Is there really such a thing as a coydog?

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We've had coyotes in the hayfield and pastures again this year. Most of the time I'm the let them be type, but if they start killing cats and/or chickens they're toast. Well, the last few days there's been a normal looking coyote (est 30-40 lbs) hunting mice in the hayfield, but today I saw a massive dark coyote type animal in the field near the woods line. I have 4 dogs ranging from a beagle (35 lbs) to a Rott/Mastiff/lab cross (120+ lbs) and this animal was roughly 70-80 lbs and tall. I went to the NY DEC site to read what I could about coyotes and coydogs, and the information stated that it would be very rare for an Eastern coyote to mate with a dog--they'd rather eat a dog than mate with it. If this wasn't a coydog it is absolutely the biggest coyote I've ever seen. It carried it's tail lowered like coyotes do, but the head looked like a German Shepherd. DH is at Physical Therapy, and I knew he wouldn't believe me about how big this thing was so I went and got a neighbor to look at it- he concurred that it weighed at least 75 lbs. The normal coyote is still out hunting as we "speak", staying well away from the house, barn, and free range chickens, but the large one was only out about 15 minutes and disappeared.

What do you all think, coyote or coydog? Have you ever seen a coydog, do they exist?

Stacy in NY- who's got the 20 gauge out, problem is it kicks like an Army mule and I don't like shooting it.

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), April 24, 2002

Answers

My understanding is they do not exist, seems people think that coyote and dogs interbreed but I have been told that is impossible something to do with the breeding cycles. Go figure I only know what I have been told. Been wrong before, will be wrong again. Sally

-- (mallardhen67@hotmail.com), April 24, 2002.

Yes, coyotes will mate with a dog who is too big to kill and eat. coyotes are not as tough and fearsome as some people think.

Yes, I have shot and skinned 70 lb. + coyotes so I know they are around.

Yes, make sure if you are going to fire that shotgun, it is worth the dislocated shoulder and bruised butt you will have after you pick yourself off the ground! Personally, it has to be life or death before I will fire a shotgun. I can plink anything right between the eyes with the 22.

-- Laura (Ladybugwrangler@hotmail.com), April 24, 2002.


I know when I was in Michigan a coyote took from one of my friend one of her puppies ( she raise american labradors) and they thought that the puppy was kill, and it was a meal for the coyote family, which they moved about 20 minutes away from their farm. Well a year after that they saw a dog like theirs (american labrador) running with the coyotes, my friend still think that the female coyote, stole the puppy to raise it. And so she did , they saw the dog like two or three times, but then the coyote family moved away and they never saw them again. I still think that this could happen. Ralph.

-- Ralph (rroces1@yahoo.com), April 24, 2002.

yotes can also breed with fox,, weirdest looking criiter,, mostly happens on the east coast,, but some have been reported in Mich, Ohio, valley also

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), April 24, 2002.

Laura, I know exactly what you mean about the dislocated shoulder, but it didn't knock me down. My shoulder area was black and blue for weeks after I shot the thing the last time.

I did some more research and the Eastern coyote has wolf DNA, apparently it's been documented. NYS, in it's infinite wisdom, reintroduced the wolf to the Adirondack Mountains, but that's a ways from where I live.

I need a small rife with a scope. What's a good varmit gun?

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), April 24, 2002.



No offense inteded, but ya'll need to practice with them shotguns a bit and maybe install stock cushions. Its just a tool , my mother is just a little over 110 pounds and regularly uses a 12 guage riot gun for snakes.She never gets undo bruises. If you don't pack the sand to use a 12 or 16 guage, get a .410 or 20 guage. A shotgun need never be a source of undo pain to the shooter and they are a most versitile firearm.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), April 24, 2002.

Gee, Jay, it's a 20 gauge that I've been talking about! I'm not offended in the least--DH tells me it's the way I hold it because I know it's going to kick. I think I was told it kicks so bad cuz the barrel is rifled, does that make sense? Cuz I know it's not a rife, it's a shotgun.

A .410 is a better varmit gun? Is that a rifle or a shotgun? I'm not up on guns, I'm a good shot with a .22 and I'm very safety conscience, but not really knowledgeable about gun calibers. A friend let me shoot his black powder gun (don't know what size but it's for deer hunting) and that didn't hurt me a bit, and I outshot DH to boot. I loved that!

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), April 24, 2002.


My aunt's neighbor suposedly has a coydog, in NW Pa. Just looks like a German Shepherd, only smaller. So how can you tell? Since dogs can breed with wolves, why not coyotes? Anyway, for a small varmit gun we use a 223. Good for distance, doesn't kick AT ALL, and will do the job quite well. We've used it on coons and whistlepigs. Very loud tho.

-- Tricia (rosie71@alltel.net), April 24, 2002.

In my area of East Texas, many of the coyotes we see are often as not rather large. I am told that this is because of breeding with red wolves over the years, which are now pretty much non-existent around these parts. They do look more like a wolf, but the local experts insist they are coyotes. Not uncommon to run 80-100 pounds. Pure bred coyotes tend to be a lot smaller. As far as the gun goes, a good recoil pad on the butt of a 20 gauge, along with proper shouldering of the weapon (firm against the shoulder and grip the gun well to minimize recoil), will result in the least amount of recoil. If you still can't handle it, a .22 will do a pretty good job, but often does not have much knock-down power unless you hit him in the right spot. But a .22 will tend to ruin his day for sure. A 410 is a narrow-gauge shotgun and another good choice, without much recoil. Ammo tends to be expensive, though.

-- SteveD(TX) (smdann@swbell.net), April 24, 2002.

Sounds like a feral dog to me, maybe some kinda shepard cross. SSS Hold that shotgun tight to your shoulder to minimize the kick. It's really hard to do once you've been kicked but it does make a big difference.

-- John in Mn. (nospam@mywork.com), April 24, 2002.


I won't even have to SSS, I can legally shoot a coyote, at any time with any gun, as long as I feel it is, or will, harass my stock. I already checked that out with the NYS Wildlife Management. There's a regular season for them in NYS too, but I think it ended at the end of March.

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), April 24, 2002.


The guys are right, it helps to lean into the gun when shooting, Hold it tight to your shoulder and you won't get kicked. I couldn't do without my 20 gauge and my 22. I have heard that coyotes and dogs and wolves do breed. I've also heard that the coyotes/dog/wolf hybrids are fairly large in the eastern U.S., (and east Texas). Luckily we still have the regular sized to deal with here in western Oklahoma, there are just too many of them!

-- cowgirlone in ok (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), April 24, 2002.

Yes there are coydogs, coy foxes? Aren't Foxes "Veline" as opposed to coyotes and dogs "Canine"? E Ontario is almost overrun with them, Our minestry of natural resources has reportedly released cougers locally and one could hope they'll eat coyotes before humans!! Coyotes steal enough lambs to warrent a shoot on sight policy, they're darn hard to keep in your sights long enough before anyone thinks they've not got a chance. There have also been children attacked locally by coyotes so they really havn't been a welcome addition.

-- Ross (amulet@istar.ca), April 24, 2002.

Snug the butt of that gun into your shoulder/armpit really well and it will minimize the kick. My mother-in-law would fold up a baby diaper and stick under her bra strap where the gun went to help with the shock. Yes coyotes will cross with dogs. I've seen the result(I could go into some interbreed examples but this is a family forum and well I just won't go there). It could also be a wolf. Even if the gov agencies in your area say there aren't any wolves they are often wrong. In my area there are plenty of species that the gov says don't live here and I'll see them from time to time(giant red headed woodpecker being one of them...dang thing makes as much noise as a jackhammer). Could possibly have been a pet at one time too. Lots of people keep wolves as pets(which makes no sense to me). I'm quite sure that these could escape from time to time or possibly breed with stray dogs during the time it had escaped even if it was recaptured. All kinds of possibilities. I remember one day there was an enormous coyote-cross crossing the open field between my house and my grannies. It stopped and stared at me for ever so long....hair stood straight up on the back of my neck. I've never seen anything that big in this area before....it would weigh about what you are talking about.

-- Amanda (mrsgunsmyth@hotmail.com), April 24, 2002.

A 22 will not kill a coyote outright unless the brain in penetrated. They will die from a body shot, but it takes a while for the kidneys to fail from lead poisoning. After a few days they are pretty well ineffective as a predator. (At least this happens to our normal small sized desert coyotes.)

-- Joe (CactusJoe001@AOL.com), April 24, 2002.


Stacy, Based on your experience with the 20 gauge (which is actually a mild gun by itself) a good gun for you would be a 22-250. If you have the money to spend I would recommend a Remington 700 with a Leuopold, or a Boush & Lomb 6-24x variable varmint scope. This is about the least amount of kick your going to get from a high power rifle. This set up will cost you about $1000 and will be good to kill anything up to about 500 yards depending on you. If this is too much you could go with a Savage Rifle but you will still have to spend the money on the scope (you should always spend as much on the scope as the gun). This will save you a few hundred. I have owned both and they are both excellent, the Savage might be a bit more accurate. You didn't mention what the distances are that you intend to shoot them. For close range (anything under 200 yards) you could go with a . 22 Magnum. The have quite a bit of power for a true . 22, and the kick is Minimal. You could easily kill a coyote with one of these. You can get one of these for under $250. Take the . 410 and put it away, you will just wound them, 410's are made for snakes. As far as the kick on any gun the biggest problem is the anticipation of the shot which makes people flinch and of course being less accurate. This is a problem that plagues even special forces as part of their training is learning not to anticipate the kick. You should shoot what you are comfortable with, this is the only way you can become a good shooter. If you are a good shooter then you will just have to train yourself to lose the flinch if you wish to shoot a shotgun or heavy caliber rifle. Let me know if I can Help. Lou

-- Lou (xnycowboy@aol.com), April 24, 2002.

YES there are coydogs!!! I've had many when I lived in ElPaso TX, if I had a scanner I would post some pictures, mine had breeding/heat seasons much like coyotes and would eat grass [looked like sheep grazing] and cactus, and they chewed open soda cans and opened up a hole in a stucco wall, and the coolest thing was that some of them would "answer" the wild coyotes when they sang out in the desert. The smartest dogs I've ever had. that said I also think that the most dangerous coy's are dog crosses, depending on the kind of dog they cross with you can get a large, wild, not so afaid of people, problem. There are a few post in the old list about them. All it takes is a female dog in heat and no female coy to run her off, and about two months later -ta-da- you got coy dogs.

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), April 24, 2002.

YES, there are! We had one for a while. It was very smart and never went in the road when cars were comming. It could hear them comming and would run. It looked like a coyote but its legs weren't as long. It always answered the wild coyotes at night and sounded exactly like them. When breeding season arived he began disapearing for days at a time. One day he came crawling home all tore up. We took him to the vet. He stitched him up and told us to keep him quiet. We put him in the garage with food and water. When the medicine wore off he went wild and tore up the garage and crashed into walls. My husband let him out before he killed himself. He took off into the woods like his tail was on fire. We figured he died or was killed by another male coyote but a few months later he came home. He would not come close anymore but would take his food then run off to the woods again. on day he came close and let me pet him then he left and we never saw him again.

-- corky wolf (corkywolf@hotmail.com), April 24, 2002.

B. Loved your "Coy dog"! ROFLMAO!!! Too Funny! LQ

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), April 24, 2002.

Ruger mini-14 ranch rifle .223 (varmint gun, cheap shells)

-- KCG (kcg@nuwavenet.com), April 24, 2002.

Stacy:

Coydog, wolf, feral dog or whatever, you need a weapon you can shoot. For close range work (out to about 60, 70 yards) the ordinary .22 rifle with long rifle hollow points is fine. You do not have to kill a predator outright. If you punch a hole in his chest or abdomen he goes off and dies. Shoot for the body, not the head. Good .22 rifles and modest but perfectly serviceable scopes are available used for under $200. Just try to get them to let you test fire it before you buy.

For greater range, I agree that the .223 is a good choice; cheap shells, reasonably flat trajectory and punches a nice hole. Again, you are shooting to remove a predator, not to drop game in its tracks. For that matter, with a scope, good judgement and careful shooting it is not a bad hunting rifle. I do not like the .22 mag; shells are expensive, it carries a ferocious muzzle blast and it is generally and "off breed".

As for your shotgun; the 20 guage is not a bad womans' gun. Problem is that most stocks are too long for women, and consequently they cannot tuck them in the shoulder. Result, kick like a mule and a gun- shy woman.

Good luck with your coyotes. I just fed mine some bye-bye juice this week after they ate two of my chickens.

Mac

-- Jimmy S (Macrocarpus@gbronline.com), April 24, 2002.


Save the lead and your shoulder...

I have heard about EXCELLENT results by putting burros in with the herds...

There are alternatives.

-- BC (katnip364@aol.com), April 25, 2002.


the usual circumstance for hybridization (other than human intervention) is a lone adolescent male far from home that happens across a lone receptive female in heat. that being said two things make this a one in a million that it is a hybrid. all canines are very social. all canines are very territorial and specist (sp). in a wild setting, because they compete for the same food feral dogs, wolves and coyotes will make a point of killing each other. coyotes will destroy the local fox population for the same reason. understand large predators generally leave each other alone because any injury can lead to death. for example a large pack (20+) of northern timberwolves (80-120#) could kill a 300# black bear with relatively small losses, but they won't do it unless they really have to. the smart money is to move on and look for more deer, elk & moose. canines are the only animals that make a point of destroying the competitors they are most similar to. whether roaming wild or in a backyard kennel most hybrids are the result of human intervention. because they do in fact prey heavily on deer, coyotes east of the mississippi can get upwards of 70#. also most animals are nowhere near as heavy or as big as we think they are. i have seen alot of guys with "150#" deer that weren't any bigger than my 70# dobermans. unless you are really small you are almost certainly holding the shotgun incorrectly. when i break an adult guy into shooting a shotgun the first thing i do is have him shoot it tight against his shoulder. then i have him hold it off his shoulder about an inch. after he shoots it i pick up the shotgun (& sometimes the shooter) and quietly but sternly tell them to always, always hold it tight to their shoulder.

-- Pops (pops762@hotmail.com), April 25, 2002.

I have never seen a hybrid that I would definitely say was a coy dog, but they sure appeared to have been. 70#s; dang, but it is a LARGE animal; I think the largest coyotes I've heard of are in that range.

Shotgun or rifle? Why not both? Savage makes an over/under that chambers a .223 over a 12 or 20 gauge. A little pricey at $450 (new), but you never complain about not having the right gun at the time. Close range and running - shotgun. Furthur out and standing still - .223. I have the deer version of this gun, as well as a .22lr/20 gauge older version of it. GOOD GUNS.

-- j.r. guerra in s. tx. (jrguerra@boultinghousesimpson.com), April 25, 2002.


Don't know about the coydog thing ..but someone has been selling them in our local paper...probably for a lot of money too. Might think about that as a homestead business ???(just joking here) I sometimes see a coyote or two around here and they do look like raggedy dogs. Keep the shotgun handy !!!

-- Helena (windyacs/@npacc.net), April 25, 2002.

Mac's right, the stock is too long for me. I was playing around with the 20 gauge this morning and if I get the butt snugged up where it should be I can barely reach the trigger. I'm going to have to go look at a bunch of guns and see what fits me, plus will do the job. My brother and uncle have quite a collection of guns, I'll see what they have that I can borrow for now.

I can't have burros or donkeys, I have a beagle that doesn't pay attention when he's "hounding" and will wander into the horse pasture. The QH has already snuck up on him once and bit the tip of his tail--it was very funny to watch! Champy was OK and has avoided the barn and pasture for quite awhile, but a donk could easily kill him.

I'm fairly good at estimating the weight, and height, of an animal. I was using my dogs as comparision-35#+ beagle (he's fat), 50# chocolate lab, 75# lab/retriever cross, and 120# Rott/mastiff/lab cross, plus I knew that no one would believe how big this thing was so I went and got a neighbor for confirmation- he concurred.

Neither one of the coyotes are in the field today, instead there are five wild turkeys.

Stacy in NY- where's is cold and rainy.

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), April 25, 2002.


one in a million???? I don't think so, well maybe from the perpective of every dog on the planet. Why not just call Corky and me liers strait out!!!! My first one was 1/2 coyote 1/2 shetland sheep dog, in Horizion City, TX.[suburb of El Paso] Lived there in the 70's,

My next coydog was 3/4 shetland 1/4 coy, it was from my 1st ones brother back to the same female, we where all neighbors we knew each others dogs very well, [and oh boy this started a feud!] the fencing there is rock and mortar easy for dogs and coyotes to jump, the shetland female lived at the house at the end of the street I lived next door, the coyotes made a habit if coming up into the yards to get the rabbits that came to eat the only green grass in maybe 10 miles, all the rest of mine came from this 1/4 coy female, she was black and curly but had a coy body and voice, her daddy (who's name was Thor, buy the way) had coy body voice and color, with longer hair and a collie ruff on the neck.

Just so everyone knows I'm not angry, but if you imply I'm lying I get to suggest that your ignorant. I really don't think coyote males are all that picky about inheat females.

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), April 25, 2002.


Stacy where do you live in NY? We just purchased a place in St Lawrence Co. Yikes coyotes! Saw a wolf once when we lived in VT. I was leading a trail ride through the woods and my horse froze. I thought I was seeing things. It looked at us and then disapeared into the woods. This was in 1990. Packs of dogs are bad too. I've heard of them killing calves. I keep my minature horses in chainlink dog pens because of loose dogs. I need to get a varment gun too! A friend keeps a livestock dog.

-- PJC (zpjc5_@hotmail.com), April 25, 2002.

Frankly, the 20 guage really shouldn't kick that much. If it's possible that the stock is too long, not allowing you a good firm grip, you should consider a "youth" model. Most gun manufacturers carry a youth model of a number popular guns.

If you want a weapon for consistent varmint control, while shotguns will work at close range, I would go with a .22 caliber CENTERFIRE rifle in one of the following calibers: .223, .22-250, .220 or Swift. The .22 rimfire that you've shot is just not going to have enough "oomph" to do a convincing job on a coyote. You will be able to buy any amount of factory ammunition for one of these rifles (probably the most in the .223) that will allow you to do what you want, and won't kick you to death.

A scope is nice, and a simple 4x scope will suffice for what you are doing. But make sure you hold tightly on to the gun when you shoot it with a scope. Don't want to scare you, but if you don't hold the rifle tightly, the scope CAN come back and hit you in the head. It will leave a cut that "can" require stitches. And if the animal is close-up, regular open sights can work fine, or even the new generation of fiber optic sights can be really nice.

-- Marvin in Nebraska (brinmg@hotmail.com), April 25, 2002.


223, .22-250, .220 or Swift.

That actually should read "...or .220 Swift", not ".220 or Swift."

-- Marvin in Nebraska (brinmg@hotmail.com), April 25, 2002.


Coyote Info

-- ~Rogo (rogo2222@hotmail.com), April 26, 2002.

first to Thumper & Corky my apologies i never meant to imply that you were lying. your post made it sound as though interbreeding were fairly common. i just wanted to point out that natural hybrids were an oddity. in my platoon we have kids from several NE states that all spout the coydog nonsense. the funny thing is the fed ran a little cooperative study in the eighties in the NE (ME to PA) because of the unusually large size of the coyotes in that area. out of a couple hundred carcasses a several dozen 60# + none were found to have any genetic impurities. second Stacy i don't mean to insult you either and i apologize if you feel that i have. in fact until it is dead and hanging from a scale all anyone can do is guess, from your references you're probably close. i have seen a few coyotes (and other things) myself and body conformation has big effect on weight. a coyote the same size as my dobies from base of the skull to base of the tail will weigh about 10- 15# less. my brothers biggest bobcat (dead) was 2" shorter at the shoulder and 3" less length. if it were a dobie it would have gone about 50# it actually weighed 35# or half what my dobies weighed. the same dogs were almost 10# heavier than the neighbors gordon setter (show dog not enough exercise) that was 2-3" taller same build and a lot more hair.

-- Pops (pops762@hotmail.com), April 27, 2002.

Thank you Pops, I myself have seen a coy?mix? that was the size of a german shepard in the OKC metro area about 5 years ago. The sight gave me a chill, and my friend actually screemed, as it ran across the road in my head lights,we had a GOOD look and OKC don't qualify as eastcoast,

I know from my own coymix dogs that the cross breds don't reproduce well, my little black female had only 3 litters in 9 plus years, her 1st litter I kept into adulthood, and even they had problems of various kinds in reproducing, the 1/2 blood that sired my black female, ran wild as he reached adulthood and I think he escaped to the wild, except for his bit of extra neck ruff, he looked acted and sounded coy, so it is possible that he could breed with a coy female and add some dog blood to the locals, but I am sure the mixed ones aren't clever enough to live as long in the wild as a full coy, but it was not rare for us to see one [while out in the desert at night in many different places over 10 years] that was over sized, or that would stand and watch closer than seemed right, or follow us when we walked after dark, my best friend of that time had under gone rabies shots as a young child, because of a stray puppy, that disappeared after her parents saw her touch it,

We where taught to be very carefull about walking at night because the coy's there did not act afraid of people, and the only reason I know of for that, is because they are part dog,

One place we lived faced the open desert, and ever so often we would catch glimps of eyeshine or a bouce traveling through the sagebrush my female (her name was Velvet) would sing they would answer, they called she answered, once she got out of the yard, and took off, all we heard was a lot of "talking", she was back in the morning with not a scratch that we could find.

So, it could all be urban legend, or there could be fair percentage of cross breeds, in suburban areas, with high coy populations. Think about it, breeding pairs in urban and suburban areas, the pups grow up, they want to breed too, there are more dogs than other coys' so do you think the fact that, the female that is smelling so good at the time [and may be the first female he has seen other than his mom or sister] is a dog will deter a young male coy? thus any pups would be cared for by human support, and instinct may drive one back to the wild thus adding dog blood to the locals

Or that young coy female that is in the mood, and her once a year clock is ticking, and hasn't crossd paths with a male other than her dad or brother, will go without because the only males around are dogs? in this case the pups would have a high mortality rate with just mom to care for them, but it is possible that she could raise one to age, thus adding dog blood to the local population.

Wow, it just occurred to me that the coys that I know followed me and the group across from my house that Velvet took off with, could have been with Thor [my female's sire] I had never thought of that before, it would explain why she and they knew each other and she was not hurt, we had moved with in a 2 hours walk of where she [and he] where born....huh,I'l have to write my sister about that idea....

Anyway, think for yourself what makes more sence, natures drive to survive or the "expert" gov. studies.

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), April 27, 2002.


"Stacy i don't mean to insult you either and i apologize if you feel that i have."

Pops, it would take a lot more than that to insult me! (grin) I'm sure my estimating is off, the coyote could have weighed 65 lbs, but it's still the biggest one I've ever seen-much bigger than the other one. I haven't seen either one since, and there have been 5 wild turkeys in the same field for the last two days. The coyotes seem to move through my acreage once every 5-6 days or so.

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), April 27, 2002.


Yep, there are coydogs. Most are smart and fast so I use a scoped 270 Winchester. Easy kick and quite accurate. Coydogs are dumber and will bother livestock where a normal coyote will usually leave them alone.

-- Willis (wpoze@yahoo.com), April 28, 2002.

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