Does my finace need an annulment if his ex-wife had been married before and she never received an annulment to marry him?

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My finace (not catholic) was married to "Lisa." "Lisa" was married before she married him. Lisa is Catholic and she never received an annulment to marry my fiance, nor did they have a Catholic wedding. Wouldn't their marriage be invalid in the eyes of the Catholic church therefore making it easier for my fiance to get an annulment? (if he needs one.) I am Catholic and want to marry (first for me) in the church but the annulment process sounds very long and complicated. Thanks for your response.

-- E. Rich (srmidnte@aol.com), May 08, 2002

Answers

He doesn't need an annulment... you're good to go.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 09, 2002.

Sorry, Emerald, but you are mistaken.
E. Rich, although the process should be much less complex than some cases and therefore relatively rapid (six months or less), it will be necessary for the marriage tribunal of your diocese to consider the case and issue a Decree of Nullity.
Your parish priest needs to work with your friend [can't call him a "fiance" just yet] to prepare the papers for the tribunal.
Your reasoning is right, provided that Lisa has remained a Catholic throughout the period of her two "weddings." Her first marriage is assumed to have been valid, so the second appears patently null and void (doubly so, since it was celebrated outside the Church).
The key, Emerald, is that, whenever and wherever a wedding ceremony takes place (e.g., Lisa's second), the Church starts by assuming the potential validity of that union, so the tribunal has to examine the facts and formally rule on the validity.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 09, 2002.

But doesn't the fact that he wasn't a Catholic, and his previously marriage to a Catholic was outside the Church, make a difference? I thinking what is there to annul...

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 09, 2002.

Depens I think on the Bishop as we in our Diocese use what is termed - lack 0f form -.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 09, 2002.

That is exactly the point, and it does not depend on the diocese, but is the same throughout the Church (at least in the West). The tribunal (or bishop, who may decide on his own, I believe) has to do the work of determining that there really was "lack of canonical form." That is one of the grounds for the issuance of a Decree of Nullity.

But it is not up to layfolks or parish priests to make that determination. You see, people can say a lot of things to their parish priests, but sometimes they make mistakes, and sometimes they act deceptively. In E. Rich's case, the "facts" may be slightly different from what she has been told, and there exists the small possibility that Lisa and her friend were validly married [it would take a unusual combination of facts]. Using a formal process, with forms filled out, witnesses (at least the other "spouse") contacted for a chance to respond, etc., lets the tribunal do sufficient investigation, to uncover all the facts, and to try to remove any chance of error. Something as serious as marriage requires moving ahead with moral certainty and lack of potentially dangerous assumptions.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 09, 2002.



So what you are saying is that a check is always made to make sure whether an annulment is needed... and that if the facts are actually accurate as stated above, probably no annulment is required?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 09, 2002.

I have friend who is Canon lawyer directly involved on these matters. She has felth the swing to more understandings in these matter have taken place. The set Medieval Mode is no longer accepted by most clergy.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 09, 2002.

Further on this issue another friend is the niece of the current Pope. She had travelled to Rome asking him to annul her marriage which is based on pain and power not love.

He refused resulting in her leaving the Church having affairs and is now currently a lost child. Surely understanding and compassion are needed in many cases.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 09, 2002.


Jean

Again you have condemned the Holy Father for making a wise decision. As a grandson of Polish immigrants at the turn ot eh last century prior to WW I, I have found that under the former Soviet controls, many of the Polish people have lost their real identity as Catholics and the recent freedom has yet revealed to them the true identity of Jesus Christ and his gospels. The younger generation has yet rid itself of the hedonistic lifestyle that was so prevalent throughout the Iron Curtain countries. The pope is not ignorant of this and he has made many speeches on this problem and so far has been rebuked heavily not only by the Poles but the entire European area including this country.

So if you would just please open your closed mind and research a bit before you speak would be greatly be appreaciated.

May the Infant Jesus of Krakow pray for us. AMEN.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 09, 2002.


Jean wrote:

"Further on this issue another friend is the niece of the current Pope. She had travelled to Rome asking him to annul her marriage which is based on pain and power not love.

He refused resulting in her leaving the Church having affairs and is now currently a lost child. Surely understanding and compassion are needed in many cases."

Had this "neice of the current Pope" convinced the Church that her valid marriage was invalid, this would be blatant "who you know" corruption and hypocrisy! If her marriage was valid at the time she married, not even an army of bishops can decree that the marriage is invalid.

Modifying JFK's words a bit:

"And so, my fellow Catholics: ask not what your Church can do for you--ask what you can do for your Church."

Enjoy,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 09, 2002.



Please someone answer Emerald's statement from above:

"So what you are saying is that a check is always made to make sure whether an annulment is needed... and that if the facts are actually accurate as stated above, probably no annulment is required?"

-- E Rich (srmidnte@aol.com), May 09, 2002.


The best choice to make is GO see a pastor and seek his advice on the situation and let YOUR local diocese Tribunal make the decision. The is a forum to discuss religious facts, not the Catholic Tibunal of experts on annulments.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 09, 2002.

Whenever there is a previous marriage of either party (Catholic or non-Catholic) the validity & Sacramentality of that prior bond must be investigated and dealt with by the Tribunal of the Diocese where the Catholic party resides. The marriage case mentioned by E. RIch seems to be invalid and non-Sacramental on two counts. "Lisa" is Cathllic and chose to get married outside of the Church "lack of form" and she had been married before "Ligamen" (Prior Bond). Paperwork still must be filled out and a decision from the local Tribunal needs to be obtained.

-- Father Chris LaBarge (marydelfr@starband.net), May 09, 2002.

Thank You Fr LaBarge, It is much what I thought took place as I have done this twice with my late wife in 1989. Passed on Dec 1992. And again last month with my current wife who converted to catholism on Easter Vigil. I sponsored her. THANKS BE TO GOD.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 09, 2002.

Thank you, Fr. L., for confirming the answer I gave earlier.
Dear E. Rich, I hope that you now are confident that you have a full response.
JFG
PS: As I think that you gathered from Fr. L.'s message, the answer to your question to me was "no." It is not a "preliminary check" being done, but an actual (though usually brief) nullity process.

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 09, 2002.


Jean, I wish you could realize how foolish half your messages are. You move from the sublime to the ridiculous and back again. I wish that you could just stay sublime, by simply having the humility to be an orthodox Catholic and abandoning your dissent and your utter abhorrence for people in positions of authority.

Above, you stated: "Further on this issue another friend is the niece of the current Pope. She had travelled to Rome asking him to annul her marriage which is based on pain and power not love. He refused resulting in her leaving the Church having affairs and is now currently a lost child. Surely understanding and compassion are needed in many cases."

First: The pope does not have any nieces! A niece is a daughter of one's sibling. The pope had a brother who died childless. Did you gullibly accept this tale about a niece from a liar, or did it perhaps come to you in a dream?

Second: You called for the pope to have "understanding and compassion," because you have the clairvoyant ability, from halfway around the world, to judge that he did not show those traits to his fictitious niece? Give us a break!

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 09, 2002.


John

Thanks for clearing that up for us Poles. That is a stigma we really can do without regarding the Holy Father and his socalled niece. I never read anything whatsoever of his having any siblings either. His mother died when was a very young child. About 6 years of age more or less. His father remained devoted to her the rest of his natural life.

Blessings

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 10, 2002.


This thread is perfect for those who question the need of a magisterium. E. Rich posts a question that I thought was easy, and I unwittingly answered it wrongly.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 10, 2002.

Emerald

WE all make mistakes. That is a gift of GOD to help us to learn when we recognize them and correct them.. I LOVE it. I can't say that i have had more fun. This forum is a great learning tool for all of us. Well almost all of us. I see you are catching on quite well. Watch out for that Hairdryer. It might stop a pacemaker when wet.

Blessings

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 10, 2002.


"So what you are saying is that a check is always made to make sure whether an annulment is needed... and that if the facts are actually accurate as stated above, probably no annulment is required?"

I don't think the responses above make the answer to this as clear could be.

A decree of nullity, also known as an "annulment", is always required in all cases where a previous marriage was attempted. An annulment is not a "Catholic divorce". It is simply a formal declaration that what appeared to be a marriage was not in fact valid.

As others have noted the case in question seems straightforward, so a decree of nullity seems easily obtained. More difficult cases would revolve around the question of whether both of the parties truly gave consent. Since (let's say) they both stood there and said "I do", the questions arise as to whether they were really free (e.g. psychologically) to consent, and whether they were really consenting to marriage properly understood. For example, if one of the parties intends never to allow non-contraceptive sexual intercourse, no marriage is contracted.

-- Michael J. Micek (mmgcl@micek.csz.com), May 11, 2002.


Michael

Again, we are telling you this: ALL new marriages are fully investigated by the Pastor and the tribunal to certify that the marriage meets the standards of the Catholic Church Canons and the local Tribunal. One cannot make this judgement on their own. It is the decision of the Tribunal that is what determines if the Marriage is to take place in the Church.

If a nullity of a previous marriage is to be needed then those steps will be taken as they develope.

I had to do this twice in order to have my marriage convalidated in the Church. It has been a standard of the Church for centuries. Do I have to say anymore?

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 11, 2002.


You Catholics are very entertaining with your responses. Is this religion for real???

-- Marie Drolet (MAD@ride.ri.net), June 18, 2002.

We are absolutely for real and we are direct decendants of the first Apostles of Christ. And that is without a doubt too.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 18, 2002.

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