Music -- Protestant vs. Catholic

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Hi Everyone:

I have come to LOVE the Catholic hymns we sing at Mass. I have heard some negative comments on some in the threads about "Protestant" music.

Some of my favorite 'contempary' music comes from Protestant musicians (since that's my background). Anyway, I would like to use my singing skills at Mass, but I am feeling a little insecure about what song to sing.

First of all, is that appropriate to even ask whether I could sing a special song, perhaps at the beginning of Mass, or at the end?

Here's one of my favorite 'contemporary hymns' Would you guys give me some feedback, PLEASE? I feel the words are rich, deep, and meaningful. The melody is breathtaking! I wish you could hear it. It is the MOST BEAUTIFUL song I have ever heard!

Be Unto Your Name

We are a moment, you are forever, Lord of the Ages, God before Time We are a vapor, you are eternal, Love everlasting, reigning on High

We are the broken, You are the healer, Jesus Redeemer, Mighty to Save You are the love song, we'll sing forever, bowing before you, Blessing your name

Chorus:

Holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Worthy is the Lamb who was slain Highest praises, honor and glory, Be unto your Name, Be unto your name

Words and Music by Robin Mark, "Revival in Belfast"

THANKS A BUNCH,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 25, 2002

Answers

Dear Gail,

First of all, I think that if this song helps you to move closer to Christ Jesus and inspires you to love and serve Him more and more, then it is a beautiful song, no matter where it came from. (I feel the same way about "Amazing Grace"! :-) )

Second, as for singing it at Mass, that's really ultimately up to your pastor. If he says it's okay, then go for it! If not, then just sing it after/outside of Mass, perhaps during your prayer time or when you're hanging out with friends, and give thanks to God for the love of music which He's given to you.

Take care and may God bless you!

Love, :-)

-- Christine Lehman (christinelehman@hotmail.com), June 25, 2002.


Thanks Christine! I will take your advice! Worship is my all- consuming passion -- that's why I love Catholic Mass SOOO MUCH!

I've thought about working at the Parish school, perhaps with children, and teaching worship.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 25, 2002.


Gail,

Cool song, I like it, but of course no music :(

Usually the songs at mass are at least run by the priest or music director, at least I think they are. They usually appear in the bullitin at our Church, so they are planned. There are traditional Protestant songs which Catholics use all the time. They are simply prayers put to music. All Christians pray similar in terms of words used. Obviously, there are some differences.

I listen to contemporary Christian music stations in Tennsessee, even though I am a Catholic. No problem there. Just know your own faith well enough. Today I prefer to listen to this one commercial free station from a Protestant University. There is a good one on-line too at www.klove.com, need headphones, good station.

I like the bands FFH, News Boys, Rebecca St. James, but also most anything they play on that station I like. Compared to secular radio, the Christian stations are a God send. The lyrics are clean, and the commercials, if any, are infrequent and clean also. There are no Catholic stations where I live. When I lived in Detroit, there were also several Protestant stations and only one part time Catholic station. Pathetic effort on the part of Catholics unfortunately. Gail, you could start a Catholic radio station!

Keep singing, Psalm 30 "My soul sings Psalms to you unceasingly"

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), June 25, 2002.


Thanks a bunch, Mike!

That song I mentioned is off of THE MOST powerful worship CD I have ever heard. It never fails to push me to my knees weeping like a baby before the Lord. It's interesting the CD was recorded LIVE in Ireland with Protestants AND Catholics worshipping TOGETHER -- OH, THE HEALING POWER OF GOD! May God HEAL Ireland.

God Bless you,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 25, 2002.


Hi all,

One of my favorites is Ave Maria. We have a young man in our Church who sings this so beautifully, it moves me everytime.

Gail, I hope you have the chance to sing in your Church. I am sure you have a beautiful voice.

Just my two cents!!

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), June 25, 2002.



Thank you, Kathy. I appreciate the encouragement!

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 25, 2002.

Hi Gail,

I never classify religious music in that way (Catholic vs. Protestant)- -religious music is religious music to me. To be honest, I never thought about it one way or the other.

Now, as to "contemporary", are you referring to music style (slow organ music vs. rock and roll) or recently written music vs. music written centuries ago? I think a lot of the older music contains beautiful imagery that a lot of today's music doesn't have.

My favorite religious music is 1)understandable, 2)singable by anyone, and 3)recognizable as being of a religious nature (not like some Amy Grant music, to use an example).

As to favorite hymns, I like Alleluia, Alleluia, Let the Holy Anthem Rise, and Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence (kind of a neat spooky melody as well).

Least Favorite: Amazing Grace, but that is probably because, like the national anthem, it is often sung very badly in public (too many creative embellishments from someone trying to be cute).

I think your pastor would be very happy to have you sing the song you mentioned, and you might want to use it during Communion--ever since the change to Communion in the hand, a lot of people just don't bother bringing hymnals up with them any more, so it is not as critical that they sing along with you.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), June 25, 2002.


Kathy

AVE MARIA (Hail Mary) in a Congregational Church? Now that is a new one to me. You do realize that it is almost the same thing as saying a Rosary. I am surprised to hear of this but not shocked as there have been some Protestant religions who have given respect to Mary, Our Spiritual Mother, of The Church and The Holy Mother of GOD, Jesus Christ. WOW.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 25, 2002.


Gail, there is plenty of music, Catholic and Protestant that is beautiful and inspiring and even doctrinally correct that is not litugical. At one extreme, rock music doesn't belong in church. Gregorian chant does. All the in between stuff? I for one am probably a musical snob, but I don't believe most of the "Glory and PRaise" stuff is very good church music. Maybe nice for singing around a campfire, but not in a church. "Let There Be Peace on Earth" is another great folk song, not a church song. I'll probably offend many here by saying that, but that's what I believe.

Fred, I've always thought it funny that at least around here,(in Connecticut) it's very often the case that you see great settings of the Mass and other liturgical music by the great masters (Faure, Schubert, Beethoven, Dvorak) done in protestant,especially Congregationsl churches! And rarely in Catholic churches, where they belong!

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), June 25, 2002.


We have the singing of the Ave Marias by several vocalists here and it is so relaxing to hear them. Bocelli and Pavorotti to name a couple of them. The Gregorian Chants are some i have yet to find. my Daughter has a disc with them and they are so refreshing.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 25, 2002.



"At one extreme, rock music doesn't belong in church."

Christina could you please define *rock* music for me and tell me why it has no place at Mass, clearly it cannot just be the volume as some rock music is as delicate and fragile a sound as you will ever hear. Is there a papal order banning rock music or is it just your interpretation? Thanks Courtenay

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), June 25, 2002.


Dear Gail,

Most churches have a music ministry and they are always looking for volunteers - at least in my church they are. We have a music director and a vocalist in addition to the choir.

We certainly could use a vocalist...they are not available for all of the masses.

As was suggested, talk to your pastor. If God gave you the gift of a beautiful singing voice, what better way to use it for His glory than at Mass? I'm sure your pastor or music director would be delighted to have you.

Let us know how it all works out. MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), June 25, 2002.


Hi Fred,

Bocelli and Pavorotti sing the Ave Maria like no other! I could listen to Bocelli all day and never tire of him.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), June 25, 2002.


Hi Courtenay:

I'm going to jump in here even though your question wasn't directed to me if you don't mind.

I love ALL kinds of music, blues, rock, country, classic, but rock music does NOT have a place in mass, because mass is WORSHIP, and the melodies, lyrics, and musical beats must be conducive to that end.

Music either inspires your spirit upwards towards God, or it inspires your soul outwards toward the world. Worship is a living communicative chanel between your SPIRIT and your maker. That's why soulish beats CANNOT inspire true worship.

It's no prejudice, it's just a fact. Music is SO INCREDIBLY powerful, so influencing. Look, Courtenay, Lucifer was the "Minister of Music" before he fell. He was the "Chief Musician" His beauty was unmatched in heaven. And I believe he has his feet firmly planted in this medium today. Musical beats effect your personality, your mood, your disposition, and your outlook on life. Look at the effects of some "goth" bands on our teens!

But having said all that, THERE IS a place for rock, blues, country whatever, in Christianity, just not in WORSHIP, but rather in concerts, and the like.

I hope that makes sense. It really is NOT a prejudice, and I hope you can see that.

Lots of Love,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 25, 2002.


Thanks, Gail, you said it well. Music for the liturgy should not be "of the world" but rather "otherworldly." I admit, sometimes it's a fine line as to what is liturgical and what isn't. I am of Polish descent, and some Polish parishes have "polka Masses." Now, early in Pope John Paul's pontificate, he made a statement that polka Masses were not to be offered with that music. The question is, what is a polka Mass? There is plenty of Polish folk music that is lovely and pleasant sounding. Not all polkas are loud, boom, crash stuff. The point is, USE MUSIC THAT IS LITURGICAL. Music that lifts your minds and heart to God. None of the "polkas" that I know do that, and none of the "popular" music does, either.

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), June 25, 2002.


A lot of people would classify folk music (think 60's and 70's, and throw in the Missa Bossa Nova as well) as rock and roll, and therefore inappropriate for Mass, but I don't. I miss a lot of those oldies--the first song I learned to play on guitar was "They'll Know We are Christians by Our Love".

Depending upon the skill of the musician, those songs can be played in a respectful manner (and I don't mean boom, chuck, chuck, either) and sound just as beautiful as another song played on a fine organ. Electronic keyboards with synthesizers have also enhanced the enjoyment of music in church. Don't have a harp player? Press the magic button.

Now, on the other hand, if you are talking about "hard rock" with screaming electric guitars, I do agree with you (too noisy for church), but a lot of contemporary Christian music (including much of what is published in Breaking Bread) I think actually falls into the category of "Easy Listening". Not everything has to fall into the AABA (one hymn writing pattern) pattern and be an actual hymn rather than a song. Religious songs are wonderful too!

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), June 25, 2002.


Hi Fred,

Yes, Ave Maria is sung quite often in our Church (Congregational). It is one of my favorites. I play it at home all the time. I like to listen to several different artists sing it.

I think there are alot of similarites between my Church and the Catholic Church. I think the two most significant differences are the heirarchy and the transubstantiation.

This could also be why I can't relate to Gail's Protestant experiences.

The Pastor in my Church concludes his service with a prayer for the healing of the Catholic Church and it's laity. He has been doing this for several weeks now.

I beleive that Ave Maria started out as a prayer (Hail Mary). I think it is the most popular marian prayer going back to around the 5th century. The first part is scriptual the second part is intercessory (sp)?. I think the scripture part comes from two different passages in Luke, and sometime in the 12th century came the intercessory part.

Anyway Fred, we do have love for Mary. But our love for Mary is expressed a little differently. For example, we do not say the Hail Mary Prayer. But we are often referred to as sola scriptua people, and as I said, the first part of the Hail Mary is scriptual. So that might explain your being surprised.

Peace,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), June 25, 2002.


Christina,

You are right about our Music. The only explanation I can think of off hand is the history of our Church. When the puritans fled England on the Mayflower to escape execution, the first Church built in New England was the First Congregational Church. I think our roots are alot closer than people realize to the Catholic Church.

Of course I am speaking of my particular church only, not all protestants as a whole.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), June 25, 2002.


Thank you ladies, Im meant to be making myself scarce but Im still bugging you folks now and then. Hope you dont think Im being difficult or confrontational but Im still a bit confused on this one . There is a natural inclination amongst most “orthodox” Catholics to dismiss modern music as nothing more than a guilty pleasure, of little or no significance certainly in comparison to the beauty and power of a ‘good ol fashioned hymn’.

Me Im not so sure, I dont think its as simple as making blanket statements about how a general style or genre of music defines whether or not it "either inspires your spirit upwards towards God, or it inspires your soul outwards toward the world." For me anyway some *rock* music inspires my spirit towards God.

I know plenty of rock style music (and I most certainly dont mean any of that hideous Christian rock tripe) that brings me personally closer to god, and I can relate to on both an emotional, intellectual and spiritual level at a far, far greater level than most bland hymns I hear at Mass. I too enjoy many of the old hymns but "new age hand clapper" shockers do nothing for me(I don’t know if you get the "I am the Lord of the dance" style singalongs at your parish).

So although rock music brings me closer to God I still don’t think it is appropriate for Mass. But I don’t understand WHY I feel this way. All I can put it down to (and your dismissal of modern music) is PREJUDICE hardly a good basis for justifying something.

Actually Im listening to US hard rockers Pearl jam now… the lyrics are straight out of a 15 year olds poetry book but it’s the music that does it for me, makes me want to reach to God- sometimes

SOMETIMES Large fingers pushing paint. You're god and you've got big hands. Colors blend. The challenges you give man. Seek my part, devote myself. My small self. Like a book amongst the many on a shelf. Sometimes I know, sometimes I rise. Sometimes I fall, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I cringe, sometimes I live. Sometimes I walk, sometimes I kneel. Sometimes I speak of nothing at all. Sometimes I reach to you, dear god.

Please explain to me why rock music cannot be LITURGICAL if it brings people closer to God. What I want to know is why “ soulish beats CANNOT inspire true worship”. Are you saying that all those amazing black Gospel singers are not inspiring true worship? (just had a thought-great gospel singers tend to make great r&b or soul singers- though I don’t know how that helps our discussion!). Don’t mean to rant, Ill shut up and look forward to your reply. With love and Blessings Courtenay

-- (csisherwood@hotmail.com), June 26, 2002.


Good morning all,

I also enjoy Gospel music, it lifts my spirits and makes me feel joyful. We do not have gospel music in our church, but I like listening to it.

I went to a Christian Musical Fest recently and it was so lively. It just makes you feel so full of the Spirit.

I purchased a tape by a Catholic artist, whose name escapes me right now, but he recorded a tape about Our Lady of Quadalupe...it is the story of Juan Diego and the apparition put to music. One side is in Spanish and one side is in English. I don't understand the Spanish side, but love to listen to it.

I will check out the name of the artist later and share his story with you how he left a career in Hollywood to evangalize through his music.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), June 26, 2002.


Hi Courtenay:

Music -- everyone has an opinion, to be sure!

When I say, 'rock' I'm talking about HARD rock, not soft rock, like Pearl Jam, etc. For example, Jars of Clay (Christian band) is soft rock. They use cellos, violins, pianoes, really lovely music. When I say, 'rock' I'm talking about hard driving, electrifying, piercing notes, and pounding drums. You can't hear yourself sing because it is so LOUD. You can't hear yourself even THINK about God. I have been to churches like that (not Catholic) Maybe some people can reach God through that, but I think most CAN'T. Mostly this avenue of worship is a concession to young people to get them involved.

God Bless you,

Gail

P.S. BTW, I love black gospel.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 26, 2002.


Kathy

"Anyway Fred, we do have love for Mary. But our love for Mary is expressed a little differently. For example, we do not say the Hail Mary Prayer. But we are often referred to as sola scriptua people, and as I said, the first part of the Hail Mary is scriptual. So that might explain your being surprised."

Yes and the second half tells us clearly of her Sainthood and that she supports us too in prayers as the Saints do. She is among the first Saints of the Church too. Mary is our Spiritual Mother and has always supported the Church from the very beginnings during her incarnation by GOD. She brought GOD into the world. It is fully there. MOTHER OF GOD. THE WORD INCARNATE. Mary has prayed for us for centuries and it is shown in scripture when she was in prayer in the upper room with the Apostles.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 26, 2002.


Hi Fred,

The second half is an intercession, which is not a common practice in our Church, therefore I assume that is why we do not pray to the saints or to Mary directly, but to Jesus.

As George "Dubbwa" Bush says; "Make no mistake" we do have love for Mary.

By the way Fred, I should probably mention here, that we do pray through intercession, but with the living. We do ask one another to pray for/with us.

I personally do not restrict myself with prayer.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), June 26, 2002.


Hi Kathy:

This issue, about praying to the Saints, is a thorny one to most Protestants. I have a theory about that, and I'd like to see what you think.

No one disputes that the Saints are alive with Jesus, however for some reason, they are now off limits to us because their bodies are dead. The Bible clearly says in numerous passages that the Saints will "rule angels" and the Saints will "reign with Christ." It is a widespread belief amongst Protestants that that ruling and reigning will begin AFTER the 2nd coming, BUT I don't see anywhere in scripture that says that. I have asked some Protestant friends of mine, and NO ONE KNOWS where that idea came from. I bet it ties in with the 'rapture' theology though I can't prove it.

Anyway, if the ruling and reigning has already begun, and in fact began 2000 years ago, that means that the Saints are working right alongside the angels and Jesus NOW! That sort of changes your whole perspective a little, don't you think?

I got out my Thompson Chain reference and did a study on the "ruling and reigning," and I tell you it was so EXCITING to me. It really revolutionized my prayer life, and private worship. NOW I firmly believe that when I worship God alone, I am not REALLY ALONE! When I pray to the Father, or the Lord, or Holy Spirit, I believe my extended family IS involved.

Just a few passages that come to mind is in Hebrews Chap 11, where it says we "are surrounded by so great a company of witnesses," referring to the Saints that go before us. In the greek, "surrounded" literally means to encompass, or encircle.

Secondly, later in Hebrews (I think Chap 11 or 12) it says "we come to the heavenly Jerusalem, to the spirits of dead men made perfect." That passage had always puzzled me.

Thirdly, in Revelations there is a picture of elders with "vials full of incense which are the prayers of the Saints." How'd those prayers get in there?

And lastly, on the Mount of transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus and Jesus told them of His plans. He was inviting them into His plan.

If you look throughout the Old Testament and in the New, Jesus always invites his people into his plans. It's His way! Really, it makes no sense that the Saints would just be numbly floating around totally unaware of what is going on down here. The early church fathers greatly held to the belief that the Saints with the Lord pray fervently for us NOW, in that "the prayers of a righteous man availeth much."

Plus, what sense would it make that they won't reign and rule until the 2nd coming, when the spiritual warfare will be over then, Satan will be finally cast out of our lives for good?

So asking the Saints to help us really is not a big jump in light of what scripture gives us.

What do you think?

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 26, 2002.


Gail

What a beautiful argument you put forward. Nice work. That song sung by both Catholic and Protestant "When the Saints Come Marching In" should be a clue. My wife became a Catholic due to the songs she sang years ago. The Ministers could never break the barriers the songs mentioned between what they taught and sang. The songs always proofed the Catholic theology to be correct.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 26, 2002.


Hi Gail,

A great argument indeed, one that I won't dispute because I don't disagree with you.

Praying to the saints is not a "forbidden" thing within my Church, just isn't a common one.

I however will pray to whomever I want whenever I want. I don't believe we should be restricted in whom we pray to or who we ask to intercede for us. I'll take all the help I can get!! God knows I need it at times! :-)

But again, I agree with you.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), June 26, 2002.


Kathy, maybe you know more than I do about the Congregationalist/Puritans, but I thought the Puritan types were fleeing England because of other things, the "Popery" they thought they saw in the Anglican church.

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), June 26, 2002.

Gail and others,

Even though a variety of contemporary Christian music is good, the music at the Mass is something everyone agrees upon. And it is especially something the priest likes. Plain and simple as that. Other music could be used. Something more hip could be used. Something more chant-like could be used. But you got to please everybody, all ages, and all walks of folks. I do not believe that certain kinds of sounds are more pleasing to God than other kinds of sounds. Some religious folk talk of "sacred music" as if THEY are the ones who really know what God likes. Like they've cornered the market on prayer. That thinking is pretentious.

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), June 26, 2002.


Hi Christina,

I will get back to you tomorrow on this when I have more time. This way I can be more thorough. I will also look further into your "Popery" thoughts.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), June 26, 2002.


Hi Christina,

When King Henry VIII of England broke with Rome and made the Church of England subservient to the English crown, many of his subjects thought he had not gone far enough in reforming the church. These people sometimes called Puritans, wanted a church that was thoroughly reformed in it's worship, governace and outlook.

Some of them tried to purify the English Church from within. Others, known as Separatists, left the state church and formed local groups of believers bound together by mutual covenants. They found warrant for these gathered churches in Matthew 18:20, which says, 'for where two or three come together in my name, there I am with them.'

One of these churches was gathered by covenant in the village of Scrooby in 1606. They met on Sundays in the home of the postmaster, William Brewster, for Bible study and prayer. Such gatherings were banned by British law, which demanded that all subjects of the King belong to the Church of England and no other. When the threat of persecution by English authorities became severe, the little church of Scrooby, led by its pastor John Robinson, fled to Holland.

After a few peaceful and prosperous years in Leiden, the Scrooby congregation made plans to establish a Separatist colony in America. Sailing on the Mayflower from the port of Plymouth, England, in 1620, the 102 voyagers arrived off Cape Cod in late autumn and landed in a harbor they named Plymouth. Before stepping ashore, they drafted an agreement as the basis for the civil government of their colony. This Mayflower Compact was the first written expression in history of a social contract, in which the people agree among themselves to form the state. It can be seen as a civil counterpart to the covenant by which they had formed their church in Scrooby.

These people have been called Pilgrims by later generations of Americans.

In 1629 and 1630, the Pilgrims of Plymouth were joined by a much larger migration of Puritans from England, who founded the city of Boston and other towns and villages which together made up the Massachusetts Bay Colony. These newcomers, led by Governor John Winthrop, were better financed and more numerous than the Pilgrims of Plymouth, and they soon dominated the civil and religious life of Massachusetts and the other New England colonies.

Unlike the settlers of PLymouth, most of the Massachusetts Bay party were non-Separatists. They were Puritans who did not necessarily want to separate from the Church of England. Nevertheless, persecution at home had driven them to a physical, if not spiritual, separation.

Most importantly, the non-Separating Puritans who came to Massachusetts formed their churches in the same way the Scrooby Separatists had formed theirs: by covenanting together, without the aid of king, bishop or synod. Thus, in the decades that followed, New England became filled with Congregational Churches.

I hope this helps answer your question.

Oh, and BTW the information I posted here, is quoted from the NACCC.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), June 27, 2002.


Thanks, Kathy for the history, but I think this further proves my point that historically, Congregationalists/Puritans would not have been performing Catholic settings of Masses! It was too Popish! They didn't even celebrate Christmas! My point was that it is ironic that many concerts of Catholic music are performed at these churches, when ideally, they should be done at a Catholic church, within the context of the Mass for which they were written. Congregationalists and many other protestant groups have much better musical tastes than many Catholics these days!

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), June 28, 2002.

Musical tastes??????? Please explain. Most of the music we use today happens to be Catholic by Nature.

-- Fred Bishop (fcb@heartland.com), June 28, 2002.

Hi Christina,

I can't agree or disagree with you because I haven't been in a Catholic Church for some time now.

Maybe it has just been your experience with the Parishes you've attended?

I am sure someone else here can offer some insight to this.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), June 28, 2002.


Hi Mike,

I find your statment, "And it is especially something the priest likes" amusing (that you intended it to be funny) but because the visiting priest in my church, (the tanner, short-shorts and convertible one) hates music in church!! It drives him crazy and he is always fighting with the choir. We have a great choir, BTW.

He hates one of my favorite songs, "Here I Am Lord." It drives him crazy and he hates "On Eagles Wings."

So, not 'all' priest like the music. :)

MaryLu

-- MaryLU (mlc327@juno.com), June 28, 2002.


MaryLu

I think that priest needs to be sent back to the seminary. He has no right to fight the order of the Mass as he does. It is intended for the people NOT him and his desires.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (fcb@heartland.com), June 28, 2002.


Oh my gosh, Mary Lu, that is horrible!! Are you saying he won't allow musical instruments, or singing, or just that he is always going at it with the musicians/choir?

Gail

P.S. I love that song, "Here I am" too -- been singing it all week!

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 28, 2002.


My late wife LOVED that song too. What is wrong with it?

-- Fred Bishop (fcb@heartland.com), June 28, 2002.

Jmj

Kathy, you wrote to Christina:
"I can't agree or disagree with you because I haven't been in a Catholic Church for some time now. Maybe it has just been your experience with the Parishes you've attended?"

I find that your insight is often remarkable, Kathy. It is exactly as you suspected. In the "Western" tradition of the Catholic Church, the following vary across a great spectrum of options and quality, from parish to parish, from diocese to diocese:
The use of ancient chant, or hymns of recent centuries, or hymns of recent decades ...
The beauty (or lack thereof) of the music chosen ...
The beauty and orthodoxy of the lyrics of the hymns ...
The language of the chants or hymns (both Latin and a modern vernacular being 100% acceptable) ...
The skill with which instrumentalists perform their accompaniment ...
The skill with which cantors and choirs add their part(s).

There are plenty of parishes in which the (elsewhere wildly popular) "Glory and Praise" hymns -- e.g., "Here I Am, Lord" and "On Eagles' Wings" -- have never even once been heard. This is true either by accident (i.e., because the G&P hymnal has never been present in the parishes) or by design (i.e., because the pastors have not wanted that kind of hymn used in their parishes).

Some pastors are classically trained musicians who think that ancient chants and famous old hymns that have stood the test of time are more beautiful, orthodox, and inspirational -- and should be used exclusively in their parishes. To pastors such as these, instruments other than the organ and hymns written in recent decades just don't measure up. They seem tawdry by comparison.
[Please note that I am describing those priests, not myself. I respect their opinion, but don't fully agree, as I find only some modern hymns to be terrible, while others are lovely. (I do agree with them about the organ, though.)]

Most of what we may say about all this is strictly a matter of opinion. One usually cannot argue that a pastor or parish is doing anything contrary to Church law simply by following their musical customs and preferences.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 28, 2002.


Hi John,

Thank you for your kind words.

IMO no two parishes are alike. I personally like a pastor who gives a good sermon and keeps my interest first. The music is like an appetizer and a dessert before and after a great meal!! It just enhances the whole spiritual feeling of being there in church.

Every time I feel the spirit moving in my heart I will pray....

God Bless you John,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), June 28, 2002.


John, is "Glory and Praise" another of the "approved" missalette/ hymnbooks available (we use "Breaking Bread")? Both of the songs you mentioned are in Breaking Bread--I notice that very few of what I call the "folk Mass" type of songs are in that book. However, that does not stop some of our musicians from trying to make a traditional hymn into a folk song, lol.

Is it me, or does there seem to be a "stable" of certain songwriters in these missalettes? Is this a church thing, or a publisher (what is usually referred to as the "imprimatur (sp?)" thing? For example, Ray Repp was a very prolific religious folk music writer in the 60's/70's (I know there were others, but he sticks out in my mind), and I think there may be one song of his in the missalettes we use today, if that. On the other hand, there is a lot of Bernadette Farrell, Christopher Walker, and a Jeanne Frolick (sp?) who has put new (and modern) lyrics to some of the old hymns that I liked, much to my chagrin (and unfortunately, the publisher has not always included the old lyrics....).

By the way, why don't parishes go back to using hardback missals anyway? I think it is extremely wasteful of money, time, resources and energy to have to buy (well, pay the licensing fee to use the newer music, anyway, as opposed to free use of that which is in the public domain) new missalettes/songbooks every year and then have to toss them out. Aren't the readings in some sort of cycle (A, B, and C) anyway?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), June 29, 2002.


Jmj

Hello, GT.

"Glory and Praise" was a very popular, widespread collection of new, post-Vatican-II hymns that first came out in the 1970s (I think). They were published in three small, paperback volumes -- and later in a blue hardback volume -- by a group called "the St. Louis Jesuits." For the scores of hymns (which are of various "flavors"), there were numerous composers and lyricists -- but a certain core group whose names keep appearing. I believe that the core group were Jesuit priests themselves, but I have heard that some (if not all) eventually left the active priesthood. The G&P hymns were often played by guitar-centered groups, but there is an organ accompaniment too.

The original G&P hymnals can still be found in many parishes, but I know that two things are true: (1) there is a new edition that has new hymns (with some of the old removed) and (2) the most popular of the old G&P hymns are now printed in missalettes and other hymnals. Apparently, the original copyright ended, and the "owners" of the music sold the rights to lots of other people.

In the U.S., there are at least a few competing entities publishing missalettes and hymnals. They seem to put together "stables" of composers to write new hymns to be published every year -- or they seek to get the rights to publish old material. I think that there is Oregon Catholic Publishing, the J. S. Paluch Company (which publishes two different missalettes), the Leaflet Missal Company, and I think another missalette published by the Benedictines of Minnesota (Ligurgical Press). Then there are independent organizations that publish hymnals only -- e.g., something called G.I.A.. The most highly regarded new hymnal in orthodox Catholic circles is called the "Adoremus Hymnal."

Coming back to the original "Glory and Praise" hymnal ... Some of the most successful composers were Michael Joncas, Daniel Schutte, Rob Dufford, Carey Landry, and John Foley. Some of the G&P hymns with which you may be familiar are:
Here I am, Lord ... Be Not Afraid ... One Bread, One Body ... Glory and Praise to Our God [from which the hymnal's title probably comes] ... Sing a New Song Unto the Lord ... We Remember ... Blest Be the Lord ... Like a Shepherd ... On Eagle's Wings.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 30, 2002.


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