Help! Our new Chair of Theology is a Raging Feminist!

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She's NEVER read Dominus Iesus, is blind to any passages in Vatican II documents about orthdoxy, has NO theological problems with married and/or women priests, and we're stuck with her ALL NEXT YEAR! God help us!

-- Jeffrey Zimmerman (jeffreyz@seminarianthoughts.com), April 19, 2002

Answers

How wonderful the Holy Spirit is opening a window. Now breathe deeply and slowly. She is probably also very intelligent and knowledgeable in her Church History. Godde speaks in strange ways. Joan

-- Joan Storey (godessss@mindspring.com), April 19, 2002.

I have no comment or no solution. I will light a candle. (or two) Just remember what the Pope says: "BE NOT AFRAID!"

-- Joe Catholic (me@nospam.net), April 19, 2002.

Haa!!!
Yes, Jeffrey, it's so true: ''An enemy hath done this.''

As Sister Storey put it, just a wee window; let's take a deep breath -- Or you might throw up.

Sister says the window's opening on account of the Holy Spirit. Well, I'm sure the Holy Spirit loves women. Even militant shrews and peeved old crones. Let them have their say-- the Church is indestructible. Pay no mind to the theology of a chair, though.

They are for offering an ocassional visitor, that's all. ''Have a seat, Ms. Storey. Take a big load off your feet!'' Lol!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 19, 2002.


Hey; Joan is right for a change. Godde does speak in strange ways; but God works in mysterious ways.

-- Emerald (emerald1@home.com), April 19, 2002.

Jeffrey:
Since all of you are stuck with a raging feminist for a year; I advise you to be loving and deferential to her. It's better than being troubled about it. At the same time you stroke her ego, there may appear on the top of her head those burning coals Our Lord was telling us about.

It works for me, with Joan Storey.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 19, 2002.



Hello, Jeffrey.

Unless you did not have a chance to read it, remember what I told you in a post about six weeks ago:
If things take a turn for the worse, and you can't stand it, please do not turn away from your vocation, but transfer to an orthodox seminary, such as the one just opened by Lincoln, Nebraska's Bp. Fabian Bruskewitz. Please consider discussing this with your (Tucson?) bishop, if the new development begins to destroy your peace of mind.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.


Joan, I have to admit that your opinions challenge my intellect's ability to even penetrate the surface of your claim to being a Catholic. You are, in every word your offer this forum, proving the contrary. Sorry to be the one to state the obvious...but you are a true heretic. And, before you lambast me once more, I promise you that I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter.

I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter.

-- Melissa (holy_rhodes@earthlink.net), April 20, 2002.


I know -- you could point out to her how, since the 60's and the feminist/sexual revolution, statistically the family has been nearly annilated. Of course, you won't win any brownie points for that one!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), April 20, 2002.


For those who are 'troubled' by Joan's comments, please remember what Jesus said. "Be good to those who persecute you." He also said, "Do not let your hearts be troubled." You know Satan is always lurking around wanting to distrub our peace. Show him you won't let that happen. Thank you Jesus for your Word.

Think about how Jesus handled those who challanged him - not easy because we are not Jesus, but we can try.

"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall see God."

-- Gerri (gerdwn@att.net), April 21, 2002.


That may be true, but we also have a duty and and obligation to speak the truth. Especially in these confused times. Never confuse charity with timidity.

-- JRC (me@nospam.net), April 21, 2002.


Gerri,

By following Jesus here, should we allow her to strike us as Jesus did while being scourged, or should we toss the money-changers out of the Temple?

People here DO put up with the Joans for awile, but it gets trying when there's a non-stop stream of this stuff. Hopefully, they can show some Christian charity too.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 22, 2002.


Why does not having a problem with married or female priests make someone a feminist?

I don't understand the hatred and the anger against those that defend womens abilities and contributions. Why are so many of you so narrow minded?

I am a Christian, a female, called by God to the Andlican priesthood. Am I too, to be hated or perhaps just pitied for being delusional. Christ is LOVE and so also should be those that wear His name.

I pray for you.

-- Sharon Guy (sharon-guy@fsmail.net), April 23, 2002.


Sharon writes:

"I am a Christian, a female, called by God to the Andlican [Anglican] priesthood. Am I too, to be hated or perhaps just pitied for being delusional. Christ is LOVE and so also should be those that wear His name."

Between "hated" and "pitied", I'll vote "pitied." :-)

Just kidding.

Anyway, the term feminism as used today connotes a lot of negatives, because many feminists are anti-Woman! They (NOW, etc) certainly have no problem push abortion and birth control to women. Ironically, the Women's Movement's founders saw abortion as a terrible offense against a woman's dignity...

What are your thoughts of feminism?

In Christ,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), April 23, 2002.


Yeah, in all frankness I think the Anglicans lost a lot of respect when they allowed woman's 'ordination'. Gays in the priesthood now and on and on. Somehow I don't think Fat Henry planned for this. It just looks silly to see a woman in a stole up there pontificating. Well to each his own, but somehow I don't think this experiment will last long.

-- JRC (me@nospam.net), April 23, 2002.

JRC,

Although some Episcopal/Anglican visitors are excited about their "abundant" vocations, I think they have a terrible problem convincing people to continue in their vocation of sitting in the pews. I personally would have trouble staying in a church with such a dynamic view of Truth.

We all pray for all Christians to renew their faith in Christ. Just say no to wishy-washy theology. :-)

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), April 23, 2002.



Was Christ a man? Did he say Father and say mother to Mary? I suspect there is something wrong here Do you? After all did Christ appoint men to carry on his mission after his death?

I remember not too many years ago of several Parishes and Priests and parishioners of the Episcopalian faith switching over to the Catholic Church as a result of women being ordained. Does't that say something to you Sharon? Come on did Christ say to Ordain women. I don't think so. Let's be realistic here. Changing times? Yes. Changing Scripture? Nope. GOD wins.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), April 23, 2002.


Friends, --I remember Sharon Guy, and she's a fine person. She is not validly ordained, in my opinion. But then, her male counterparts in the Anglican Church aren't either. She justifies her priesthood because she believes her church is authorised by descent from the apostles to have her ordained. Her mistake is the common mistake of all protestants. She lives in her church as a faithful participant in all its practices.

So did John Henry Cardinal Newman; and a greater Christian there never was. When he ''Poped-out'' --as the Limeys say, he was ordained validly and became a force in the Catholic Church. If Sharon ever comes to the True Church of her ancestors, she'll become a nun, I guess; or an ''Abbess''. With no less of a potential to become a FORCE in the Catholic faith than that which God gave Cardinal Newman. because, ultimately, Sharon is a good feminist, not in Joan Storey's kind of error. Sharon, if I understand her correctly is in ''holy orders'' because of her deep love of God. I applaud her, and will always remember her in my own prayers. Why not? Let God be the One who makes her His; we have no power to convert. Only God ever converted even one single Christian. We seem to think we're His instruments, sometimes. But maybe we ought to consider ourselves just His old impediments instead. If God can HAVE impediments. Right, Sharon?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 23, 2002.


"That may be true, but we also have a duty and and obligation to speak the truth. Especially in these confused times. Never confuse charity with timidity."

Seem, Bl. Escriva is relevant here:

"If you character and that of those around you were soft and sweet like marshmallows, you would never become a saint." (The Way; 20)

Hi, I am new here, was posting to the Fr. Sudac forum after attending one of his Masses, I have since branched out.

Anyway, Jeffrey, I was in a similar situation with regard to a professor I had in college. She was teaching "Christian Spirituality" which, unfortunately, was Christian in name alone, which I had pointed out to her in one of our "meetings."

All I can tell you is be charitable but firm in your faith. You will probably come to blows, but remember what the same soon-to-be-saint said previous to the above, "You clash with the character of one person or another...It has to be that way--you are not a dollar bill to be liked by everyone. Besides, without those clashes which arise in dealing with your neighbors, how could you ever lose the sharp corners, the edges--imperfections and defects of your character--and acquire the order, the smoothness and firm mildness of charity, of perfection?" (ibid). You must never forget the true reason for defending yourself against those that want to destroy that same faith. Remember 1 Peter 3:15-16 "Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence; and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame." Be steadfast in that faith, and resolute in making an account, but don't ever forget the true reason, ie: to save souls.

I, unfortunately, had to learn that lesson the hard way. That professor and I came to blows more than I would like to admit, and it always resulted in her throwing a book at me from some heretical priest to justify her claims, with me countering with other books from the Pope or, in one case, the Dali Lama. It seemed she believed, like Matthew Fox, Anthony DeMello, and others, in Creation Spirituality, but did not really seem to know the full depth of it, in order to teach it, though she did anyway. Basically, one of her agendas was to push for a pantheistic god, which she would justify by using the heretical priest, Fr. McBrien to counter with his "panentheism" as well as quoting from Telihard De Chardin. That is merely one example of many. Unfortunately, people such as these let their pride get in the way in believing that they can destroy a supernatural Church by natural means. Like I said, be charitable, but firm.

I sympathize with you, and pray that you will have the courage, counsel, and good judgement of the Holy Spirit when speaking with her, and that you don't have to go through similar "meetings" with her. Incidentally, these meetings were usually for her to help students, in my case, she wanted to "convert" me, or at least try to get me to see her point of view. The end result was not pretty, especially since it ended with her screaming at me in the middle of class about what true education should be.

Good Luck, and may I recommend you check out the following books to prepare yourself:

Ungodly Rage by Donna Steichen Ignatius Press

God or Goddess by Manfred Hauke Ignatius Press

Unicorn in the Sanctuary by Randy England Tan Publishing

The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow by Constance Cumbey Huntington House

Liberalism is a Sin by Fr. Felix Sarda Y Salvany Tan Publishing

What Went Wrong With Vatican II by Ralph McInerny Sophia Institute Press

Trojan Horse in the City of God by Dietrich Von Hildebrand Sophia Institute Press

The last three are not about feminism per se, but more about liberalism and the pro-modernist agenda with regard to Vatican II. I don't expect you to read all of those, nor even get your hands on them, but if you can, they will be great helps, if even to glance through.



-- Brian (sacerdos@hotpop.com), April 23, 2002.


Thank you, Brian,
Let me say you look as if you've done all your homework. That's fine. I'm in your camp. I can't read these books all of a sudden, but I'm well aware of the subjects they approach. From the orthodox angle.

I've also had occasion to carry the football in this forum; and beat up on some other players. It's fun; and I have been accused of doing it for the sheer fun, too. Not KOSHER, you see--Hmm.

I think if I'm going to get a reputation as a big head, well, it ought to be in defense of the faith; not in some popularity contest. God expects HEAT and LIGHT from His loyal followers.

Our friend Sharon, however is not the ordinary visitor here. In the past she was very warm; a good conversationalist and never anti-Catholic at heart. I liked her; and I'm usually a hard catholic to please. You'll probably find that out, Brian.

Let's not charge into the end zone yet; take your time. The game's just starting! Lol!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 24, 2002.


Hey Brian, I just read some of Bl. J M Escriva for the first time, although I wasn't thinking of him when I wrote that. He is great! Not at all what I was expecting! ;) He is very practical and down to earth. I suppose that is why they made him a saint. (or will soon)

-- JRC (me@nospam.net), April 24, 2002.

Thank you Eugene, the respect you gave me in your answer is beautiful and much appreciated. The Anglican Church to me, is only in error inasmuch as it is so broad to accept people who do not believe the cental tenets of faith.

My Bible, every word of which is inspired by God, is what I build my faith on. I know to Catholics I am not fully correct(!) but I am sure that Christ who bagan a good work in me will bring it to completion. I am also sure that God is big enough to do this within the Anglican Communion.

I believe that abortion is wrong but do not condemn those that feel it is there only choice. Serial abortioners make me furious, once can be a mistake but more than one is treating life with disdain.

My feelings on feminism are that promoting women's abilities and contributions is good. Feminism that seeks to put men down or force women into roles they do not want is not a positive force and should be avoided.

Jesus loved women and raised them beyond the status they occupied at the time. The Bible must be read in the context of the times. Looking at how Jesus behaved, he would not condemn women who serve Him. My calling is of God, if I did not believe this is Truth, I would not go down that path. I do not feel called to be a nun, as a wife that would be difficult! I feel the Catholic Church needs to recognise that women do have a ministry within the Church. They certainly had a ministry to Jesus in the Bible.

-- Sharon Guy (sharon-guy@fsmail.net), April 24, 2002.


Thanks for your interesting and I am sure heart-felt post. I am up early this morning and on my way out the door, so if its ok I hope I can make a few unsolicited remarks.

We Catholics are not immune to the relativism and utilitarianism so prevalent in our society. Christianty, if you take it seriously, and if you read the new testament carefully,(and I am sure you do) has no truck with such things. Its great to love unconditionally, imho, but we can't accept every idea that comes down the pike, and harmful things much be stated as such. All ideas are not equal, and relativism is one very unequal idea. I think we need only look at the moral quandry of our young people to see what it has wrought.

As far as feminism, of course women have a role in the church, as do all lay people. Our Holy Father as determined decisively and permananently that this role does not include priesthood, simply because he is unable to, it is not what God intended. All other roles, yes of course. The one modern idea that I see as completly unbiblical as Christ as some sort of social reformer. Primarily his message is not of social reform in this world, but eternally life in the next.

I don't think any of us meant to be rude, but since you chimed in on a Catholic board, we tried to defend our beliefs, so I hope there is no ill will. No one has a problem with your calling btw, unless you suddenly determine you have a calling to the Catholic Preisthood. :))

Best Wishes, Pax Christi

-- JRC (me@nospam.net), April 24, 2002.


"It's fun; and I have been accused of doing it for the sheer fun, too. Not KOSHER, you see--Hmm."

This is what I was warning Jeff against in dealing with the woman that occupies the new chair. I was trying to save him from making the same mistakes I learned in my own "battle." In my situation, she kept pushing and pushing because I did not agree with her, so she got more "militant" and hostile in trying to get me to see her view. Looking back, I am sure if I had thought about it more, and brought it to my prayer more frequently, it might not have turned out the same way, but this was a case where experience was my teacher. In this case, I am trying to impart that bad experience to someone who is in a similar situation so he does not have a similar outcome. Incidentally, the meetings were always scheduled by her either before or after class, I was ready to pick up and leave the class, but I needed that credit to graduate.

"Our friend Sharon, however is not the ordinary visitor here. In the past she was very warm; a good conversationalist and never anti- Catholic at heart. I liked her; and I'm usually a hard catholic to please."

Both of which I have noticed, and if you are referring to my post to her on another forum, I was merely answering her questions as charitably as I could given the situation, and despite her name- calling.

"Let's not charge into the end zone yet; take your time. The game's just starting! Lol!"

You mean bide my time? Let certain things go unnoticed and not defend them, despite our limited time here on earth? I don't know that I can agree with that, I can try to be more charitable, yes, but not play a "waiting game" for souls. God's time, yes, but you have a clock as well that only grows slower each day.

"Hey Brian, I just read some of Bl. J M Escriva for the first time, although I wasn't thinking of him when I wrote that. He is great! Not at all what I was expecting! ;) He is very practical and down to earth. I suppose that is why they made him a saint. (or will soon)"

-- JRC (me@nospam.net), April 24, 2002.

Definitely agree, picked up his book yesterday, and have found so many great "nuggets" of reflection it is amazing.

"Feminism that seeks to put men down or force women into roles they do not want is not a positive force and should be avoided."

Which I agree with Sharon, which is why I recommended those particular books, because they deal with those same issues. I know you don't see eye to eye with some Catholic teaching, but it also seems you are not in total disagreement with it either. I now see what Eugene means.

-- Brian (sacerdos@hotpop.com), April 24, 2002.


Hi Sharon,

You write:

"Jesus loved women and raised them beyond the status they occupied at the time. The Bible must be read in the context of the times. Looking at how Jesus behaved, he would not condemn women who serve Him. My calling is of God, if I did not believe this is Truth, I would not go down that path. I do not feel called to be a nun, as a wife that would be difficult! I feel the Catholic Church needs to recognise that women do have a ministry within the Church. They certainly had a ministry to Jesus in the Bible."

It is no secret that women play an important part in ministering to others as representatives of the church. It seems that you have share the desire to bring Jesus' message to others...no argument there! :-)

With regard to the Sacrament of Holy Orders, no doubt you have read this link.

While Jesus loves women, he was not and could not be restrained by societal norms in his treatment of women. He regularly spoke with Samaritans, hung out with tax collectors, and he preached at the mount of Olives that tax collectors and harlots (prostitutes) would enter Heaven. Jesus wasn't limited by his times in his message.

Further, I believe that women priests were common in surrounding pagan cultures. The Hellinistic influences of the time of Christ (IMHO) should have been enough to allow for Jesus to establish a gender-neutral priesthood, had he wanted to.

The Catholic Church's vitality is due to the contributions of both men and women who bring the Christian message (both in word and deed) to society.

In Christ, Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), April 24, 2002.


To Sharon Guy--
When you say:

''My Bible, every word of which is inspired by God, is what I build my faith on. I know to Catholics I am not fully correct. But I am sure that Christ who began a good work in me will bring it to completion. I am also sure that God is big enough to do this within the Anglican Communion.''
Your apologetics is faulty. I know you've studied theology, etc., and received an ordination. However, I-- who haven't reached a plateau of that sort, can dare correct some things.

Catholic doctrine is plain; no church is free from the danger of heresy, or apostacy or gross error which is not from Christ and the Apostles. The Church's four marks of authenticity: Is ONE (not sectarian) is Holy, is Catholic, and is Apostolic, aren't in the Anglican communion, Sharon. A Church that departs from the Catholic one, to become an offshoot, and mostly in Britain at that, isn't universal; Catholic. It might be holy in some ways; but the ''married'' homosexual clergy is unholy, I think. That is a compromise which Christ's church can't condone. It used to be Apostolic once. But that was before the Church of England outlawed the Catholic bishops who once ordained your priests. The remaining bishops of the previous communion sold out to a monarch, and were not authorised thereafter to pass on their apostolic succession. It's not hard to prove.

A great number of good Anglicans who had faith in these orders were bound by conscience to leave during that phase we now call the Oxford Movement; ot the least Cardinal Newman and the fine poet-priest Gerald Manley Hopkins. I'm sure they could have simply figured that Christ, who had begun a good work in them would bring it to completion. Yes, God is certainly able to bring saints forth from the Anglican communion. Because He's ''Big Enough.''

But He also commands the Anglican priest's assent to His divine Will. That's what John Henry Cardinal Newman thought was most appropriate in his own circumstances.

You might consider what Newman gave up, following his conscience. He gave up immense stature within the Anglican Church, and a sinecure. He became a foul creature to his compatriates for the sake of God's Will. He went to a country he found foreign and disagreeable, from his lovely Oxford.

BTW, I'm an anglophile at heart (of Spanish descent!); and I was thrilled to see Bampton Oratory, Arundel and Westminster Cathedral in my recent travels. I wondered why the English Catholics were so extraordinarily devout. I thought about it and realised later. Theirs is a land God has given a major grace in the blood of her martyrs. I hope you'll come to understand someday what I'm saying to you, Sharon.
--God bless you.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 24, 2002.


Eugene,

I am not yet ordained or had my training. I was born into the Anglican Church and grew up there. I am happy to remain there. The Catholic church cannot accept my calling and I accept this even though I believe it to be wrong. It hurts that as christians we are seperated by doctrine, I wish it were not so.

I am glad to be able to visit this forum, to increase my knowledge of Catholicism and to share a little about Anglicanism so that we may not be separated by ignorance or bigotry. I know Catholics will never agree to everything I say but I for one will not dismiss your faith or zeal for what is right.

I am not a relativist. God is Truth and only God. If I have made a mistake, God will forgive one who has genuinely tried to follow Him. I hope to meet you all when we get to Glory.

-- Sharon Guy (sharon-guy@fsmail.net), April 28, 2002.


Hi Sharon,

I read your post on the other thread and also this one. (The grandmother thing) I don't really respond much to this forum, but I wanted to say a few things. The grandmother idea--(What would Grandma Say?) was really allegorical. At one point you said you didn't really know the history. I encourage you to look into it. John Newman said to know history was to become Catholic. But beyond that, I am glad you are not a relativist. Jesus said "I am the way the Truth and the Life" Whoever seeks him with a sincere heart will find him. Seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened, ask and you shall recieve. I wish you many blessings on your journey. Pax Christi

-- JRC (me@nospam.net), April 28, 2002.


Thanks JRC,

As part of my training I will cover church/christian history. I am looking forward to it. I agree Jesus is the way,truth and life, no- one comes to the Father except through Him.

-- Sharon Guy (sharon-guy@fsmail.net), April 29, 2002.


Sharon, you might try to get ahold of some of Newman's writings, so that you will see things from our side as well. :) Interestingly, Newman set out to prove that the Anglican Church had apostolic succesion, and came to the conclusion that it did not. Just another point, about the 'What would Jesus do' idea. I heard someone say that it is really more to the point to ask "What would Jesus have ME do". I don't think he is asking many of us to calm the seas or walk on water (although I don't rule it out :))). Ciao

-- JRC (me@nospam.net), May 05, 2002.

Please I do not want to sound offensive. What I say now is in Chrity:

Christ is the Groom and the Church is the Bride. And when we meet, Marriage occurs. And when that Marriage occurs, new life begins. And new life cannot begin when feminine and feminine come together. That's Biblical. Period! And as the Priest represents Christ, he cannot be woman. Does the Anglican Church permit same sex marriages? If it allows women as priests, than it better permit same sex marriages or else the "acceptance" theory falls apart!

I believe you do feel a genuine calling from Christ. But you are sadly misinterpreting it. Above all, before you are ordained, before you act, pray, pray, pray. Pray the Rosary, pray the Our Father. Pray. God does love you. And He has a special plan for you (as He dose for each of us). But it is not the priesthood. God is calling you home. Come home to the Catholic Faith.

I pray: Mary Mother of God, Pray for your beloved women, that they may know the intentions of your Son, Our Lord Jesus. Amen.

To Jeffrey - Hang in there. Patients is a virtue. As Jesus said "my time has not yet come". So too must you wait for your time. Once you become a Priest you will have many a flock to attend. And it is then that you can debunk your feminist Profs. teachings.

You are both in my prayers.

In Christ.

Jake

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 14, 2002.


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