comment from a teacher

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I must admit from the start that I am a teacher. I have fourteen years experience at a small rural public school. Most of the time, I love my job. I do love those kids, and they know it because it show it to them every day in small ways.

Because this is the way I earn a salary, I get a tad defensive when people who don't know how the system works start bashing and name calling.

Please please please go to your local school board meetings, volunteer at school, get on the sub list, and talk to your child's teacher about what the TEACHER is experiencing, as well as your child's academic career.

We are overwhelmed by paperwork, schedules, state and federal requirements, and local policies made by school board members who haven't been in a classroom in twenty years.

Have you voted in a recent school board election? We just had one, and only 70 people in the whole district voted. We have 500 students, pre-kindergarten through seniors, and I know that most of them have parents and grandparents living in our district, not to mention the other folks who live in the community, but don't have children in school. Just being conservative, let's say 2000 people in our district. The election was decided by 3.5% of the voters.

If you didn't vote, you participated in creating the system that is in place.

-- Rose (open_rose@hotmail.com), May 09, 2002

Answers

KUDOS to Rose. I am public school teacher, also. I have been a special education teacher for 23 years, love my job, my students and KNOW that I make a difference!!!

-- DW (djwallace@sotc.net), May 09, 2002.

I do vote, but I don't feel that parents should have to volunteer at school--does a firefighter expect people to don protective clothing and fight fires? Of course not, yet, for some reason schools feel that parents should work there for free. Why is that? Schools got along just fine without volunteers before.

If this is because of behavior problems (which I suspect is the big issue), then schools need to expel the problem children until they straighten out, maybe even fining the parents for their children's bad behavior.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 09, 2002.


No, I wasn't suggesting you volunteer to help with discipline. I just think good citizens should participate in the education of our youth. And, yes, I have ridden with the local policemen.

Volunteer where ever... get INVOLVED!

We can't expell them any more unless there is violence, a weapon, or drugs.

-- Rose (open_rose@hotmail.com), May 09, 2002.


GT wrote:

I do vote, but I don't feel that parents should have to volunteer at school--does a firefighter expect people to don protective clothing and fight fires? Of course not, yet, for some reason schools feel that parents should work there for free. Why is that?

No parents should not "have to" volunteer at their children's school. But for some *strange* reason, I would think (hope) they would WANT to. Now my question: Why is it parents don't want to be involved any more than they absolutely have to in their children's education? That's what I puzzle over.

Excellent post Rose. I'm not a teacher and could never be one for what they are expected to do nowadays above and beyond educating children usually for less pay than what a sanitation worker makes. . . That says something about our society, but I don't want to go there.

-- Renee M.

-- Renee M. (icehorse@altelco.net), May 09, 2002.


If the schools (this is an admin/district issue more than a teacher issue, I think) really valued parental input, it would be one thing, but they value 1) the parents' pocketbooks, and 2) their willingness to do "grunt work", even though in many cases the parents' educational level and degrees may equal or exceed the teacher's in various subjects (a teaching degree is not necessarily any better than a science or music or other degree, unless there is a shortage in one field or another). If it is okay to pay a teacher to teach, it should be okay to budget money to pay some other "teacher" credentialed or not, as long as they know the subject they're teaching.

Make a suggestion, and all too often you hear "we can't do this because of (the union, or so-and-so is tenured, or you have to have this or that degree before we'll pay attention to you (not said out loud, but the message is there), etc.)". Ordinary citizens get discouraged, and rightly so.

I can't tell you how many letters get written to the newspapers (especially around levy voting time) by teachers who think that their job is more important than everyone else's. And who is often gone after first to volunteer, because they're seen as "not having anything better to do?" Stay-at-home-Moms/Dads. Some of us have degrees too, we just made the choice to stay home with our children, but that doesn't mean we don't have a job. Just because we don't volunteer at school doesn't mean we don't volunteer for other things, either. There is only so much time in a day, lol.

I really think it gets back to people taking care of their own children and being responsible for them, not expecting "the village" to do it for them.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 09, 2002.



Renee, I have no problem being involved in the education of my children, but other people's children....

Also, you aren't expected to help your plumber fix the sink--you expect them to be able to do the job without you, that's why you're paying them to do it. In the case of teaching, what is wrong to expect that level of competence? That is the way it used to be, not all that long ago. There's something wrong with the schools when parents have to utilize private (and expensive) tutoring outfits like Sylvan Learning Centers to get extra help for their children.

It is easy to see why people decide to homeschool--why drive to the school to essentially "work" without pay when you can do the same thing at home without the wear and tear on the car, no need to dress up, at your convenience, not someone else's?

As to salary, well, sanitation and other workers usually work 48-50 weeks a year, most teachers I know don't, unless they want the extra money. In fact most teach because they really like the shorter work year, in addition to the fact they love their jobs and (depending upon the state and district, of course) good benefits. Every job has its good and bad points, you look into them before you sign on.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 09, 2002.


Somewhat of a tangent, but another interesting topic would be the voting process you've mentioned. Who were the "70 people" and were they actually informed enough to make any decision? 70 people or 700 people... makes little difference if only a small percentage of them are informed. I've voted many times... and often have no idea who I'm voting for or why. A logical man would realize that I'm really no better than those who do not vote. The solution is to develop a process where those who are voting actually are informed. Who is informed? If it were a school board election, perhaps members of the educational community. What is worse, the fact that only 70 people voted or the fact that the system is so designed that decisions are allowed to be made this way? (whether it be a minority or an uninformed majority) "If you didn't vote, you participated in creating the system that is in place". And if you did vote, you really participated in creating the system that is in place?

-- Bert (bert@sesamestreet.com), May 09, 2002.

GT wrote: > Renee, I have no problem being involved in the education of my children, but other people's children....<

. . . Who are your children's peers -- who they share the world with for a greater part of the day. . . Something to think about.

>Also, you aren't expected to help your plumber fix the sink--you expect them to be able to do the job without you,<

My plumber is not teaching my children the foundation of education that will carry him (or not) through life. I think I am a little more interested in the job my children's teachers do than what my plumber does. A bad plumbing job can be fixed, done over.

>That is the way it used to be, not all that long ago. There's something wrong with the schools when parents have to utilize private (and expensive) tutoring outfits like Sylvan Learning Centers to get extra help for their children. <

I'll be blunt. The problems are not in the schools. Kids are not the same as they "used to be" because parents are not raising them the same way as it "used to be". Kids today have no boundaries, no limits. They do not differeniate between themselves and adults. There is no respect, no common courtesy, no manners being taught at home and VERY little discipline. Half the class is on Ritalin for ADD and the other fashionable initial disorders. Is there a family left in America that hasn't been told at least one of their children has some acronym disorder? And every parent seems to welcome these labels being slapped on their child because hey, then it's not their fault little Johnny is a terror, he has a "disorder" you see. . . . How come we didn't have this in the time of "the way it used to be" I wonder? Now, put these children in a classroom with one person and expect her to teach them, and tie her hands when it comes to disciplining because little Johnny -- horrors -- cannot be made to feel "bad" or embarrased for his misconduct. In such circumstance, the most competent teacher in the world cannot do her job to the best of her abilities.

>As to salary, well, sanitation and other workers usually work 48-50 weeks a year, most teachers I know don't, unless they want the extra money.<

Perhaps having the summers off makes up for the 50+ hour weeks they put in during the school year at a 40 hour week salary.

There are bad teachers out there. As there are bad examples in every profession. But there are also many teachers who are bright, dedicated and gifted people when it comes to working with children. They are also frustrated. I can't say that I blame them witnessing the attitude and conduct of the children they are expected to educate, not to mention the detached parents too busy pursuing their own careers or otherwise unwilling to be these teachers' partners in the education of their child(ren).

-- Renee Martin (icehorse@altelco.net), May 09, 2002.


In real life (after school, that is), they aren't going to be around "peers", they're going to be around both older and younger people. Most of these peers they will (thankfully) never see again after high school.

I agree with you on the labels, and the parents wanting them to get extra time on the SAT and other tests, but there have even been teachers who "suggest" to parents that their kid may have ADD, or whatever, when a child may simply be "busy". That's sad too.

Other people put in extra hours on the job, and they know it comes with the job. But, they don't ask for volunteers to help them do their jobs, either. I also remember when parent/teacher conferences were held after school hours, not during them so that parents have to take off work to attend them--not everyone can get time off. In our area, there are like 2 weeks of minimum school days for this, so the teachers aren't staying late. Thank the unions for that.

And then when does "partnering" cross the line into "doing the teacher's job"? That's why I brought up the homeschooling issue. At some point, if the parent has to put in most of the actual work teaching his/her child something, or feels that it is necessary to physically keep an eye on what's going on at school (and that is a scary thought) there is no point in sending the child to school at all, at least from an education standpoint, unless you're using the school as daycare (which you're paying taxes on whether you use it or not) and resigning yourself to teaching (and unteaching some things learned at school) afterwards.

I agree there are good teachers out there. I also think that if all parents taught basic discipline, etc. before sending their children to school, we wouldn't even need to be discussing this.

What Bert brought up about the voting is interesting too. It can be very difficult to find out anything about school board candidates.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 10, 2002.


Okay, this is really none of my business, and you all make valid points, but GT, one you made just glared at me off the page!

I'm not a teacher but honestly, what job other than parenting could be more important that teaching? The children are our future....in my humble opinion, if we're going to have public schools, our teachers should be one of the highest paid professions, at least in line with the president!

-- Cj (sheep@katahdins.net), May 10, 2002.



Teachers are not paid for the summers. We are paid for 180 classroom days. Anyone who thinks we do this for the money is sadly misinformed.

I am NOT asking for volunteers to 'do my job.' I was simply pointing out a way to find out REAL information instead of ranting at a system that most folks know little about except for what they ASSUME and the current gossip and rumors.

Volunteering in school is not a new idea. We ask businessment to come in and speak to the students. We have the military recruiters come in and talk about staying off drugs and staying in school. We have assemblies where Christian body builders talk about keeping their lives headed in the right direction. YES, this is a public school.

If 'stay at home moms' resent being asked to volunteer, shame on them. They are being asked to participate a smidgen more in the most important job in the world. Bringing up the next generation.

This is not a contest between the schools and the public. One of the reasons I treasure the principal we have is that he sees that the parents and the schools need to work together, not against each other.

-- Rose (open_rose@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.


I am paid to be home all summer. But, I deserve it. Call it vacation at low pay. GT: Research has proven that the successful schools have a high incidence of parent volunteers. I worked in a division that had many parent and community volunteers, and the program was very successful! We had a high number of retired citizens that were an asset to the program. I wish I had a parent volunteer for every block I teach. GT it sounds like sour grapes on your end. You need to do some research. Rose: I said all of this before. Check the archives.

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), May 10, 2002.

I do not consider getting a check all summer being paid to stay home in Missouri, and I'm sure in other states,you have the option to spread your salary over 9 or 12 months you still get the same amount so how does this come out as being paid for staying home. We as teachers need the summer off to de-stress and just roll along teaching is a stressful job sometimes more so then others. I enjoy teaching and wouldn't want to do any other job but just to keep your sanity de-stressing just has to be.

I agree with the others support your school and the teachers GET INVOLVED. Sally

-- (mallardhen67@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.


When you are salary- you work when your contract states. I am off all summer and I still get paid. That is the great thing about teaching. Other jobs are more or about as stressful as teaching. And they get a week or two. We have off during the summer thanks to the old farming/harvest times of yesteryear. I hope it stays forever!!!!!Whoooo Hoooo 21 days till I sit back, sun, swim,and collect my check!

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), May 10, 2002.

Well, the business people are often (depending upon the company) given free time off (not charged against vacation, that is), and military recruiters, that is part of their duties, to go to schools, malls, etc. A lot of those assemblies are put on by people paid to be there, and parents often aren't even asked about whether they want them there at school or not in the first place. Look at how much time is spent in fundraising assemblies, which is the worst example of wasting class time. Why not an assembly brainstorming solutions from the students on how to save money for the school instead?

And, yet another career devalues staying home with the children. A career made up of women in large part, who should know better.

Having a degree or a credential does not necessarily a teacher make. Having specific knowledge and a skill (not sure that that's always teachable, same with leadership, for example, you either are born with it or you're not in most cases) for imparting it does.

I have learned many things from people with and without pieces of paper, who are not officially "teachers". A lot of computer people out there have no degrees, but they can and do keep up with their certifications, or they learn on their own, and make themselves indispensable that way.

I don't think that "teaching" per se (in the greater sense of K-12 career type) is necessarily more important than other jobs--it is a different job, certainly, but every job has its good and bad. Once you learn how to read, you can pretty much learn anything you want on your own through videos, CDs, etc., not necessarily a live person. It is not difficult in most states to get a degree or credential (no more difficult than say, getting one in English Lit or Public Administration, for example).

I do support what teachers are doing for the most part, but I just don't feel it necessary to actually volunteer in school to show that support. That doesn't mean I don't volunteer for causes I don't have to leave home/children to do, or for things I can do independently of others, I do. There will always be plenty of opportunities for volunteer work in lots of different areas. All are equally valid.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 10, 2002.



I hate fundraisers, you are right...who ever sees that money? I raised more money for the 5th grade graduation by selling freeze pops. .25 each. And we USED the money. Also, the art of teaching is really teaching and individual to learn independently - you are right. I agree with GT on these points. And how horrible am I? I love volunteers, but I WILL NOT do anything for free myself. Just the way I am. (Been hungry too many times!)

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), May 10, 2002.

well, let me start off by saying we were a homeschooling family til they all graduated.

Also I am a newspaper reporter (going on 23 years now) and I have covered boards of education (both city and county) in three counties.

The teachers in Alabama just fought for and got another RAISE while students are forced to carry their own toliet paper and soap to school....teachers fought for this raise with the knowledge that the state budget has gone whacko this year and they will have to lay off some of the less tenured teachers....

Also, someone who is a teacher here said that teachers only get paid for the number of days they teach....well, here teachers get paid for the 9 or 10 months of their contracts....and they still make much more then "normal" working folks do in 12 months.....and Alabama teachers make less than most in the U.S.

Most public schools cry out for parental involvement but then most of the parents rights have been taken away. Parents can get arrested if their kids miss too much school but it's not generally because the boards are interested in the kids' educations....it'sb ecause funding is based on Average Daily Attendance....if the kids are there, the school's money is cut the next year!

I know there are some dedicated good teachers still and some good public schools still but they are FEW and FAR BETWEEN.

-- Suzy in Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), May 10, 2002.


oh, let me add one more thing, I did do my practice teaching at one time but I changed professions....I wouldn't put up with the crap.

-- Suzy in Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), May 10, 2002.

My wife spent three years teaching high school - Latin, humanities and English. I *wish* she could have only spent forty hours a week on that job. It was actually more like 60-70 depending on the load that week. The reason for this is that she actually read and graded the papers that her students turned in and worked hard to craft meaningful lesson plans and locate resources for their education. These were not things she could do during her classroom hours. Mostly they had to be at home - on *my* time.

There's plenty of blame to spread around: teacher's unions, school boards, local, state and federal goverments and on and on and on but after some years of thinking about it I think mostly it comes back to the same place ever time. Parents.

The reason I say that is the vast majority of parents just don't get actively involved in what their kids are experiencing. If they did then a lot of the nuttiness we're afflicted with from the teacher's unions, school boards and at least local governments would begin to go away. Won't happen though because most parents won't give up their glass tit (TV), sports and other leisure time activities long enough to be bothered. Heck, let's not limit this to just schools, it's the same problem afflicting the nation on just about any topic.

Put a bullet through your televsion and realize that golf and football are not meaningful ways to spend the hours of your life. Pay attention to what your kid are experiencing in school and the way these experiences are shaping them for better or, likely, worse.

Most won't though. I can't conceive of any means that won't kill large numbers of people that will ever lead them to do it.

So be it.

This is why those of us who begin to realize the importance are starting to make the sacrifices that we must to homeschool our kids.

.........Alan.

-- Alan (athagan@atlantic.net), May 10, 2002.


So, teachers want the parents to get more involved? Well, isn't that nice. When...the evenings after we get home from a long day at work, or the weekends when we're all finally home together? For the most of us parents who are out in the regular working world, we get paid by the hour and if we miss an hour to go volunteer at our kids school, we don't get paid! Most of us need every penny of our pay check to make ends meet.

That's how the real world is, teachers! Most of us don't have a union to hide behind to do all the whining. If the average Joe or Jill at work whined like your union does, we would all be fired!!!! Go find a job elsewhere our employers would say.

I'm curious as to how many teachers have worked in the "real" world before they started their teaching job.

Funny, but I don't hear the whining from private school teachers, I wonder why?

-- Joy in Eastern WA (jparkes@spfarm.com), May 10, 2002.


My mother was a teacher (now retired), so how could she volunteer in her childrens' classrooms? She hated having moms come in to 'help' because she had to supervise them as well as teach. If my children were in public or private schools, I would probably work at least part time away from home - we could use the money. Most mothers work nowadays. Those of us who stay home are homeschooling. I also work part time at home. It doesn't pay as well as a regular job, but I prefer to be home with my children.

And by the way, my mother fully supports our homeschooling. She thinks that most public schools - & some private - give an inferior education.

-- Bonnie (stichart@plix.com), May 10, 2002.


Hey GT, you're spot on in regards to the teachers wanting parent volunteers in the classroom. My own experience showed me that what they really wanted was staplers, cutters, and paper correctors. They DID NOT want educational help, not even from college graduates with English degrees like myself. I offered to conduct a once-a-week reading group with REAL children's literature (as opposed to textbook committee-written twaddle) for the top readers in my son's class who were way beyond the grade level in reading. I got blank stares and refusals to accomodate my son, as well as the other students, who were languishing with the grade-level stuff. Of course, the schools still kept pumping out their propoganda mission statements wherein they proclaim they provide "outstanding educational opportunity" where "each student can reach his academic potential" yada yada yada. My son's second grade year was an eye-opening experience and I saw myself fighting this system for the next 20 years if I stayed. So I left.

-- gita (gita@directcon.net), May 10, 2002.

As my happily unschooled daughters usually say as we pass a school in session. "Open the prison doors!! Free the children!!"

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), May 10, 2002.

You don't have to volunteer to spend time in the classroom. If you want to do so and learn how to be a help rather than a hindrance that's great!

What you can do is go to your school board meetings and pay attention. You got something like a PTA? What are they doing? Don't know? Then GO to the meetings! These people have a great deal of control over your children's lives and you should know who's who and what it is they are up to.

We are talking about YOUR children here. YOUR children who spend six to eight hours a day in the schools being taught by other people. If you don't have a clue as to what's going on in your child's classroom, most especially the lessons your children are learning that are not in the syllabus (and there are a LOT of them) then you have no idea what your child is doing for 30-40 hours a week nine months of the year.

Would you let your children hang out at the mall without any idea of what they were doing 30-40 hours a week? Why would you do so at the school?

Well, after having been trapped in a mall security job for a couple of years I do know that way too many parents will let their kids hang out at the mall 30-40 hours a week unsupervised. We did give their parents the occasional progress report though when they had to go down to the county jail to pick them up. That was one of the more educational jobs I've ever had in my life.

The nature of homesteaders being what it is this is mostly preaching to the choir but I did want to make the point.

...........Alan.

-- Alan (athagan@atlantic.net), May 10, 2002.


Alan, Thank you for your well-thought-out, eloquent posts which were right on the money: Apathetic and/or over-extended parents are truely at the core of the problems with our public schools. So many parents don't see their priorities are out of line. Instead, they grow resentful and lash out, wanting someone or some other entity to be responsible for what is wrong. Some of the posts made here give more support to that end than anything we could say. So many things seem to come before the children in our culture. Instead, they receive the "left over" time. And media telling us as long as it's an hour of "quality" time spent, that will make up for the other 23. . . It's really sad. . . -- Renee Martin

-- Renee Martin (icehorse@altelco.net), May 10, 2002.

My second grade daughter reads at an eighth grade level, she's effecient in 5th grade math. My kindergardener can read at a third grade level, second grade math. My four year old can read as well as recognizing the whole alphabet. Do you think this is the result of their teachers at school? NO! My husband and I work with our children every evening with school work. We read to them and they read to us. No TV for our kids during the week! We teach them computer skills and art. My husband is a fine artist and he takes the kids out on the weekends to do paintings and drawings! We attend every parent-teacher conference, we go to the kids school performances. Now, you tell me we're not involved in our kids education because we don't volunteer or go to the school board meetings!

-- Joy in Eastern WA (jparkes@spfarm.com), May 10, 2002.

>As to salary, well, sanitation and other workers usually work 48-50 weeks a year, most teachers I know don't, unless they want the extra money.<

>Perhaps having the summers off makes up for the 50+ hour weeks they put in during the school year at a 40 hour week salary.

Here in New York teachers can make 100k a year for a 5 day a week 10 month schedule. It's about time we made them a 12 month with two weeks off for vacation worker like people in the real world.

Our school taxes are 2500 to 4000 per HOUSE on Long Island. Salesmen, secretaries, and clerks often work long hours with just as stress and mental exertion and don't get compensated anywhere like that. Only government workers on the taxpayers rolls do. Private school teachers here make a lot less.

It's time to take the social agenda out of the schools, put the emphasis back on learning and make the teachers (and administrators) earnings based on how well they teach, not tenure.

When my daughter was in 5th grade it was the teachers last year before retiring. Officially that is. The idiot didn't want to put herself out the last year and it showed. Let the kids do whatever they wanted, didn't make an effort to help ANY student, etc. The principal told me there was nothing he could do. She was tenured. I told him he should have sent her home now and hired someone who cared. It would have been better for the students to pay her to stay home for her last year.

-- Robin (darkdakota@aol.com), May 11, 2002.


I'm sure there are wonderful teachers out there. Ones who would be teaching with or without a paycheck because that is what they love to do. In my lifetime I had two good teachers and the rest would have served the public better by suicide or retirement. IMHO, there should be NO public education system. Let each family be SOLELY respondsible for the education of their own children.

I know we would lose a few but we would save more than we would lose. Frankly, the school is a sespool, a breeding ground of every disease known to man. You would be better off to shoot your children yourself and save them the heartache of attending a public school !!!

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), May 11, 2002.


Homeschooling is the answer for me. Trying to define the problem with public schools is nearly impossible at this point. It is like a cancer that has spread all over the system. Parents expect too much from schools, thinking that thier kids will learn manners, how to get along, respect authority and learn. Teachers are often no different than anyone who works; they feel overworked and underpayed no matter how much time they get off or how much they are paid, they point the finger elsewhere as to why they can't do a better job. Administrators are so caught up looking for funding they lose site of the goal: education.

Did anyone catch the report that something like 57% of high school students escentially failed basic American History on a recent test. These test scores have been sliding into the mud for nearly 20 years. Things are not getting better in schools, they are getting worse. It is not one groups fault either; responsibility does not rest soley on parents or teachers or administrators, it is collective. The system is broken and beyond repair. The only way a child will have a decent education is if the family ensures it and pays attention to every detail regardless of what they choose to do; public school, private school, charter school, or home school.

People will say they can't afford to have one person working and one stay home. I say give up about 1000 square feet of living space, going out to dinner all the time, wearing trendy clothes, driving a NEW car, having 3 cars a boat etc etc etc. Lose the cable bill, the cell phone bill, the lawn service bill. Grow some of your own food, teach your kids that carrots grow in the ground! It's every man/woman for themselves these days. Step up!

-- Jenn H. (jhammer@systime.com), May 11, 2002.


Joy, it sounds like you have the right idea and you and your husband are active participants in your child(ren)'s education! Bravo!! My post was not directed at parents such as you and your husband, but rather at the other 50% (or higher) who can't be bothered to contribute or take an interest in their child's development. It is especially disheartening to read their reasoning is because they aren't being paid to do so . .

And to the person in New York who wrote:

Here in New York teachers can make 100k a year for a 5 day a week 10 month schedule.

Our school taxes are 2500 to 4000 per HOUSE on Long Island.

Long Island, huh? Gee, do you think the cost of living might be a *tad* higher than other places in the country so the teacher's salaries are higher accordingly?? Proportionately, with the Long Island's high cost of living expenses, your Long Island teachers aren't any richer than the teacher in Missouri who makes $32,000 a year. Cost of living varies around the country and one has to look at the big picture before citing a salary alone as proof positive that teachers are overpaid. I can't believe I have to explain this, but apparently so. I've said enough on this subject. As I said before, what's wrong with our education system is very evident by the content of some of the posts here.

-- Renee Martin (icehorse@altelco.net), May 11, 2002.


Renee, I am the person form New York (I guess reading the sig is too hard)

Teachers that work 5 days a week, 10 months a year are not worth 100k even accounting for Long Island's cost of living. It's closer to a teacher in the midwest making 60k. If the want the 100k they should have to put in the average professional's hours in New York. 45-55 hours a week, 12 months a year with a 2-3 week vacation.

My guess is that if we got rid of the teacher's union and tenure and made it a competative job like the real world you would find a long line of applicants for a 100k, 12 month job.

-- Robin (darkdakota@aol.com), May 11, 2002.


Renee, what frustrates so many parents of school age children is the constant whining we hear from the teacher's unions and the steady decline of a real education. Our children need to know the basics, from reading to math and an indepth study of American history. The political correctness crap has got to leave our schools as well as the social engineering that's going on. Maybe if the teachers just taught the basics, life for them would be a lot easier. In the meantime, their unions need to take a hard look in the mirror. It's not a pretty sit

-- Joy in Eastern WA (jparkes@spfarm.com), May 11, 2002.

Oops, I meant "sight"

-- Joy in Eastern WA (jparkes@spfarm.com), May 11, 2002.

I have no problems with my childrens public school. Although some schools probably are cesspools and like prisons, the majority are not. The biggest problem in schools today can be traced back to the parents. I have yet to meet a teacher at the local school here who isn't caring and enthusiastic about their job. I have yet to see any evidence of politically correct social engineering type material. The teachers I know and even the school psychologist are very much against doping kids up with ritalin or diagnosing every troubled kid as having ADD. The law here states that a teacher cannot even recommend those things. I had this discussion with a few here and they say it's the parents who don't want to take responsibility with their kids so they get them doped up to make their life easier. Please do not blame teachers for that mess. Blame the parents and doctors that freely write prescriptions. It's pretty common nowadays to walk into just about any doctors office, complain of some neurological or emotional problem and walk out with a bunch of scripts for pills.

I don't think teachers or students should have to deal with kids whose parents don't teach them discipline, manners etc. Those things are not the responsibility of the school. That's about the only complaint from teachers I ever hear around here- parents who don't get involved or feel they aren't responsible for their own child once they get on the school bus.

My sons teacher sends a progress report home every Friday for every student. The parent is supposed to read it, sign it and it goes back on Monday. I appreciate that she does that but I'm told about half the parents ignore it. Here she's going out of her way to let people know how their child is doing and they don't even care. Yet let one of their kids get out of control and be disciplined or get a bad grade and they're the first to show up complaining about how unfair they're being treated.

It bothers me that teachers get the blame for what goes on in public schools yet nobody ever seems to mention anything about parents. I also don't understand why some people can't realize that just because you send your child to a public school, that doesn't mean you can't also homeschooling at the same time. I think 100% homeschooling can end up just as detrimental to a childs development if they have no social interraction or exposure to real-world situations on a routine basis. The way the world is may be screwed up but sheltering your children from it will not help prepare them to deal with it properly. I've lost count of how many people I've seen do ok as a child but are totally lost when they become an adult because they can't adapt to different situations, different views or anything other than the sheltered world they came from.

On a different note, our elementary schools in the district here are year round and I really like it alot. 3 months on and 1 month off year round. At first I thought it was strange but now I think it's ideal for the students and teachers. It works better for me also. I wonder why more districts aren't doing this.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), May 12, 2002.


Dave - as for me, I don't always blame the teachers, but you do have to wonder about the kids that can graduate from our public schools with no idea of how to read or write. Go ask kids at their graduation if they know who wrote the Declaration of Independence, or who the first president of the US was or which is the 50th state to join the union. Show them a map and ask them to point out North Dakota or Iowa. You may be amazed at what you find! Is that because the parents failed them or a school system?

There's enough blame to go all around, but I would have to put a bulk of it on the system. Parents send their kids to school to learn. That's what they pay their taxes for. Many parents don't or want to partake in their kids education and shame on them for that! But, that shouldn't be a reason why a kid can cruise through school and not know what 2+2 is.

As for homeschooling, I feel that parents have the right to raise their kids and teach them the way they see fit. As we have seen, most kids that win speeling bees, and science fairs are home schooled. Yes, they may live a little more of a sheltered life, but what's wrong with that? I'm sure most of these kids have friends and probably attend church on a regular basis. I think that's plenty of time for socializing!

Like I said in a previous post, I strongly feel that my husband and myself are providing the bulk of our kids educating. They will breeze through school without any problem. If they stumble along the way, we will be there

-- Joy in Eastern WA (jparkes@spfarm.com), May 12, 2002.


Except for something truly specialized (like music lessons, or math for some of us), most parents are quite capable of teaching their children ANYTHING that they would be learning in any K-12 school, public or private. We also are quite capable of Unteaching a lot of the junk that is taught in schools these days, and we do *sigh*. Just because parents don't volunteer in the classrooms is no indication of whether they care about their children's education or not. And our responsibility is to our own children, not someone else's.

I only bring up the pay issue because, again, there are educators out there who seem to think that people have nothing better to do than volunteer at schools--well, we are SAHMs (and Dads), we have outside jobs, we take care of ill relatives, we have other causes just as worthy as the schools to contribute time and money to that DON'T have a built-in government bureaucracy feeding them, etc. Teachers are in short supply in many places--many of us with degrees could walk into one of those jobs right now, if we wanted to, so why volunteer if we could get paid and have a job?

If a child is doing well in school, there is no need to send a progress report home every week--I can see why a lot of parents ignore them-- that's pure busywork on the part of the school admin.

As to year-round school, it is great if your children are only going to school (no extracurricular activities like sports). Once they get involved in other activities, however, you are no longer off for any length of time. Can you see the football coach excusing you from practice for a month because you're off from school? No way! At that point, you're not really on break, and if you're providing your own transportation, you're definitely losing money right and left. Maybe up to 6th grade, but after that, forget it.

As taxpayers, we have the right to expect our school system to work, with or without the parents--teachers can't say on the one hand "we're professionals, we know better than parents", and then on the other hand, "we can't do it without the parents" and take a salary with a straight face.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 12, 2002.


You can blame the teachers, you can blame the parents, you can blame the kids. The truth is, all are equally to blame or responsible. However, our current politically correct society is the main villain here. There are many good teachers, but there are also many that are trying to be politically correct. There are many parents that care about their kids and know exactly what they are doing at all hours and there are those that don't care a whit. There are numerous good kids out there, and there are many rotten apples.

The major problem in my estimation is the liberal do-gooders that have invaded the system and try to make the rest of us feel guilty because we don't think like them. They have their blinders on and refuse to accept the fact that there are some people that need to be whacked by a 2x4 to get their attention. As a former supervisor of a number of employees, parent of 5 good and decent adult children, and after retirement, a school bus driver, I always tried to stick by an old standard taught to me by one of the most fair supervisors I have ever known. That is, the first time someone screws up, give them the benefit of the doubt and explain what they did wrong and why and the consequences of further incursions. The second time of a similar offense, follow through with the promised punishment. Third offense, fire them. Or in the case of children, paddle their butts and with the school bus, get them kicked off permanently.

I quit driving school bus because there was no way I could follow through. The bleeding heart liberal school authorities could not tolerate the idea of this poor child not being able to get to school. Part of the problem had to do with funding. One less kid in school cut the school budget.

What prompted me to respond on the forum to this posting was a headline in our local paper last week. Four 17 year olds beat a man almost to death, poured hot wax on him and urinated on him, then left him to die in an unheated shed in the winter. Four months later, the authorities finally got around to arresting these kids but only after the parents of the victim complained loudly. Three of the young hoodlums were passengers on a shool bus route I drove when they were in Middle school and I had problems with them constantly, but could not get them off the bus. I knew that one day I would see their names in the paper as violators of the law. I drove bus for 6 years and almost every kid that created problems for me on the school bus has had their name in the police column in the paper since then. Very few of these kids were ever penalized strongly for their indiscretions on the school bus and I assume within the school itself.

My point is that at a young age, these hoodlums start to go astray. They need to be brought up short at that time, first with a warning and explanations of their errors, second offense, mild punishment and on the third offense severe punishment. Failure to learn after that point indicates they are of little value to society and should be locked up.

My point is

-- Mac in AK (Nospam@no.spam), May 12, 2002.


Last line should have been deleted

-- Mac in AK (nospam@no.spam), May 12, 2002.

I am the grandmother of 4 grandchildren. Three of whom I homeschool. Their parents have decided that they want certain values to be instilled in their children. They feel that this would not happen in government school. They understand that teachers as a whole work very hard and are working under difficult circumstances, however with the current value-free system in place particularly in our state, they are not comfortable. With the local homeschooling group very active, our family feels fortunate to interact with them. I will admit that many would not want this education for their children or grandhchildren and private schools are unavailable to them, but if you find it necessary to send your children to government school, then take all the necessary steps to insure your children are getting the best education they can get.

grandmaschool.

-- Mary Smith (rasberryacres@yahoo.com), May 12, 2002.


The progress reports sent home every Friday aren't required by the school admin. It's the teachers idea. It's not mandatory. It's usually just a sentence or two but at least it lets me know that the teacher is actually paying attention to her students. I think it's real nice that the teacher puts out an extra effort like that. The parents who ignore it are the parents who probably don't have a care what goes on in school and are just glad their kids are someone elses responsibility for the day.

The year round school is only for k-6 here. Extracurricular sports for children that age here are supported by the community instead of the school district.

Teaching children values is important of course. That should be done by the parent regardless of whether the child is homeschooled or goes to public school. It's not just the schools with a value-free attitude. It's our entire society, just look around or turn on the tv.(no tv here) When my children are exposed to a lack of values, I use that as an example to teach them why they should have values. I feel it's wrong to shelter yourself from the world and pretend those things don't exist. I'd rather my kids learn to deal with those things than be sheltered from them and have a hard time adapting an idealized view with reality when they become adults. I'm not against homeschooling but I'm against only showing children a narrow view of the world. I'm teaching my kids the skills to survive whether in the woods or the ghetto. I know too many people already who can't function outside of the security of what's familar to them.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), May 12, 2002.


Dave, I see your point about too much sheltering, although I know many parents who probably would be better off homeschooling if they weren't going to let their kids go to the prom, for instance, or if their values (and not even religious ones, perhaps just common sense ones like "don't follow the crowd, think for yourself") are so in conflict with the schools that their children would be outcasts and probably miserable the entire time anyway. Why expose them to such a hostile environment in the first place, especially when they might not be people you want them associating with anyway?

Also, school is not necessarily indicative of real life (especially of the working world) afterwards, unless you are going to choose teaching as your life's work. I don't know very many people who homeschool their children in a vacuum--they just try to expose them to a different environment.

My main issue with the progress reports was, if a child is getting straight A's, or a B average, it is a bit of overkill on the teacher's part to send these things home every week. Kind of goes with another gripe I have, that teachers are assigning homework that seems to be directed more towards the parents than the students--to the point where the students who are getting the good grades are the ones whose parents are doing the homework for them (especially evident with science fair projects), and you do not have a true assessment of how well the child is doing in the first place. I understand helping with homework, but not assigning homework that is clearly beyond the student's capability because the foundation for say, looking up the information was not taught in school. At that point, that is again, another reason why people are looking at homeschooling--they're doing the teaching anyway, as Joy points out.

I had read some articles recently on high schools that were talking about going to double shifts, so that is why I mentioned what I did about extracurricular activities. The articles even mentioned siblings forced to be on different shifts, which to parents would be a nightmare.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 13, 2002.


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