I have a weird land problem/question ...

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In a nutshell ...

Our family bought this place over 30 years ago. The people who built our house bought the land at least 10 years before we bought the house.

So, for forty years or more the land has not belonged in the family to the north.

The owner to the north is in a nursing home. The heir has been in federal prison for as long as I can remember. He just got paroled.

He hired someone to bulldoze his place, and they are bulldozing on us. He asked the title holder in our family if we cared about having any of our ground bulldozed as the line is in the trees somewhere questionable. We said we didn't care.

About the bulldozing, we don't care. The fire danger here is very high, and we've been trying to clear from our house out with goats -- very slow going. Bulldozing a firebreak is ok.

However, the guy asked the title holder to sell our place to him. Title holder said no, it would go to us. Then the guy asked to buy part of our place. Title holder said we had the last word on that.

Then the guy said the title holder has 24 hours to decide yes or no.

Eh? Forty years or more after the original sale, and he says we have 24 hours to make a choice?

He was in federal custody for swindling.

In your opinion, what is he up to?

-- Anonymous, June 01, 2002

Answers

No good, for sure, Helen.

If the land is valuable, he may want to use it as collateral or in a land swindle -- are any factory CEOs looking to buy out your way? On the plus side, maybe he wants to get married, but the lady told no, unless he had some means.

The 24 hour deadline would raise red flags with me immediately.

-- Anonymous, June 01, 2002


Meemur, as a matter of fact, there are new factories going up in town. Land prices have been skyrocketing for the last three or four years, and the boom is yet to come. Three new factories are building, only none of them have started operating yet.

We know the land is worth a lot of money ... but to us, it's home. Priceless.

-- Anonymous, June 01, 2002


Best I can suggest, not knowing anything else about the situation, is to stall both parties until you have more information. Asking for a decision in 24 hours is unreasonable and smells fishy to me.

-- Anonymous, June 01, 2002

"He was in federal custody for swindling."

Don't need to know any more. Just say No.

-- Anonymous, June 01, 2002


The bull dozer operator is a long time local. He refused to bull doze on us or to touch the old fenceline without my permission to him. He said the guy told him that the property line was w-a-a-a-ay over our fenceline and back on us. He said the guy wanted all that bulldozed.

I believe that's what the guy was trying to buy from us just this morning.

I told the operator bulldozing was ok. He said to be sure to get a survey. He did everything but come right out and tell me the neighbor is not up and up.

Surveys are already on file, they can be re-done, and I'm not worried about where the line is. If the line is wrong, I'm content with whatever the surveyor says.

I just think the guy musta gone a wee bit weird while he was cooped up. Maybe he thinks he can just take what he wants.

-- Anonymous, June 01, 2002



Helen, it might behoove you to be a bit more assertive about the property line: he may want to sell the land to an animal rendering plant or something obnoxious.

-- Anonymous, June 01, 2002

Contact your underwriter company. They have the survey used for the sale when you bought the land.

The house you bought came with land, yes? Never heard of buying a house without the land it is on.

For underwriter companies, the survey has to be ten years or less old, otherwise they would require a new one.

[Having just gone thru that ourselves, you see]

Also, contact your title company. See what they have.

-- Anonymous, June 02, 2002


Absolutely put a new fence in right away on the property line or he could get the land by just using it (brain fried - can't think of the right terms).

I would be very careful dealing with this guy. He also might bill you for what the dozer guy did on your side of the line.

-- Anonymous, June 02, 2002


helen,

Have you found out anything?

I didn't know of anything to help your situation, so haven't responded until now. I'm just wondering how it is going.

apoc

-- Anonymous, June 03, 2002


Helen, I can't even begin to make sense of what is going on here. Perhaps land is handled differently in OK?

You said "we" bought the house, but you are indicating the "title holder" is different. Who are "we", who is the "title holder", and if it isn't clear, what is its relationship to you and your hubby?

Up here, where I thought things were complicated, you buy parcels, and if it isn't a parcel, then it has to be formally subdivided.

And, you sure as hell do it in writing! And have it reviewed by an attorney along the way.

Maybe you need to take a look at the deed and whatever other documents may be relevant.

With the say it is going, I think you need to re-establish something very quickly along the property boundary, and send something certified mail to him about where thing stand. Has he filed for any permits at town hall which would give you a better idea what he has in mind?

-- Anonymous, June 03, 2002



Make that..."with the WAY it is going"...

-- Anonymous, June 03, 2002

I spent the weekend in hell.

Lurking in the woods. Being eaten alive by insects and arachnids.

He told them he owned our land and to bulldoze it to a huge extent. I told them he was not only mistaken about that, but that he had caused them to bulldoze several acres of our ground before they even asked me anything about it. I reminded them that the man had stated several times he didn't know where the line was. I showed them the survey markers out there. The operators walked off the job.

He continues even today to insist that we will sell him our land. Today he insisted I show him the survey line that his family paid for a few years ago. The line is way over back toward his side, and he has bulldozed much ground that belongs to us. Then he announced the surveyor wasn't certified. I smiled and suggested he get another one that is. Sweetness and light.

I will not fight over a line. However, I will pay for my own survey. He can pay someone, I can pay someone. The surveys will match or we will go to court. Our surveyor will come from our bank.

Don't think I'm capitulating. Once the line is made, I expect him to move the markers. So, as they survey, I will make GPS notations for each survey mark. I will pay extra to have the surveyors themselves take GPS readings at every mark.

I have tick bites in places that require visiting a bathroom stall before scratching and a confessional booth afterward. I don't know if having ticks where I've had them qualifies as sodomy or beastiality. I have swallowed spiders, been bitten painfully by God- knows-what all over, and I think I cracked my leg.

But I stopped the dozers.

Now, can you help me with another problem?

There is an ancient fallling down remnant of a fence that wouldn't keep any type of animal in. It is missing in several places. It is at least 50 feet inside the surveyed line at the narrowest point.

If he tries to invoke the seven-year fence rule to take our ground beyond the old fence, how do I fight it?

The law is something like if you don't fight over a fence for seven years, then it's the new property line. But, this fence is a straight line going nowhere. It's out in the woods, incomplete, and several feet-to-yards away from his property.

-- Anonymous, June 03, 2002


Frankly helen, it ain't any of his damn business where you have [or don't have] a fence on your land.

who is the title holder? A member of your family? A member of your SO's family? A financial institution? Who? This is a big mystery that is confusing several of us.

And as far as the seven year rule, screw that. You've been there 30 years, you said. Where does 7 years enter into it?

Definitely do the survey, and the GPS. Also, go to the property records office and look up his property to see just who exactly owns it, then check around about loans and liens he may have. Seems to me that someone who just got out of prison wouldn't have money to hire a crew to clear land unless he borrowed it or inherited it. Hmmm, check death records, see if his father died or not. Either way, you sort of indicated you knew where the father was living in a home. Call there and see if he is still there. See if you can find out who his attorney is. Talk to his attorney.

Get used to ticks and bugs. Buy some spray. You're gonna be out there a lot in the coming days and months. Get a hat, too. And film for your camera.

-- Anonymous, June 04, 2002


GPS is a beautiful thing. The idea is to have a line that can be easily and accurately re-established in the field, and GPS makes it so much easier these days.

In Massachusetts, I think it is called "adverse possession", and I think it is a much longer period than 7 years, but I could be wrong and it may be a state by state matter. Also, I don't associate it with fencing, but rather with use and maintenance. What has been happening on the far side of that fence? Do you visit there occasionally? Do anything to maintain it? These should be fairly easily answerable common law issues in your state.

-- Anonymous, June 04, 2002


What Barefoot said! I know that you'd like to just have this be over, but this guy has an Agenda with a capital A. I'm sorry that I don't have any specific insights into what is motivating him, but whatever it is seems to be eating at him in the way the ticks ate at you. Keep on the alert. I hope you have some answers, soon!

-- Anonymous, June 04, 2002


Found the following snippets about adverse possession in Oklahoma. (Of course, it's worth what you paid me for it, right?):

"...The Oklahoma law, called Adverse Possession, allows this land to be claimed by the neighboring owner if the boundary is not challenged within 15 years..."

http://www.swtimes.com/archive/2002/March/21/news/land_bill.html

"...In your case it sounds like your sister is claiming that she owns the property by virtue of some sort of adverse possession since she has lived there for 15 years.

In order to prove adverse possession she must prove that her occupation was open, exclusive, hostile and adverse to the title to the true owner - and that she held the same under some color of title for a statutory length of time - In Okl homa it is 15 years - other states have adopted different periods of time. Flordia may be 15 years, but you need to check on that.

If your sister lived on the property with the permission of your mother then her occupation was not adverse and she should not prevail in a suit brought on those grounds..."

http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Office/6432/letters.html

"FENCE. The disputed land was located on an island created by two forks of a river. When the parties’ predecessors in interest owned the properties, the island was swamp land. The plaintiff’s predecessor in interest constructed a fence on the bank of the southern fork of the river to prevent cattle from reaching the swamp land. When the plaintiff and defendant purchased their neighboring properties, the island had become dry land. The island was included in the plaintiff’s title description but the plaintiff’s predecessor did not use the land because it was too wet. The defendant was told that the fence was the true boundary between the properties but the plaintiff believed that the fence existed only because of its historical use. The defendant argued that the open possession and use of the disputed land for many years established title by adverse possession. The plaintiff argued that the fence was merely a fence of convenience and could not be the basis of title by adverse possession. The trial court had granted the defendant summary judgment on the issue but the appellate court reversed, holding that the plaintiff had provided enough evidence of the existence of the fence of convenience to require a trial on the issue. Hovendick v. Ruby, 10 P.3d 1119 (Wyo. 2000)."

http://www.agrilawpress.com/sample.htm

-- Anonymous, June 04, 2002


I believe it ties into the following Oklahoma statute:

Secton 12-93:

Actions for the recovery of real property, or for the determination of any adverse right or interest therein, can only be brought within the periods hereinafter prescribed, after the cause of action shall have accrued, and at no other time thereafter: . . . 4) An action for the recovery of real property not hereinbefore provided for, within fifteen (15) years.

-- Anonymous, June 04, 2002


I don't think it applies. Until this jerk was paroled, helen was living on her land, the old guy was living on his, and the property line was where it was the whole time.

Now that this jerk is paroled he started something, helen stepped in, and so there is no adverse possession since helen is aware of actions on her property and has expressed her possession immediately.

If, on the other hand, helen had not done anything about it and the jerk had taken over the land and used it for 15 years without objection from the true title holder, then it would come into play.

this is only from reading what is posted above. I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on tv.

-- Anonymous, June 04, 2002


I need you guys.

My mom owns our land. We are planning to buy the land in two years when she retires. We had planned to have the boundary re-surveyed at our own expense at that time, and then build a proper fence.

This guy's mom owns his land, but she most likely either gave him power of attorney or put him in a trust arrangement with her.

During his visit he was rude, demanding, and pushy on my own ground. He insisted that we didn't "need" the land. I kept telling him he had to deal with my momma, as I do not yet own it. She's already told him no several times to the land sale. Sweetness and light, sweetness and light.

We have some help arriving tomorrow. I don't think adverse possession will count, unless he tries to count bulldozing it -- but I went up there and made them back off the day they crossed the line. They are decent local guys who just bulldoze for a living, not in on some plot with this guy.

I have talked to a bank, abstract company, and surveyor. He lied when he stated the survey his mother paid for was done by an "uncertified" surveyor. There is no such thing. Anyone caught surveying without a state license will be subject to criminal charges.

We've got people looking for the surveyor. It's possible a potential buyer actually paid for it before backing out of the deal -- they tried to sell their land for several years, a matter of record with every real estate company around here. The agent would work to find buyers, and they always backed out of the sale. A real estate agent may know.

I appreciate all the input. I would never have bothered this guy if he hadn't been in my face before he even announced his return. He had already had our ground bulldozed before we got up that morning. He keeps assuring me that he isn't going to do anything with his side -- he just wants his side AND ours. Uh huh.

In literature, there is a characterization called "grasping". This is a grasping man.

-- Anonymous, June 04, 2002


Helen, I have been so busy, I am just now reading this..wow, I sure hope you can nip this..I really think he is screwing you over this somehow. I agree, buy bug-off and camera and film..and STOP HIS Shenaigans now!

I will think on this, and see if anything comes to me on it.

-- Anonymous, June 04, 2002


Call your local Bar Association Lawyer Referral Service. Very often the 30-minute consultation is free. You could also check with a friendly clerk at City Hall, maybe in the zoning department? How about your county representative? They very often are familiar with local real estate law and might be willing to help or advise you. And if it costs you a little more for the lawyer, hey, it's worth the trouble and aggravation it will save. Trust an old paralegal who often saw tiny things grow into life-consuming problems. Sometimes these things can onlybe nipped in the bud when someone gets a back-off letter on an impressive letterhead. If nothing else, it will be an OFFICIAL record that you knew of the problem and told him to bugger off.

-- Anonymous, June 05, 2002

I would certainly consult with a lawyer because you might want to sue him to "fix" the ground on your side that he had bulldozed. You might check with the county attorney about criminal charges as well.

-- Anonymous, June 05, 2002

Any chance he's on parole? If so, his p.o. might want to know about this.

-- Anonymous, June 05, 2002

LOL BrookS! that's sneaky!

I bet the guy has mentioned something about his plans to the dudes with the bulldozer...

-- Anonymous, June 05, 2002


How do I find out if he's on parole and who his parole officer is? He just got out of federal prison not long ago, although I don't know the exact date. Is there a public database on paroles?

-- Anonymous, June 05, 2002

Just be bald-faced--call up the parole office and say, "I'd like to speak to Joe Blow's parole officer." They'll either say they don't have a parolee by that name or they'll connect you with his parole officer. I guess.

-- Anonymous, June 05, 2002

If he served his whole sentence, he wouldn't have a parole officer, would he? The police or sherrif would know, or at least know who to call to find out.

I expect you will save the bill for the grass you are planting to show that you are 'using' the land in question, right?

-- Anonymous, June 06, 2002


The dozer came back onto our land Thursday morning. If he had waited 45 minutes later, he would have started after we left the house and finished the dirty deed before we got home from work. I ran up there to stop him, and could see him quite plainly from my orchard a few yards from my house.

The dozer operator said he had instructions from the man, who had assured him that my mother had given consent.

The operator of the dozer is known to be honest, although he does not impress me with his listening skills. However, in my haste to get him to stop dozing, I waved my arms and yelled things like "the guy is a liar -- you never had permission", "he doesn't know where the survey line is because he's been in federal prison for the last 20 years or most of it" and "he's a thief -- he went to prison for taking investors money and the FCC got involved and he went to federal prison for it".

The operator asked why I hadn't mentioned these facts before, and I reminded him that he promised he wouldn't doze on our side of the property, that he himself had advised a survey of our own ASAP, and that I had taken him at his word he would not doze any more. I had believed it was unnecessary to go into details on the guy's background before that. My mother says I can be sued for telling it, but I got the info from the guy's own mother, it's true, and anyway, I'm a turnip. Squeeze me, you'll get pee and little else. :)

The dozer guy said the man had told him that my mother had given permission. I reminded him that he himself had never talked to my mother, and that he could have knocked on my door and asked to borrow the phone first. I reminded him that I had tried to give him my mother's phone number the last time I got him to stop dozing, and he had refused it on the grounds he wouldn't doze anymore anyway. He looked kinda funny-sick at that point. (My cousin the retired federal judge says the dozer operator may be sued freely for doing anything without my mother's permission, particulary so many yards inside our line.)

Then my husband got there and told him that there was a survey marker well past where he was dozing, and back the other way: ie, he was dozing on our property without permission.

The dozer operator walked into the woods in the direction of the survey line and found the marker himself without instructions from us. At that point, he vowed he would never work for that man again. He put some broken trees into the path he'd been dozing at my request, because at this point anyone could drive from the highway to my back door unseen by anyone.

As of tonight, Saturday, no more dozing has taken place. We have an appointment with a lawyer and a surveyor of such local good repute that we were advised by everyone asked that this surveyor's word is law.

I spent this entire weekend taking video tape and still pictures of every marker all the way to the bulldozed area and back. There the markers stop, but my husband and I know where they went. By following the same line as the remaining markers, we come out on the highway exactly where we used to see the markers.

One more little note:

Last Monday the guy brought his mother with him to my house to try to talk me into selling the land -- and we don't own it yet. She said, "You don't need it and we do." She also referred to the coming Thursday as a date her son would be "back". Thursday was when the dozing recommenced.

We got curious and took a little walk Thursday night. Their side is over 80 acres, we believe. Why would they need one third of our small farm?

They're subdividing the land into lots, that's why. There is a place in the middle where building a road will be very expensive, and an easier way in is through our place. Mind you, we don't block his access, it's just going to be cheaper for him to take our land than it would be to build a good road on his place.

He may have decided to use the seven or fifteen-year fence rule to take what he wanted, but there was a problem: there is wire strung through trees on his side of the property, and that wire joined our wire in an L-shape. If he used that rule on us, we could use that rule on him and take some of his land. Must have rankled him. Anway, just as I got the bull dozer stopped, the dozer had carefully taken out the point where the wire connected.

He was going to leave our wire, making it a possible border, and take out his wire, which would prevent us from taking any of his land.

I have pictures, video tapes, a lawyer, a surveyor. I have a legal document online about an appellate court case that this guy testified in in a certain named capacity at that particular prison, so this is at least one bit of evidence that his prison history is public record.

Any further suggestions?

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2002


Just keep an eye on the area. If possible, get the sherrif or the cops to patrol around. Tell them what's going on and that you don't trust the guy not to do something petty and possibly illegal to you or your property.

Glad you caught the dozer dude!

keep us informed. I have a feeling you may be able to get some money out of this.

-- Anonymous, June 09, 2002


Oh yeah, about his prison history. It is public info because he wasn't a minor.

juvenile records are often sealed when the child reaches majority. Not so with adults, I guess because it's obvious they never will. heh heh

-- Anonymous, June 09, 2002


Hi, lurker here. I have to ask, why haven't you called the sheriff? I would think that would put a stop to the bulldozing, and fast.

If they are planning to subdivide their property, wouldn't they have to go through the zoning board? (maybe it's different where you live?) If you start something like that where I live without permission, they may not give you the permit.

I wish you the best of luck. If it were me, I would be chewing nails and spitting tacks!

-- Anonymous, June 12, 2002


Greetings, bugstabber.

Subdivision is a major process, and in this case would require extensive forgery (and probably notarization) of the documents that would have to be recorded at the registry of deeds.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002


it's not like he doesn't know how to do that, ya know. LOL

f he isn't going to farm it, I wonder what other uses he could have for it that would require her land.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002


Exhaustion...

Out here there are no restrictions on building. That means he can parcel his land out, and the new owner(s) may build a canvas-and- plywood shack and crap into an open hole. It would increase the value of our place if actual homebuilders bought his parcels...he has million-dollar views on his place.

He wants our land for a third access point. We don't block his access to his own land, and therefore he may not take ours on those grounds. What he wants, we're pretty sure, is yet another outlet to the highway. I have a lawyer, the surveyor is scheduled, so now we wait. Oddly, no further dozing has taken place. And he hasn't bugged us either. Very odd. Something's up.

I wait with calmer mind. Whatever is supposed to happen will happen. Worst case senario is he gets a dozer to strip us bare to the highway -- he said he wanted to doze away all the trees in front of our house (definitely our land and not his) and seemed puzzled at our protests. Luckily, I have rooting hormone and lots of volunteer flowering trees and shrubs. It would take five years to undo the worst of the damage should this occur, yet we can and will recover if it does.

Remind me of this if he actually goes through with it ...

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002


1. He can't take your land.

2. He can't bulldoze your trees between your house and the highway.

This guy is Nuts with a capital Idiot! I can just imagine the noise level from the highway you would have if the trees were gone, not to mention the pollution!

Maybe you should consider getting a restraining order or something to keep this idiot away from you and yours unless he makes an appointment with your lawyer.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2002


Once we have the property line firmly established, we're probably going to ask him to come stand out in the woods with us and explain exactly what he wants and why. If it isn't too weird, we'll probably work with him. He could have gotten a lot more cooperation in the beginning if he had just talked to us before he started messing with us.

His contention that his boundary with us is mis-marked is most likely not true. He said the boundary was laid out by an "uncertified" surveyor. Several sources have told me that surveying without a license is illegal, and there is no such thing as an "uncertified" surveyor.

His boundary was surveyed to his north with the same type of markers at the same time his southern boundary was surveyed -- the markers are what we base our contention on that he's bulldozing our land. He isn't pushing on the large land holders to his north, because they are very old families with a lot of influence here. He wouldn't get it. I think we can protect our own land ... and if he bulldozes on land that turns out to be ours, he'll have to pay to reforest it.

This has been odd, strange, tiring, and worrisome.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2002


and annoying!

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2002

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