkbeds for the kids "room", made boxes that rolled underneath for clothes and toys! Put a shelf all the way around each room about 1' down from the ceiling for collectibles/pictures. We purchased bath fixtures from a local camper/travel trailer place (they are very small and use very little water). We also put an 'on demand' water heater takes up much less space and energy. It wasn't always easy. When the weather was bad for several days at a time and the kids couldn't play outside, they would get 'cabin fever'. When company came to visit we din't have many place to sit except the dining table. Just adopt the additude "that you'll never go to bed mad". It made us much closer as a family!!!Good luck.

We lived there for three years. We moved into a 2700 square foot house. My son who had been two when we moved into our little house cried every night for weeks wanting to go back "home" he didn't like "this big ole house"!

-- Debbie T in N.C. (rdtyner@mindspring.com), April 03, 2002.

i would put a bunkbed set, or two or one that stacks 3 in the bed room. or a loft for all 3 to sleep in and save the floor space. i would get a really good sofa bed for the living room and sleep on that. or you could put the loft in the living room.... which ever you could do it and it would look and work great. being very well organized would be the key.

-- js (schlicker54@aol.com), April 03, 2002.

I think the big issue is how is the 750sqft used. If its chunked into little bitty sized rooms then its going to get croweded. If its an open plan it might be usable but I am thinking its to small. I would be concerned about the 1 bedroom issue. Some "welfare" codes require 1 bedroom for a the boys, one for the girls and 1 for the adults. In your case min 2 bedrooms. Our home is larger, a little over twice the size of yours and we have only 3 people. I wouldnt want a smaller house for us. People need personal space and time.

Can it be done, maybe. would I want to do it, No!

-- Gary (gws@columbus.rr.com), April 03, 2002.

I'm sort of flabbergasted by some of the answers. Of course you can live in a 750 sq ft house!!! In most countries, that would be a palace.

For 6 years I lived in a 16x20 ft house (320sq ft). Brought my daughter up there for 2 years and babysat 4 other kids on a regular, day to day basis.

When we moved to our underground house, it was 14x28 feet (392 sq ft) for three of us....no electricity or running water. We built on as we earned money. 15 years later it is 1750 sq feet and PLENTY big enough.

My daughter has been building her own house out at the edge of the garden. It is 14x24 feet with a loft(504 sq ft). If she gets married and has kids, she can just add on. http://www.homestead.com/peaceandcarrots/HeathersHouse.html

-- Peace and Carrots Farm, Vermont (wsm311@aol.com), April 03, 2002.

Wow, interesting thread. Lots of good suggestions here. I love the lofting all the beds idea.......wish I had thought of that when myself and three children lived in smaller space than that for a while. You didn't mention how "little" the boys were. Old enough to sleep higher up?? Another option would be fotons (spelling) that could be placed on the floor or play benches at night and stored up during the day. In likely 75% of the world the space you are describing would be like a mansion. I use Don's caravan (camper trailer) idea myself to add "living" space to our small home. My grain mill, basketing supplies, soap making stuff and numerous other homesteading "tools" are stored and used most of the year there. We also use one for a "guest house".

Never let people's negative reponses divert you from your dreams. I have some very old letters written by my homesteading ancestors that are so wonderful to read. They often spent their early years in a one room home. While I was in Haiti I was gifted with the insight of how truly wealthy we are here in the United States. Even our poorest folks live better than the richest villager in the village where I stayed. Best of luck to you if you decide to persue this venture!!!

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), April 03, 2002.

This is great! I am encouraged that we can do this. The boys are all under 8, so they don't take up much room yet. We figure we would give them the bedroom and we'll put our futon in the living area. Our dome has a bunkbed that is 3 high in the loft. When they were babies, we just built a "gate" for the front with old crib sides. They would be okay in this new place 3 high as long as they have a railing.

I love the optimism you people have. Thanks for the encouragement. I remember being in Mexico and seeing the little, and I mean little, houses that they all live in. Hammocks for beds, dirt floors, no running water...I just needed a reminder. My Pap lived on a ship for 2 years and the only stories he ever told were good ones.

Keep it coming. We really appreciate what you all have to say.

Penny and Drew

-- Penny (drewbange@pa.net), April 03, 2002.

When I was in high school, my family lived in a 2 bedroom house. There were my parents, my brother and myself. For a while I got the other bedroom and my brother slept on the fold out couch. Then, we brought the 32 ft RV home and that became my "room".

I like the "bunkhouse" idea someone had for the barn. As the boys got older that might work out great. My son (13 years old) keeps asking me if he can sleep in the dog house with our two dogs. It's a big dog house. He would LOVE to have his own place in a barn.

In another house we lived in when I was younger, my brother and I often slept in the attic just for fun. To get into the attic, you had to go outside the house, climb the extension ladder, lift the attic door, prop it open, and then go in.

One thing to watch out for: if your kids go to public school, you might run into a problem if they go and say things about how they sleep in the barn or wherever. Some people might not understand.

Kind of like the time when my daughter was 4 and announced at the church potluck (daddy was pastor there too) "Look Mom, greasy ol' fried chicken" We had just recently been telling the kids that we'd been eating too much "greasy ol' fried chicken" and that even though we really liked it, it wasn't good for us. So, we had to explain that she was Really complimenting the food.

-- Lav, Central Maryland (lavenderbluedilly@hotmail.com), April 03, 2002.

i admire you!!! i went crazy with two kids in a 750 sq ft apt, but i also hated my job (army-60+hrs a week) and the apt. so that was a big part of it and it was poorly organized and too much junk. i agree with the ones who said organize it from the get go and use the under bed boxes, etc. look at building sites and such for old school lockers, gym lockers, for clothes, kitchen storage-my dad got some for me to use in the kids rooms. great!! let us know how it goes!! keep the kids busy-don't let them be idle or they will get into more trouble. have a good adventure.

-- laura (okgoatgal@hotmail.com), April 03, 2002.

I don't think anyone here was being negative. They were just being reasonable. In regards to the question- of course you can, but why put yourselves in that position if it's avoidable? Unless it's temporary, that's not really a healthy situation for 3 kids and 2 adults, whether it's been done or being done by others. Yes, in some countries and in the past here those situations were neccesary but they aren't anymore here. Not when there's many options to build low cost living space. It's also illegal in most areas of the US to have a living arrangement like that now. I'm not saying I agree with those laws but I'd find another solution before I put my family at risk like that. Depending on the layout, maybe you could partition another bedroom in there, even if it's very small. Putting on an addition could be done low-cost and would be money well spent.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 03, 2002.

I would add a bed room and bath right away. You will need it sooner or later so why wait. If the roof is steep enough you could add a dormer with a bath above the other. It would be money well spent. If you can afford it go with a full second floor doubling the size of your house.

-- ed (edfrhes@aol.com), April 03, 2002.

Back in the sixties when my brother came back from overseas to Ft Leonardwood, he couldn't get base houseing right away and lived in a eight foot by thirty foot trailer for over a year. And two hundred years ago the average frontier cabin was 12 by 12. We lived 20 years in a 24 by24 shack and raised a family. If you have to do it you can. At least you have a place to LIVE. Not just exist.

-- Butch (beefarm@scrtc.com), April 03, 2002.

My sister's family was in a 3 bedroom apartment that probably wasn't much larger before they bought their first home. There was 4 kids (under 7) and two adults. The thing that really bothered her was no acess to outside play areas. She appreciates her house but treasures her yard. We are planning on building a small home(800 ft) this summer(as soon as we can sell this big place), so I find this thread interesting. I am paring down on our "stuff" and looking into organisation. The one extra I envision us building the following year is a summer kitchen where a lot of canning and food processing supplies can be stored. Good luck!

-- Terri in NS (terri@softkits.com), April 03, 2002.

Dave, I have never heard of it being illegal if you own the property, a lot of people do it. No landlord with any brains would rent to someone in that situation, though--too much wear and tear on the property.

I applaud you, Penny, for trying to live within your means rather than apply for low-cost housing.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 03, 2002.

This is my first post on here. I just found this BBS and cant believe how friendly and helpful you all are to one another. Just thought I would put my two cents in on this. I agree that 750 sq ft is adequate but tiny and I think the real issue is that the boys will need space of their own as they grow older. Perhaps the best solution is to build what the french call a Garconiere...the cajuns have them too. Its a seperate little house for the boys of the family and it can also double as a guest house. You can add it on to the house or build it as a seperate structure in the yard. If you go to this url www.geocities.com/theatrerb/GARCONIERE.bmp Ive posted a little design I made that might be a solution for you. Its a 10 x 22 shed roof structure that can be divided into 3 rooms 7 x 10 with large pocket doors or left as one large space. Each space has a built in single or double bed, you choose, with drawers and storage cubbies underneath. Each space has a door to the outside and a barn sash over the bed for cross ventilation. I used some old french doors I had so it looks a bit grand, but you could use what ever you could get. I built this as a pole building with a raised platform floor and conventional framing. Mine is heated with a little boxwood stove but you could use two electric baseboards for safety. Feel free to use the design as it is or as a springboard for your own ideas. You could even build this onto one end of your barn, and save on all those french doors and such....I'd make the windows over the bed bigger then. Good luck with your plans and take the plunge you wont regret it.

Mark

-- mark chenail (chenail@uiuc.edu), April 03, 2002.

Dave, I would be interested in knowing what you are talking about in regards to the laws. Never heard of it, unless you are talking about public, low-cost housing. In that case they have some rules about separate bedrooms for boys and girls over certain ages, which I actually think has more to do with protecting the housing authorities than the children; but as always.....I could be wrong. If that is actually the case, well I guess a very great many people of limited means are in violation of the law, particularly those who chose to not participate in public welfare. Around here we call them the working poor.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), April 03, 2002.

Diane, a lot of middle class people live that way too--not everyone thinks that each child is "entitled" to his/her own bedroom, phone, TV set, etc. :-) Bigger house, or money for private school or other enriching activities, for example.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 03, 2002.

well I didn't write the laws. From what I know, social services has a problem with that and all it takes is a bad neighbor or someone to start trouble for you. I know quite a few people with those living situations. It's no big deal most of the time but it leaves you open to scrutiny and who wants to chance getting involved with that kind of mess? My kids have always shared a room too and probably will for another few months. The place I have now isn't much more than 750 sq ft.

I was just giving a suggestion that maybe for little to nothing cost, you could put on a simple room addition and it'd be worth it. Especially in an area with no zoning hassles. It doesn't take much to put 3 small walls, floor and roof onto the side of a house. A 12x12 addition can be finished in a few days when you don't need to worry about permits and regulations. My main point was that for a little effort and not much money, you could find a better solution than packing yourselves in that tight. I'm sure the adults and the kids would find that better if it's possible.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 03, 2002.

I actually think it is to small for "forever". Will you be able to save and add a bedroom on? We moved out to the woods and built our house out of pocket, with 3 children under 8, we lived in a bumper pull 1 bedroom travel trailer, we did build an 8 by 16 screened in porch for the kids to play in when it rained outside. No electricty for the first year. Our house is 40 by 48 and was truly a palace compared to the trailer!

I would be concerened with play space, here in Texas it simply rains way to often not to have someplace for the kids to play. As I rolled up all the beds each morning I could look out the window and see that progress was being made on the house, without that ray of hope, I wouldn't want to live in a house that small. Before you know it the kids are much older than 8 :) Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (Nubians) (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 03, 2002.

I once lived in a tiny Manhattan apartment that had a murphy bed. For those who don't know - a murphy bed folds up into the wall so you have more floor space. I even had a pop down table table attached to the bottom of the bed board that I could open when the bed was up. The former tenant had built it - he was a carpenter so it was custom designed, but I'm sure you could find plans on line in cyberspace. I say go for it - the worst that will happen is you will hurry to add on another room. And remember - the more space we have the more stuff we will fill it with. Best of luck.

-- (greenwitch@catskillnativenursery.com), April 03, 2002.

My aunts family of 5 (three kids and two adults) grew up in a 10X55 trailer. Later when I went to college I joined them for a year. It was crowded but we always got along. During the warm summer nights my cousins and I would sleep outside on the patio. Lots of happy memories there ! WE had running water, and electric but no air conditioning or hot water in the trailer. Outside temps would get over 100 degrees sometimes so you can imagine the inside temp of a metal walled trailer. The wash house of the trailer park had hot water so in the mornings my cousin and I hauled water so my aunt could take a hot bath before going to work. My uncle had done lots of carpentry inside, like bunk beds for the girls, to make it more effecient. Like I said, we all got along...even with 4 girls/women trying to use one bathroom. You know better than anyone the personality of your family. I, too, would build on if possible but if the land is what you want I say go for it girl ! Good luck.

-- cindy palmer (jandcpalmer@sierratel.com), April 03, 2002.

All of the other posters have left such warm and fuzzy replies that I hate to be the reality check here but my family of 5 (3 boys) lives in a 700 sf house. It sucks. We are on top of eachother and on a bad day the boys try to kill eachother. We are not all borne into Norman Rockwell type homes. I personally need some of my own space and 140 sf per person doesnt get it w/me. 700 sf. may be a palace in other countries but it ain't here.

My 2 cents worth: It can be done short term and you should plan on adding on.

-- Najia (najia274@yahoo.com), April 03, 2002.

We lived for 3 years in a 720sq. ft. trailer with 1 girl and 4 boys. We converted the living room into 2 bedrooms so everyone had to sit in the kitchen. It was OK when they were small- not all were school- age, but they got bigger,they too, were on top of one another. It got old. We added another trailer 2 years ago and its fine, now. We had Social Services called on us, but they looked at our arrangements and saw that the kids all had their own beds and left us alone.

-- Gayle in KY (gayleannesmith@yahoo.com), April 03, 2002.

Penny, There is a family that I know that live in a small 3 bed/1 bath mobile in a trailer court. Mom, Dad and 8 kids! And they homeschool. Mom has a rule, if you buy anything new, something old has to go out the door or the new item does not come in. She allows the kids 3 changes of clothes each and they have to keep their own clothes clean. She only washes for the littlest ones. All the children are very helpful to mom and each other and seem to get along very well together. I was in their trailer and everthing was very neat and organized. I think most of all it was mom's attitude that mattered the most in the family. Very sweet, gentle woman, but firm in what she believes. You can do it too. Good luck, kim.

-- kim in CO (kimk61252@hotmail.com), April 03, 2002.

Bet the parents spend quite a bit on motels for themselves!

-- ~Rogo (rogo2222@hotmail.com), April 04, 2002.

ok, first of all , it can be done, a lot of those 50's style bungalos arent much more than that.....

first, how is the hopuse laid out ?, is there a dining room ?, do you need a seperate "dining room", or could it be a bedroom ????

when my ex and i and 3 kids lived in a little 20x20 bungaloo, it had a dining room, we turned into our room, with lovely french doors, plus we finished a small room in the "attic" and one corner of the basement.... but if youre buying, you could always build bigger... but , i dont think youll need it, after all its not much smaller than where you are now. what a great way to pare down your possessions... will we be seeing you on the barter board too ? :)

-- Beth Van Stiphout (willosnake@hotmail.com), April 04, 2002.

It appears to be an open floor plan excepting the bathroom and bedroom. We will be buying, whether this particular house works out or not.

Soooo, what and where is the barter board? This sounds great!

Thanks again to all of you for the encouraging words and ideas!!

-- Penny in PA (drewbange@pa.net), April 04, 2002.

We are a family of 4 living in a 360 sq. ft. cabin with a loft. We put in running water but have a privvy outside. We are remodeling the 1200 sq. ft. shop for a real house. One of the first things we did was put a decent wood stove in the shop so we could spend more time over there in the winter. This way we can live in both buildings without getting on each others nerves too much.

-- Bonnie (stichart@plix.com), April 04, 2002.