There seem to be a lot of organic producers here. I hope I am close enough to on-topic with this, and I'm not looking for any kind of battle. I'm just curious how organic producers deal with these issues.

On an ag-related message board it came up that an organic producer sent out some letters to his neighbors that sorta says everyone needs to keep spray & GMO crops 1/2 mile away from him, as he wants to produce 100% pure organic crops.

I thought the organic movement was more about controling your own land, keeping your own buffer strips, and producing to the best of your ability with non-modern chemical methods. It seems odd that someone would talk about suing someone for pollen drift, when I am not aware of any seed company offering 100% pure seeds to begin with - how would he know the trace amounts didn't come in with his own seeds, if any is found?

The thread is at:

http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/CropTalk/posts/13109.html

And I was just looking for some thoughtful comments from organic producers.

Again, I myself am not in the battle of organic vs non-organic, and I believe there is a proper place for both types of production. My question is about the sudden thoughts of "100% free" of one thing or another that seems to have cropped up the past couple of years. Can anyone promise anything 100% pure? How so?

Thanks, --->Paul

-- paul (ramblerplm@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002

Answers

Uh. What's the question again?

-- (rick7@postmark.net), April 19, 2002.

Paul, I respect the person's right to do what he wants on his place, but I am with you in the opinion that asking his neighbors to alter what they are doing is a bit arrogant and over the line of reasonable expectations.

-- Rose (open_rose@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

when farmers get sued, for growing GM crops, even when they dont plant it,, cross pollination from other fields,, and they loose the court case,,I'd resort to flame thrower instead

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), April 19, 2002.

Paul,

What you are talking about has already happened, but in a different scenario. The producers of the genetically altered hybrid seeds are suing farmers whose own crops have been contaminated by pollen drift from the GA crops. As Stan said, there was a court case in which the non-GA crop farmer was sued and LOST because his crop had been contaminated by the GA plants.

I have not heard any other cases involving an organic farmer suing neighbors, but it seems reasonable that if a farmer is spraying his crops with chemicals then he should be responsible for keeping the chemical confined to his own property and crops, and should be held liable if he fails to do so. After much hard work the beekeepers have finally gotten laws passed in "most" states mandating that farmers and/or spray applicators are liable for damages to bee hives caused by spraying. No one should have the right to contaminate another farmer's crops or properties by carelessly growing altered crops or applying chemicals.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), April 19, 2002.

I think that any time landowner A is doing something that is physically harming landowner B's property or personal property then A should have to be the one that is libel to correct the situation. Whether its sprays,GA crops or sheep killing dogs.

-- Gary (burnett_gary@msn.com), April 19, 2002.

Thanks all.

Elizabeth, I agree with what you are saying. However, in the past 5 years or so I have seen 'zero tolerance' replacing the original concepts of organic farming with a 'best personal practices' goal.

Sprays especially need to be applied with a good understanding of how to prevent drift. (Did you know that one of the worst times to spray is when it is absolutly calm - temperatur inversion?) In my state at least one is required to go to training courses & have a permit to use several of the farm chemicals. If a farmer does not follow the labels regarding wind & temp conditions, he can be liable for any damage.

I could understand requiring some minimal type of buffer or setback for GMO crops. None is right now, and I don't see that changing. However, I can understand the idea.

My concern is some people looking for stuff that is 100% pure GMO or pesticide residue free. Is that really what anyone is looking for? I don't believe that is possible, do any of you?

I'm curious how others feel about that. I realize I don't have a good question here exactly, but I don't want to start a war on the different growing practices either. :) Just trying to see how others feel.

--->Paul

-- paul (ramblerplm@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

Paul I don't have a problem with the organic farmer ASKING his neighbors to comply with his wishes. They by all means do not have to do as he asks. But the organic farmer is responsibe for his soil and produce passing regulations which are getting stricter all the time. So is run off or spray from his neighbor is effecting his crops and his ability to maintain his organic status then he may very well have a case.

The case I know about that concerned a GM canola and a farmer getting sued by Monsanto. He not only lost the farm but everything he had in his life and all because Monsanto pollen drifted into his field and pollenated his crop. That I believe was in Canada, and very sad.

I don't have any answers but then again you weren't looking for any.

Susan

-- Susan in MN (nanaboo@paulbunyan.net), April 19, 2002.

I agree with Stan.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), April 19, 2002.

Well, it takes all kinds. It is impossible for us to be organic because of the run off from our neighbors chemical farming. When we left a big buffer on OUR side of the fence to protect us from his spray.........he sprayed our buffer..........totally by accident he says. We no longer attempt to get certified or make any claims about our veggies. I can not see where anyone could possible claim 100% pure on anything. The ancient corn in the Andes has been contaminated for crying out loud. The rain contains chemicals so you can be as organic as all get out and still get a dose. We just tell people what OUR practices are and let them draw their own conclusions.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), April 19, 2002.

Yes, I darn well do have the right to EXPECT that my food be pure and uncontaminated. I also have the right to SUE the manufacturer of a product that is contaminating my food supply, when his product is loosed into the air and contaminates my crops causing the loss of my income and food. I would have no hesitation at all if I felt I could prove contamination in a court of law. There is only one language that a corporation like Monsanto understands and that is the language of millions of dollars going down the toilet. Here is the reason in a nutshell. If the research into genetic modification continues, and the production of genetically modified organisms proliferates, the end result will be worldwide famine in proportions never experienced before. These people are producing products that could cause all plants on the earth to stop producing seed. At the same time they are suing this poor guy in Canada for pollen drift they are spewing the lie out of the other side of their mouth that terminator seed won't share it's pollen with other plants. GIVE ME A BREAK!

Little bit farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), April 19, 2002.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I agree 1000% with you Little Bit!!!

-- Deborah Stephenson (wonkaandgypsy@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

As to how to determine when there has been contamination, it appears to be by the presence of the cauliflower mosaic virus.

Mexico's vital gene reservoir polluted by modified maize, Paul Brown, environment correspondent, Friday April 19, 2002 The Guardian , http://www.guardian.co.uk/gmdebate/Story/0,2763,686955,00.html

The Mexican government has confirmed that despite its ban on genetically modified maize, there is massive contamination of crops in areas that act as the gene bank for one of the world's staple crops.

The revealing factor was the presence of the cauliflower mosaic virus, which is used widely in GM crops to "switch on" insecticides which have been inserted into them. Mr Soberon said the GM developers Monsanto, Syngenta and Aventis all used the same technology.

-- BC (desertdweller44@yahoo.com), April 19, 2002.

Lil Bit and Stan and B.C. have it right. All he can do is ask and then he has to prove. GMO crops are supposed to have setbacks and buffer strips

-- John in Mn. (nospam@mywork.com), April 19, 2002.

If a farm is organically certified, they will lose their certification if they are contaminated by their neighbor's chemicals. This is the major problem with sprays and GM pollen, that the chemical companies don't care about. I grow cut flowers and have a problem every year with the neighboring farmer spraying his herbicides and stunting the last rows of my crops. I am not certified organic, just practice good gardening techniques. It is annoying and something that is hard to control. The land that has been sprayed for years is a dead wasteland. Has taken me five years to get the soil back to some sort of fertility. (I am growing on part of the land that was farmed.)Can't wait til my FIL quits renting our piece and his to the farmer.

-- Cindy Noll (CBirder@aol.com), April 20, 2002.

We have 100 acres of certified organic white wheat. On the 80 acre field there are non-organic farms on all sides. The buffers are very narrow. They all know we are organic but we have never asked anything of them. I think they would probably laugh at us. If they keep from aerial spraying, I think we'll be ok. We really don't want to sue anybody about anything. Everyone's so sue happy I'd rather not go there. Now the 20 acre field is in the middle of our large farm, and will be fine. We really are so different than all our farm neighbors they all think we're pretty strange. We've been here for 2 generations, and most of them too. We're all friendly but our practices with natural beef, some organic crops and minimun-till crops just blow their minds. I could go on and on about how our farming practices differ from our neighbors. Some farmers have literally ruined their land with chemicals and commercial fertilizers, never even considering you must put back the trace minerals ect........Yes, I could go on == on my soapbox. Just know that not all the big farmers are ruining the environment, some of us are trying our best to do it the NATURAL way.

By the way my dear FIL died over 20 years ago of heart problems due to handling farm insecticide chemicals. That's one of the reasons we are so determined to be natural.

-- Marilyn in CO (www.tomeatbeef@aol.com), April 20, 2002.