MARILYN MANSONgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
Dear all.Helo again.
Regarding MARILYN MANSON. The rock star anti-christ who wears black lipstick.
What do people here think of him. Anyone used to listen to him, used to be a fan. Is still a fan and still listens to him??? What do you think of him, and how he stands in relation to our catholic faith.
I used to listen to him. Bought about 4 of his albums. Listened to him every day. When I woke up, before I went to bed, in bed. It seriously damaged me in. Undisputidly, it ceratainly damaged me one way or another.
Who thinks that music can have an effect on us. Anybody think it doesnt? I certainly think it can do both GOOD and BAD for you. Both physically, mentaly and spiritually. And I also think Manson has a very bad effect for us, especially on our spirituall lives. I still have a lot of damage from listening to him myself.
OPPINIONS PLEASE PEOPLE.
LOVE AND HOPE
DOMINIC
-- Dominic (domngel@hotmail.com), May 15, 2002
Dominic,You wrote:
"It seriously damaged me in."
I doubt doubt the effects of listening to MM music; but, would you share with us how the music "damaged" you? How has it affected your peers?
Just curious,
Mateo
-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 15, 2002.
I wrote:I doubt doubt
I meant
I don't doubt
-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 15, 2002.
I am in agreement with Mateo as I am teacher of music amd classical guitar. Should you wnt to hear socalled eerie music may I suggest the Carmina Burana by Karl Orf.It is a clevration in sound of the four stages of live - birth - life - love - death. Supurb. Do not know of MM stuff but there is great deal of what could be termed eerie music.
-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 15, 2002.
MARILYN MANSON ,I like his music , his lyrics doesn't interest me a bit !! __ As an artist , he does doing a great show , it sells , you can't deny that !! __ But on some people , it has a bit TOO MUCH influence , they dress like him , they act like him , that's stupid , especially if you gonna live/act like MARILYN MANSON !! __ Be Yourself !!!!
But why always some people complain about this , there are more things that infects people in a much bad/evil way !! __ Why don't you ban radio & TV !! __ Everything you see it seems to be bad , well that makes me SAD , MAD , angry !!!! __ Why always be that negative on things ??
Like I wrote before , I do play metal , does this mean I am evil ????
Jimi Hendrix , is this evil ?? __ Janis Joplin , is this evil ??
Napalm Death , is this evil ?? __ Shakira , is this evil ??
In the 50s' , Rock'n Roll was evil , in some places they destroyed records , pictures , radio didn't turn these kind of records , well , they were wrong !!
You knwow what , ban everything that could be used for evilness !!!!
What is right in your eyes , tell me ??
Greets from a NON BELIEVER
-- Laurent LUG. (my__way_@hotmail.com), May 16, 2002.
Dear Dominic, sleep easy young man."I still have a lot of damage from listening to him myself."
WHY DOMINIC? THE SATAN THING IS THE MOST OBVIOUS CON JOB, HES ACTUAcLLY A RATHER NORMAL PERSON MAKING ALOT OF MONEY PARADING AS THE ANTI CHRIST
I wouldnt get too stressed about Mariyln Manson, he would love you to take him seriously. I for one wouldnt, he and his music are nothing but a rather bad lame joke.
MM the self procalimed anti christ, who is some sort of dark servant of satan- he only wishes! He is a very clever man, no doubt about that, but do not fall for his glam satan thing. MM is just one of a long line of 'shock rockers' that began with Alice Cooper.
He realised that he could make a lot of money appealing to dissafected juvenile white males on a platform of sex drugs and satanism. His crass manipulative music struck a chord with the post grunge youth market on the back of a masterfully orhestrated marketing campaign.
That the religious and political conservative right came to the party and played the game was unfortunate. Encouraged by the publicity from the right, his notoriety began to soar — most infamously, during an appearance in Salt Lake City, Manson ripped apart a copy of the Book of Mormon while onstage. The Church of Satan's founder Anton LaVey also bestowed upon him the title of "Reverend."
His quick embrace of the media spotlight called into question the true sincerity of his revolutionary aims — with a cover story in Rolling Stone and a best-selling autobiography, The Long Hard Road Out of Hell, some onlookers doubted whether Manson had sold his soul to Satan, or just sold his soul, period. (Source AMG)
-- Courtenay (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 16, 2002.
Hey Laurent Man if they want to ban the greatest contributor to evil i think they should start with the catholic church. Man, did that ever commit evil and is still doing so.
-- tom (imgul@ible.com), May 16, 2002.
oh no. looks like mm has bought a few of his friends along via google
-- Courtenay (csiherwood@hotmail.com), May 16, 2002.
August last year , I did found this forum via google , yes indeed !! __ But MM has nothing to do with it !! __ Is it wrong to like the MM music ??Greets from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG. (my__way_@hotmail.com), May 16, 2002.
I was refering to Tom
-- Courtenay (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 16, 2002.
Laurent,I am glad you found this forum. I can feel in my heart that you are a kind man. I will never stop praying for you friend. Rember when "Kind Chris Butler" told you, that you always have a room upstairs in this Catholic forum?
You are the one that taught me about, St. Kolbe. Thanks.
God bless you.
David
-- David (David@excite.com), May 16, 2002.
In answer to all this(MattElFeo@netscape.net) You told and asked me:
I doubt doubt the effects of listening to MM music; but, would you share with us how the music "damaged" you? How has it affected your peers?
It has damaged me because I was listening to lyrics such as " were on a bullet and were heading straight into God, even he liked to end it too" and "slit our wrists and send us to heaven" pretty much every night. It plagued and slowly rotted my souls and unboubtly was the cause to my bad behaviour (increasingly bad) at home.
Hev did help me towards my A in G.C.S.E. art, as I used his album covers in my paintings... My final piece was his decapitated head held by a hand...!!! But an A in art was not worth my soul. AH AH...
DOM AGAIN
-- Dominic (domngel@hotmail.com), May 27, 2002.
I think that if lyrics or any type of "art" is offensive to God, or even to yourself, one should avoid it. There are some songs that simply rub me the wrong way. It may be some underlying message, or whatever, so I try to avoid it. If you think of God as somebody you love, you'll want to be as far away from satanic music as possible. It's amazing how our subconscious work.
-- Cesar Abeid (abeid@canada.com), March 17, 2003.
Oh brother! Sounds like your just passing the buck because you just cant handle it. If you dont like the music don't listen to it. The music does not MAKE anyone kill. The musicians should not be held responsible because some young troubled teen commits suicide or hurts others while listening to a particular song. Rock/heavy metal has gotten a bad rap and it's just plain sickening to blame your actions on music or musicians.You mention Marilyn Manson wears black, so what!! Motorcycists wear black, you gonna blame them for your problems too? For crying out loud we had a 7 foot purple dino walking around here talking & singing songs to kids, now that was weird:) Big deal. Michael Jackson sleeps w/young boys, that doesn't mean his music is gonna make normal men want to sleep w/boys. Queen's lead singer was gay, does that mean everyone who listens to their music is gonna be gay, no!! Look at the trouble good old Willie Nelson's been in, does that we're all gonna have tax problems?
Your question "What do you think of him, and how he stands in relation to our catholic faith." I think MM himself is rather strange. I do have several of his albums. I love the song,"Beautiful People". He does put on an awsome stage show!! Actually he's playing Ozzfest this year and I'm seriously considering going because, yes, I want to see MM and his show. However, he has absolutely no effect on my faith. He's a musician, an actor who want to get your attention so you'll buy his music. I like all kinds of different music and I couldn't even tell you who all the singers are. It just doesn't matter. I listen because it makes me happy, I don't listen to please anyone else.
And if MM has had such a bad effect on you, I can't even begin to imagine how former Pres. Clinton term in office had on you! That man, on the other hand has had a profound effect on all of us, and he just plays the sax. And, God forbid, has the current sex scandal in the church effected your spiratuality? Are you gonna blame the bad priest for your problems too?
Dominic, if you think Manson has a very bad effect you, especially on your spiritual life, you need some serious help. You can not blame others for your spiritual life being....not up to par, YOU and you alone are responsible for that! If you need help, you need to seek it, but don't start blaming others for something they have no control over.
May God bless you and keep you safe!
-- Choas (Choas@ivillage.com), March 20, 2003.
There's no doubt about it. MARILYN MANSON is one of the most evil human beings alive on this earth today. To think of all the lives this evil devil worshiper has influenced scares me. This hideous creature and monsters like him are becoming the roll models for our young people. They don't want to know anything about the Virgin Mary or St. Vincent De Paul, they’re more interested in what these devil monster musicians are doing. I watched a documentary on Marilyn Manson and he stated that he would like to be the individual to cause the fall of Christianity. He also burns huge crosses during his concerts as part of his show and he looks more like a demon than a human. He is evil evil evil and you should not listen to his music or permit your children to listen to it or anything like it.
-- Mick (mcbailey@citynet.net), May 08, 2003.
Marilyn?
Let's call him (and pray for him) by his real name ...
Michael Warner -- born January 5, 1969, in Canton, Ohio -- the birthplace of Mother Mary Angelica Rizzo of EWTN.
Let's especially talk to his patron saint, Michael, who casts out demons with the power of God.
JFG
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 08, 2003.
Jesus tells us to Love one another as He loves us. He also tells us not to judge.Peace & Love
-- Choas (Choas@nomail.com), May 09, 2003.
Jmj
Hello, Choas.There is a difference between "judg[ing]" a person and his actions.
You wrote that Jesus "tells us not to judge."
I hope that you will agree that this means we are not allowed to "judge" Michael "M. Manson" Warner as a human being. That is, we cannot read his mind and heart, so we cannot know (as God knows) whether or not he is in a state of mortal sin and on the road to hell.However, I hope that you will also agree that it is wrong (and probably impossible) for us to avoid "judg[ing]" the specific acts of a person -- our own or someone else's acts. We have the right and duty to do that kind of judging.
We know the Ten Commandments and additional information about the morality of human actions. [Many actions that are not directly be forbidden by the Commandments are legitimately forbidden by the state (e.g., speeding) or by the Church (e.g., breaking the Communion fast).] Thus, when a person does something that we observe, it is only natural to respond to that action by noting mentally that the action is either morally right or wrong or morally neutral. If we make a "mental note" that an observed action was morally wrong, that note sometimes then has to be expressed in spoken or written word. When we do this, we are legitimately "judg[ing]" the action, without judging the moral condition of the soul of the person who acted.
Anyone who seriously tries to claim that we are forbidden even to judge a person's actions is asking for anarchy. That kind of person is the worst kind of "moral relativist" (one who believes that, for each person, there is a different morality). That kind of person would logically have to call for the abolition of all law and the court system.
God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 11, 2003.
Good morning John.In some cases it is difficult to judge the actions without judging the person. As this thread has demostrated, everyone is judging the man because they do not approve of his actions, which in this case is his music.
When Mick says "There's no doubt about it. MARILYN MANSON is one of the most evil human beings alive on this earth today." I think we all could think of few others based on their actions alone, but MM is the only man mentioned here. No action is mentioned, only the man. Is he not juding the man, not his actions? He then goes on to say "He is evil evil evil and you should not listen to his music or permit your children to listen to it or anything like it." So Mick is saying because MM is an evil person, one should not listen to his evil music.
It appears that just because these people do not like his music they are calling him evil. Just like if you don't agree with the act of homosexuality, does not give you the right to call a homosexual evil. You yourself said you don't know whats in their heart. So if you don't know what's in a person heart, how can you call him evil? You are all judging him by his music and by his stageshows. Just like when you goto the opera, they put on a show. I don't particularly like the opera, but I'm not going to call the actors evil or the poeple who do enjoy the opera evil.
You say "We have the right and duty to do that kind of judging (judging someones acts)." Isn't that along the same lines as "let whomever has done no wrong through the first stone?" It doesnt matter what that wrong is, but just that you disagree with the act makes you an all knowing judge. Ganted I don't know everything about MM, nor do I want to, but we must believe in Gods plan. He knows all and He will judge all. Have you ever see the little cartoon that say "I know I'm somebody cause God don't make no junk". Well it is definately needed here, God doesn't make mistakes and whatever God has planned for MM, it is not up to us to condemn it.
You say "Anyone who seriously tries to claim that we are forbidden even to judge a person's actions is asking for anarchy." So you are judging his actions (his music), and say you do not like it. You all are condemning the man by calling him evil, all because you do not like his music? That is what I disagree with. Just because you don't like the mans music, or some other things he has done, in no way justifies you calling the man evil. We all must walk in our own shoes, do not judge another man unless you've walked a mile in his shoes. And so what if the way MM chooses to live his life disagrees with the way you think he should! We all must fall at some point or another so that we can give it to God and ask for His help and guidence. None of Gods creatures are perfect. That's His plan!
Peace & Love
-- Choas (Choas@nomail.com), May 12, 2003.
Marilyn Mansons' music, in and of itself - lyrics aside - isn't worth the good/wrong lyric battle. His music is uncreative, mostly yelling, just all around yuck-o. And yes, I am a fan of contemporary music, and by that I *do not* mean pop music.
-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 12, 2003.
I agree with O.D.,Marylin Manson would have to do something much bigger to be considered evil, right now I'd lump him in with "personalities" trying to be distinctive and earn a living. Heck even his stage name should show that!
Frank
P.S. Now CHARLIE Manson on the other hand, might have a shot at being called "evil"...
-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 12, 2003.
Not to mention Hitler, Stalin, Diane Feinstein and Ted Kennedy 8-D))Frank
-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 12, 2003.
While I agree with you Frank, mostly, he still has a big influence on the youth, who *choose* to listen to his music.
Aside from that, what I meant was his music isn't even good enough that someone should want to listen to it despite the bad lyrics. The music has no redeeming qualities about it.
-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 12, 2003.
You said: "You yourself said you don't know whats in their heart."Think about it Choas, people emulate in their actions what it is that is in their hearts. If no evil were in his heart, he would emulate nothing but good. But that is not the case in his dress, his shows, his music and the lyrics. All something to be stayed away from. Because it has been a proven fact that after something has been pounded into someone's head over and over again, that they can start to believe in it. So if the lyrics say what is less than desirable, should we not stay away from it to be on the safe side?
You said: "but we must believe in Gods plan."
Can you honestly sit here and say that it is God's "plan" for people to behave in such a matter? God's plan is that all people go to heaven, but we know that does not happen, far from it, because he gave us free will. So, sometimes the will of man overrides the plan of God.
You quoted a cartoon as saying: "I know I'm somebody cause God don't make no junk".
Well, that's just silly. That's like saying that every human being is good because God made them. That's like saying all the angels are good because God made them. And we know that not to be the truth. Lucifer and his followers fell, and there have been many evil men to walk the face of this earth. God's creation is good, but all of us have the effects of original sin, and if one does not fight to overcome those effects, then they are easily led by Satan.
-- No name (nospam@thankyou.com), May 12, 2003.
Jmj
Hello, Choas.You have posted a long and emotional criticism of my last message. It has lots of mistakes in it. But rather than go through it and correct you one sentence at a time, I would ask you please to read the following ...
Immediately before my last message to you, you posted a very short message. Here is what you wrote:
"Jesus tells us to Love one another as He loves us. He also tells us not to judge. Peace & Love -- Choas (Choas@nomail.com), May 09, 2003."Notice that you did not mention any names there. I could not tell who had done any "judging" (in your opinion), nor even who had been judged. I was just reading your message as a "stand-alone" comment. What you need to realize is that my subsequent message -- the one you have roundly criticized -- was nothing more than a general series of comments on your brief statement about "judging."
My words were not written to justify (or to condemn) any alleged judging of Mr. "Manson" Warner that may have occurred on this thread. When I was writing, I wasn't even aware of any judgmental comments that others had made in earlier messages. (I didn't scroll up to see if anyone had judged anyone else unjustly.) My comments were all general, and every one of them is valid.
I certainly would not judge Michael "MM" Warner mildly or harshly, because I know nothing about him. I know nothing about his life. I have never heard anything he has recorded. I don't even have any idea what he looks like. [In an earlier post, I suggested that we pray for the intercession of his patron saint (Michael), only because I assumed that previous posters knew that Mr. Warner was in spiritual danger.]
I suggest that you now scroll back up and re-read my message, in light of these facts. If you still think that I deserved the comments you made in return, let me know, and I will go through your message, showing you each part that is wrong.
Before you decide what to tell me, though, please slowly read through your response to me. As you do so, ask yourself whether or not YOU -- ironically -- began judging me (or other posters on this thread). Ask yourself whether or not you at least were doing the very thing that I say it is OK to do -- judging the actions of others as morally good, evil, or neutral. [Hint: Yes, you did judge peoples' actions. Do you see the irony? If judging is not permitted -- as you say -- then you are not allowed to judge and criticize what others said on this thread. My point is that the judging of actions IS permissible and even necessary. I hope that you will now realize this and admit it.]
God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 12, 2003.
"The music has no redeeming qualities about it."Hi OD. "Good" music is a rather subjective truth Id have thought! WHile its not my cup of tea either I dont think you can call it completely without value!
As for pop music make your way to ilxor.com and go to the "I love music" link. They love pop music and could give most critics of pop a good run for their money, they are in the main either musicans or music journos so be wary! A very entertaining forum if you love music.
As for Opera, my first and last experience was in the Vienna Opera theatre. Painful, doesnt begin to describe this experience. Luckily I fell asleep half way through. I am not sure if I have a soul if Opera is the window to it...
-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 12, 2003.
Kiwi,You know, opera isn't really my cup of tea either, but I must say I'm *very* impressed with opera singers as professionals. As part of a charity thing I was at the Ravinia festival in Chicago (which is in a big open-air Hollywood-Bowl-like place, and these ladies and men could project their voices to the top of the bowl with power and clarity! I'd like to see any rock-star vocalist match them for that.
But then, having someone belting out German or Italian at one must be an acquired taste...
Frank
-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 13, 2003.
Hi Frank and Chris without wanting to sound overly sentimental or emotional as I can sometimes do its really lovely to see you both back and in better health.Frank I just dont connect with opera. My intial feeling when I hear Opera is wow, thats intense and Im blown away by the voice as well but it becomes monotonous after 5mins, really hard work.. overdrawn, overblown, over dramatic and tireseome to these ears . Although the big fat guy and that blind guy are bearable in small doses. I can handle the deep stuff its the high notes that make me want to kill myself.
People talk abot the passion and soul etc but to me its so manufactured, so rehearsed, so not from the heart. Its trying so hard to make you feel a certain way that it lacks the real viseral quality that comes through the raw energy, innocence and naievity of youth and rock. To me music is not all about reaching perfection in delivery.
Bt I wont reccommend the best testosterone laden music to anyone here, well actually John and Eugene still have a bit of a spring in their step they might be takers! For those who delight in quieter sounds of muisc- sadness, loss and reflective stuff you could do much much worse than but "You are free" by Cat Power. Silly name... heartachingly beautiful music....
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll? p=amg&uid=CASS805130743&sql=Arj9fs35wa3ng
or I wrote a review last year on a similar type of albulm music wise on this forum. Lambchop were in Auckland last moth so it was very nice for me to finally see them live.
The albulm was Nixon- Lambchop
Another silly name but great music.
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00950U
Yikes I really need to get a life and stop offloading all this nonsense with you guys, as if you care! Its getting a bit disturbing the amount of time Im online. My home away from home... the catholic forum!
Oh dear whats happened to me... hardly the platform for a rock and roll insurrectiom. In my mind,driving in the car stereo blarring, I AM Eddie Vedder.
see you
-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 13, 2003.
in the unlikely event people do want to check cat powers latest albulm out ill try the address againhttp://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll? p=amg&uid=8:48:11|AM&sql=A9ktvad3kq8w4
if not go to allmusic.com type in cat power, its great!
-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 13, 2003.
Thanks kiwi. I love Cat Power. :D
-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 13, 2003.
or just listen to Joan Sutherland sing anything... the emotion she emits (through ornaments and such) is just incredible...
-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 14, 2003.
Jmj
I realize that what I am about to say will be extremely unpopular -- possibly even making me a "minority of one." But that has never stopped me before! This is a matter of opinion, not fact, so I cannot be "wrong." {_8^D)I disagree with the following comment, made above -- specifically with the words I have put in bold type:
In opera, the contract is that singing is part of the universe in which the characters live. Once the contract is established, and done well, artificiality is not present.I have encountered fewer things, in over 50 years on this planet that are more "artificial" than "operatic singing." Before I expand on that, I hurry to say that I LOVE opera "music." I was introduced to it in the cradle in the early 1950s, because my Dad brought back a love of opera from his time in Italy during World War II (when he even went to La Scala). So I think that some of the greatest instrumental music ever written by man includes the operatic compositions of Puccini, R. Strauss, Weber, Bizet, Rossini, Verdi, and Gounod (with a "gold medal" to Wagner).
But I almost cannot bear to listen to those beautiful instrumental strains serving as accompaniment to operatic voices. Why, because "artificiality IS present" in those voices -- to the "nth degree." Each person, left to his/her own devices (i.e., if never exposed to recorded or live opera), would never sing as people do in the opera. That kind of warbling is so unnatural, so abnormal, so full of affectation. I guess that I just have never had any stomach for things that smack of phoniness and of performing in a strange way that calls attention to oneself. That's why I hate the sound of all that heavy vibrato, all those laryngeal gymnastics, all those notes that are almost too high- or low-pitched to be human, etc.. Really -- with no disrespect intended toward the Collegian -- I find opera singing as bizarre an abuse of the human vocal cords (and my ears) as the most extreme sideshow contortions are an abuse of the human physique (and my eyes).
Since this is a Catholic forum, where we should bring Catholicism into the discussion, I'll say this:
I love singing! I have sung in a boys' choir, in a men's choir, and as part of thousands of church congregations. Thank heaven that, in none of these choirs or congregations, was I ever disturbed by the sound of operatic singing around me. Everyone sang just the way God gave them to sing, with smooth, normal, natural voices -- the same kind of truly human singing we hear in 99% of all recorded 20th-century popular music.Just to see what it would be like, I'd love to hear the opera music that I love being performed to accompany people who would just do some good old-fashioned normal singing. It'll never happen, but at least I can dream ...
God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 15, 2003.
"Since this is a Catholic forum, where we should bring Catholicism into the discussion"Yes true! I did get a little off topic. Looking through the new questions isnt it great to see new forumites arriving old forumites returning and real issues and questions about the church being debated and disscussed (without the schismatics disrupting and destroying everthing) I do miss Emerald, though I think he will return.
Chris I found your comments very interesting indeed thankyou very much. I posted them on a msuic forum. I hope you dont mind the thread is here if youre interested, it got a good positive response in the main. http://ilx.wh3rd.net/thread.php?msgid=3548279
OD re cat power, all is forgiven then ;-).
Blessings
-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 16, 2003.
Just give me some Buddy Holly and the Crickets and I'll be happy, or some real street corner 1950's Doo Wop.Has there ever been a Doo Wop Mass? Maybe Dion DiMucci can put one together. He is a devout Catholic after all. There are alot of gospel strains in that goog old a capella sound.
Karl
-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 16, 2003.
*good*Karl
-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 16, 2003.
I have a younger sister who is frozen in time. Her first love was and still is Mexican mariachi music. I like that; and still love Mexican boleros.But, the spirit is thirsty for what's progressively finer & finer, FINEST! I believe. If we go on to more challenging music, we arrive at some indisputible treasures. I mean opera & orchestral classical music. ''Acquired tastes''--?
Sure, and all your souls can acquire the taste, if they aren't ''frozen'' in some permanent taste. Like my Sis has.
I wonder what Kiwi or Frank or the others; would say; as Don Giovanni's opening overture sounds over an opera hall? And listening to Leporello; counting all his don's conquests, whole books-full? It's remarkable music.
Opera Diva; if we love Sutherland (and I do), Let me recommend a CD recording to you. It's called the Vivaldi Album, sung by Cecilia Bartoli; a mezzo. What she accomplishes with her voice is merely unbelievable. She must be a ''droid'' or a ''cyborg''; no other explanation. Nothing is impossible for her precision in singing! See if you can borrow a copy. You may choose never to return it to its owner! (Bad Girl! It's not yours. RETURN!)
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 16, 2003.
JmjWell, looky here! Gene, I do believe that you have just engaged in the kind of thing that you have so rightly decried on various occasions ...
Elitism!It comes through, loud and clear, in these words:
"the spirit is thirsty for what's progressively finer & finer, FINEST!"
[In other words, let's us aristocrats listen to something that separates us, "the wheat," from them, the pedestrian "chaff," who are "frozen in some 'permanent' taste," a much lower-class taste.]"If we go on to more challenging music, we arrive at some indisputible treasures. I mean opera ..."
Yeah, boy! We never come across any "indisputable treasures" in the world of popular music, jazz, hymns, etc.. Let's move on up to the "elite" kind of music!Yes, much opera music (i.e., the instrumental parts) can be wonderful, but two other things are true:
(1) most other kinds of music can be wonderful too, and
(2) some people have to cover their ears when the coloratura starts closing in.[Just teasing. You are more than entitled to your opinion!]
God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), May 16, 2003.
Please realise, John. I never said we must LEAVE BEHIND our accepted tastes. That would indicate a superior attitude. I play Al Jolson recordings, John! I LOVE Swannee; and Sonny Boy!Ella Fitzgerald died just a few years back. I went into virtual mourning. I am nuts about Italian cinematic musical scores. Have you listened to Nino Rota; composer of The Godfather, etc., -- I buy anything of his I can find. I have Jewish Klezmer in my collection, and lots of JAZZ!
Sure, all of them are beautiful; and OPERA is most beautiful! --Not for everybody, I know. FOR ME!
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 16, 2003.
OH! I left out Flamenco! --Ghastly stupid of me !!! That is truly fantastic music. Not only the traditional; also the New Flamenco-- Gypsy Kings, etc., They have to be amongst the most gifted musical interpreters in the world, those guitarists.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 16, 2003.
Thanks for the clarification, Gene.I am right there with you on "Italian cinematic musical scores" -- especially Nino Rota! I have heard too little of his music. I used to have a bound sheet-music book with the piano scores of all the themes he composed for "The Godfather." Hauntingly lovely!
My other favorite composers for cinema were the Hungarian, Miklos Rosza ["Parade of the Charioteers," etc., in "Ben Hur"] ... the Frenchman, Michel Legrand [wall-to-wall music in "Umbrellas of Cherbourg," "Windmills of Your Mind" in "Thomas Crown Affair," unforgettable "Summer of '42," etc.] ... and the American, Henry Mancini [too numerous to mention].
God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 16, 2003.
John-
I was (just the other day) having a conversation, with a bunch of singers, about ballet and how unnatural it was. I said "Come on guys, what we do isn't exactly natural either. People don't just walk down the street and sing like an opera singer."
*But*, I don't think that it's fine-tuned workings, make it fake. If we all stopped progressing our skill at right where God left us, we wouldn't have beautiful antique furniture, or mona lisas... Opera is the art of making the voice sound the best it can, by use of the instrument that God gave us... it's the same as a sport really. We spend years training our muscles to do what is needed to make the best sound they can make.... which turns out to be opera :)
I'm glad all is forgiven Kiwi. *whew*
Eugene, I have heard Cecila a couple times and I love the way she sounds, I will look into that album!
I *love* Flamenco! Have you ever seen it danced. It is amazing....
-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 17, 2003.
Jmj
Hello, Collegian.I'm glad that you don't seem upset at my criticism of operatic singing, because I'm going to keep it up in this message too. {_8^D)
You wrote (of operatic singing): "I don't think that it's fine-tuned workings make it fake."
You are making the mistake of approaching these things as "matters of fact," wherein I am wrong and you are right (or vice versa). As I tried to emphasize earlier, they are actually matters of opinion, wherein neither of us can be "wrong." So, in response to that first quoted sentence ...
is "fake," artificial, abnormal. I can briefly produce the operatic sound, but only through artifice. It is not the human voice God gave us, but something unnatural. That's why I wrote earlier: "I find opera singing as bizarre an abuse of the human vocal cords (and my ears) as the most extreme sideshow contortions are an abuse of the human physique (and my eyes)." You continued: "If we all stopped progressing our skill at right where God left us, we wouldn't have beautiful antique furniture, or mona lisas...
I agree with the principle you've stated, but making the voice sound abnormal is not an example of "progressing our skill."
"Opera is the art of making the voice sound the best it can, by use of the instrument that God gave us... it's the same as a sport really."
I disagree. What you have said can't be true, since the sound of operatic singing is horrendous to me. That is not "making the voice sound the best it can," but almost the worst it can, in my opinion.
The "same as a sport"? No, unless you mean something like a Mark McGwire taking an unnatural supplement for strength to hit with power -- "making [the biceps] the best [they] can" be. [That analogy limps, but it gets part of the idea across -- the unnaturalness.] The better comparison is to a contortionist who "abuses" his/her body, not to a true athlete who "uses" it naturally."We spend years training our muscles to do what is needed to make the best sound they can make.... which turns out to be opera :)"
It's not "the best sound" (as though that were something objective), but rather a sound that you like "best."
It's very nearly the sound I like least. [But that doesn't mean I like operatic singers any less as human beings. (They're just misguided!)]God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 17, 2003.
[Sorry. Due to bad HTML, one of my sentences got clipped. Here is the whole thing ...]
So, in response to that first quoted sentence ...
My opinion is that it is "fake," artificial, abnormal.
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 17, 2003.
Oh, shucks, John--
Html is the least of your mistakes. The trained classical singer is not employing anything but his/her natural voice. It's entirely natural and extremely euphonious, if a singer has real talent.You suffer the same lack of appreciation Jiggs did in the Sunday comics; (''Maggie & Jiggs --Bringing Up Father''). He hated opera, and Maggie forced him to take her. She didn't go for the music; she was just a social climber. Haha!
The best voices make the best opera; and they are indeed produced naturally, not by artifice. The singer employs the chest and diaphram, not the nasal and head sounds. You have no resaon to call it artificial; it's HUMAN. The training that raises this voice to an artistic medium is all natural; and it serves the composers' purpose; which is the dramatic unfolding of a theme or a story.
Prejudice against the medium is simply unjustified. It would be akin to a prejudice against verse or poetry. Love for music is at the bottom of it all. A microphone is artificial; not the operatic voice. --Thanks for your patience; I sincerely hope this explanation is worthwhile for you. You're missing out on one of the world's most enduring and joyful treasures-- Opera.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 17, 2003.
"You are making the mistake of approaching these things as "matters of fact," wherein I am wrong and you are right (or vice versa)."
I put "I think" in there so as to let you know it is my opinion. Not a fact. Well, okay, I do think it is a little a fact... but mostly my opinion
Hmmm. Nope I don't mean like people taking steriods. I don't take anything to sing, save maybe some green tea and water. I use no mic, no drugs, nothing. Just muscles, that God gave me, that are built up (by exercize) so as to support the amount of air I can move as quickly as I can move it. There is nothing artifical, except that only trained people can do it (well), just the same as sports.
"The best voices make the best opera; and they are indeed produced naturally, not by artifice. The singer employs the chest and diaphram, not the nasal and head sounds. You have no resaon to call it artificial; it's HUMAN. The training that raises this voice to an artistic medium is all natural; and it serves the composers' purpose; which is the dramatic unfolding of a theme or a story."
Ditto. Eugene certainly knows what he is talking about.
-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 17, 2003.
Verdi...Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves...ahhhhhhhhhhh
-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), May 17, 2003.
O-Diva,
You'd better be studying your Russian. Someday you'll sing Tatiana's letter scene; one of the sweetest soprano treats in the repertory. That one always melts my heart from start to finish!It's one role which when a great singer accomplishes it, will convert you to opera for life. Because you fall in love with the girl; like a helpless schoolboy! Ha!
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 17, 2003.
Oh Eugene ! I wish my school taught Russian. I really want to do some Rachmaninov peices. I suppose I shall just learn the diction on my own. :)
-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 17, 2003.
I can briefly produce the operatic sound, but only through artifice. It is not the human voice God gave us, but something unnatural.John,
Are you against painting? God didn't give us color sacs, but that doesn't make paintings not art, or to my mind drawing representations natural for us (even our ancestors drew on cave walls). If an opera singer *cut* part of themselves off to achieve their voice I could see your point, but trainging yourself to do something well is hardly unnatural! (BTW, you could use the same argument against many sports as being *unnatural* such as pole- vaulting... God surely didn't intend us to fling ourselves into the air on a bent stick! Or ice skating? Why, humans can't even LIVE in that cold weather without artificial protection, how could that be natural!
And let's not even get started on automobiles or eyeglasses...
Frank
-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 18, 2003.
Oh, lay off, Frank-- Lol!
John isn't so unusual; it's impossible to drive someone to love what he dislikes. I've met scores of fine people who can't warm up to opera. They hate either the languages or the posturing or the voices. It's very true all is an acquired taste. Good taste is acquired. Taste for the banal is a daily barrage on our senses, and it settles on you like a taste for junk food. I can't stand junk food, which possibly makes me a snob.I wonder what John thinks about the Vienna Boy's Choir; or Gregorian Chant, or organ recitals? They are all acquired tastes. Nothing good comes without us overcoming our resistance first. The biggest problem acquiring taste for opera is our society laughs at it; society is biased. Opera is so often trivialized. Not hip. Etc., Another strike against opera; it needs your complete attention. It forces you to be patient as the music plays. Today's fans are always in a big hurry. Short attention spans; and they look for instant gratification. Funniest of all is they appreciate amplification, but not much power of the vocal kind. Go figure.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 18, 2003.
Eugene,I'm not saying John has to *like* opera, I was just suprised he'd call it unnatural.
Frank
-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 18, 2003.
Ha!!! Only one who knows all about singing would presume, I know.I'll tell you what's unnatural. Four guys singing in a barbershop.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 18, 2003.
JmjGene, you really made me laugh!
Unlike the others, you grasped one of the two important points I tried to make, when you wrote: "it's impossible to drive someone to love what he dislikes."
But then, just like the others, you did your damnedest to try to convince me "to love what [I] dislike"!!!I stated, up front, that my comments were my opinion -- and may turn out to be "an opinion of one." But now I have three people denying my right to this opinion. People at discussion forums tend to have that malady, I've noticed! I call it the "I'm-right-and-everybody-had-better-admit-it Syndrome."
Although it will probably be fruitless, I'll respond to some of the things stated since my last message. If I can get just one idea across to just one person, it will have been worth the trouble ...
QUOTE: The trained classical singer is not employing anything but his/her natural voice. It's entirely natural and extremely euphonious, if a singer has real talent.
RESPONSE: This statement is improperly expressed as a fact, when it is a mere opinion. (Kindly adjust your vocabulary.) As a singer and musician myself, I consider the action and the sound of operatic singing to be UNnatural (not "natural") and CACOphonous (not "euphonious").QUOTE: You suffer the same lack of appreciation Jiggs did in the Sunday comics; ("Maggie & Jiggs --Bringing Up Father").
COMMENT: Again, this is an opinion stated as though it were a fact! I don't "suffer" from anything. I don't "lack" anything. I simply have a well-founded opinion that differs from yours. [I do remember "Bringing Up Father," which I used to read. I assure you that Jiggs's opinion of opera had no affect on me!]QUOTE: The best voices make the best opera; and they are indeed produced naturally, not by artifice.
COMMENT: Again, opinion stated as though it were fact! My opinion is that the "best voices" are singing things other than opera.QUOTE: Prejudice against the medium is simply unjustified. It would be akin to a prejudice against verse or poetry. COMMENT: Actually, I don't have PREjudices. I have POSTjudices. In other words, I give everything a chance, and then I make a judgment (postjudice). How could it even occur to you, after all I have said (e.g., hearing opera from the cradle), to accuse me of "prejudice"? You would stoop so low to label me with such a horrible word, simply because I disagree with your taste? Tsk, tsk. I have simply expressed my opinion -- not to convert anyone to agree with me, but to let people know that there is not just one opinion on this subject.
QUOTE: You're missing out on one of the world's most enduring and joyful treasures-- Opera.
COMMENT: I simply can't understand how a person could even think of writing this, when I have so clearly stated that I have listened to opera. I have not "miss[ed] out" on it. I love the instrumental music, but hate the sound of the singing. (That's why I enjoy overtures so much.)QUOTE: "I put 'I think' in there so as to let you know it is my opinion. Not a fact. Well, okay, I do think it is a little a fact... but mostly my opinion."
COMMENT: You're right. [You wrote, "I don't think [etc.]."] I beg your pardon.QUOTE: Just muscles, that God gave me, that are built up (by exercize) so as to support the amount of air I can move as quickly as I can move it. There is nothing artifical, except that only trained people can do it (well), just the same as sports."
COMMENT: But it's not "the same as sports." Watching someone pitch a strikeout or hit a home run can be boring to one person or beautiful to another. But those baseball feats cannot be physically or mentally offensive to the witness. By contrast, the sound of operatic singing is neither "boring" nor "beautiful" to me, but rather offensive. The sound actually makes me physically distressed, because it is so unnatural. I shudder -- and then change the channel ASAP!QUOTE: Eugene certainly knows what he is talking about.
COMMENT: Uh-oh! This comment about Eugene was made about one of his "statements of fact" (that should have been expressed as an opinion). By complimenting him, you joined in his mistake.QUOTE: It's very true all is an acquired taste. Good taste is acquired.
COMMENT: I don't agree. This is an excuse that some people (mainly the haughty) use to justify their favorable opinion for various things. If something is objectively "good," the taste for it is natural (God-given), not "acquired."QUOTE: I can't stand junk food, which possibly makes me a snob.
COMMENT: Your honesty is refreshing. In some areas of life, you definitely need to battle your elitism.QUOTE: I wonder what John thinks about the Vienna Boy's Choir; or Gregorian Chant, or organ recitals? COMMENT: I wonder what prompted this question?
--- I used to sing in a boys' choir, and I now support one financially. I love boys' choirs. The boys sing naturally, not in operatic style.
--- I used to sing various forms of religious and sacred music, including Gregorian Chant. I like some chants a lot, but dislike others a lot. I'm grateful that monks chanting Gregorian do not use "operatic singing."
--- I love to listen to organ music. I served as a church organist for more than a decade. Though I have never given recitals, I have nothing against them.QUOTE: Nothing good comes without us overcoming our resistance first.
COMMENT: I don't have a "resistance." Instead, I literally hate the sound of operatic singing. A deep aversion toward specific nauseating sounds is not a "resistance."QUOTE: The biggest problem acquiring taste for opera is our society laughs at it; society is biased. Opera is so often trivialized. Not hip. Etc., Another strike against opera; it needs your complete attention. It forces you to be patient as the music plays. Today's fans are always in a big hurry. Short attention spans; and they look for instant gratification.
COMMENT: These words are another example of elitism. They hint that only the best kind of people can "acquir[e a] taste" for something so wonderful as opera. I also think that these comments misjudge society's reaction. Love for opera today is not broader than it is for various reasons -- e.g., people join me in hating the sound of the singing ... or people dislike the sound of classical, orchestral music ... or people want to hear their own language spoken/sung ... or people can't afford the high expense of attending (attire, tickets, etc.) which make the whole thing seem elitist (not for the common man).God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 18, 2003.
Oh My Gosh;
John's opera threshhold is a veritable Wall of China. My own is so low, how can it be elitist?I'm happy if you're happy, John. No offense intended. And, I feel for you. Your aversion toward specific nauseating sounds is a predisposition to chew your music. Some are born with the sense to savor it as we do champagne, not cut with knives & forks. I'm never nauseated at an opera, not because it's specifically anything; but because I have a strong stomach. You, having for patron Saint John the Baptist, are strangely delicate in the stomach. Don't you like wild locusts? I, as a patrician (elite) son of Saint Cecilia, have inherited my love for true music (taste is acquired, love is natural) as this patron's heritage. Very easy to digest! Love the wit and congeniality. You are still an excellent shipmate, John. God love you and pass the honeycombs.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 18, 2003.
As Beverly Sills so aptly put it. "Singing opera, is just controlled screaming".
-- Paversomethingorother (Mr.lungs@theMet.com), May 18, 2003.
I give up, not because I am defeated, but because there are some people who will walk thier whole lives with blinders on; and one can lead a horse to water, but if he chooses to die of thirst, it is his own damn fault.
I in no way mean that those things that I have expressed as opnion are right, no they are just opinion. But opera is not some ugly thing just because Sr. John, of the unenlightened, chooses to think so.
Yes, it's a touchy subject.
-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 18, 2003.
Well I'm on your side, OD, and I can't understand John either. It's hardly worth worrying about. Some folks react negatively to Shakespeare. I love Shakespeare and I love Scwarzenegger flicks. Opposite ends of the spectrum. Some are glued to a part of the spectrum forever. If I say that's beautiful, BLUE; somebody will tell me Red is better. Or Blue is nauseating. Now and then I'll try to inform them why Blue is good; and to be completely fair, humor their passion for Red. My dear Sis has osteoporosis -- So, I offer advice: take calcium tablets. Her answer is: ''Can't! They make me dizzy-- I almost pass out!'' --Haha!
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 18, 2003.
Wow. I was harsh. Sorry, that is my humor, I don't mean it meanly... lol.
-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 18, 2003.
Huh! Youve gotta love it! The Chavez and Gecik show, take a seat and sit back... worth the price of admission alone. For an encore see "Tattoo's - where should a Catholic stand," a side splitting commentary from the old boy. No one escapes without a few scrapes, least of all poor Janis Joplin RIP. I think someone slippped a little tequila into his evening night cap, ohhh the tears.... this hurts... I neeed a glass of water.
-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 19, 2003.
Price? You owe us money, Kiwi? Pay John.He got the more abrasive scrapes in; cacophonous, nauseating, abnormal, Haha. I only called the spade a spade. Poor Joplin, my eye. Kids like her corrupted a whole generation.
I like Irish whiskey, not tequila. Seems I will never escape your racial baiting even after all this time, --? No, we weren't giving a show; just railing about likes & dislikes. Glad you're amused. Now go over to Sydney Opera, pay a price for admission there. Worth every penny. You get me for free.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 19, 2003.
Gene, I think that I deserve an extra dollar for "laryngeal gymnastics," don't you (even if it would be a New Zealand dollar)?Collegian, no offense taken. Give yourself a thrill with a trill. (;p)
JFG
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 19, 2003.
I love how you call me Collegian, like it's less impersonal than Opera.
HA! you won't call me OperaDiva, 'cause you don't like opera. (puzzle pieces are now falling into place ;) )
-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 19, 2003.
ha the most delightfully un pc man I know cries foul when a few light hearted cultural references (racist barbs?????) are directed his way.Its not amusing to you though clearly fair enough brother Gene. it reinforces bad sterotypes, its demeaning, its culturally insenstive yeah yeah ok. Id hand you a tissue Gene but im all out. try the minorities commision.
Ciao
-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 19, 2003.
You have me wrong, Bro Kiwi--I'm not crying; I'm a good sport. Hey, I'm not asking anyone to grant me a PC pass. Just marvel at the way you select the bon mottes; ''tequila'' or any other Mex stereotype. It's just that I have unusual tastes. How many beaners like Tullamore Dew, and Dame Kiri Te Kanawa, and travelling to England to see the Epsom Darby? That's Gino! But you'd never know it. You underestimate everybody in our country. That's what always happens to kids who are brought up on a remote island. It stunts them. Lol!
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 19, 2003.
Yay :) Let's all hear it for kind and christian people ;)
-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 19, 2003.
and by kind I meant charitable.
-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 19, 2003.
"Misunderestimate" americans...never. I always preferred tequila to whisky myself anyway. :-) Take care old fella.
-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 19, 2003.
God bless you Kiwi;
You may ask, during your evening prayers, Our Lord forgive those who play rough against you. I turn to Him myself and pray for you. It's what all good men do.Saint Thomas More; on his way to the axe, consoled the Marshall, who was downcast. ''Come now, Dear Friend. Don't let us be sad. Very soon we shall all gather together and make merry at Our Lord's table in heaven.'' That is nobility!
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 20, 2003.
I love how you call me Collegian, like it's less impersonal than Opera. HA! you won't call me OperaDiva, 'cause you don't like opera. (puzzle pieces are now falling into place ;) )Oh, how unjustly thou dost judge me!
Because "Collegian" is also not "personal" enough, I don't really want to call you "Collegian." But you forced me into picking a "label" when you refused to divulge your name and refused even to use a fake "given name" (as you will recall).
I couldn't call you "Opera Diva," partly because you are not an opera diva. (I can't help it if I am honest!) But I could reluctantly call you "Collegian," because you are one.
I couldn't buy the excuse that you are known as "diva" or "soprano" elsewhere on the Internet. After all, "two wrongs don't make a right." You can start using a saint's name here, and then go back to the other places and identify yourself with the saint's name too!It wasn't that I "don't like opera" (to use your words), since -- as I have repeatedly said -- I do like some aspects of opera (some of the stories and especially the beautiful music). I would watch every opera shown on PBS if it weren't for the singing.
I think that my action is rooted in being taught to care about who a person is, not what he/she does for a living.Well, let's see ... If I can't call you "Opera Diva," and if "Collegian" is too "impersonal," maybe I'll have to pick a saint's name for you. I'll think it over -- unless you want to change your mind and pick a saint's name for yourself. Hmmmm ... Muriel? ... Thomasina? ... Olive? ...
God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 20, 2003.
Dear Opera Diva,
I like what Verdi said to one of his colleagues. ''Don't read what the critics think of you, or your work. Your only concern should be the production of music, fine music as you deem it. As time goes by, you'll be able to say to them all: ''Imbeciles! You were wrong!''
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 20, 2003.
HA HA HA Eugene.
I prefer whisky myself.
And John darling, I was joking about the "you don't like opera thing." But I can't take a saints name following your logic. I am not that saint (as I am not a diva) so to take a saints name would be an even bigger lie!
:D
-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 20, 2003.
Collegian,
You don't take a saint's name because you are a saint, but because you need a role model to help you become one.
Accordingly, since you passed up another chance to name yourself, I think I'll call you by a name that Gene likes -- Cecilia (patron saint of musicians, singers, and one of my aunts [who sings in the normal way]).
JFG
PS: Gene, Verdi was talking to a composer of instrumental music. That is obvious from the words you quoted: "production of music, fine music." He couldn't have been talking to an operatic singer.
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), May 20, 2003.
"because you need a role model to help you become one. "
Which is exactly why I go by OperaDiva.
-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 20, 2003.
Izzat so? Your aunt sings, maybe. Who knows if it's normal? Opinions, remember? I might say she sings like a frog.Verdi was a master. I'll take his version of fine music over most living human beings'. Why?
I've listened to it, and its interpreters. Not only did they sound ''normal''; but they sounded glorious. I mean - - they don't die, or go out of style. These works for the voice will be glorious many hundreds of years from today.
One day the songs of your own ''normal'' singers will be nostalgic; for the Lawrence Welk and Geritol set. Verdi, Rossini, Mozart and Tchaikovsky all will live a thousand more years. That may be abnormal to some; to me it's art.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 20, 2003.
Yay! :)
-- OperaDivaCecilia (solosoprano@juno.com), May 20, 2003.
all right, you people arent even informed on what you're talking about. marilyn manson's real name is not michael, but brian warner. i'm sort of a superfan, self-named mansonite, and i listen to his music almost exclusively. i don't dress in all black. i dont worship the devil (neither am i christian or catholic or whatever). i have friends, i work for a living, i dont torture cats and dogs, and i pay my bills like every other adult functioning in society. his lyrics don't depress me, but actually inspire me in my own poetry and writings. "a pill to make you numb, a pill to make you dumb, a pill to make you anybody else but all the drugs in this world won't save her from herself." personally, i see that as incredibly positive... showing listeners that escaping into a world of drugs will not work no matter what. i have a history of drug use and depression and can absolutely relate to a lot of what the band says, which means that marilyn manson has a good influence on me. yes, he is definitely anti-christianity but only because of his own upbringing... do those of you who deem him 'evil' bother to actually listen to his lyrics or read his book? or do you just look at him on the cover of rolling stone or circus magazine and decide that he "looks" like a tool of satan? i really don't have any patience for intolerance or ignorance, and what i see here is a lot of both. and i am not a high school misfit defending my "rock god," although i have been there. i would have said the same if any band i listened to was being attacked... the beatles, pink floyd, anything. the reason you got such a heated response out of me is because marilyn manson happens to be my favorite band. i suggest those of you who don't know what you're talking about either do research, or remain ignorant and shut up. thank you for your time.
-- michelle (freakonature61@hotmail.com), September 24, 2003.
No-one said that Manson didn't have some positive qualities. So did Hitler. But someone who is anti-God, and uses the public media to broadcast that position, is ultimately of no real value to anyone. Any temporal, transient benefits which might be derived from such a person are ultimately worthless, if the price one pays for experiencing such benefits is rejection of God, and the loss of one's immortal soul.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), September 24, 2003.
About MARILYN MANSON , you have to admit , he's is a good entertainer !! __ As I said before , I like his music !! __ Read my reply from May 16, 2002 !!
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.
About MARILYN MANSON , you have to admit , he's is a good entertainer !! __ As I said before , I like his music !! __ Read my reply from May 16, 2002 !!Greets from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.
No, Larry, I don't "have to admit" it. No one like that could ever "entertain" me.
Suggestion: Avoid evil, or pay the price later.
JFG
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 24, 2003.
No, Larry, I don't "have to admit" it. No one like that could ever "entertain" me. Suggestion: Avoid evil, or pay the price later. JFGIf you don't like MM , that's absolutely your good right !!
Like I said before , I do play metal , does that means I'm evil ??
Avoid person who play metal , because , it's just evil ??
What if your kids wants to listen or play metal ??
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.
Larry, where did I say anything about "metal"?
Nowhere. And so, you shouldn't have brought it up!The reason I have nothing to say about "metal" (by which I assume you mean "heavy metal rock music") is that I don't know enough about the subject to make a valid comment. In other words, I assume that there is a "spectrum" of "metal" music, a wider spectrum than the limited stuff to which I've had exposure.
I don't know if some part of that wider spectrum would be something of which I could approve.
I don't know if I would end up disapproving of all of it.
But I do know that I don't have the time or inclination to find out. Some other orthodox Catholic has the vocation of evaluating "metal" -- not me!God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 24, 2003.
No one can (or should) argue about taste - for music, hobbies, color, food, etc.Some people prefer blue to green, others prefer sunsets over dawns...
Some people prefer waltzes, others polka. Jazz appeals to some and R&B to others...taste is subjective and as far as it goes with feelings, is harmless.
Taste and feelings are not something anyone can argue about. You like Rock or Metal over Country? So what? it's not the melody and harmony that matters...it's the lyrics.
What we can argue or discuss about is ideas.
So if Manson wants to wear black and paint his face... so what? But the moment his lyrics slam Christianity - or anything else - on an intellectual/moral level as "bad"...that's when we can respond because that's when he is crossing the line from taste and opinion to public discourse and judgments.
If he sang "my parents abused me, I don't know why, it makes me feel depressed and I always cried...they called themselves Christian but it was clear to me... that they were clueless and so's me" no one would complain. After all, that's his personal experience and feelings.
It's when he goes from the subjective, personal experience of a handful of "christians" to sweeping generalizations and sweeping ontological condemnations "Christianity per se is bad, all Christians are hypocrites and thus, bad" - begging alot of questions about how well he appreciates the issues involved - that he opens himself to appropriate rebuke.
It's like saying: "since Kobe raped the girl, ALL NBA stars are rapists...." Just because Mason's parents were not good examples doesn't make Christianity (or any religion) automatically bad.
How many Christian songs or writers do you see going out of their way to slam pagans? Or make fun of pagans? Or INTENTIONALLY try to bait and annoy them, market their band and persona intentionally is ways calculated to offend their deepest held beliefs?
That's not just a matter of taste - not a matter of wearing black rather than white or face paint rather than nothing. That's a matter of calculated attempt to denigrate others.
So I'm glad some of his lyrics help you over come drug addiction and depression. That's great. Health and optimism are good things. But he could have done that song and others besides without going out of his way to antagonize 2 billion Christians couldn't he have?
You can have Metal without anti-Christian lyrics and anti-Christian marketting...so why not go that morally neutral route?
-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), September 24, 2003.
To all the haters i just want you to know why is it you come to his site and say all these rumors about him?... Does it make you feel more special? Hmm i dont know but it really isn't mature. Anyways... I know more than most people do about Marilyn Manson(Brian Warner) His mothers name is Barb Warner and his dads is Hugh Warner. Hugh is also Mansons middle name. He was born January 5, 1969... He currently has 6 CD's out(Which by the way rules in every way shape or form) I dont care what anyone says about him, because i love him and thats all that matters. People are always going to hate but Manson keep living on... I think the guy he so what assaulted is a shmuck, why would he sue him a year later? Hello people for the money!... People are like that now days. As for Manson being fake... I just think he does it because its part of his own artistic sense and his anger, he lets it all out... I mean he had a very hard childhood, exspecially with all the teasing when he was just 6 years old i know how that feels too, and that will never go away. Well you are either with Manson or againest him, I dont judge no one and niether does he... So dont judge someone you fully dont know. As far as him worshipping satan... Ummm, HELLO! he went to a Christian church when he was a kid, He dont believe in Satan nor Jesus, he is Atheist... Which is what i am. So you believe what you want i believe what i want, if you hate me just know that i dont hate you only because theres no point in it what so ever.............. Feel free to email me...
-- Tiffany Kerns (Living_D3ad_Girl15@hotmail.com), November 07, 2003.
You make a good spokesperson for athiests.Seriously.
-- jake (j@k.e), November 07, 2003.
I will not judge anyone. However, will just speak about the nature of music. Music can just start from mere physical sounds (or words), emotional, and to a spiritual.Physical effect: Music has various effects like increasing or reducing your blood pressure (esp. drum beats), your pulse, stimulating or sedating your senses/mind/nerves, your sleep, even many process of the body may be made harmonious or in disarray depending upon the type of music. Loud music, esp. hard rock, etc. seen to be more damage directly (like deafness) and indirectly (effects on other body processes).
Emotional effect: Music effects emotions. Good music like classical music may not very stimulating, but have a harmonious effect on your feelings, like soothing your mind, soothing your bad tempers, feelings of love or tenderness, induce peaceful sleep or even healing of certain kinds diseases. Bad music may cause or exacerbate anger, hatred, intense sadness, rejection, self-pity, restlessness, etc.
Spiritual effect: Good music either lifts your minds on high to God or just bow and worship Him. Bad or demon-assisted spiritual music goes along well with sexual immorality, alcoholism, drugs, violence, rebelliousness, revenge, lawlessness, curse, perversion as evidenced by the rock shows, etc.
Since, I am in a hurry. That's all for now.
-- leslie john (leslie_jn@yahoo.com), November 08, 2003.
Bad or demon-assisted spiritual musicSuch as ??
Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 12, 2003.
Look Dominic, You have some serious issues if you take any of Mansons music literally. He is just an artist trying to make a living by creating controversy in the world by singing about all the stuff he sings about e.g..Suicide, abortion, death and drugs. Manson is a great, intellegent guy who could get big doing anything because he has a raw talent that he puts into his music. It's good that you once listened to him, but just because he had an impact on you 'spiritually', don't diss him or his music. - Liss
-- Gothic Princess Liss (skinny_goth_lives@hotmail.com), January 25, 2004.
There's no doubt about it. MARILYN MANSON is one of the most evil human beings alive on this earth today. To think of all the lives this evil devil worshiper has influenced scares me. This hideous creature and monsters like him are becoming the roll models for our young people. They don't want to know anything about the Virgin Mary or St. Vincent De Paul, they’re more interested in what these devil monster musicians are doing. I watched a documentary on Marilyn Manson and he stated that he would like to be the individual to cause the fall of Christianity. He also burns huge crosses during his concerts as part of his show and he looks more like a demon than a human. He is evil evil evil and you should not listen to his music or permit your children to listen to it or anything like it.-- Mick (mcbailey@citynet.net), May 08, 2003.
Oh boy , it's just a show he's bringing up , yeah right , that makes it bad , you are really prejudiced !! __ What gives you the right to forbid peoples to listen to their music ??
i wrote before: In the 50s' , Rock'n Roll was evil , in some places they destroyed records , pictures , radio didn't turn these kind of records , well , they were wrong !!
May I ask you , what would you do if you caught your kids (at home or at friends or when they may going out) listen to MM or even death metal or grindcore ?? __ I play noise-grind-psycho-metal since 1987 , and I listen to metal/hard rock , for +/- 25 years , but also folk , flamenco , some blues , rock'n roll , disco .... , that of course , makes a person evil , bad to the bone ?? __ What are your thoughts about Evanescence ??
Peoples which kill in the name of their religion , that's EVIL , such vomitheads are stupid self-centered morons !!
But as I also said before: Some peoples always looking for or has something to complain (they just don't like it for no good reason) , so , they try to break it off , why ?? __ Or even try to get rid off it ?? __ And they call theirself open-minded ??
Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 25, 2004.
I think that If you guy has been damaged by MM music, so why don't you threw those CDS away. You have chances to listen to him or not. You chose him to listen everyday yourself, but now you feel damaged and you complain?!!. think about it, did you treat him fairly, did he force you to listen to his music. And once you feel damaged and you still keep listening to it, you are so stupid.You are a real man, You decided what you like by yourself,so now you shouldn't reproach anyone. That is your fault, not anyone's
When I read your sentences. I just feel that you are so weak, you did but you don't dare to make yourself responsible for what you did.
Think about that
be responsible
Nguyen
-- no music no life (hongvan310783@yahoo.com), February 02, 2004.
I heard about 5 years ago that Marilyn Manson performed oral sex on another male singer right on stage at a concert. What a sick pup.Don't listen to that garbage Lug!
-- - (David@excite.com), February 05, 2004.
David , actually I'm only interested in music !!Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), February 05, 2004.
Hey, to everyone out there, music is music, religion is religion, if you think that one influences the other in a bad way, then so be it, don't listen to the music that promotes the wrong idea on religion for your opinion... If you think that your church promotes the wrong music, talk to your priest or whoever, or don't go to that church simply... As it goes to Marilyn Manson, he is the best, he's so cool, especially the music, and the sense of the religious idea it gives to me, no problems there, therefore I am a fan, I listen to it, that's what I like, if you don't like his music, or his beliefs, try to influence him, if no success there, he's a lost man in your eyes, nothing you can do about him, and the millions or however going to hell... Anyone live in Nashville? If so, do you know if Manson is banned from here? Or is that a rumor? Anyone who lives in Nashville, who likes rock music go to the Buzzfest? Their really cool, they rock! -Vampman
-- Wesley Barnes (vampman@bellsouth.net), February 06, 2004.
Anyone that claims to be damaged by Marilyn Manson is under false pretences.Manson is NOT a damaging influence, he is an artist. Antichrist Superstar has been widely misinterpreted. In reality, it is Manson's autobiography, with fictionalised elements, designed to mimic Nietszche's theory of the Overman. In a nutshell, the album is about Manson's reaction to seeing a world that he believes is wrong, in how it encourages servile religious conformism and oppresses individuals. His reaction to this is to reject the church and transform into a Nietszchean Overman, who can create his own morality independant of that of Christian doctrine. However, when he realizes that he has, in order to become a superhuman, lost his humanity, he goes insane.
Actually, it is quite similar to David Bowie's "The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust," and even Manson's appearance is like that of Bowie (both are incredibly thin, and both have mismatched eyes, although Manson's are due to contact lenses.
Mechanical Animals, the next album, is frequently accused of being an orgy of drugs and sex, but in reality it is an analysis of societal conformism. Whilst Antichrist Superstar was about sacrificing humanity to become a rockstar, Mechanical Animals is about the dichotomy between the two, eventually resulting in the triumph of the human over the rockstar. In it, we see two characters, being Manson's human side (the breasted alien on the front cover), and his 'rockstar' side (on the back of the lyric booklet), dealing with a conformist world. Eventually, the Human side wins out.
Manson's work is only corrupting if you actually think he is advocating devil worship. He isn't. Antichrist Superstar was about the Overman, not the Antichrist. Mechanical Animals was about conformism, not substance abuse.
-- Andrew (Andy_X69@hotmail.com), February 14, 2004.
Okay so all yall who said they are messed because of MM need to figure out what the other couple buttons on your stereo are, there is a volumn button, and there is a STOP AND POWER button, if you cant find them look again because im almost definately sure they are there. if you really cant find them they yeah you are messed up, but not because of MM but because your mama probably dropped you on your head. We americans have this strange idea, its silly really if you think about it, its called the freedom of choice, it means that if you think and honestly believe that MM's music is damaging you then perhaps you should use that freedom to TURN THE DAMNED STEREO OFF!!! and while you are turning off your little box-0-music, the rest of us who like MM and are living in reality, will continue listening to him, and thus follow your example of expressing our freedom of choice. Lea
-- Lea Lee (thenamesLea@aol.com), February 18, 2004.
Labeling a poison appropriately doesn't interfere with a person's freedom to take it anyway if that is their choice. However, failing to label it appropriately would be negligent on the part of anyone who claims to be concerned about people's welfare.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 18, 2004.
I used my free will to listen to him, and it damaged me, whats so hard to understand?
-- dom (domngel@hotmail.com), February 18, 2004.
There is nothing wrong with MM. If you believe he will "damage" you then you'll just make yourself do that. You can blame your problems on someone else easily. Why don't you try to fix your own problems and stop blaming others. He's not making you listen to his music, if you don't like it then don't listen to it and stop bitching
-- Anarchy Angel (fool@yahoo.com), April 09, 2004.
David wrote:I heard about 5 years ago that Marilyn Manson performed oral sex on another male singer right on stage at a concert. What a sick pup.
Can you show me the link(s) to that/these article ??
I did found them , I must tell ya , some of them are really overreacted !!
Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), April 09, 2004.
before i start manson did not perform oral sex onstage. He stook the penis of Trent Reznor, lead singer from Nine Inch Nails (listen to their song 'closer', it will take your mind off manson, trust me. ) in his mouth onstage. It was done to provoke a reaction he loves the fact that religion dosent like him so he does things like that on purpose.Right now I will start. If religions like Catholisism and Christianity didnt exist in the first place their would be no MM. Manson has told everyone exactly what he has set out to do. End Christianity and other religions as such. This is because, and i agree, religion causes tension, violence, hate, war, suffering and alot of other things I neglect to mention. He does this with his anti- religious and anti-establishment lyrics. But thats all they are. Lyrics, they are his opinions and his philosophies which he presents in a musical form. Manson himself even tells people to take into account what they hear in his lyrics and then choose what THEY believe hes not forcing anyone to do anything, hes not forcing people to take a stand against religion, people are just realizing that alot of what he says is true. He just gets targeted by the church and governement for most problems. And dont give me any rubbish about him indoctrinating teenagers that dont know better because Im 15 and I think Ive just posed a rather good argument for him. In the end his message and my finishing statement is this...you are your own god.
-- Ricky (idrathernotsay@shutup.com), April 15, 2004.