Anyone else having difficulty getting onto the new "crashproof" site?

-- Anonymous, May 27, 2002

Answers

Yes, What's up with that? Crashproof site, oh well. Maybe it will get better-I'm just starting to get used to all the bells and other goodies. Daryll

-- Anonymous, May 27, 2002

At least we now have enough site diversification to ensure always being online.

-- Anonymous, May 27, 2002

Homesteading today was struck by lightning and still is not back up. Chuck has reopened Countryside on Lusenet without a password, go copy the archives while there's still time! :)

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2002

You will probably have to go to Lusenet and click on "all forums"; which takes a while to load, if you want to go back to the old CS forum. At least until it gets enough posts to go back onto the active list; or Chuck shuts it down again.

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2002

Polly...I loved your response to Chuck on the Countrystyle Homesteading forum!! You go girl :-)!!

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2002

Oh good grief!

More whining about Countryside again.

This forum was started to get away from Countryside but it seems that a big part of the traffic here is just talking about what Countryside did or didn't do.

Are we going to develop our own independant identity or live forever in the shadow of Countryside?

.......Alan.

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2002

Hmmmm. I would very much like the CS archives to stay open. However, I must point out that the name of a forum CANNOT be changed. If there is some way to open a NEW forum, under a different name, then copying the archives to it, I don't know how to do it!

It could be a static, read-only archive, done by removing the "Ask a question" link. But someone (probably several someones) have that bookmarked and can circumvent that, I believe. Chuck already removed the link and it was quickly posted how to get around that. So I don't know what the answer is!

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2002

I'll quit whining about Countryside when you quit whining about us whining about Countryside. So there! :-P

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2002

What Sherri said!!

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2002

Nope, it crashed and may be down for good. (I got a note from Chuck) He is looking to move it somewhere else. I don't like the fact that Dairy goat moved there too but at least they kept their old site going. Anyway CS is looking to move somewhere else again but I'm sure it's gonna take a while.

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2002

Ooops, should have looked. It's up again but in a different site, with missing data.

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2002

Sherri and Earthmama - THHHPPPBBTTTT!!!! : )

Hahahahahaha!

........Alan.

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2002

And besides - I DIDN'T whine over here! I went somewhere else to whine. And it wasn't whining, it was bitching! Sheesh! Gotta tell some people everything....

And na-na na-na boo boo to you, too; Alan! ;o)

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2002

Right on, Sherri and Polly!! I think we all have a right to "whine" (or bitch) about being denied access to something that rightfully belongs to all of us!!

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2002

Back to my point -

Are we going to develop our own independent identity or forever be a pale shadow of Countryside?

......Alan.

-- Anonymous, May 29, 2002

Personally, I don't think that we've ever been a "pale shadow of Countryside" any more than bitching about all the rain makes us a pale shadow of the Weather Channel. It's all a part of our lives.

-- Anonymous, May 29, 2002

HAhaha. First loves are always looked on with great sentimentality.....

-- Anonymous, May 29, 2002

Alan, I am confused about your frequent comments whenever we discuss CS or other forums. I really dont get it!

As far as a 'pale shadow of CS" goes, I do not see this forum as comparative to CS at all. Its true that's where we initially met, but we branched off cuz many of us had similar leanings: political, environmental, even spiritual, since the initial invite list was spun off a pagan thread. I also don't see BTS as a homesteading forum, although many consider themselves homesteaders, and we discuss those kinds of issues too.

I think most of us came over here cuz we wanted a SAFE place to just be ourselves, a place where we believed we would be treated with KINDNESS, and wouldnt have to worry about our posts being torn apart by paranoid, mean-sprited, self-righteous and self-defensive sorts of folks. For the most part, this has been exactly what we have found. To me, these are the some of the things that define the BTS "identity."

Alan, would you be interested in elaborating on what is on your mind on this issue, since it seems to annoy you? :)

Peace,

Like Sherri said, CS will always be a part of our lives, and it seems perfectly natural that we would talk about it.

-- Anonymous, May 29, 2002

I usually avoid inflammatory discussions online since I usually end up gettin' bitten in the ass by something I say (stop snickering Polly), but this oft repeated topic (Alan vs. Countryside discussion on BTS)is starting to give me a major pain in my ass anyhow so to Hell with discretion and its part in being valorous. Alan, if you do not care for a discussion...don't read about it. Ignore it. Turn a blind eye while those of us who like a little kvetching get on with what we enjoy. Noone yaps at you for things that YOU do that may annoy some (ok..I'm yapping now but I have bitten my tongue in the past). Everytime the subject of Countryside comes up you start making your little remarks and sometimes they can appear a bit snide. I have said nothing before because I really had no opinion on the Countryside situation but sometimes enjoyed hearing the various versions among my friends here. I am tired of you wantoing your own way in this all the time Alan. Let the Countryside Kvetching alone and we'll all be happier.

I'm off to get a Prozac refill now.

-- Anonymous, May 29, 2002

Ah, the "joys" of FAMILY squabbling! ;-)

Hey, Alison, I'll admit, I felt a small twinge of annoyance with Alan's remarks myself. But once again, the Internet is a hard place to express nuance. The little "razzberry" exchange following that reassured me. He may have cranky remarks, but he took the tart replies in good part. The 'family' analogy was intentional -- we bring up a subject that someone feels has been "done to death" and so makes a "Geez not again!" kind of remark. Which gets the :-P and razzberry matches going. Now, doesn't that sound like a family squabble? It's inevitable, so let's KEEP it "family" and not degenerate into hard feelings. :-)

Alan is one of us now, he has been assimilated, resistance is futile! (don't freak, Alan, it doesn't hurt -- much -- and anyway, it's TOO LATE! [evil grin]) If he has to put up with our warts, well, we have to put up with his! ;-)

-- Anonymous, May 29, 2002

Joy...Does the fact that Alan has been assimilated mean that he is now a "Borge" like us?? Did I spell that right?

-- Anonymous, May 29, 2002

"Oh bother." said the Borg. "We seem to have assimilated Winnie-the- Pooh."

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2002

Oh my Alan, you sweet thing. Obviously you have come to us from a very kind and loving family and you have no concept of the rules of a dysfunctional family!!! You very much remind me of the originator of this forum. The last time I “saw” him was in our chat room where he was being led by the nose into a gossip session about other members by our gossip queen. The number one rule is……..NEVER tell the truth. If you see sickness you are suppose to ignore it and pretend that it doesn’t exist.

The number two rule is NEVER stand up to or have an opinion different than the family bullies. You will be forever labeled as sick and terribly unhappy with yourself or, of course you would accept being relieved of your ignorance and be reeducated.

You see Alan, the rules are………don’t see, don’t hear, don’t tell and never, ever talk about it. I certainly hope that your “assimilation” into this dear family can be accomplished with less pain than I have experienced here as I have watched people I valued and wanted to learn more from disappear one by one.

Joy, when I said I felt invisible for the most part on the forums, this was the one I referring to more than any of the others. I have not even lurked here until the night before last and could not help watching to see how Alan’s suggestion would be received. Alan, this is not a shadow of CS, nor is it even close to a shadow of what the originator of this forum envisioned.

The most intellectual thing I have seen discussed here lately has been reading material. Mostly we talk about T.V., which I don’t watch, Countryside Forum or anyplace else that just might have opinions differing from the chosen few here, or who died on the latest soap opera.

I have heard from Kim by the way. They had hoped that more “homesteaders” would be admitted here and don’t even lurk anymore. They, like me, are trying to cut down on computer time and are very busy on the farm. Some others have left because they felt their silence was being taken as agreement to the total defamation of character that was taking place here and they just didn’t want to fight.

I just wanted to tell you Alan, I have greatly appreciated your contributions here and also admired your attempts to bring people’s visions higher. Take care and blessings to you.

.

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2002

Wow, Diane, does this place make you that unhappy? Or did I totally misinterpret what you said? Gossips, bullies, disfunctional? It seems to me this thread was resolving itself. It seems to me Alan said what he had to say. It was acknowledged and things were moving on. It's as if you've written Alan off from this board without him even speaking for himself. What exactly was the point of all that negativity? Everyone is certainly entitled to expressing their feelings, but I don't see that the analogy of the disfunctional family applies here. Nor do I acknowledge any bullies.

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2002

Well, I feel like I've been slapped in the face and kicked in the stomach. Literally. I’ve been feeling just sick for hours now, since opening this thread this morning.

I take your cutting remarks very personally, Diane. I considered sending you a private email, but you’re the one who wanted “truth” and things brought out in the open. So I’m posting this publicly. Why am I taking it personally? Well, because I am a MAJOR participant in this forum. I have every other person here outposted by quite a bit. I have 250 MORE posts than the next in line. Guess who’s next in line? Yes, Diane, YOU are next in highest number of posts. And you have 350 MORE posts than the third in line! You and I are the big posters in this “dysfunctional family” – so when you talk about the group as a whole, you’re talking about me and about you, in a very large part.

Comments like “gossip queen” and “family bullies” are not kind and loving. They are obviously meant to be cutting and hurtful. And whether they are the people you meant specifically or not, by making general remarks to include the entire group, you’ve insulted us all. And with all the nonspecific labelling, for all I know, you DO mean me specifically. Your sarcastic remarks about assimilation and family can be traced directly back to my post! And I think that was a very cheap shot about “who died in the latest soap opera”! I wasn’t the one who said it, but it was posted in the midst of over- the-fence-chat, in amongst other chatting. You can’t relate – so what? No one will EVER find a forum where they can relate to absolutely every chance remark someone else makes! The person who made the comment is a kind person and didn’t deserve that.

It seems obvious to me that a number of incidents in our past have been festering with you for quite awhile. However, I see a dichotomy in your remarks. Perhaps I really don’t “get it”, but it seems to me that you are implying that when you give your view on something, it is “truth”; but that someone else’s viewpoint, “truth” from where they stand, is wrong if it is at odds with your viewpoint. I know most everybody has that tendency, if not outright propensity. That doesn’t make us correct, however. People with two opposing views rarely have whole truth or whole error on either side!

As for being invisible on this forum, as I mentioned above, you can hardly claim that accurately. If you mean that your opinions are not shared by the majority here, and that makes you invisible, you might be right. Honestly though, I frequently have a hard time figuring out where you’re coming from and what you’re getting at. I always try to give the benefit of the doubt to people, assuming that they mean well and are not trying to be insulting and offensive, especially here. But having finally taken remarks to mean ME personally, I’m not feeling so charitable. In the few brouhaha’s we’ve had here, I have felt that the problems were directly due to WILLFUL misunderstanding on all sides; of assuming hurtful intentions, where there was none intended; of ignoring the possibility that there was another way to “take” something. So now, maybe I’m guilty of it myself. I guess I’ve reached the point where I just don’t care. If we can’t get along because we really like each other and WANT to interact, then so be it. Let this forum die. It wouldn’t be the first, and it won’t be the last.

A few more specific replies:

I have heard from Kim by the way. They had hoped that more “homesteaders” would be admitted here and don’t even lurk anymore. They, like me, are trying to cut down on computer time and are very busy on the farm.

Hmmm. Well, I don’t remember Kim or David ever suggesting anyone for membership here. I miss them, but if this forum is not what they wanted it to be, they’re not obligated to stay. How and who to let in here has always been a debate, and one that I never thought was ever resolved to everyone’s satisfaction or idea of what this forum should be.

The most intellectual thing I have seen discussed here lately has been reading material. Mostly we talk about T.V., which I don’t watch, Countryside Forum or anyplace else that just might have opinions differing from the chosen few here, or who died on the latest soap opera.

So, bring up some intellectual or merely interesting thing to talk about! Not just Diane – anybody! But especially those who think this forum is boring, or banal, or whatever! It seems to me that there have, in the past, been topics about interesting things that have just “died” because no one participated. I feel like a damned cheerleader (NOT my personality at all) most the time, trying to get people to post and participate. I'm pretty sick of it, frankly. OTOH, maybe you’d all be HAPPY if I’d give it up?

Some others have left because they felt their silence was being taken as agreement to the total defamation of character that was taking place here and they just didn’t want to fight.

Total defamation of character? What are you talking about? I always feel that there is some sort of email blizzard going on behind my back, because I rarely know what has gotten people upset. There frequently seems to be something going on that I am just not privy to. But I believe that what is really happening is that people are choosing to read more “between the lines” for things that just aren’t there! And then there are fights and things are said that are truly meant to be hostile and offensive. I guess my whole post is being offensive, though I’ve tried to be rational and honest (well, I ALWAYS TRY to do that, whether or not I succeed), so I guess I’m just as guilty. Again, today I just don’t care.

This is NOT how I wanted to spend my day. But after stewing about it for hours, I felt I had to post my reaction. I am getting very fed up with the whole thing. Probably tomorrow I’ll feel better – but maybe not. Start thinking about who would be willing to take over the administration of this site. Because, the way I am feeling now, I just don’t want to participate any more. It’s not worth the tears and the frustration. And I have lots to do. I could take a break from the computer.

Folks, I’m not making idle threats in an attempt to get people to beg me to stay. It’s honestly the way I feel right now, an accumulation of all the frustrations and tensions over time. So tomorrow or next week, maybe I’ll feel better, and just keep right on participating. But if I decide to say “Sayonara”, I don’t want you left wondering why. As I have wondered about others who have left.

How’s that for honesty and a closer look at the real me? :-(

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2002

Well, Joy...I'm gonna be brave here and step right in and say that I hope you don't leave. It's entirely up to you, but I like the REAL you!!

I read Diane's post earlier and have felt like I've been "sucker punched" all day. I've been at a total loss as to what to say. I come from a "dysfunctional" family and...believe me...we are not dysfunctional here (IMO!). Maybe I shouldn't have brought up the subject of a soap opera character that had died...guess it wasn't "intellectual" enough for some folks. Well, I sure feel stoopid now :-)!!

Anyways...I really LIKE this forum, whether or not I agree or disagree with what's posted here OR whether or not I have something intelligent to say about ANY subject. It's just nice to know that I can come here and talk about anything or whine about life or just "gab"!!!

Well, I'm not that good at putting into words how I feel, but I really hope that BTS can keep it together and we don't lose what closeness we have here!!

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2002

Normally, I wouldn't step into one of these arguments but evidently this isn't one of my normal days. On another post I was just about to thank Joy for the work she's been doing. Maybe I'll wait and see if she's still here tomorrow! Don't want to waste a lot of "thank you's" for nothing because I'm sure we're each allotted only so many in a life time and I've got to be running a little short by now!

Diane, maybe you could get a list of all your post and possibly, read them out loud to yourself. I don't know if, at times, you've just come in from a bad day at work or the medication isn't working that day but some of your posts are downright vindictive, bitter and at the very least, curt. I've had personal e-mails from a couple of folks that tell me that they try to step lightly around you because they don't want to incur your wrath or get into an argument with you on the board. You've never acted that way towards me on my posts and I probably wouldn't respond to you if you did but I've read every one of the post since I joined this board and have wondered many times why someone hasn't stepped on you. I like this board because every one seems to have a light heart and for the fact that a lot of serious stuff isn't discussed. If I feel the need to discuss important things like the "shadow government", aliens in area 51 or survival, there are other places I can go, where the people are just as paranoid as I am. Hey, we've a reason to be paranoid. . I like to keep it light and bright and uncomplicated and nothing on this board or any other board is so earth shaking that we have to continually hurt peoples feelings just because we disagree with them. Many a time I have written something that seemed perfectly polite until I reread it, out loud and then it took on a whole different meaning. Time to rewrite. Lighten up a little. It lowers blood pressure, makes you calmer and you'll live longer. And more people will respond to your post if they know that you'll be civil towards them.

Wildman, (feeling bad that we're fighting) (over nothing)

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2002

Dear Joy,

I am deeply saddened by the events on the forums and that you took my post so very personally. Yes, I do believe there is a lot that has been going on that has gone over your head, and stuff going on on other forums that you most likely have not seen.

I think you have done a wonderful job of moderating BTS, in fact I would have to admit you are one of the reasons I have stayed around at all for months now. I have enjoyed your quick wit and sense of humor, as well as others who participate here that I will not see other places.

My remarks about the truth actually had nothing to do with "my" version of truth so to speak. I felt that Alan was speaking the truth and was being attacked for it. I can tell by the other reactions that I would no longer be welcome at BTS and I can assure you I will not even lurk again. Wildman, I particularly appreciate your openness as I must honestly say I would have guessed I was mostly supportive and encouraging. Self knowledge as discovered through other eyes can be painful, but you can be certain I will pay close attention to my tone if I ever participate on a forum again.

I would imagine being not Christian you would not understand how very ugly some of the stuff that has been said would come across. I have never had a problem with not Christian, but the really nasty anti Christian things that have been said have eaten at me for a long time. I wish you well Joy, and I never, ever, intended anything I said to be taken so personally by you. It was a mistake for me to come back after 9-11, I can see that very clearly now.

As for Kim and David, I guess I should not have brought that up. No, they didn't put anyone up for nomination.........but if you would look back in the archives you could see where she brought up being "inclusive" and that I brought up that I thought the password was just to keep out trouble makers. I guess the way things stack up.......that would be me :>(

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2002

Diane, why couldn't your previous post been in the same tone and demeanor as your last one? Did that make sense? It seems like you could have certainly supported Alan without attacking others. I believe as Alan does. I don't particularly like the CS discussions but I am NOT the only person on this forum! Some of the others might not like the things I post but they allow me the opportunity to post anyway. I'm sure that if I kept posting what a great/ lousy job the president is doing, that eventually someone would jump up and say "enough"! That wouldn't mean that I would have to quit but only that some of the people were expressing their disinterest. It's like Joy indicated, if we were face to face and the subject came up again, you'd say "not again, we've already beat this horse to death". I quit posting on CS and eventually left because of things like this. It was getting to where you could say "it's a nice day" and twenty people would tell you what was wrong with it and how stupid you were for thinking that. I would hate to see this board follow the same path.

I don't remember anyone saying anything about Christians that I wouldn't say to a preacher but then I'm not very religious.

Now, if I left a forum every time I got cyber slapped, I wouldn't have lasted long on any of them. The internet is a wonderful thing but forums are not for people with thin skins. Eventually, your feelings WILL get hurt. That doesn't mean that you have to leave. It's just like life.

Wildman, (last word)

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2002

I like Joy, diane, Wildman, Alan, and *everyone* else here. XOXOX

My $.02 (fwiw): Knock it off, you guys!

This is the last, BEST forum around. Take a timeout, if you need one. Thanks...

love,

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2002

My snotty post seems to be the start of all this. I like everyone here too and for the most part avoid argument etc and often don't see where unintended slights etc come from. This time though I just wanted to speak my piece and look what the heck happened! Alan is thoroughly entitled to his opinion!!! And so is each member here. He has stated his opinion on the Countryside subject MANY times and I have stated mine but once and look at the wrangling thats broken out!! Poor Joy! You are a treasure and we don't deserve you! Diane, I have always respected your wisdom. Alan, I have great respect and awe for the sheer energy you use in life! How do you do it all, I need your secret!! Wildman, I just really, really like reading what you have to say. Now guys and gals, can we just retreat to our corners, lick our wounds and try to play nice again? I am so sorry I openned my big @#$%^ mouth in the first place. To all and sundry, my heartfelt apologies.

-- Anonymous, May 31, 2002

I am coming to the point where I thoroughly believe that love has to come from the inside first. So I'm going to say something that has needed saying for quite awhile. There is no reason to keep discussing things with Diane. More times than not these squabbles start with similar posts like Diane's most recent attack. And it was an attack. Then everyone apologizes for what they might have done or said and everyone tries to smooth it over with Diane. If we are so anti Christian and offensive, bullying, gossiping, and disfunctional, why does she keep beating her head against the wall with us. I'm ready to call Diane's bluff. If she is unhappy here, I wish she would find somewhere she is or cut down on computer time the way she keeps threatening. I believe what she said the first time is what she meant to say. But predictably it's then after the fact portrayed in another light which isn't so hateful. Then everyone gives her the benefit of the doubt (myself included) that it wasn't what she really meant. We almost lost a very valuable member of this forum (EM) recently due to this kind of balogna and I sat by not knowing what to say or whether to get involved. Well not anymore. So if she's looking for someone to tell her to leave so she has an excuse to go, well this is it.

Joy, I like it here. But I can certainly understand how you must be feeing. I hope you stay. I stop in here almost everyday and enjoy myself even though I don't always post. I will try to do better. I don't always feel I have something important or interesting to contribute. I hope you can look at this situation for what it is and let it just slide off. This has happened more numerous times than I care to think and if you haven't noticed these negative posts get a little more nervy and aggressive with each round. I'm not going anywhere. I hope you aren't either. I'm for one am not looking for an amicable resolution anymore. OBTW there is no reason to feel badly about watching or making comments about soap operas. You are NOT "stoopid". Didn't Eleanor Roosevelt say something to the effect that noone can make you feel inferior unless you give them permission? Hold your head high, and make no apologies for what you enjoy that isn't hurting others. Don't let this latest broo hahah bring you down. OK? And that goes for everyone.

-- Anonymous, May 31, 2002

Thank you Denise, and others, for the courage you have shown. It isn't easy to risk adding fuel to a fire, but sometimes it just needs to be done. I too have kept my mouth shut too long, have been "walking on eggshells." I realized, however, after Diane's bizarre attack on me personally some months ago, that it is futile trying not to offend someone who is expending gross amounts of energy on being a victim, and on finding offense around every corner, on taking most everything that is said personally, and on assuming most things are said with evil intent. None of these things are conducive to healthy relationships of any kind, and they indicate, IMHO, a definite need for psychological help.

Joy, this quote from your post is right-on:

"Total defamation of character? What are you talking about? I always feel that there is some sort of email blizzard going on behind my back, because I rarely know what has gotten people upset. There frequently seems to be something going on that I am just not privy to. But I believe that what is really happening is that people are choosing to read more “between the lines” for things that just aren’t there!"

That is what I believe also. There is no flurry of email you are not privy to; many of us talk to each other directly, we have become friends and that's what friends do, as you know. But this has nothing do with Diane's tirades, though she would like us to think it does. Diane likes to make shadowy references to mysterious things that have happened that none of the rest of us are privy to; my opinion is they exist only in her mind. Every one of the accusations she made when she attacked me, for instance, was a complete and total mystery,and still is. None of it made a lick of sense. And yes, Denise is correct that I was going to leave the forum, because I was so caught completely offguard by her viciousness that I was floored. Even though I understood not a word of it, I began to doubt myself, to wonder if all this unfathomable hatred I had garnered from Diane was truly due to something I had done. Well many many private emails from loving folks on this forum finally convinced me this wasnt the case, and I came back.

You talk about telling the truth, Diane. Well, I couldnt agree more! The truth is something I feel very strongly about. I am the most open person I know, actually, and it doesnt always make me popular, but at least people know where I stand. I feel you manipulate people by making them afraid to be themselves because they will incur your frequent wrath. I know I allowed this to happen to me, and it is totally against my nature, and I learned a good lesson from it. I know I ENCOURAGE people to bring it to my attention if I have been unkind or arrogant or defensive or whatever, and I mean that. But nothing can be discussed if we dont know what the hell it is! If you so believe in honesty, then practice what you preach! If you found someone making "anti-Christian" remarks (which I have a real hard time believing), then you should have brought them up, in a kind and compassionate manner, when they were posted, so we could all discuss them intelligently and kindly. Why does sheepish, who is a devout Christian, never complain about how "anti-Christian" the folks on this forum are? No one else here goes out of their way to hurt other people, period. I think it's cowardly and disengenuous to make reference to some deep dark resentments you are holding because of something you claim was said who knows when.

"My remarks about the truth actually had nothing to do with "my" version of truth so to speak. I felt that Alan was speaking the truth and was being attacked for it."

You say you think Alan was speaking "the truth." Well IMO, Alan was giving his OPINION, which he has every right to do. Whereupon we gave OUR opposing opinions on the subject, which is as it should be. I even encouraged him to discuss the issue, cuz I really was confused about it,and want to know why he feels the way he does. It could make a very interesting discussion! But just like MY question I posted where you went off on me months ago, we didnt get to discuss what I wanted to discuss, because you took over the subject and declared it an attack on YOU, when it nothing whatever to even do with you! Where the problem existed was, once again, is when people try to control others' speech. Alison was right in stating that if one isnt interested in a subject, one can ignore it. One does not have the right to shut others up about that subject, however, to justify their own disinterest. As in the rest of life, we must let others be who they are, EXCEPT when part of who they are is telling others how THEY should be. At least, that is what works for me.

I can guess that what you're thinking is that I am just now telling you how YOU should be. Well, here is the difference. You are the one who has gone on the attack, not only on this forum, but on others, countless times. And that is where you have stepped over the line. Actions taken after real attacks (as opposed to imaginary ones) are self-defensive. Even so, they do not feel good. None of us feels good right now. If greivances are handled at their source, in an orderly, mature and caring manner among friends, they can be resolved then and there, without all these hurt feelings and frustration. But like I said before, and as Denise referred to, I think that is part of the manipulation, the drama engendered by a temper tantrum.

I tried to be your friend, Diane; I have stopped trying I guess. I admit you seem irrational to me, and I worry for your mental health. I will, FWIW to you, always pray for you, and hope you someday find and truly believe in the beauty I know is inside the real you.

-- Anonymous, May 31, 2002

Last summer I spent a weekend at Diane's house and I had a wonderful time. She was sweet and happy and funny. I got to milk her goats and feed the chickens and since a thunderstorm had knocked out the electricity we built a campfire and sat up almost all night talking. I consider that Diane to be my friend.

I don't know the passive-aggressive Diane who posts such mean- spirited things on this list and others, and then trys to make the meanness look like it's our fault. I'm afraid of that Diane.

I logged on to the computer tonight to tell you all about the wonderful day I had today with my neice at her kindergarden graduation, but now I need to go have a good cry instead.

-- Anonymous, May 31, 2002