John, you have said, "Jmj Today, May 25, we members of the Catholic Church family honor, in a special way, the following friends of God -- saints whose souls are now in heaven:

St. Bede the Venerable (English, Benedictine priest, translator of scripture, Church historian, Doctor of the Church, d. 735) Pope St. Gregory VII [baptized Hildebrand] (Italian, Benedictine monk, papal advisor, elected to papacy in 1073, reigned until death [exiled by emperor] in 1085) St. Mary Magdalene de' Pazzi [baptized Catherine] (Italian, Discalced Carmelite nun, mystic, died at age 41 in 1607)

Holy Martyrs of Mexico (Mexican, 25 covert priests and persecuted laymen, martyred by anticlerical government between 1915 and 1937 [canonized May 21, 2000, during the Jubilee pilgrimage of Mexicans to Rome]) [Photos and Vatican biographies in Spanish are here (at "Saints in the year 2000") Viva Cristo Rey!] ----- St. Agustin Caloca (priest, seminary prefect, shot to death in 1927) ----- St. Atilano Cruz Alvarado (parish priest, shot to death in 1928) ----- St. Cristobal Magallanes Jara (shepherd, parish priest, started secret seminaries, shot to death in 1927) ----- St. David Galvan Bermudez (priest, seminary instructor, shot by firing squad in 1915) ----- St. David Roldan Lara (layman, officer of "Catholic Action" and a religious liberty league, shot to death in 1926) ----- St. David Uribe Velasco (parish priest, shot to death in 1927) ----- St. Jenaro Sanchez Delgadillo (parish priest, hanged from a tree in 1927) ----- St. Jesus Mendez Montoya (parish priest, shot to death in 1928) ----- St. Jose Isabel Flores Varela (parish priest, tortured, throat cut in 1927) ----- St. Jose Maria Robles Hurtado (parish priest, founded women's Congregation of Victims of the Eucharistic Heart of Jesus, hanged in 1927) ----- St. Julio Alvarez Mendoza (priest, shot to death in 1927) ----- St. Justino Orona Madrigal (parish priest, founded Poor Clare Sisters of the Sacred Heart, shot to death in 1928) ----- St. Luis Batiz Sainz (parish priest, seminary's spiritual director, shot by firing squad in 1926) ----- St. Manuel Morales (layman, father of three, officer of "Catholic Action" and a religious liberty league, shot to death in 1926) ----- St. Margarito Flores Garcia (parish priest, shot to death in 1927) ----- St. Mateo Correa Magallanes (parish priest, gave First Communion to Bl. Miguel Pro, shot to death in 1927) ----- St. Miguel de la Mora (priest, shot by firing squad in 1927) ----- St. Pedro Esqueda Ramirez (parish priest, catechist of children, shot to death in 1927) ----- St. Pedro de Jesus Maldonado Lucero (parish priest, promoter of nocturnal adoracion, blinded and beaten to death in 1937) ----- St. Rodrigo Aguilar Aleman (parish priest, poet, hanged in 1927) ----- St. Roman Adame Rosales (parish priest, founded Daughters of Mary of Nocturnal Adoration, shot to death in 1927) ----- St. Sabas Reyes Salazar (Parish priest, tortured and shot to death in 1927) ----- St. Salvador Lara Puente (layman, officer of "Catholic Action" and a religious liberty league, shot to death at age 21 in 1926) ----- St. Toribio Romo Gonzalez (parish priest, shot to death at age 27 in 1928) ----- St. Tranquilino Ubiarco (parish priest, hanged at age 28 in 1928)

St. Aldhelm of Sherborne (English, hermit, Benedictine abbot, poet, musician, bishop, d. 709) Bl. Claritus Voglia [Chiarito] (Italian, founder and manservant of a convent of Augustinian nuns, d. 1348) St. Dionysius of Milan (Italian, bishop, died in exile c. 359) St. Dunchadh of Iona (Irish, abbot in Scotland, d. 717) St. Egilhard of Cornelimunster (German, Benedictine abbot, martyred in 881) St. Gennadius of Astorga (Spanish, Benedictine abbot, bishop, hermit, c. 936) Bl. Gerbald (monk, martyred in 862) Sts. Injuriosus and Scholastica (French, husband and wife, c. 550) St. Leo of Troyes (French, abbot, c. 550) St. Madeleine Sophie Barat (French, co-founder of Society of the Sacred Heart, teaching nun and superior general from age 23 to 86, founded 105 houses in many countries, d. 1865 [canonized 1925]) St. Mary MacKillop (Australian, governess, co-founder and superior general of a congregation of Josephite sisters, d. 1909 [canonized 1995]) St. Maximus and Victorinus (Italian, biological brothers, bishop and deacon, missionaries in France, martyred by beheading c. 384) Sts. Pasicrates, Valentio, and two companions (soldiers, martyred in Bulgaria c. 302) St. Peter Van Van-Doan (Vietnamese, lay catechist, martyred by beheading in 1857 [canonized 1988]) Pope St. Urban I (Roman, elected to papacy c. 222, reigned until martyrdom by beheading in 230) St. Zenobius of Florence (Italian, adult convert from paganism, bishop, revived five people from death, c. 390)

If you have anything to share about these holy people, please reply now -- biographical episodes, prayers through their intercession, the fact that one is your patron saint -- whatever moves you. If you are interested in one of these saints and want to find out more about him/her, please ask. Information is sometimes available on the Internet.

All you holy men and women, saints of God, pray for us. God bless you. John" I was just wondering what the purpose of this post was, and how a saint is assigned to a certain day. Does the saint recieve extra-special favors from the Lord on "his day?"

-- Matthew (MagnificentExtravaganza@yahoo.com), May 28, 2002

Answers

Matthew wrote:

"I was just wondering what the purpose of this post was, and how a saint is assigned to a certain day."

It should be said that not all Christian feasts honor specific saints--we just had the Feast of the Holy Trinity last Sunday, for example. Here's some information about Ecclesiastical Feasts.

Often, saints are assigned the date of their martyrdom. Here's a link that goes into detail on what makes the Church officially acknowledge a saint: Beatification and Canonization.

Matthew wrote:

"Does the saint recieve extra-special favors from the Lord on "his day?"

Well, Matthew, the saint has passed away from this world. Did you think that some canonized saints are alive? I wonder, why you think we Americans celebrate "Martin Luther King, Jr. Day" and George Washington's birthday (or any holiday)? Anyway, here are some more links that discuss the important role of saints in Christianity:

1) Intercession of the Saints

2) Praying to the Saints

3) Saint "Worship."

In Christ,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 28, 2002.

Thanks a lot, Mateo. The reason I inquired whether you think they get special favors is because according to Catholic doctrine, the saints MUST be alive, otherwise, how could you pray to them? For the Lord strongly forbids trying to contact the dead, as a form of witchcraft and the occult. In fact, The Lord even pronounces a death sentence on any such person who does this. Therefore, since you are bound to believe that these saints are alive and well (spiritually speaking), and can grant us earthings favors when we ask them to pray for us, I was just wondering if the doctrine states that that saint's pull is heavier with our Heavenly Father on his designated day. Thanks for those links, I'm sure they'll prove informative! Matthew

-- Matthew (Magnificentextravaganza@yahoo.com), May 28, 2002.

Matthew writes:

"For the Lord strongly forbids trying to contact the dead"

Matthew, Christians believe that the Saints (all true followers of Jesus) are Alive in Jesus Christ after their Earthly death. We do not cease to exist after we leave this world. If "contacting the dead" is forbidden, you might want to ponder what Jesus was doing with Elijah and Moses in Matthew 17. Were they not "dead"?

Interestingly, one of my links brings up this very passage:

""No Contact with the dead"

Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10?11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it?for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren?him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10?15).

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God?s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother?s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I?m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one?s behalf."

I hope that you'll take the time to read these links.

In Christ,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 28, 2002.

Matthew writes:

I was just wondering if the doctrine states that that saint's pull is heavier with our Heavenly Father on his designated day.

Is this something that you've suspect Catholics to believe? You'll be happy to know that your imagined doctrine doesn't exist in Catholicism (or Christianity in general). A Saint's feast day doesn't have anything to do with their "pull." By extension, is Jesus more powerful for you on Christmas? Of course not. A saint's feast day is a commemoration of that person who lived for Christ...why the confusion?

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 28, 2002.

Thanks, Mateo, that was well-stated (by whoever wrote it.) What interesting doctrines you Catholics have!

-- Matthew (Magnificentextravaganza@yahoo.com), May 28, 2002.

Matthew,

What makes you say that Catholic doctrine "interesting" to you?

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 28, 2002.

Praying to the saints, who we do not even know where they are spending eternity (Only God knows, and in fact some of these "saints" have seemed awfully questionable to me), and thinking that the Lord doesn't care about us enough to answer our prayers ourselves. I ask my living friends for prayer. But the bodies of the Catholic Saints are in the ground. They are asleep. Conscious, as one dreaming, but powerless to hear me or assist me. It is appointed unto a man once to die and then the judgement. Interesting it is to pray to a person I have never met, who is dead. Peculiar and unusual. We are not passing judgement on you or your friends.

-- Matthew (Magnificetnextravaganza@yahoo.com), May 28, 2002.

Matthew writes:

"Praying to the saints, who we do not even know where they are spending eternity (Only God knows, and in fact some of these "saints" have seemed awfully questionable to me), and thinking that the Lord doesn't care about us enough to answer our prayers ourselves. I ask my living friends for prayer."

And yet you do not know where your "living friends" will be spending eternity.

If you question the lives of the saints, remember that they are not remembered because they were sinless. They are remembered because they rejected their sinfulness and turned to Jesus Christ as a Savior and a model for living. You yourself have little to argue regarding these saints if you truly believe in a "Faith Alone" doctrine... Which Saints are "awfully questionable" to you?

Matthew writes:

"But the bodies of the Catholic Saints are in the ground. They are asleep. Conscious, as one dreaming, but powerless to hear me or assist me."

They are with Jesus Christ! They are beholding the Beatific Vision. Is Heaven just a "dream" to you? It doesn't that their bodies are in the ground--we humans are both body and spirit.

Matthew writes:

"It is appointed unto a man once to die and then the judgement. Interesting it is to pray to a person I have never met, who is dead. Peculiar and unusual. We are not passing judgement on you or your friends."

You pray to Jesus Christ...a man whom you have never "met", someone who "died" 2000 years ago. Peculiar and unusual, from a non-Christian point of view...

BTW, why do you always speak in first-person plural (the royal "We"?). You use "we" and "us" as if you're backed up by an army of like-minded people. You might want to be a little more humble when you speak.

In Christ,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 28, 2002.

You really can't compare Jesus, who as fulfilled hundreds of prophecies, lived a sinless life, been crucified, became our sin, and was raised from the grave byt the Very Lord Himself, to other saints, can you, Mateo?

I do not know where my living friends will be spending eternity. Should I not ask them for prayer then? No, friend, I know where they are now: Good ol' terra firma (you like that Latin, do you?).

The saints are in heaven? Prove it. Show me in the Bible Father Damian, Padre Pio, Augustine, Constantine, or Anthony? In fact, show me one instance of a person getting down on his knees and praying to another saint. Someone tried that with Peter once, didn't he. Do you remember Peter's reaction? I think you do, Mateo.

I'm not using the royal "we" but I am countering the idea that there are an infinite number of Catholic supporters behind your every whim and idea. I'm glad you noticed that, it shows some scholarship on your part. You really are very intellegent.

As far as my describing the dead as "asleep," you might want to argue your point with the Lord Jesus himself...since he's the one I took that metaphor from.

Here's what it really comes down to, Friend Mateo (I consider you my friend). God loves us so much that he died for us. He cares about us and wants to answer our prayers. So instead of praying to saints to pray to Jesus to pray to God, let's go straight to the Lord Jesus himself, the one mediator between God and man (according to 1 Timothy 2:5). We don't have to, nor ought we to try to set up more mediator's in front of Jesus. Were you baptised into the name of Peter, Paul or Mary? Did Thomas Aquinas die for your sin on Golgotha? I think the issue is self-explanatory. Thanks so much for your questions, Mateo. You have really helped me to question my own faith, and get back to the Word for answers. I am a better man because of it.

-- Matthew (Magnificentextravaganza@yahoo.com), May 28, 2002.

Matthew writes:

"You really can't compare Jesus, who as fulfilled hundreds of prophecies, lived a sinless life, been crucified, became our sin, and was raised from the grave byt the Very Lord Himself, to other saints, can you, Mateo?"

I wasn't making a comparison of the Person of Jesus to the Saints. I made the comparison because your own argument betrays you when you speak to non-Christians. You argue that it is worthless to pray to "dead" people whom we've never "met." Try and place yourself in the position of a non-believer, and you'll see the problem of your argument.

Matthew writes:

"I do not know where my living friends will be spending eternity. Should I not ask them for prayer then? No, friend, I know where they are now:"

Similarly, the Church (eternally guided by the Holy Spirit, as promised by God) knows where the Saints were when they were alive. Outside of ordained saints, if I know of a saintly aunt or uncle, it wouldn't take a Church declaration for me to know that I could petition them to pray for me after their death, just as I asked before their death.

Matthew writes:

"The saints are in heaven? Prove it. Show me in the Bible Father Damian, Padre Pio, Augustine, Constantine, or Anthony? In fact, show me one instance of a person getting down on his knees and praying to another saint."

Prove in the 2000 year old texts of the Bible even speaks of Padre Pio who lived in the 20th century? This is about as silly as looking to the Bible to prove that my aunt or uncle is in Heaven.

Once again, I hope you'll read the links that I've provided. Here's a clip regarding kneeling:

"The fact that someone kneels before a statue [of a saint] to pray does not mean that he is praying to the statue, just as the fact that someone kneels with a Bible in his hands to pray does not mean that he is worshiping the Bible. Statues or paintings or other artistic devices are used to recall to the mind the person or thing depicted. Just as it is easier to remember one?s mother by looking at her photograph, so it is easier to recall the lives of the saints by looking at representations of them."

Kneeling is simply a stance for prayer. May we look to holy men and women for models of Godly life? Well, the Bible seems to support this. Here's another clip:

"Imitation is the Biblical Form of Honor

The most important form of honoring the saints, to which all the other forms are related, is the imitation of them in their relationship with God. Paul wrote extensively about the importance of spiritual imitation. He stated: "I urge you, then, be imitators of me. Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church" (1 Cor. 4:16?17). Later he told the same group: "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:1?2). The author of the book of Hebrews also stresses the importance of imitating true spiritual leaders: "Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith" (Heb. 13:7).

One of the most important passages on imitation is found in Hebrews. Chapter 11 of that book, the Bible?s well-known "hall of fame" chapter, presents numerous examples of the Old Testament saints for our imitation. It concludes with the famous exhortation: "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us" (12:1)?the race that the saints have run before us."

Matthew writes:

"We don't have to, nor ought we to try to set up more mediator's in front of Jesus."

Following this logic, you might forget that you are more than just an individual believer--you are part of a community of Faith in Jesus Christ. That community and the relationship you have with it are important. So important, that it's one of the main commandments (Love thy neighbor). We don't leave this community when we die. We believers are still a part of God's flock.

If you are against "mediators in front of Jesus," I would expect you to stop praying for your friends, and to demand that they stop praying for you. This, of course, goes against the Bible verse, Matthew 18:20 - "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them." This line alone discredits what you have been taught. We Christians can and ought to look to eachother for prayer. The Bible is quite clear that our acting as part of a community of believers is integral to our faith.

Matthew writes:

"As far as my describing the dead as "asleep," you might want to argue your point with the Lord Jesus himself...since he's the one I took that metaphor from."

I don't argue with Jesus...I argue with your interpretation of the Bible's meaning. Did Jesus say the saints would be "Conscious, as one dreaming, but powerless to hear me or assist me."? Matthew, you interpreted past what the Bible says. The apostles spoke of those who passed away as "asleep" because that is what a dead body looks like--someone in a deep sleep. This does not infer what you suggest--that Jesus stated that Heaven is a dream-state--neither Jesus nor the Bible make such a statement.

"I'm not using the royal "we" but I am countering the idea that there are an infinite number of Catholic supporters behind your every whim and idea."

Your using "we" and "us" is hypocrisy at worst, and patronizing reverse-psychology at best. I never made an argument that quantity of believers forms Truth, as if we vote on Truth. This is, in fact, a de facto "dogma" of Protestant theology. How ironic...

I understand that you may feel a bit uncomfortable because Protestantism is diverse enough that it simultaneously embraces and rejects just about every tenet of Christianity. Just goes to show, building theology on a solid foundation (Jesus Christ) is not that easy when outside the Church that he founded.

I do hope you'll read the links I've provided. You'll find that from the Bible to today, the saints have been an important source of inspiration for all of Christianity.

In Christ,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 28, 2002.

Oops, I wrote:

Outside of ordained saints...

I meant:

Outside of Canonized Saints...

:-)

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 28, 2002.

Jmj

Thank you, Mateo, for answering Matthew's question to me (and a lot more). You did this much better than I could have done -- both in factual terms and in terms of the patience you showed toward a man who gradually revealed a previously hidden disdain for our Faith.

I hope that, by reading more and more here, Matthew will become increasingly familiar with authentic Christian truths and will lose his prejudices simultaneously.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 28, 2002.

Mateo, I can see that you really do know your stuff. Also, let me just say that, although I still have not seen specific Biblical evidence for prayer to deceased individuals, and I have actually heard your points before (through other Catholic sources), I must thank you for delivering your message with respect, not name-calling or insulting. That is a very rare thing on this forum and you should be commended. Also, please don't think that I take your answers lightly. I do not wish to merely brush them aside, because it is obvious you took a lot of time and effort to answer my questions according to Catholic Doctrine.

I think what really separates us is our notions of Jesus. Whereas you and Eugene seem to view him as a God uninterested in our petty requests, but lovingly granting favors to those glorified saints in heaven (never answering prayers for you or my sake, who have little heavenly pull), I see the Jesus as he described himself when he said that he would never leave us nor forsake us. No one will be able to snatch us out of his strong hand. We are called to turn to the Lord in our distress (just ask Courtenay, who has been dealing with this issue recently) and to approach the throne of God with confidence (1 Tim 3:12 i think) and continually offer up all kinds of petitions and requests to the Lord.

Therefore there is no room in my schedule for petitions to intermediary intercessors. I'll go right to the throne itself and speak with my risen Lord; this is not because of anything I've supposedly done to deserve it, but because my Father loves ME.

-- Matthew (magnificentextravaganza@yahoo.com), May 28, 2002.

Matthew,

You write:

"Whereas you and Eugene seem to view him as a God uninterested in our petty requests,"

I've never made nor inferred such a statement. I do believe that not only is commemoration of saints historically Christian (2000 years), it's also supported in the Bible and the new Testament. There's a phrase that is secular, but I think succinct:

"No man (or woman) is an island."

Or, in Christian-speak:

"No believer is an island."

We as Christians constantly rely on eachother to be better Christians. Encouraging total detachment from the great saints of history is counter-productive. You may be asking yourself, why bother considering the lives of saints. I have a simple answer: saints were once sinners! We can identify with their failings, and look to them as examples for overcoming our own sinful tendencies. These virtuous men and women strove to imitate Jesus.

To show a parallel in terms of Biblical scholarship, this would be the equivalent of saying, "I refuse to read any Bible study guides, because then I would be following the theology of men, not of the Bible." To limit one's spiritual readings to the Bible (to the point of forbidding other books) is an equally bad idea. I guess, taking it further, you'd have to ignore all translations of the Bible (which are inevitably all "interpretations") and beginning learning Aramaic, Hebrew, and ancient Greek. Yet, I find commentaries and footnotes tremendously useful to understanding the Bible. Does this go against the warning in Revelation:

Revelation 22:18 - "I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book."

The Bible study guides and spiritual writings in general are no more an affront to the primacy of the Bible than the saints are to the primacy of Jesus Christ.

You see, ignoring Christianity's history and only considering the saints of the Bible and those who you have met in your lifetime may not be the wisest move. 2000 years of Christianity, the Church's fruits (both in saints and theology) are valuable for today's Christians. If you can see the value of theologians' insights, it shouldn't be to hard to see the value of all of those Christian Saints of previous ages to today's Christians.

Even our namesake St Matthew was a "shady character" before he met Jesus--he was a Tax collector! He worked for the IRS of the time...and the tax collector's weren't the most reputable men--as I understand, they worked on commission to make their wages. Yet, both our parents' thought it wise to name us both after this sinner-turned-saint!

Enjoy, my fellow Gift of God,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 29, 2002.

PS:

Matthew, you wrote:

"Therefore there is no room in my schedule for petitions to intermediary intercessors."

Yet you value your friends' prayers, knowing that they can intercede for you and your petitions.

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 29, 2002.

I do not pray to any of my friends. Neither do I attempt to contact them telepathically in another, faraway place. This is what a person attempts to do when he "prays" to a saint. It would be so easy for the devil or a demon to disquise himself as a saint or even an angel (1 John). As well, regardless of what anyone says, the condition of a man's heart is known only to the Lord, to whom belong the deep secrets of the soul. No man can say that he honestly knows where another person is spending eternity. The Lord can do all things. We should go to him as a child goes to a father. Also, humans are humans. There is no scripture that tells me that we will be able to hear all the prayers of the living while we are in heaven. Paul says that we will "know, even as I am known," but this does not include the possibility of omniscience, attributed to the Lord alone. Heaven is a place for our souls to rest, not answer or forward literally millions of prayer requests each day. Here's a good example of how saint-prayer can be idolatrous. A few months ago I took my retainer out of my mouth and set it aside, because my friend and I were going to compete in a friendly wrestling match. After the match, however (I won :D), I could not find my retainer. The mother of my friend, a devout Catholic, offered up a prayer to St. Anthony (who supposedly aids in the recovery of lost items--sounds "god"-like to me). I asked the Lord for help, and after about 45 minutes of searching in the wet grass that night, during which time she kept repeating "help us St. Anthony," my friend's brother found it. I thanked the Lord, who had indeed helped us. My friend's mother? "Oh, boy. Thank you Saint Anthony!" Now this is misguided misunderstanding at best, and blatant idolatry at worst. The idea that it is acceptable to pray to a saint or angel is ridiculous to say the least, and I would go so far to say blasphemous.

I do not intend to stir up any dissention among us by this post, however, this is a very important issue and needs discussion. Trust in the Lord and play it safe. Don't worry, he cares enough about you to answer your prayers. Even if it IS okay to pray to saints, why not just go to the Lord through Christ? Christ is a man too, don't forget. You can approach him. He loves you, and you have nothing to lose by taking me up on my suggestion.

-- Matthew (magnificentextravaganza@yahoo.com), May 29, 2002.

Matthew writes:

"I do not pray to any of my friends. "

You have to abandon this idea that Catholics advocate prayer to saints as if they were deities. An honest reading of the links that I've provided should dispel that myth.

Prayer is a form of communication. According to dictionary.com, prayer is:

1) To make a devout or earnest request for.

2) To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech.

When you ask your friends, you are "earnestly requesting" that they join your petition to God. This is totally Biblical, dispite your opinion that the Bible's doesn't show that petitioning other believers is effective.

You, by definition, "pray to" your friends to intercede for you to Jesus. Though you may interpret this phrasing to mean "worship," my use of the phrase "pray to" is more in line with the definition of its meaning in English. Your interpretation that pray infers worship is your inaccurate understanding of English.

Off the topic a bit, even the term "worship" does not infer that the object of worship is a deity...the object can be merely sacred.

Matthew writes:

"Neither do I attempt to contact them telepathically in another, faraway place. This is what a person attempts to do when he "prays" to a saint"

So you are saying that if you have a brother in a warzone on the other side of the world, he cannot ask for your prayers because you are too far away? This is a silly idea, considering that God lives outside of the bounds of time and space. Your limitations on prayer are your own invention, not something Biblical. The Bible never speaks of these limitations. In fact, the fact that Elijah and Moses show up to be with Jesus, we know that they aren't merely "dreaming," as you interpret.

Matthew writes:

"It would be so easy for the devil or a demon to disquise himself as a saint or even an angel"

According to the Bible, Jesus warned us that the devil would try to disguise himself as Jesus. This doesn't stop me from praying to Jesus.

Matthew writes:

"There is no scripture that tells me that we will be able to hear all the prayers of the living while we are in heaven."

This is just an outright false statement. The scriptures do speak of the saints in Heaven. Read the Luke 16:19-31 -

"There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz'arus, full of sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz'arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'"

Now, the rich man had died, but notice that neither he, nor Lazarus, nor Abraham were in a dream state. They were speaking with eachother. Now, Abraham couldn't help the damned rich man (because of the chasm). When the rich man petitioned Abraham to warn his family, Abraham didn't say that he couldn't warn them, he said that he wouldn't warn them. It's also interesting that this was a two-way dialog. Abraham heard the condemned man and was able to respond. Again, the saints aren't in an unconscious dream-state, according to the Bible.

So:

1) It's Biblical that we can communicate with saints (like Abraham, Elijah and Moses).

2) It's Biblical that we can imitate them and remember their faith:

Hebrews 13:7 - "Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith."

3) It's Biblical to expect that looking to the faithful (living and deceased) is encouraged by God as an effective form of prayer:

Revelation 8:3,4 - "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God."

As a funny aside, I always get the impression that "Bible Protestants" loathe Catholics (and other Christians) who use incense, as if it were some outward sign of a "man-made" ritual.

Matthew writes:

"Here's a good example of how saint-prayer can be idolatrous..."

Fundamentally, I wonder why you think we should pray...maybe your idea is different from mine. I don't, for example, believe that pray should be primarily centered on what God can give me. I don't think I need to pray for money, food, friends, clothes, health, or even a retainer as a good in and of itself. I have a single prayer for God--to conform my life to His will. St. Francis of Asisi has a wonderful prayer:

"Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace. Where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; where there is sadness, joy.

O, Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console; to be understood as to understand; to be loved as to love; For it is in giving that we receive; it is in pardoning that we are pardoned; It is in dying that we are born to eternal life."

Further, St. Ignatius Loyola (and the Jesuits) have a motto: Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam (To the greater glory of God). Basically, every petition that I pray for (no matter whom I ask assistance from) is to glorify God. If I would be a better instrument of God with more money, God will provide. If a material request (let's say I want a new car) would hurt my relationship with God, I'm sure that God would be less inclined to hear me.

If you are looking to God as if His job is to satisfy you materially, you are already acting idolotrous...your idolotry is directed at your material desires. Asking for saints to intercede with you is no more idolotrous than asking any believer to intercede for you to Jesus.

Matthew writes:

"The idea that it is acceptable to pray to a saint or angel is ridiculous to say the least, and I would go so far to say blasphemous."

Yet, communicating with saints and angels is totally Biblical, despite your conclusion.

Matthew writes:

"Trust in the Lord and play it safe."

If "playing it safe" means that I should ignore the Bible's support that we are a community of believers (both living and dead) who can pray for eachother, I'll ignore your un-Biblical suggestion.

Matthew writes:

"Don't worry, he cares enough about you to answer your prayers."

Here again, you are putting up a straw man. Who said that I don't pray to Jesus?

Matthew writes:

"Even if it IS okay to pray to saints, why not just go to the Lord through Christ? Christ is a man too, don't forget. You can approach him. He loves you, and you have nothing to lose by taking me up on my suggestion."

Actually, you would have me lose the power of prayer from my brothers and sisters in Christ. I have nothing to gain by your suggestion, and much to lose.

For what it's worth, you're in my prayers! :-)

In Christ,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 29, 2002.

Matthew, you wrote to Mateo:
"I think what really separates us is our notions of Jesus. Whereas you and Eugene seem to view him as a God uninterested in our petty requests, but lovingly granting favors to those glorified saints in heaven (never answering prayers for you or my sake, who have little heavenly pull), I see the Jesus as he described himself when he said that he would never leave us nor forsake us."

For you to have written those words, Matthew, you must have completely wrong information about the relationship of a Catholic (including Mateo and Eugene) to God and to Jesus. Much of your argument on this thread is based on serious misconceptions.

We do not approach God only through intercessory prayer or only through saints' prayers. Although those kinds of prayers are much treasured by Catholics (since we retain the idea from the ancient Church that Jesus founded), nevertheless it is a secondary form of prayer.

Our primary forms of prayer are liturgical -- the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours -- which contain a torrent of petitions to God the Father through his Son Jesus in the unity of the Holy Spirit. Is it possible that you have come to a Catholic forum to try to convince us that we are wrong, without yourself having ever attended Mass (or at least having watched the Mass on television). If your answer is that you have witnessed a Mass, then I would have to conclude that you did not pay attention; had you paid attention, you would realize how the Mass, the central act of prayer and worship in the life of us Catholics, is absolutely Jesus-centered, with a multitude of prayers addressed through Him to the Father.

Did you know that Catholics are obliged to attend Mass each Sunday and that millions of Catholics attend Mass at least one other day a week too? Did you know that, every day, most of the world's 400,000 priests celebrate Mass -- meaning that, with every tick of the clock, about four priests on this planet are beginning to say exactly the same prayers to almighty God for you and me?

In case you have doubts that the Mass is as I describe it -- i.e., in case you think that it is a conglomeration of prayers to saints -- I invite you to read through the basic texts of the Mass at a site I will not link for you. To what you will actually see at the site, you will have to add the knowledge that each Mass has the reading of passages from three or four Biblical books.
Here is the site I mentioned. To save space, the person who designed the page omitted the text of lengthy and vitally important prayers called the Eucharistic Prayers (of which the priest has several choices). Here is a link to one of the widely used Eucharistic Prayers.

Here's hoping that this will be an eye-opener for you, Matthew.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 29, 2002.

That was cute. Some day I will spell things correctly and start closing links properly again. I meant to say:
I invite you to read through the basic texts of the Mass at a site I will now link for you.

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 29, 2002.

I said, "I do not pray to any of my friends. " To this you replied, "You have to abandon this idea that Catholics advocate prayer to saints as if they were deities. An honest reading of the links that I've provided should dispel that myth.

Prayer is a form of communication. According to dictionary.com, prayer is:

1) To make a devout or earnest request for.

2) To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech." This is clarified in the next point.

Then you said, "Off the topic a bit, even the term "worship" does not infer that the object of worship is a deity...the object can be merely sacred. " You should know that you are running contrary to the previously stated views of other Catholics in this forum. When accused of "worshipping" things other than God, ie. saints, Mary, statues, wafers, and crucifixes, several of the major contributors strongly corrected the posters, calling them anti-Catholic and insisting that only the Lord Almighty is ever worshipped by Catholicism. Are you attempting to disagree with them by saying that it is acceptable to worship "merely sacred" icons and objects? Perhaps you know what the Lord says about such practices?

Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are the Lord . You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.

Is there anyone else, any "sacred" object that can stake claim to any of God's attributes?

Revelation 15:4 Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."

The Lord alone is holy and "sacred." Therefore, the idea that there are certain other holy artifacts deserving of your praise does not stand.

Exodus 20 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Only the Lord is worthy, and we are not supposed to even construct images or idols! Miriam-Webster's dictionary defines an idol as the following: "1 : a representation or symbol of an object of WORSHIP (emphasis mine); broadly : a false god. 2 a : a likeness of something b obsolete : PRETENDER, IMPOSTOR 3 : a form or appearance visible but without substance 4 : an object of extreme devotion ; also : IDEAL 2 5 : a false conception : FALLACY."

Is this enough, or do you need to see more evidence that "worship" of anything less than The Great I Am is wrong, even wicked?

I said: ""Neither do I attempt to contact them telepathically in another, faraway place. This is what a person attempts to do when he "prays" to a saint" To this you replied: "So you are saying that if you have a brother in a warzone on the other side of the world, he cannot ask for your prayers because you are too far away? This is a silly idea, considering that God lives outside of the bounds of time and space." If my brother was in a warzone in another place, I couldn't very well pray to him and expect me to hear him, could I? I'm glad that the dictionary defines prayer ans communication and supplication. However, I cannot do this unless I have a physical means of communication, ie. phone, voice, internet. You mention God living outside the bounds of time and space. And yet, Jesus said, before he left us, that, "I am with you, even to the end of the age." I serve a Lord who will never leave me nor forsake me. Though he sits upon his throne in heaven, his spirit is physically with me, and he helps me when I pray, "interceding with groans that words cannot express" (Romans). God CAN hear me, even though he is in a very different dimension (as far as we know). He loves me enough to do this for me. So you cannot compare this God with my brother or any other person, living or deceased.

I said, "It would be so easy for the devil or a demon to disquise himself as a saint or even an angel" To this you replied, "According to the Bible, Jesus warned us that the devil would try to disguise himself as Jesus. This doesn't stop me from praying to Jesus." I was wondering if you could give me a chapter and verse where the Bible says this. Anyway, Jesus did say that his followers (his sheep) would know his (the shepard's) voice. I know the voice of Jesus. I am able to distinguish it from the voice of temptation or the world or the devil. However, I do not know Mary's voice; Mary is not my shepard. There is no way to distinguish between the voice of a saint and the voice of a very deceptive demon, especially if the message it brings is spiritually or morally sly or ambiguous (read some of the supposed revelations from Mary. Is Rome really "the eternal city?") I know the shepard's voice, so I pray to him, not the other sheep, and certainly not to the wolf.

I wrote, "There is no scripture that tells me that we will be able to hear all the prayers of the living while we are in heaven." To this you replied, "This is just an outright false statement. The scriptures do speak of the saints in Heaven. Read the Luke 16:19- 31" This passage speaks of the afterlife (Sheol) before the Resurrection of Jesus. It has nothing to do with praying to saints in heaven.

I have to conclude now for time's sake, but let me just say this. No saint has ever been given the Godly power of being able to intercept our prayers on their way to God. They are not to be worshipped (only God is) nor prayed to (only God is). Anything else is idolatry, praying and adoring mere spirits.

You will not lose the community of saints. I will pray for you if you wish. What can I pray for you about (notice I asked...when was the last time St. Anthony asked if he could find something for you?) Saints don't talk back. I do. The Lord does too, and he is more than willing and able to help you.

Thank you for reading this lengthy message, but as I said, this is an important issue, and idolatry is not to be taken lightly. Try to look objectively at what the Bible really says. Thanks Mateo.

-- Matthew (magnificentextravaganza@yahoo.com), May 29, 2002.

Matthew wrote:

"Then you said, "Off the topic a bit, even the term "worship" does not infer that the object of worship is a deity...the object can be merely sacred. " You should know that you are running contrary to the previously stated views of other Catholics in this forum."

I was simply bringing up the fact that the term "worship" in English is not as limiting as you use it. I happen to also apply "worship" only to God, but I though it was an interesting tidbit--please don't start with accusations merely because I am explaining the definition of a term according to Webster and The American Heritage Dictionary. If you must complain to anyone, complain to the authors of the dictionary.

Matthew writes:

When accused of "worshipping" things other than God, ie. saints, Mary, statues, wafers, and crucifixes, several of the major contributors strongly corrected the posters, calling them anti-Catholic and insisting that only the Lord Almighty is ever worshipped by Catholicism. Are you attempting to disagree with them by saying that it is acceptable to worship "merely sacred" icons and objects? Perhaps you know what the Lord says about such practices?

Oh boy...well, you are once again misstating fact. Yes, I agree that we don't worship the saints (including Mary). We do worship the Holy Eucharist! Jesus is the Holy Eucharist. If you have a problem with the Church teachings (consistant for 2000 years and totally Biblical), then start a new thread...better yet, read the old threads, or read this and this.

You quote scripture:

"Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are the Lord . You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you."

Nice verse, what's your point? Just FYI, if you are against the use of statues, you might want to ask yourself why God commanded Moses to create a bronze serpent...it wasn't just for decoration.

Matthew writes:

"Is there anyone else, any "sacred" object that can stake claim to any of God's attributes?"

Ummm...a bronze serpent with healing powers?

"Revelation 15:4 Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."

The Lord alone is holy and "sacred." Therefore, the idea that there are certain other holy artifacts deserving of your praise does not stand."

So you are calling Moses an idolator?

Matthew writes:

"Exodus 20 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Only the Lord is worthy, and we are not supposed to even construct images or idols! Miriam-Webster's dictionary defines an idol as the following: "1 : a representation or symbol of an object of WORSHIP (emphasis mine); broadly : a false god. 2 a : a likeness of something b obsolete : PRETENDER, IMPOSTOR 3 : a form or appearance visible but without substance 4 : an object of extreme devotion ; also : IDEAL 2 5 : a false conception : FALLACY."

Is this enough, or do you need to see more evidence that "worship" of anything less than The Great I Am is wrong, even wicked?

I'll ask again, are you calling Moses an idolator? Isn't he the guy who carried down the Ten Commandments from God?

Matthew writes:

"If my brother was in a warzone in another place, I couldn't very well pray to him and expect me to hear him, could I? I'm glad that the dictionary defines prayer ans communication and supplication. However, I cannot do this unless I have a physical means of communication, ie. phone, voice, internet."

I've said this before, we are both body and spirit. You deny that we have a spiritual side; at the very least, you feel that your spiritual side is an impotent, unconscious dream-state. Yet it's out spirit that has to fight spiritual warfare, not our body! If you are deny the ability to communicate in a spiritual sense with saints and angels, why do you believe that you can speak with and listen to the Spirit of God? In the reverse, if you believe that you have the ability to spiritually dialog with God, why can't you communicate with angels and saints?

Also, God frequently doesn't communicate directly with humans. He sends angels! Who told Mary that she would be the mother of our Savior? The angel Gabriel. Should Mary and Joseph have been "faithful" to your interpretation and said something like, "Begone, Gabriel, we want to talk with God directly!"?

God communicates through angels...deceased saints appear to Jesus and his Apostles. You've got a tough job: you've got to disprove that the New Testament really happened. The accounts of the Gospels are pretty clear.

Matthew writes:

"You mention God living outside the bounds of time and space. And yet, Jesus said, before he left us, that, "I am with you, even to the end of the age." I serve a Lord who will never leave me nor forsake me. Though he sits upon his throne in heaven, his spirit is physically with me, and he helps me when I pray, "interceding with groans that words cannot express" (Romans). God CAN hear me, even though he is in a very different dimension (as far as we know). He loves me enough to do this for me. So you cannot compare this God with my brother or any other person, living or deceased."

I don't understand. Your logic seems to be, "God will never forsake me, therefore deny that I am part of a community of believers." We know that on a practical level, being around other believers has a positive effect on our lives. Even Jesus encourages us to be around other believers. If you'd like to think about it, maybe we Catholic Christians rely on community pray not only because it is Biblical; but, also because we see that Jesus Christ is alive in them! "Whenever two or three are gathered in my name, there am I [Jesus] in the midst of them." There is a power in community of believers.

I find it ironic that Protestants with their "no intermediary" doctrine forget all about this when a minister lays hands on a believer. It unquestionable that Protestants seek out these ministers as if the ministers had a special connection to the Lord. They, with their small faith, feel that they don't have a connection to the Lord as good as the ministers. This is another funny hypocrisy of many Evangelical Protestants. As luck would have it, a quick reading of the Acts of the Apostles shows that we should rely on eachother in our spiritual journey...it's not something that we should feel ashamed of.

Matthew writes:

"I said, "It would be so easy for the devil or a demon to disquise himself as a saint or even an angel" To this you replied, "According to the Bible, Jesus warned us that the devil would try to disguise himself as Jesus. This doesn't stop me from praying to Jesus." I was wondering if you could give me a chapter and verse where the Bible says this."

Again, our namesake provides the answer.

Matthew 24:23-24 - "Then if any one says to you, 'Lo, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Matthew writes:

"Anyway, Jesus did say that his followers (his sheep) would know his (the shepard's) voice. I know the voice of Jesus. I am able to distinguish it from the voice of temptation or the world or the devil. However, I do not know Mary's voice; Mary is not my shepard. There is no way to distinguish between the voice of a saint and the voice of a very deceptive demon, especially if the message it brings is spiritually or morally sly or ambiguous (read some of the supposed revelations from Mary. Is Rome really "the eternal city?") I know the shepard's voice, so I pray to him, not the other sheep, and certainly not to the wolf.

Matthew, the problem with this statement is that all Protestants nominally confess they hear the voice of Jesus Christ. I'll repeat what I said above, Protestantism defends and denies just about every moral and theological teaching in the Bible. There is even a Protestant sect that believes that snake-handling is a Biblical practice that shows faith in God. If two Protestants both listen to "Jesus" and hear conflicting messages, refer back to Matthew 24. This "guarantee" that each of us knows the voice of Jesus is a bad interpretation of the Bible. It certainly fails the logic test when "personal Jesuses" contradict one-another. Both people may be hearing a "false Christ," and one person must be hearing a "false Christ."

Matthew writes:

"I wrote, "There is no scripture that tells me that we will be able to hear all the prayers of the living while we are in heaven." To this you replied, "This is just an outright false statement. The scriptures do speak of the saints in Heaven. Read the Luke 16:19- 31" This passage speaks of the afterlife (Sheol) before the Resurrection of Jesus. It has nothing to do with praying to saints in heaven."

I already acknowledged my caveats, the fact is that this would have been a prime opportunity to condemn (or deny) the ability to communicate with believers. The Bible did not, and I don't think that this is a coincidence. Other books (including Revelation) are more explicit in denying your position that we should avoid spiritual communication with saints and angels. If God didn't want to communicate with angels and saints, why would the Bible recount stories of people communicating with angels and saints?

Matthew writes:

"I have to conclude now for time's sake, but let me just say this. No saint has ever been given the Godly power of being able to intercept our prayers on their way to God. They are not to be worshipped (only God is) nor prayed to (only God is). Anything else is idolatry, praying and adoring mere spirits."

You are again jumping to conclusions about my beliefs and the teachings of the Catholic Church. Reading my links on my earlier post would have kept you from such a conclusion. Regarding "interception" of prayers, Gabriel was sent by God to Zechariah and Elizabeth. Mary and Joseph communicated with angels. Jesus and the Apostles were present with deceased saints.

Matthew writes:

"You will not lose the community of saints. I will pray for you if you wish. What can I pray for you about (notice I asked...when was the last time St. Anthony asked if he could find something for you?)"

What can you pray for me about? Didn't you read my last message? Look for my "single prayer." :-)

Matthew writes:

"Saints don't talk back. I do. The Lord does too, and he is more than willing and able to help you."

Why should I use you as an intermediary? According to your incorrect interpretation, I should never expect that another believer's prayer is worth a hill of beans. This interpretation is, of course, un-Biblical. I hope that one day you'll open your eyes to this fact.

Regarding your retainer, asking Jesus to better your life by finding your retainer without total commitment to His will is also idolotry! It's only by a total subjugation of our worldly needs and possessions (including our bodies) to our life in Christ that we may ask for material blessings to help use be His instruments. If you thanked Jesus without saying, "Now I can serve you better," you are too attached to your worldly possessions. I pray that you'll continue to detach yourself from your need for possessions--even your retainer.

I've already been clear about my relationship with Jesus. You needn't give me elementary advice like "the Lord is willing and able to help." You seem to be jumping to incorrect conclusions about the role of saints in my life. Before you make conclusions about my own pray life, why don't you ask me how I pray? Reading my last post will give you a hint.

In Christ,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 30, 2002.

Aside: even if Jesus was being literal when talking about the bread being him, that was bread, not a wafer. Is the wafer symbolic of that bread?

Aside: Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (John 14:16). He is not God and Man today, wafer-God-and-man tomorrow.

Mateo, you said, "Oh boy...well, you are once again misstating fact. Yes, I agree that we don't worship the saints (including Mary). We do worship the Holy Eucharist! Jesus is the Holy Eucharist. If you have a problem with the Church teachings (consistant for 2000 years and totally Biblical), then start a new thread...better yet, read the old threads, or read this and this."

Just so you know, I did start a thread like this a while back. It was deleted by the Moderator. Apparently she didn't like non- Catholics answering Catholic's questions, because that was exactly what was going on. If this forum is supposed to encourage ignorance and a one-sided flow of information, it would be beneficial to state that in a disclaimer. Or is the fact that it is entitled "Catholic" supposed to be enough?

Mateo, you wrote a lot, and I have already answered (I thought) many of your questions. Please, if you would like to continue our discussion, I will post more later tonight. I ought to let you know, however, that I will be hard-pressed for time, as I have my senior prom coming up tomorrow as well as Graduation on the ninth.

Before I go...

Regarding the snake on a pole: That was a special case, prescribed by the Lord. Moses was commanded by the Lord himself to construct such an image. However, no one ever bowed to this or revered it or worshipped it. It was really more of a trust issue. If the people had faith enough in the Lord to do what he said, and look up at the snake, they would be healed. Anyway, that example is not valid anyway. You do not venerate snakes on poles. The Catholic church venerates statues and images of saints and holy men and women. Did you know that, when the Roman Catholic Church came to power, the old Roman gods and goddesses were placed on different pedestals and called "saints?" The Peter in the Vatican Museum is none other than good ol' Jupiter. Why would you want an ancient idol, with a new name slapped on it, in a sanctuary of the Lord. We both know what the Lord says about idols.

When the Lord was preparing the Israelites for entry into the Promised Land, he reminded them that all the time he had been leading their nation, never once had they seen an image of him. He then admonished them not to constuct any image of himself. For to do so would have been idolatry. Why then are statues of "Jesus" venerated and displayed?

Remember, when Moses brought down the Ten Commandments from the mountain, he was outraged. Why was this? The people of God, the Israelites, were celebrating and worshipping an image of a golden calf. Was this calf supposed to represent some false god or "Godde" (Joan?)? No, in fact Aaron told the people,

Exodus 32:4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, [ 32:4 Or [ This is your god ] ; also in verse ] O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."

The calf was made to represent the Lord. It was merely a sybol, an icon, a medium of worship (or if you are Eastern Orthodox, a window to heaven). That didn't matter. The thing was detestable in the Lord's eyes. You merely have to read Exodus 32 to see God's fury over such a deed. No images, that's the second commandment.

Do you see where I am coming from, friend?

-- Matthew (MagnificentExtravaganza@yahoo.com), May 30, 2002.

Matthew writes:

"Aside: even if Jesus was being literal when talking about the bread being him, that was bread, not a wafer. Is the wafer symbolic of that bread?

Aside: Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (John 14:16). He is not God and Man today, wafer-God-and-man tomorrow."

Nice way to belittle Jesus Christ at the Last Supper. Here, you're not showing Christian charity towards my Christian faith. Anyway, the Holy Eucharist is made out of bread. The fact that it doesn't look like "Wonder Bread" may have something to do with the fact that Middle Easterners didn't have "Wonder Bread" that they bought from supermarkets.

Matthew writes:

"Just so you know, I did start a thread like this a while back. It was deleted by the Moderator. Apparently she didn't like non- Catholics answering Catholic's questions, because that was exactly what was going on. If this forum is supposed to encourage ignorance and a one-sided flow of information, it would be beneficial to state that in a disclaimer. Or is the fact that it is entitled "Catholic" supposed to be enough?"

There are plenty of threads that discuss the Real Presence...something that Christianity has believed in since the time of the Apostles. I don't think that the moderator would remove such a post simply because it threatened our theology. That's the kind of question that most apologists eat for breakfast.

Matthew writes:

"Mateo, you wrote a lot, and I have already answered (I thought) many of your questions. Please, if you would like to continue our discussion, I will post more later tonight. I ought to let you know, however, that I will be hard-pressed for time, as I have my senior prom coming up tomorrow as well as Graduation on the ninth."

I was simply responding to you, if I missed something that you wrote, feel free to point it out.

Matthew writes:

"Regarding the snake on a pole: That was a special case, prescribed by the Lord. Moses was commanded by the Lord himself to construct such an image. However, no one ever bowed to this or revered it or worshipped it. It was really more of a trust issue. If the people had faith enough in the Lord to do what he said, and look up at the snake, they would be healed. Anyway, that example is not valid anyway. You do not venerate snakes on poles. The Catholic church venerates statues and images of saints and holy men and women. Did you know that, when the Roman Catholic Church came to power, the old Roman gods and goddesses were placed on different pedestals and called "saints?" The Peter in the Vatican Museum is none other than good ol' Jupiter. Why would you want an ancient idol, with a new name slapped on it, in a sanctuary of the Lord. We both know what the Lord says about idols."

Oh no! Not the Pagan influence thing again! OK, today is Thursday...that's "Thor's Day," which shows the Norse culture's pagan influence on us. Pagan influence is such a funny thing... I guess since the US Congress is housed in the Capitol (this word refers to the temple of Jupiter), should we protest the US government for it's pagan influence? So both the Vatican and the legislature of the US government are secretly under the control of Jupiter! LOL :-)

Honestly, Matthew, I'm glad that you have come to this forum. It sounds as if a lot of non-Catholics have been telling you falsehoods/distortions about Catholics. You are right in "going to the horse's mouth." I think you'd agree that it would be unfair of me to rely on Jews if I wanted to know what Protestants believe. I should go to Protestants, right? Well, thanks, anyways.

Matthew writes:

"When the Lord was preparing the Israelites for entry into the Promised Land, he reminded them that all the time he had been leading their nation, never once had they seen an image of him. He then admonished them not to constuct any image of himself. For to do so would have been idolatry. Why then are statues of "Jesus" venerated and displayed?"

Would you also condemn cartoons for Children (and movies for adults) that chronicle the life of Jesus? They also contain images of Jesus. This is actually not such a strange question, because literalist Protestants used to reject these things based on the same "graven images" logic. If we really took the literalist view, I don't think that Protestant bookstores/media shops would be much more than Bible distributors.

Matthew writes:

Remember, when Moses brought down the Ten Commandments from the mountain, he was outraged. Why was this? The people of God, the Israelites, were celebrating and worshipping an image of a golden calf. Was this calf supposed to represent some false god or "Godde" (Joan?)? No, in fact Aaron told the people,

Exodus 32:4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, [ 32:4 Or [ This is your god ] ; also in verse ] O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."

The calf was made to represent the Lord. It was merely a sybol, an icon, a medium of worship (or if you are Eastern Orthodox, a window to heaven). That didn't matter. The thing was detestable in the Lord's eyes. You merely have to read Exodus 32 to see God's fury over such a deed. No images, that's the second commandment."

Again, this is wrong, the calf was not a "symbol" of Yahweh. I'd say that you might be right: the calf might have been "godde," except for one problem--"godde" is a female, while the golden calf was actually a bull. According to scholars, the calf was the footstool of an unseen deity.

This is supported by Exodus 32:1 (quoting from the Protestant RSV) -

"When the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain, the people gathered themselves together to Aaron, and said to him, "Up, make us gods, who shall go before us; as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him."

But this is getting away from the fact that the Bible speaks of numerous uses of physical things (statues, temples, symbols) as licit instruments for communicating with God. This holds true, even as idolotry is forbidden by Jesus Christ and His Church. I just don't get the impression that you have a real good understanding of what idolotry is.

Even the waters of Baptism are not "God," yet they are a means for giving us God's sacramental grace.

Matthew writes:

"I ought to let you know, however, that I will be hard-pressed for time, as I have my senior prom coming up tomorrow as well as Graduation on the ninth."

Understandable...I wish you well for your graduation. Also, you're not going to be dancing at your prom, are you? :-)

On a serious note, I'm glad you take your spiritual life so seriously. That's a wonderful quality in you.

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 30, 2002.

Dear Matthew,

Congratulations on your upcoming graduation!

I am not as knowledgeable as Mateo, or some of the others here to answer your questions about the saints. I think Mateo covered everything one needs to know. I knew all that, but would not be able to word as exact and articulate as Mateo did! :)

Simply put, I asked a priest once why we pray to sains and not directly to Jesus and he said, "You can always pray directly to Jesus, however, when we pray to the saints, we are asking them for a little extra help. The saints lived 'extraordinarily holy' lives and made extraordinary sacrifices for God - in fact, many were marytrs, therefore are looked at with much favor by God.

God has blessed these very holy and obedient people with special graces and miracles are performed by them, and have been proven, documented...there are times I pray directly to Jesus and there are times I ask for their very powerful intercession - a little extra help along the way. MaryLu :)

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 30, 2002.

Dear Matthew,

Congratulations on your upcoming graduation!

I am not as knowledgeable as Mateo, or some of the others here to answer your questions about the saints. I think Mateo covered everything one needs to know. I knew all that, but would not be able to word as exact and articulate as Mateo did! :)

Simply put, I asked a priest once why we pray to sains and not directly to Jesus and he said, "You can always pray directly to Jesus, however, when we pray to the saints, we are asking them for a little extra help. The saints lived 'extraordinarily holy' lives and made extraordinary sacrifices for God - in fact, many were marytrs, therefore are looked at with much favor by God.

God has blessed these very holy and obedient people with special graces and miracles are performed by them, and have been proven, documented...there are times I pray directly to Jesus and there are times I ask for their very powerful intercession - a little extra help along the way.

Also, the saints were so obedient to God, saying yes to his call, many were converted from their evil ways to their extraordinary holy lives - they lived for God and God only. They are very good spiritual guides, we can look up to the saints and learn from them how to live our lives. That is how I see it. MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 30, 2002.

More on intercession of departed saints from EWTN.

"The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ?the saints?for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans?meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth?it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.

Can They Hear Us?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

One Mediator

Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ?s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a meditor. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesites) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19?20).

The intercession of fellow Christians?which is what the saints in heaven are?also clearly does not interfere with Christ?s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1?4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ?s role as mediator.

"No Contact with the dead"

Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10?11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it?for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren?him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10?15).

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God?s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother?s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I?m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one?s behalf.

Overlooking the Obvious

Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:

"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?

"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.

"How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?" (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).

If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.

Further, the Bible indicates that the glorified human intellect enjoyed by the saints in heaven has a phenomenal ability to process information, dwarfing anything we are capable of in this life. This is shown by the fact that, on Judgment Day, we will review every act of our lives. But since Judgment Day is not going to take eighty years to review the events of an eighty year life (if it takes any time at all), our intellects will be able to process enormous amounts of information and experience once freed from the confines of this mortal life. And not only will we be aware of the events of our own lives, but of the lives of those around us on Judgment Day as well, for Christ stated that all our acts will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2?3).

This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God?s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner?s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King?s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.

The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed?s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.

"Directly to Jesus"

Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. "Why not pray directly to Jesus?" they ask.

The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1?4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30?32, Eph. 6:18?20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person?s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15?18, Mark 9:17?29, Luke 8:49?55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16?18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God?s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13?14). That?s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.

In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.

In Heaven and On Earth

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren?t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth."

Thanks, EWTN.

Enjoy,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), June 12, 2002.