Exorcism

Who can perform exorcism apart from the Priest or laity ?

Are there any ways where, one having undergone certain rituals [Spiritual] maturity can attain this precious gift ?

Peace & Blessings

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), July 09, 2002

Answers

Performing excorcism has never been a easy task. I have known some people who went to cast out demons and return with demons inside them. Whereas the person who was earlier affected by the deamon was set free.

The profile of an excorcist is always that of a person who is very spiritually and mentally close to God. Some people have been known that they can see the demons with their naked eyes.

Peace & Blessings

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), July 09, 2002.

Xavier; stay as far away from that stuff as possible. I wouldn't consider it a precious gift as much as I would consider it a huge cross to carry. Messing around with malevolent entities is not a walk in the park, believe me.

Oh sorry, I didn't address your question... very, very few people really have this gift or this power. Those who easily claim they have it are full of it and really hanging themselves out on a limb.

What's that saying? 'Don't try this at home'? lol.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 09, 2002.

Emerald,

Thanks for your post. Rest assured that I would not be trying this at home.

Emerald, when you say that "...Those who easily claim they have it are full of it and really hanging themselves out on a limb..." do you mean that their life is not peaceful or some what like that or that they are often beleaguered by the demons whom they frequently overthrow. Is it somewhat so?

There are many people in the Vatican City who have many of the chrism or gifts that Padre Pio had. Though they are not famous enough like Pio.

A few months ago I came across a website that gave a testimony of a man who had the gifts of Stigmata. Though not in that measure what Pio had. This man was bachelor and used to often see the vision of God on HIS throne as described in the Book of Jeremiah. This same person also used to see the demons walking on the road or trying to enter into someone else. In short he could clearly see the Divine world with his bare eyes.

Peace & Blessings

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), July 09, 2002.

Xavier:

You are well-advised to stay away from such things. Don't believe everything you read on the web, either.

-- jake (jake__@msn.com), July 09, 2002.

Ques: Why are we afraid of demons? Were we to have total trust in Christ as protector is that not enough?

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 09, 2002.

Jean is right! But if an unbeliever tries to cast out a demon, they are in dire danger, (Remember the seven brothers of Sceva who tried it!) A believer who is filled with the Holy Spirit has nothing to fear; the Holy Spirit WILL NOT depart so that demons can take up residency!

But having said all that, a person needs to be on sure footing with the Lord before trying to 'cast a demon out.'

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 09, 2002.

Yeah Xavier, they are at risk both spiritually and physically... any demon that gets cast out by the power of God through a human is not going to be pleased and the excorcist can be harrassed and intimidated for the rest of their lives. Demons don't take too kindly to getting the boot from a human. The average lifespan of a true excorcist (not the protestant appliance healers) is very short.

To Jean and Gail... no way; there is plenty to fear and you can't just carelessly walk up in the name of Jesus and start ordering entities around. This would be way too loose an interpretation of what Christ was talking about. Would you say that because of our baptism and the aid of the sacraments that we could enter a strip joint with nothing to fear? I understand, though, why you say what you say, and am not ridiculing you or even fully in disagreement with you, but perhaps what aids this notion is that we can't see what we are up against, allowing for a false sense of security. These entities are incredibly powerful and capable. A real excorcism is so terrifying it would shake the strongest man to the core. Again, this stuff is not to be taken lightly.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 09, 2002.

Hi, Xavier

Catholic priests assigned by their bishop's receive an additional, particular power. When they use the formulas and prayers suggested by the Ritual, these prayers, involves the intercession of the holy Catholic Church.

All priests, even though who are not exorcists, have a particular power that derives from their ministerial ordination. This is not a honor to their person, but a service of the spirtual need of the faithful; to liberate from evil influences is one of the things that is required of priests.

I rember reading a old thread about this, Xavier. I think John has all the answers to your questions about what our Catholic Church teaches about this subject in this thread. I will find it and send up and away my good man. :-)

God bless you

David S

-- David (David@excite.com), July 09, 2002.

Xavier, my brother is a priest; he had a priest friend who claimed to have the power of excorcism. I remember when they came to visit, I listened him talk with my brother about his experiences, many of which would stand the hair up on the back of your neck. At any rate, this priest got a little cocky about his so called gift, and began to defy his superiors. It went downhill from there, until basically he ended up taking care of the garden all day because he was mentally and emotionally unfit to perform his duties. My brother tried to warn him, was not heeded, and it all ended in a personal disaster for this priest. He was had.

-- Emerald (emerald@cox.net), July 09, 2002.

Thanks for dragging up the old thread David. As usual, John did a good job, especially the first part of the his first post.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 09, 2002.

Hi Everyone:

Thanks, Emerald, for sharing. Let me elaborate a little bit about what I meant. There is a balance TO BE SURE. We don't want to be careless about the demonic, and we don't want to live in constant fear either. That's my point. I know some people who think the devil is lurking around every corner ready to pounce on them. They literally live every moment of their day fearing the devil. The devil has got them scared to death.

On the other hand, there are those who are cocky, arrogant, and misuse their 'alleged' authority. That is a grave danger as well, like Emerald pointed out. I've never had an encounter with a denomic manifestation, and I HOPE I NEVER DO!

We can't live in fear, and we can't live in arrogance! We know that our Lord has conquered the enemy; He made a public show of them at Calvary. So I will cling to my Savior at all times, in good times and in bad.

I know people that rebuke the devil left and right. I do not feel comfortable doing that. There's a passage of scripture somewhere where it says the "angel did not rail against the devil but simply said, 'the Lord rebuke you.'"

Love,

Gail

P.S. I do know a woman missionary to Haiti who had MANY encounters with witchcraft and denomic manifestations. She was able in the power of the Holy Spirit to thwart the evil plans of the enemy and literally led a whole village to Christ!!! It was quite an awesome testimony. These people were giving birth to children for the sole purpose of sacrifice. There were children running around with burn scars all over their bodies. When she asked why they were so scared, they said the children had been burned in sacrifice but would not die.

The witch who was in charge of the village tried to cast a spell on her. Sonya, FULLY KNOWING SHE HAD BEEN CALLED TO THE VILLAGE AND KNOWING THE POWER OF CHRIST WITHIN HER, simply told her 7 foot body guard/interpreter to tell this wiley fellow to "be gone in the Name of Jesus," and he literally wimpered off like a puppy with his tail between his legs.

Sonya and her husband have built a school and church in that area and are ministering to hundreds of children and new Christians daily.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 09, 2002.

I understand your point Gail, and agree, fear should be overshadowed by trust. But overall, a low profile is the best strategy, I believe... not to be confused with cowardice. Just smart strategy, given the power differences between the human and the angelic.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 09, 2002.

Hi, friends.
"ss (sss@ss.sss)" merits no replies. She works at an abortion mill.
She uses an appropriate alias. "Ssssssssssss" is the sound of the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Here she is the "Mother of Lies."

Thanks, David, for bringing up that old thread. For anyone who did not look at it [and it is awfully long], here is a key item from it -- concerning which Catholics are permitted to participate in exorcisms and which are not:

The following is an unofficial translation of part of a 1984 instruction from the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect).

"1. Canon 1172 of the Code of Canon Law declares that no one may licitly perform exorcisms on those who are possessed, unless he has obtained particular and express permission from the local ordinary, and it decrees that this permission is to be granted by the Bishop only to priests who are outstanding in piety, knowledge, prudence, and integrity of life. Bishops are therefore strongly urged to enforce the observance of these prescriptions.

"2. It follows also from these same prescriptions that Christ's faithful may not employ the formula of exorcism against Satan and the fallen angels which is excerpted from that formula made official by order of Pope Leo XIII, and certainly may not use the entire text of that exorcism. Let all bishops take care to admonish the faithful about this matter whenever such instruction is required."

The above pertains to Catholics, for whom the Church has decided it prudent to make these disciplinary rules.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 09, 2002.

There are different degrees of demonic activity in our lives, that is why we must be praying always for the gift of discernment.Once we've declared we are followers of Christ we have entered the spiritual realm with all it's battles, there is no demilitarized zone, so to speak. We are told by scripture and the holy Father, 'do not fear'. Greater is He that is in us then he that is in the world, and others.Two Cor. 10:4 says " the weapons of our battle are not of flesh but are enormously powerful, capable of destroying fortresses. We destroy arguments and every pretension raising itself against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive in obedience to Christ.." Having the Name of Jesus on our lips and in our hearts, and being filled with the Holy Spirit we are protected from the enemy. The Lord would have us be "sober and vigilant..our opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion waiting for someone to devour", says 2 Peter 5:8. We need to be able to detect his activities. If we are sheep of Jesus' we know His voice, and therefore detect a voice of an enemy. There are lesser degrees of domonic influence then just possession. There is temptation, infestation, obsession and oppressions. Yes the Church is very careful, but we as lay people need to be alert and able to pray for each other and speak a Word of deliverance, thus breaking bonds and being set free. We need to discern when there is illness in the spirit or in the psyche. And above all, let all be done with charity at its root.It is a great blessing to be a part of a mature prayer community where the gifts are being prayed for and used, in this case gifts of healing and deliverance. I have a sense we are going to be seeing more often, manifestations of the evil one, we need to be prepared and 'remain calm so you are able to pray' 1 peter 4:7. Minor deliverances can be done by lay people. They will certainly be necessary, without exorcism. Let us stay in prayer!!! Theresa Huether

-- Theresa Huether (rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), July 10, 2002.

Emerald,

Was astonished to know that the average existence of a true exorcist is extremely petite. I will also take into consideration the story of your brother priest.

Peace & Prayers

PS: In fact was pleased to hear that your brother is a priest. I will say some prayers for your family and priest brother. :-)

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), July 10, 2002.

David

Accept my gratitude for bringing up that brilliant thread on this matter.

Peace & Prayers

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), July 10, 2002.

Thanks Xavier. He is near Buenos Aires, Argentina, and you know how bad things are down there right now; he could use the prayers.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 10, 2002.

John,

You are really astonishing. The more I get through your post, the more I profit. You are a maestro beyond depiction. :-)

Theresa,

This is your first post that I have gone through. You make a good mother and certainly have a brilliant son (Jake). Hoping more posts from you. :-)

Peace & Prayers

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), July 10, 2002.

thank you Xavier,time doesn't allow me to stay online for large amounts, but I'm afraid, late at night, before bed, I can get hooked. There are such good subjects brought up, you're all so enjoyable. Regarding exorcism again... and many other subjects.. go onto FR. John Hampsch's web site, he's 'one of the biggies' when it comes to good solid teaching. it's www.claretiantapeministry.org ..that's good for ordering tapes or books, or freebie booklets. Also, his email is .. FrHampsch@claretiantapeministry.org His delight is to shoot back good quick answers, right on the target.Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), July 10, 2002.

Theresa, Great Posting, and you are absolutely correct! We as lay people certainly have the obligation and privilege to pray for each other's deliverance from temptation and from oppression. Of course, exorcism is a different thing, and I think the Church is wise to error on the side of caution.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 10, 2002.

Jmj

Hello, Theresa.

I'm interested in something you mentioned. I have only heard of it, in passing, once before. Here is what you stated, and I've highlighted the key term:
"It is a great blessing to be a part of a mature prayer community where the gifts are being prayed for and used, in this case gifts of healing and deliverance. ... Minor deliverances can be done by lay people. They will certainly be necessary, without exorcism."

My questions are these:
(1) What is "the gift of deliverance"? I used a Catechism search engine and could not find a reference to such a "gift."
(2) What occurs in a "minor deliverance"? It sounds as though it is ceremonial/ritual in nature? Can you point me to a Catholic Church document that authorizes the performance of "minor deliverances" by lay people?

You may have already realized that I am somewhat concerned about this. No priest has ever talked about a "gift of deliverance" in the thousands of sermons/homilies I have heard. No one speaks of it on EWTN. I have never come across it in a Catholic Church document.
Is "deliverance" something developed in Protestant Pentecostalism -- and then unofficially adopted by a number of Catholic lay people?

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 11, 2002.

Hi John:

I don't know what Theresa's response will be, but I just wanted to chime-in, having come from pentecostal/charistmatic background and having seen MANY abuses of what deliverance should be.

You see some ministers on T.V. 'delivering' people from demons of alcohol, tobacco, lust, etc. It makes a good show for them, and benefits them monetarily by making a big drama. They scream and holler, they knock people in the forehead. Oh, they carry on like wolves crying at the moon. That's a sham!

But, if a person has, say, a stronghold of jealousy, in their life, prayer, fasting, and having fellow believers pray that stronghold down would be a legitimate, biblical method of conquering sin, don't you think? I have a friend with the gift of discernment (word of knowledge gift) when praying for people. She has a supernatural ability to discern strongholds in people she doesn't even know, and then proceed to pray them down, so to speak. She is not "drawing attention to herself," but INTERCEDES mightily!

It's really mighty travailing prayer over sin -- that's legitimate and biblical. There are people who have a ministry of this type of prayer that not every believer has -- it's militant, discerning, and effectual, and totally the work of the Holy Spirit.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 11, 2002.

Years ago when I was at a Catholic Charismatic prayer group led by the Deacon of our church, the subject of deliverance came up and the deacon got this very weird look on his face....like that of fear!

He did not want to discuss it and said it is very, very dangerous and only very few priests have ever formed an exorcism.

When he was talking about it, a sudden chill came into the room, in fact, it was like an icy cold breeze - everyone felt it. It was a very uncomfortable feeling. We all started saying the name Jesus without having to be told to do that...we just felt that we should..and the icy chill in the air disappeared. I know that sounds unbeliveable, but it's true.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), July 11, 2002.

To the top, hoping for a reply to my questions from Theresa ...

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 13, 2002.

Posting for Theresa Huether:

I appreciate your questions for further details about my comments on deliverance ministry,which, by the way, goes hand in hand most times with the healing ministry. I apologize for sounding flippant about this ministry, which is no gift to be taken lightly. I used the word ‘minor’ as in comparison to full blown exorcisms. I agree and have come to see the tremendous abuses made 20-30 years ago, rising from pride and ignorance. There was a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the early sixties, wherein the gifts of the Holy Spirit took birth in the Church in a new and active way, and looking back we can see that people tried to use them without the needed training and discernment, and many times without proper authority and covering, causing a dreadful fallout of doubt, anger and confusion.

However, very recently there has been a new unction, a new rise in the usage of the gifts, and births of new ministries abound in the Church, only this time we have learned from our mistakes, and many prayer groups are finding their bishops and priests more open to participate and sanction training sessions in such ministries as healing and deliverance. Attitudes have changed in that genuine charity and servitude for our brothers and sisters in need have replaced pride and presumption. The gifts are given for the ‘build up’ and edification of the church,as St. Paul speaks of in 1 Cor. 12 and 14.

We must not throw the baby out with the bath water, and refuse in our participation as the Body of Christ. I believe there must be forgiveness for past sins, and instead we must continue to intercede for those who are called to these ministries.As I write, there are intercessory prayer groups springing up, repenting for past sins, and receiving promptings on how to proceed now.

Before I give a few sources of good teaching on healing and deliverance ministries,may I share an observation? The Church is in a major crisis of faith, as we are well aware, not only with the sexual scandals, but in the infiltration of heresies in many of our seminaries. It is a tragedy that many priests deny the very existence of Satan and his demonic forces, which is of course against scripture itself and Church doctrine. We must be cautious, but the Church has erred on the side of caution, leaving many people in need of deliverance high and dry. People opposing Harry Potter and the like are laughed out of Catholic circles, ignorance of witchcraft and occult practices that have infested our youth runs rampant.

Having done music ministry for healing services in Catholic charismatic renewal since 1980, I have been priveledged to work with such priests as Fr. John Hampsch CMF, Matt Linn, S.J., and Fr. Richard McAlear. They are among many authors in good Catholic standing who have written on deliverance ministry .Each have lay people on their teams. Others who have written on the subject are Robert De Grandis,S.J, Peter Kreeft, Mike Scanlon, TOR, {Deliverance from evil Spirits}, Barbara Schlemon Ryan, and the late Cardinal Leon Joseph Suenens.

So what does this have to do with the laity? I’d like to share an exerpt from a paper written by Robert T. Sears, S.J. titled “A Catholic View of Exorcism and Deliverance”. My emphasis being on the difference between exorcism and deliverance.

..”Exorcism was practiced liturgically from early times, but also extra-liturgically both by ordained exorcists {an ecclesiastical order from the middle of the third century} and charismatically empowered exorcists {whose validation Hyppolytus affirms, comes from the visible effectiveness of their ministry}. At present, the Roman Ritual , the priest’s manual, specifically limits the office of exorcist to priests, omitting mention of ‘other exorcists’. Restriction on solemn exorcism were extended to the whole Latin Church in 1917. The canon reads:

‘No one who has the power of exorcism can legitimately exorcise it upon the possessed unless he has obtained the special and explicit permission of his ordinary. This permission will be granted by the ordinary only to a priest endowed with piety and prudence, and of upright life: he is not to proceed with the exorcism until a diligent and prudent investigation reveals that the person to be exorcised is really possessed by a demon. {Code of Canon Law, 1151, Vatican, 1963}’.

This regulation of solemn exorcism {for those confirmed to be possessed} is not to restrict the use of simple {private} exorcism by priests in their ordinary ministry and lay persons charismatically called. Recognized manuals of moral theology since the time of St. Alphonsus Ligouri have distinguished between solemn and private exorcism and encouraged the latter. St. Alphonsus writes:

‘Private exorcism is permissible to all Christians; solemn exorcism is permissible only to ministers who are appointed to it, and then only with the express permission of the bishop.’

This is presently the official teaching of the Catholic Church. Evil spirits exist. Solemn exorcism is reserved to approved exorcists, while simple deliverance prayer is approved for priests and gifted lay people. It must be admitted , however, that in practice emphasis on personal evil spirits diminished around the time of Vatican Council 11. It was the advent of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in 1968 that returned attention to personal evil spirits. As the renewal grew, it was found necessary to provide guidelines and instructions. In 1985 the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith sent out a directive to Ordinaries that lay people were not to recite the official exorcism prayer of the Church. {Can.1172}. Nor were immature lay people to pray simple deliverance prayers. Actually, the deliverance ministry has been fairly orderly in the Renewal in the United States. The Bishop’s liaison Committee issued a pastoral statement in 1984 which presented the following directives for deliverance ministries: In the biblical witness, deliverance ministries are part of the healing ministry {Luke 9:1}of which the ministry of inner healing is a part. On occasion, when prayers for spiritual healing are being offered, deliverance prayer is sometimes needed. Here, both wise pastoral guidance and discernment of spirits are absolute requirements. Prayers of deliverance and exorcism should not be confused.”

I end quote, from Fr. Sears. This is only a small exerpt, needless to say there is much on the subject. There are no ‘lone rangers’ in this ministry, we are accountable to each other, and I emphasis the importance in belonging to a strong community that is faithful to the Holy Father, and authentic Church teachings, ideally having a holy priest for a director.

I personally have witnessed deliverance sessions that ended in much joy for the one being released. The ministry of healing and deliverance is used with other partner gifts of ‘word of knowledge’ ,’word of wisdom’,and of course, discernment of spirits, and all undergirded by developed intercessory prayers. Those used in this ministry have it as a lifestyle, a way of thinking, taking on the mind of Christ. He came to break off yokes and bonds, and to set us free. Thanks for taking the time to read. God bless. Theresa

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), July 18, 2002.

Jmj

Thank you, Theresa, for replying to me through your son.
I have no doubt about your sincerity, but I am a bit concerned that you may be making a mistake, possibly going along with something to which the Church has given only disapproval. I could be mistaken, but I need to see hard evidence from persons in authority.
Sorry, but I do not recognize Fr. Sears as an authority, because he is not part of the Magisterium (pope and united bishops) and he is not a papal spokesman. What he quoted St. Alphonsus as having said is subject to interpretation, and it is not binding on us today anyway.

Theresa, I asked you: "What is 'the gift of deliverance'? I used a Catechism search engine and could not find a reference to such a 'gift.'"
Theresa, I don't believe that you really gave me a definition of "the gift of deliverance" in your reply.

Then, I asked you: "What occurs in a 'minor deliverance'? It sounds as though it is ceremonial/ritual in nature?"

Theresa, I don't believe that you actually described "what occurs in a minor deliverance." I wanted to know about the people involved, who says what to whom, sacramentals (if any) that are used, etc.. In other words, is someone possessed or obsessed ... does someone use prayers to "deliver" the person from a demon? And so forth. Are you perhaps afraid to describe this to me?

Finally, I asked you: "Can you point me to a Catholic Church document that authorizes the performance of 'minor deliverances' by lay people?"
Theresa, you came close to answering this by quoting the following words from Fr. Sears: "In 1985 the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith sent out a directive to Ordinaries that lay people were not to recite the official exorcism prayer of the Church. {Can.1172}. Nor were immature lay people to pray simple deliverance prayers."
Can you help me by quoting (at length) -- or, better yet, giving a URL/link to -- the actual 1985 CDF document, so that I can read what was stated. I would especially like to read what the CDF said about any lay people being authorized to "pray simple deliverance prayers."

Thanks in advance, if you can help me.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 18, 2002.

John, Not to answere for my mother, she probably will have some good "evidence" for you, but I wanted to clarify: it seems as though you took what she said as that deliverance was a gift (like the formal gifts of the Holy Spirit - the gift of prophesy, tongues, etc.). I think what she meant was that it is a gift like every ministry is a gift. My job was a gift. That is gift meaning given.

I just found a couple of things on the web that might satisfy your need for evidence,here and here. The latter site holds many usefull documents. I don't have time right this moment to search specifically for one on deliverance, but it shouldn't be hard.

Hope this helps!

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), July 19, 2002.

Jmj

Thanks, Jake.

I could find nothing helpful at your second linked site.

At the first site you linked, I found this:

"Deliverance is both prayer and a ministry. In the former sense [prayer], it is a type of spiritual warfare which is directed at expelling specific evil spirits from particular person, places or things in Jesus' name, and usually includes infilling and protection prayer."

In my opinion, Jake, this "prayer of deliverance," if attempted by a Catholic lay person, would be contrary to Canon 1172: "§1 No one may lawfully exorcise the possessed without the special and express permission of the local Ordinary. §2 This permission is to be granted by the local Ordinary only to a priest who is endowed with piety, knowledge, prudence and integrity of life."

The first site you linked continues: "Beyond the use of such prayer for oneself and in one's immediate family, it becomes the 'ministry' of deliverance. In this area, it must be exercised in 'strict dependence on the diocesan bishop in keeping with the norm of Canon 1172...' (See, 'The Instructions On Prayer For Healing,' November 23, 2000, by the Congregation for Doctrine of the Faith, Article 8, Paragraph 1). This ministry is not for everyone, and it is beyond the scope of this discussion."

Jake, it seems that the author is drawing a false distinction between "deliverance prayer" and "deliverance ministry." Without a Vatican document stating something to the contrary, I am left believing that the deliverance "prayer" and "ministry" are really the same thing -- and that they are, in fact, a sort of "amateur exorcism," contrary to the law of the Church. If I am correct, this would be something dangerous and wrong to do.

As indicated above, your first linked site, in the context of "ministry of deliverance," referred to a Vatican document ('The Instructions On Prayer For Healing,' November 23, 2000, the Congregation for Doctrine of the Faith) that you can read here.
This CDF document is WHOLLY about "healing" of bodily illnesses. It never refers to "deliverance" -- neither as a "prayer" or a "ministry" -- so I don't understand why your first linked site implies that it does. I think that I am justifiably worried that some folks may be practicing and recommending something improper to "Catholic Charismatics" -- namely, a manifestation of the "clericalization of the laity" that the Church has forbidden (more or less in imitation of what occurs in Protestant Pentecostalism).

In bold, here are a few things found near the end of the CDF document, in a section of binding "norms:"

Article 5
§ 1. Non-liturgical prayers for healing are distinct from liturgical celebrations, as gatherings for prayer or for reading of the word of God; these also fall under the vigilance of the local Ordinary in accordance with canon 839 § 2 ["Local Ordinaries are to ensure that the prayers and the pious and sacred practices of the Christian people are in full harmony with the laws of the Church."].
§ 2. Confusion between such free non-liturgical prayer meetings and liturgical celebrations properly so-called is to be carefully avoided.
§ 3. Anything resembling hysteria, artificiality, theatricality or sensationalism, above all on the part of those who are in charge of such gatherings, must not take place.

Article 8
§ 1. The ministry of exorcism must be exercised in strict dependence on the Diocesan Bishop, and in keeping with the norm of can. 1172, the Letter of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith of September 29, 1985, and the Rituale Romanum.
§ 2. The prayers of exorcism contained in the Rituale Romanum must remain separate from healing services, whether liturgical or non-liturgical.
§ 3. It is absolutely forbidden to insert such prayers of exorcism into the celebration of the Holy Mass, the sacraments, or the Liturgy of the Hours.

The 2000 CDF document just quoted has a footnote (#31) that refers to the 1985 CDF letter mentioned in the text your mother quoted from Fr. Sears. Father claimed that the 1985 letter gave this directive: "Nor were immature lay people to pray simple deliverance prayers." But I have now looked at the 1985 letter and found that it does not refer to "deliverance" nor to "mature" nor "immature lay people," etc.. Was Fr. Sears making a mistake or not being honest?

The full Latin text of the 1985 letter ("Epistula 'Inde ab aliquot annis'," AAS 77(1985), 1169-1170), along with an unofficial English translation, can be found here. Here are a few excerpts:
"For several years, in certain areas of the Church, assemblies formed to pray for liberation from the influence of demons (though they do not perform exorcisms as such) have been increasing in number. These assemblies are often led by members of the laity, even when there is a priest present. ...
"... no one may licitly perform exorcisms on those who are possessed, unless he has obtained particular and express permission from the local ordinary ... this permission is to be granted by the Ordinary only to priests ...
"2. It follows also from these same prescriptions that Christ's faithful may not employ the formula of exorcism against Satan and the fallen angels which is excerpted from that formula made official by order of the Supreme Pontiff Leo XIII, and certainly may not use the entire text of that exorcism. ...
"3. ... Bishops are asked to guard lest those who lack the required power [i.e., non-exorcists] attempt to lead assemblies in which prayers are employed to obtain liberation from demons, and in the course of which the demons are directly disturbed and an attempt is made to determine their identity. This applies even to cases which, although they do not involve true diabolical possession, nevertheless are seen in some way to manifest diabolical influence.
"Of course, the enunciation of these norms should not stop the faithful of Christ from praying, as Jesus taught us, that they may be freed from evil (cf. Mt 6:13). ..."

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 19, 2002.

John, your concern challenges me. Thank you. Debate is not my strong point, so let's agree to remain in Jesus' peace, ok? Jake.. thanks for the vote of confidence. What a joy!

I admit, my experiences are on the tip of my tongue, they are my testimony to the fact that yes "Jesus is Lord", and no one can ever take our testimonis from us{see Rev. 12:11}.I'll dig a little bit deeper for the official 'permission' you want to back them up. That will come on a later posting, with your patience. I don't have the time to get online daily.

Experiencially speaking, spiritual activity is difficult to put into words, without trivializing them, or making them sound sensational or hysterical. As I well know the document warns us against that. That's why I hesistate to speak of them,as you asked me to do. Will it increase your faith? or decrease it? Heaven forbid the latter. Without firsthand experience yourself you may remain in disbelief, or at worst, become even closed. The few cases that come to my mind had neither sensationalism nor hysteria connected with them. As a matter of fact, the peace and order present was amazing. In one case the people in the room were instructed to just pray, and repeat "Jesus is Lord".Many of us prayed in tongues {Romans 8:26,27}.A few prayed the rosary. This made for an atmosphere of faith. The young man involved was letting out growling noises no human being could ever have uttered. It took only 15 to 20 minutes, and the 'main pray-er' used holy water and blest oil, and with simple words "in Jesus' Name come out" it was done. The young man got up and was dancing with joy. This was not an exorcism. I sensed the freedom right away. Now that's trivializing it. At vulnerabilities' risk, anyone can argue it's authenticity. Let it not be a stumbling block to anyone's faith. John, at this point, I ask you to re-read my last entry {the one via Jake}, and just ask the Holy Spirit to speak a word to your heart.

As a matter of fact, the more I ponder this matter-let's keep our focus on Jesus.My walk with Jesus is not to chase the domonic,at all, this is just an 'incidental', my one End is .."forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead, I continue my persuit towards the goal, the prize of God's upward calling, in Christ Jesus". I hope I can receive the information you want. blessings! Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), July 19, 2002.

I don't want to step into an arena that I am unfamiliar with, I must wait for my mothers responce (she has a better knowledge of this stuff).

However, I can add that there is a distinction between exorcism and deliverance. You stated "In my opinion, Jake, this "prayer of deliverance," if attempted by a Catholic lay person, would be contrary to Canon 1172: "§1 No one may lawfully exorcise the possessed without the special and express permission of the local Ordinary. §2 This permission is to be granted by the local Ordinary only to a priest who is endowed with piety, knowledge, prudence and integrity of life.""

The Canon does specifically say it is unlawful to *exorcise* the *possessed*. It does not, however, say it is unlawful to *deliver* the *obsessed* or ill. In the last sentence I made I hope it is clear that illness (physically and mentally) and obsession sometimes correspond. This is why the CDF document you read was wholely about healing. When someone is *delivered* from the obsession of a demon, it is most likely that an alement that accompanied the presence of that demon was at the same time rid of. I'm not sure of the logistics, like when an obsession becomes possesion. I am also not sure of the exact differences between exorcism and deliverance. Certainly being exorcised "delivers" you from evil, however the term used in the sence of obsession might be theologically different. Lucky for me I have not yet been called to either ministery:)

I do hope my mom responds soon. I think she is gathering info from a friend priest Fr. Hampsh, who will be able to give you the specifics. I know that he deals with this stuff, and he is also very obediant to his Bishop. Therefore, I am quite confident by the end of this thread things will be clear.

Thanks for your concern, and in cases like this I would rather be safe (as in not attempt either exorcism or deliveranc) than end up obsessed or possessed myself. You are correct in your wearyness, and I am glad for that.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), July 19, 2002.

Looks like I spoke to soon :)

Take care.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), July 19, 2002.

Hi Everyone:

Thanks Theresa for a great posting.

There is a difference between "being possessed" by the devil and being "oppressed" by the devil. I'm not sure what category the subject fellow would have fallen into. But what I wanted to point out is that Theresa and the others "participated" in this exercise without actually performing it. In other words, like she said, they created an "atmosphere of faith" by their prayers. Certainly, that is not something forbidden by the Church, is it?

I understand John's concern. There is a lot of goofy stuff out there. I have friends who are really into the "hoogly-booglies" of demonic warfare, and the devil is on their minds more than the Lord, but Theresa clearly does not fall into that category. She shows wisdom and maturity, and clearly is not trying to "draw attention to herself" or create "sensation" by her posting.

It will be interesting to see what John finds in canon law.

Blessings,

Gail

P.S. Anyone ever heard of Rodney Howard-Browne? They call him the "Holy Ghost Bartender." People bark, howl, and scream like demons in his meetings, and people call that "the work of the Holy Spirit!" I had a friend who truly went off the deep end into this stuff. She was into all sorts of "personal prophecy" meetings. She thought she and her husband were destined to become evangelists like Benny Hinn. I feared for her sanity. She ended up divorced twice in two short years. Moved off to some other part of the country. She totally FLIPPED out! It was VERY SAD!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 19, 2002.

John,

I think it is great for you to try to discern the difference between deliverance and exorcism. It is very apparent you have the welfare of Theresa's soul as your main concern.

However, it seems that you believe that praying that a person may be free from possession is the same thing as performing an exorcism. I do not believe this is the case. We should all feel compelled to pray for this release if we are aware or suspect a person is subject to a possession. I believe this is the difference between the prayer and ministry that the web site you quoted is trying to make.

Now if a person is standing over one who is posessed (or possibly posessed) and praying for deliverance, then I believe this is too dangerous for a lay person to attempt and would agree with your assessment.

Respectfully submitted for your comments.

-- Glenn (glenn@excite.com), July 19, 2002.

Thank you, Glenn.
You are very right to think that I have the best interests of Theresa and everyone else at heart. We are talking about something very important, something that can be perilous, something that calls for erring on the side of caution.

I'm sorry if I wrote something that misled to into believing that I take a position that is different from the one I actually take. You wrote to me: "... it seems that you believe that praying that a person may be free from possession is the same thing as performing an exorcism. I do not believe this is the case."

Nor do I, Glenn. I am very much in favor of each of us "praying that a person may be free from possession." I even think that I have read that the Church wants family members and friends of a possessed person to be nearby during an exorcism, praying most earnestly for the priest-exorcist and for the possessed person (though not saying the prayers of exorcism themselves).

You continued: "We should all feel compelled to pray for this release if we are aware or suspect a person is subject to a possession."

Again, I agree with you. The person's freedom is good, while his enslavement is bad, so we should ask God to help him.

Then you wrote: "I believe this is the difference between the prayer and ministry that the web site you quoted is trying to make."

Here I have to differ with you, because I paid very close attention to the words that the author of those comments uses. Speaking of "deliverance prayer," the author states (with my emphasis added): " ... it is a type of spiritual warfare which is directed at expelling specific evil spirits from particular persons, places or things in Jesus' name ... ."

Now, according to what I have heard and read, if we "direct" our prayers "at expelling specific evil spirits from particular persons," we are illicitly attempting an exorcism. I believe that only an authorized priest is permitted to elicit the names of "specific evil spirits" and to offer commandingprayers of expulsion of those spirits, calling upon the power of Jesus. As laity (and unauthorized clergy), we may only offer prayers of petition directly to God, without commanding the evil one ourselves.

Jake and Theresa, I am familiar with Fr. Hampsch, having seen him interviewed at least twice on EWTN. I don't remember hearing him say anything improper, so I do respect him. However, his personal opinions about this will not really influence me. I need to see a Vatican document that authorizes "deliverance prayer" and/or "deliverance ministry," giving a description of these things, explaining who may take part, the limits of their words and actions, etc.. Ours is mainly a ritual Church with norms/rules, and those two things are particularly important to follow in such a serious and potentially hazardous spiritual warfare.

Theresa, in your reply to me, you described an actual event in your life as follows: "In one case the people in the room were instructed to just pray, and repeat 'Jesus is Lord.' Many of us prayed in tongues ... . A few prayed the rosary. This made for an atmosphere of faith. The young man involved was letting out growling noises no human being could ever have uttered. It took only 15 to 20 minutes, and the 'main pray-er' used holy water and blest oil, and with simple words, 'In Jesus' Name, come out,' it was done. The young man got up and was dancing with joy. This was not an exorcism."

My first response to your story is a positive one -- namely, that it was good that you and the others who were present "just pray[ed]" (saying "Jesus is Lord" and praying the rosary). But my second response to your narrative is to ask you, "Who was the 'main pray-er'?" My impression is that he/she was a layperson, not an authorized exorcist-priest. If the "main pray-er" was a layperson, then, in my opinion, something seriously wrong took place. You said that this "was not an exorcism," but I must say that it surely was one. I believe quite firmly that no Catholic layperson (and not even an unauthorized priest or deacon) may command a demon with the words you quoted: "In Jesus' name, come out."

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 20, 2002.

John, I will post a note Fr. Hampsch, CMF, wrote to us here, it includes a document from Sept. '84, then I will ask you a few questions, and make a few comments.

The following document of September 29, 1984, from the Sacred Congregation of the Doctrine, may aswer your question. Take special notice of paragraph 3, which has been broadly interpreted by most bishops to mean that any non-formal prayers of deliverance (not exorcism) may be used by qualified laity in the deliverance ministry, as long as no direct communication with demons is conducted, such as demanding their names to be revealed, etc. (see the italicized portion of that paragraph). This interpretation of the bishops follows the mandate of Jesus in Mark 16:17: "Believers will be able to cast out demons in my name, by my power." This has been further extended in the more recent document accompanying the new ritual of exorcism, in which qualified laity may participate with a priest, even in exorcisms (not just prayers for deliverance, as Jesus taught us to pray, in the Our Father, "Deliver us from the evil one."

The epilogue after paragraph 3) enumerates other ways in which the laity may exercise their "priesthood of the laity" (1 Peter 2:5). The official documents published later expound these statements even more broadly. This document will be followed in this same email in the original Latin, to establish further authenticity. I hope this document (and its translation) will provide an adequate response to your inquiry. My above remarks above may be quoted as you find feasible.

God bless you, Theresa. Best to Rod.

Prayerfully, in Jesus' Spirit, John H. Hampsch, C.M.F.

INDE AB ALIQUOT ANNIS On The Current Norms Governing Exorcisms

Issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on September 29, 1984.

(Published in the Vatican's Acta Apostolica Sedis, pp. 1169-70)

Excellentissime Domine,

For several years, in certain areas of the Church, assemblies formed to pray for liberation from the influence of demons (though they do not perform exorcisms as such) have been increasing in number. These assemblies are often led by members of the laity, even when there is a priest present. Since the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has been asked what is the proper attitude towards these activities, this Dicastery deems it necessary to make known to all Ordinaries the response which follows:

1). Canon 1172 of the Code of Canon Law declares that no one may licitly perform exorcisms on those who are possessed, unless he has obtained particular and express permission from the local ordinary (section 1), and it decrees that this permission is to be granted by the Ordinary only to priests who are outstanding in piety, knowledge, prudence, and integrity of life (section 2). Bishops are therefore strongly urged to enforce the observance of these prescriptions.

2). It follows also from these same prescriptions that Christ's faithful may not employ the formula of exorcism against Satan and the fallen angels which is excerpted from that formula made official by order of the Supreme Pontiff Leo XIII, and certainly may not use the entire text of that exorcism. Let all bishops take care to admonish the faithful about this matter whenever such instruction is required.

3). Finally, for the same reasons, Bishops are asked to guard lest those who lack the required power attempt to lead assemblies in which prayers are employed to obtain liberation from demons, and in the course of which the demons are directly disturbed and an attempt is made to determine their identity. This applies even to cases which, although they do not involve true diabolical possession, nevertheless are seen in some way to manifest diabolical influence.

Of course, the enunciation of these norms should not stop the faithful of Christ from praying, as Jesus taught us, that they may be freed from evil (cf. Mt 6:13). Moreover, Pastors should take this opportunity to remember what the tradition of the Church teaches about the function properly assigned to the intercession of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, the Apostles and the Saints, even in the spiritual battle of Christians against the evil spirits.

May I take this occasion to convey my great feelings of esteem for you, remaining your servant in the Lord,

Joseph Card. Ratzinger, Prefect, Sacred Congregation of the Doctrine

INDE AB ALIQUOT ACTA CONGREGATIONUM CONGREGATIO PRO DOCTRINA FIDEI Epistula Ordinarii socorum missa: in mentem normae vigentes de exorcismis revocantur [Die 29 m. Septembris a. 1985 (AAS p. 1169-70)]

Excellentissime domine,

Inde ab aliquot annis, apud quosdam coetus ecclesiales, conventus ad precationes faciendas multiplicantur hoc quidem proposito, ut liberatio obtineatur ab influxu daemonum, etiamsi non de exorcismis proprie dictis agatur; qui conventus peraguntur sub ductu laicorum, etiam praesente sacerdote.Cum a Congregatione pro doctrina fidei quaesitum sit quid sentiendum de hisce factis, hoc dicasterium necessarium putat omnes ordinarios certiores facere de responsione quae sequitur:

1). Canon 1172 Codicis Iuris Canonici declarat neminem exorcismos in obsessos proferre legitime posse, nisi ab ordinario loci peculiarem et expressam licentiam obtinuerit (1), ac determinat hanc licentiam ab ordinario loci concedendam esse tantummodo presbytero pietate, scientia, prudentia ac vitae integritate praedito

(2). Episcopi igitur enixe invitantur, ut observantiam urgeant horum praescriptorum.2. Ex hisce praescriptionibus sequitur ut christifidelibus etiam non liceat adhibere formulam exorcismi contra satanam et angelos apostaticos, excerptam ex illa quae publici iuris facta est iussu summi pontificis Leonis XIII, ac multo minus adhibere textum integrum huius exorcismi. Episcopi hac de re fideles admonere curent in casu necessitatis.

3). Denique, ob easdem rationes, episcopi rogantur ut vigilent ne -- etiam in casibus qui, licet veram possessionem diabolicam excludant, diabolicum tamen influxum aliqualiter revelare videntur -- ii qui debita potestate carent conventus moderentur, in quibus ad liberationem obtinendam precationes adhibentur, quarum decursu daemones directe interpellantur et eorum identitas cognoscere studetur. Harum normarum tamen enuntiatio minime christifideles abducere debet a precando ut, quemadmodum Iesus nos docuit, liberentur a malo (cf. Mt 6,13). Insuper pastores has oblata opportunitate uti poterunt, ut in mentem revocent quid Ecclesiae traditio doceat circa munus quod proprie ad sacramenta et ad Beatissimae Virginis Mariae, Angelorum Sanctorumque intercessionem spectat in christianorum etiam contra spiritus malignos spirituali certamine.Hanc occasionem nactus impensos aestimationis meae sunsus tibi obtestor permanensadd.mus in DominoIosephus Card. Ratzinger, PraefectusAlbertus Bovone, a SecretisL. S. In Congr. pro Doctrina Fidei tab., n. 291/70

I've also written our good friend Rev. Terry Donahue from "Companions of the Cross" order in Ontario, and await his response. This is good conversation..wouldn't you agree? I wonder, are you interested because you feel called to pray for deliverances? If you were in a situation, would you be able to recognize the difference between a need for exorcism, and a need for deliverance from a lesser stronghold, say a 'lying spirit'? If you are interested in more on the subject would you be willing to go to a Catholic book store and read from Catholic authors on the subject, such as Hampsch, or Scanlon,TOR, Ralph Martin, Matt Linn,SJ, or MacAlear? I don't throw names around just for the sake of it, verify their standing. {by the way, through my research I just found out Francis MacNutt has been laicized and is good standing with the Church}, I"m glad to hear.

Just yesterday I spent the day in Sacramento at a conference with Fr. Peter Sanders, Oratorian, on "Inner [psychological} Healing". He presented such good material that is helpful when praying in teams with people; how to recognize when people come with need of physical and/or emotional needs, how to pray, and what to do when you discern, or they tell you, they need a spiritual healing. I believe God is calling people out to the 'front lines', to be His eyes and ears on these matters. Needless to say, this takes training and love, so there is no abuse. How many sessions of prayer is needed, what has the person been dabbling in [ouiji boards, tarot cards, palm reading,sinful activity, or the result of past traumas}, all this has to be known to make a good discernment on the natural level, then the Holy Spirit gives the supernatural knowledge.

Just in our own diocese we see there are countless people in need of help, and a shortage of priests who want to even deal with the subject of spiritual warfare. I thank God for the priests that do, and are teaching on it. We've been given the equipment. I'm in no way aligning myself with radical feminist ideas of women being priests. That is despicable and undesirable at the least. I subject myself to the proper authorities, my bishop, my pastor, my spiritual leaders, and my Jesus everyday!!! I pray for the grace to 'be corrected', and I have been, and it's NOT fun, I tell you, but it's all part of our sanctification.

The Lord knows He can use me for anything He wants, does that sound radical? Let it be!!! He knows best the need that's out there. "The harvest is plenty.. laborers are few".. I give my superiors plenty of room to stop me, I am not on my own. Let us continue to pray for wisdom!!!! God bless you richly. In Him, Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), July 21, 2002.

..Jake, I have to laugh at your 'slip', in thanking John for his 'weariness', I'm sure he's that too, on top of being 'wary'.

-- Theresa Huether (rodntee4jesus@aol.com), July 21, 2002.

Jmj

Hello, Theresa.

Did you notice that, earlier in this thread, I had already twice (07/09 and 07/19) quoted from the very same CDF letter that Fr. Hampsch sent to you -- and that I had posted a hyperlink to the same Latin text and unofficial English translation that you just copied here? [Depending on where you look at the letter online, it is identified as having been published in September of 1984 or 1985.]

Theresa, this may surprise you, but I find that Fr. Hampsch's note confirms the things I have been saying in my previous posts -- namely:

(1) The Church has not published a document that actually refers to "deliverance prayer" or "deliverance ministry." [Those appear to be unofficial terms coined by a small group of Protestants or Catholics in the U.S.. A bad thing seems to be that different people (e.g., Fr. Hampsch and the writer at Jake's first linked site) assign different meanings to those terms, leading to potential confusion and illicit actions.]

(2) According to Fr. Hampsch (agreeing with what I previously stated), the Church says that non-exorcists are not permitted to command the devil. [Therefore, if, in the personal experience that you related earlier, the "main pray-er" was not an exorcist appointed by the bishop, then a dangerous and amateur "exorcism," contrary to Church law, was attempted. It worries me that you did not realize this.]

I hope that I am breaking up your message correctly, Theresa. I mean I think that your quotation from Fr. Hampsch ends at the bottom of the Latin text ... and that what follows are your own words addressed to me. Proceeding under that assumption, I will respond to a few things that I think you wrote.

First, I think that you stated: "This is good conversation ... wouldn't you agree?"
Well, I won't really know for sure if it was "good" until it comes to an end! I'm afraid that I have a bit of an impatient nature that likes a quick resolution. To me, this seems to be a simple, open-and-shut case, but we have been in conversation for 12 days. Lord, please grant me patience!

Next, you asked: "I wonder, are you interested because you feel called to pray for deliverances?"
The honest answer is, "Everyone is called to pray for an end to demonic possessions and obsessions in the world." I believe that there are no special vocations in this regard.
Theresa, I don't believe that there should exist something labeled "deliverance." I am also against the misuse of the term "ministry" (as in "deliverance ministry") which the Church has lately been asking us to restrict to refer to the work of ordained men. More and more, the Church is asking us to avoid the "clericalization of the laity." I believe that the ubiquitous references to "ministries" are examples of this undesirable "clericalization." The ordained have their obligations and powers, while the laity have separate duties. Our "duties" are better called just that -- "duties" -- or "functions" or "services" or "apostolates," the Church is telling us -- but not "ministries."

If we lay folks are going to pray for each other so that we may be free from the influence of satan, then let us just simply "pray." We don't have to give this activity a fancy name ("deliverance") or to refer to some aspect of it as a "ministry." Sorry, Theresa, if my basically negative position on all this comes as a shock to you, but I feel very strongly about it!

You asked: "If you were in a situation, would you be able to recognize the difference between a need for exorcism, and a need for deliverance from a lesser stronghold, say a 'lying spirit'?"
My friend, I have a strong "gut reaction" against this question. A "deliverance"? A "lesser stronghold"? A "lying spirit"? These are not things about which the Church teaches or commands us. I believe that the subject matter of your question is not our concern as laity. Whether a troubled person needs an exorcism or not is something to be decided only by a priest-exorcist -- to whom the troubled person is referred. We laity should keep our proper distance from these matters, except to simply pray for the spiritual health of everyone, especially those who are particularly troubled already.

I realize, Theresa, that what I have said probably marked the end of our conversation, but that's all right. I don't mind, as long as we understand each other.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 21, 2002.

John, I appreciate your frankness and integrity. Thank you. Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (RodnTee4Jesus@aol.com), July 22, 2002.

John, not to beat a dead horse (12days!), but you wrote:

"My friend, I have a strong "gut reaction" against this question. A "deliverance"? A "lesser stronghold"? A "lying spirit"? These are not things about which the Church teaches or commands us. I believe that the subject matter of your question is not our concern as laity. Whether a troubled person needs an exorcism or not is something to be decided only by a priest-exorcist -- to whom the troubled person is referred."

I am concerned that you make such a statement, concidering the two texts discussed (which in my opinion were easily found on the web, and with a little more research you might find some better, more explicit statements). These are certianly words that every Catholic should hold if not in the forfront of their vocabulary, than at least in their back pocket. When the end times come it will be of the utmost improtants that we as Catholics know what we can/cannot and/or should/should not do. By the way - we all pray a prayer of deliverance during mass "... and deliver us from evil. Amen"

Imagine that your own son was *obsessed* (or even posessed for that matter). Would you search for the exorsist, and then just sit with your ears and eyes closed until he comes? Or would you search for the exorsist, get on your knees and PRAY for the deliverance of your child from evil, and for the priest! If it were my son or daughter I would choose the latter!

That is not to say - you will perform the exorcism, you might not even deliver the child! But the Lord hers our prayers - even if the evil spirit ignores them.

It seems to me that you are concerned for my mother because this whole "deliverance" thing is quite new for you. Or quite possibly, the fact that my mother is new on the forum, and you don't exactly know where she stands as a Catholic (especially with all this new vocabulary that some are not so familiar with). I hope you can realize that none of us know all the logistics of the faith, and that we can ALL learn from eachother. I can testify to you that my mother is just as "Catholic" as any of the regulars here on the forum. And with a little research, you should be able to find more and more info on the information discussed.

Thank you for your patience.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), July 22, 2002.

Please accept my apologies for such terrible spelling. I’m in a huge rush today at work. Thanks.

-- jake huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), July 22, 2002.

Jmj

Hi, Jake. Thanks for writing. It gives me a chance to correct several misconceptions that you have about me -- and to accomplish other tasks as well.
Before reading the rest, I strongly recommend that you re-read the entire thread, so that you can be reminded of what took place in what order, who wrote what, etc..

You correctly quoted me as having stated to your mother: "A 'deliverance'? A 'lesser stronghold'? A 'lying spirit'? These are not things about which the Church teaches or commands us. I believe that the subject matter of your question is not our concern as laity. Whether a troubled person needs an exorcism or not is something to be decided only by a priest-exorcist -- to whom the troubled person is referred" [by his/her pastor].

Then you stated: "I am concerned that you make such a statement, concidering the two texts discussed (which in my opinion were easily found on the web, and with a little more research you might find some better, more explicit statements)."

Jake, I am not the one who has been making statements in favor of something called "deliverance prayer" and "deliverance ministry." I asked for Vatican documents to be quoted -- documents that would name and describe "deliverance" (what it consists of, who may get involved, what are its limits, etc.). It was not my responsibility to do "a little more research" to "find some better, more explicit statements." That research needed to be done by you and your mother, who promoted "deliverance" as something legitimate. I am still waiting for a Vatican text to be quoted that talks about "deliverance ministry" -- or (preferably) for you and your mother to say that you have made a mistake because you cannot find such a document.

Jake, I don't know what you mean by referring to "two texts discussed." If you just re-read this thread, you will see that there have been a lot of "writings" (texts?) discussed:
(1) I was the one who first quoted from the 1984 (or 1985) Vatican CDF letter on July 9 -- just before your mother made her first post. [Is this one of the "two texts" you mentioned?] That Vatican letter never mentions "deliverance" or a "ministry" thereof.
(2) You or your mother quoted from writings of a Fr. Sears (which speak approvingly of something called "deliverance"). Is this one of the "two texts" you mentioned? If so, I must say that I did not recognize the Sears comments as authoritative, since they do not come from the Magisterium. I even showed that he made an inaccurate statement.
(3) You provided a link to a "Catholic Charismatic Center" page, which spoke approvingly of something called "deliverance." Is this one of the "two texts" you mentioned? If so, I again did not recognize this page as authoritative, since it did not come from the Magisterium. The page refers to a 2000 Vatican document on healing, as if the document has something to do with "deliverance." Is that Vatican document one of the "two texts" you mentioned? If so, I must repeat that the Vatican document never says anything about "deliverance."
(4) Your mother copied some words that she received from Fr. Hampsch, who speaks of "deliverance." Is this one of the "two texts" you mentioned? Father quoted the entire 1984/85 letter (which I had already found and quoted [as stated in #1, above]). Again I have to say that the Vatican letter says nothing about "deliverance."

Jake, I referred to the words/phrases, "deliverance" and "lesser stronghold" and "lying spirit," as "not things about which the Church teaches or commands us." To this comment, you replied:
"These are certainly words that every Catholic should hold if not in the forefront of their vocabulary, than at least in their back pocket."

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. If these things were so vital, the Church would be teaching about them very frequently and prominently. But you cannnot quote any Vatican document in which these concepts are taught or in which something called "deliverance" is defined and promoted.

Jake, you continued: "When the end times come it will be of the utmost importance that we as Catholics know what we can/cannot and/or should/should not do."
I was pretty shocked when I read this, as it hints that you lean toward a sort of Fundamentalist Protestant thinking -- a preoccupation with "the end times." The fact that the world will end some day has no bearing on whether or not Catholics today should be dabbling in areas that the Church has reserved to specially trained and qualified priests alone. This is my key position in this thread -- that we must avoid the clericalization of the laity by trying to turn them into amateur exorcists.

You continued:
"By the way - we all pray a prayer of deliverance during mass '... and deliver us from evil. Amen'"

It is correct that we pray those words, Jake, but we say them to ask for protection from the influence of satan, not to cause "group exorcisms." Those words are not labeled with the term "prayer of deliverance" or made part of something called a "deliverance ministry." That is my other key point in this thread. It is not up to priests or laymen to invent and label things like this, but rather to accept what the Magisterium gives us.

Jake, what I have noticed, for almost 20 years, is that there have been serious problems in what is called the "Catholic Charismatic Renewal" movement -- a tendency toward disobedience of Church law (e.g., in the liturgy) ... a constant pushing for independence (exhibited in a lack of respect for episcopal authority) ... a drawing of unreliable elements (possibly including "deliverance"?) from the "sister movement" called Protestant Pentecostalism, etc..
Some elements of the "Catholic Charismatic Renewal" [CCR] movement have had to be strongly disciplined by the Church. I think that it is quite possible that another disciplining will be required some day soon -- this one banning what you are calling "deliverance ministry."

You wrote as though all Catholics ought to be aware of "deliverance." I think that I have shown otherwise. I notice that Fr. Sears wrote: "Actually, the deliverance ministry has been fairly orderly in the [Charismatic] Renewal in the United States." The fact is, Jake, that "deliverance ministry" is unknown in Catholicism outside the relatively small CCR movement. And I am very thankful for that fact, because I am now convinced that "deliverance ministry," as practiced, consists of illicit, amateur attempts at exorcism. [Please realize that I am not condemning the whole CCR movement, which I know is followed by many decent people. I only reject a fringe group in CCR that brings to it a bad influence and bears bad fruit.]

You stated: "Imagine that your own son was *obsessed* (or even posessed for that matter). Would you search for the exorcist, and then just sit with your ears and eyes closed until he comes? Or would you search for the exorcist, get on your knees and PRAY for the deliverance of your child from evil, and for the priest! If it were my son or daughter I would choose the latter!"

In the first place, Jake, I would not know whether or not my son was obsessed or possessed. Neither would you. That is a decision only for the exorcist to make. But I am pretty shocked by your implication that, just because I reject the unofficial concept of "deliverance ministry," I would fail to pray for the recovery of my son while waiting for the exorcist's diagnosis. What I stated in at least one previous post should have shown you that I most certainly would be praying earnestly for my son. But ... there is no need to label that prayer as "deliverance." It would simply be "intercessory prayer." The Church teaches us to assume first that such manifestations are from a physical or psychological malady -- not from a demonic source. You seem to want to do the opposite -- making an amateur layman's diagnosis of demonic activity. That is both unwise and illicit.

You continued: "That is not to say [that] you will perform the exorcism, you might not even deliver the child!"

Jake, it is not right to speak of me, as a parent, being able to "deliver the child" if he is possessed/obsessed. The Church never uses such language. To "deliver" means, literally (from the Latin), to "free from." The implication is that the child is enslaved to the devil and that I as a lay parent am able to "free" him "from" that devil. Here again we would see the layman acting as an amateur exorcist. It is wrong to think and speak this way.

You continued: "It seems to me that you are concerned for my mother because this whole 'deliverance' thing is quite new for you. Or quite possibly, the fact that my mother is new on the forum, and you don't exactly know where she stands as a Catholic (especially with all this new vocabulary that some are not so familiar with). ... I can testify to you that my mother is just as "Catholic" as any of the regulars here on the forum."

I think that, by now, Jake, you realize where I am really coming from on this matter. I can see that your mother is a fervent, well-intentioned Catholic -- just as you are. I just believe that she and you have gotten yourselves mixed up with some people who have been misled and are now misleading both of you -- in a movement that has a "fringe element" that is "playing with fire." I am trying to help you two avoid being burned in a most serious and painful way.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 23, 2002.

blessings John! "the love of Christ impels me" {11 Cor. 5:14} to jump back in with a few thoughts.. please indulge, I'm exercizing {not exorcizing!!} your patience! ..first with some words on Fr. Hampsch's words, and then some comments on the charismatic renewal.

I appreciate the fact that you like 'resolve', I used to have that urge too, until I realized that many times Godly things take time to arrive at,many truths are only fully revealed to us as we are ready to receive them. Thankfully God is patient with us and works with us, getting us ready to receive Him ultimately face to face! {this of course is sanctification, which begins right now as we speak, taking us through that wonderful time of mercy we call purgatory, right up into His kingdom! }

I found myself at Mass on Monday {btw, I heard a wonderful talk on Mary Magdalene, it being her feast day, she is the patron of contemplatives, as she waited for her Lord for three days, not being distracted, even by angels!!}, anyway, at Mass, I found myself pondering our conversation, and sighing, "Oh Lord, purify my heart, keep me from deceit!". And I had to smile to myself knowing any interaction leading us to 'know, love, seek, and serve' our Lord, and cling to Him, is good.He will guide us John.

We are thankful for the recent clarification by the pope, that we don't blur the distinction between the clergy and laity. We meet much frustration at times, at least here in Calif. when we still see weak pastors sitting on the side while women are distributing Communion. But that's another subject.

May I propose that you re-read Fr. Hampsch's comments 'non-formal prayers of deliverance may be used by laity in the deliverance ministry...' and 'this has been further extended in the more recent document accompanying the new ritual of exorcisms..' {would you like to find that particular document for us?}, and finally, Jesus' words in Mark 16:17, "These signs will accompany those who believe in my name, they will drive out demnons, they will speak new languages". Fr. Hampsch, will celebrate 50 years in the priesthood in Sept. He's no flake. He's met with the Holy Father many times.

Speaking of our precious John Paul 11.. he has actively encouraged the faithful and the clergy to become involved in the charismatic renewal, calling it a 'breath of fresh air' for the church.In 1975, Pope Paul v1 personally invited the renewal to hold its annual conference in Rome. Pope J.P. 11 met with 2000 'charismatic' priests in 2000. Many bishops from all over the world have written pastoral statements supporting and encouraging the renewal.

John, this is not foolish argumentation. I'm just suggesting to be open to the Holy Spirit. This renewal is at the heart fo the Church. It is not a fringe group of renegades. I personally testify, witness, to the AFFECT it has had on many lives, changing them from literally 'dead' Catholics,who don't know their faith, to vibrant lives, on fire with the zeal to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. I myself was delivered [there's that word again} from spiritual blindness, a life of sin, to a hunger for holiness, to a 'love relationship ' with Jesus, to a zeal to read the scriptures, and a love to witness to others about Chrit's love, through the charisms of the Holy Spirit. It's exactly that, a renewal of Pentecost! .. and not forgetting to mention my deliverance from such strongholds of anger and fear! Read 2 Corinthians 10:4, the word "strongholds" is another word for arguments and pretentions, we all have them if we look closely!. God bless you today, in His real, wonderful, Presence. Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), July 24, 2002.

Jmj

Hi, Theresa. Thank you.
You suggested that I "be open to the Holy Spirit." I promise you that I do pray for the help of the Holy Spirit, and I trust that he has been guiding me in what I have written to you here. I would ask you to consider the possibility that, when someone disagrees with you, it does not automatically mean that that person is wrong and needs the Holy Spirit's help. Please consider that the other person may be offering a message from the Holy Spirit to you.

Speaking of the "Catholic Charismatic Renewal" movement, you wrote, "This renewal is at the heart of the Church. It is not a fringe group of renegades."

I can see that you misunderstood what I wrote. Here are my words from previous messages:
(1) "I think that I am justifiably worried that some folks may be practicing and recommending something improper to 'Catholic Charismatics' ..." [Note that I did not criticize "Catholic Charismatics," but said that they are being misled from the outside (or perhaps by a bad minority element inside).]

(2) "... there have been serious problems in what is called the 'Catholic Charismatic Renewal' movement ... Some elements of the ... movement have had to be strongly disciplined by the Church." [Note that I did not condemn the whole movement, but referred to troublesome "elements" that caused trouble "in" the movement.]

(3) "Please realize that I am not condemning the whole CCR movement, which I know is followed by many decent people. I only reject a fringe group in CCR that brings to it a bad influence and bears bad fruit." [I intentionally added this comment last time, Theresa, to prevent you from misunderstanding me. That's why I was so greatly surprised, then, that you misunderstood me anyway and became very defensive. I hope that you can now clearly see that I am not attacking you or your movement as a whole. I have your best interests at heart.]

Now, turning to another subject you raised. You stated: "May I propose that you re-read Fr. Hampsch's comments 'non-formal prayers of deliverance may be used by laity in the deliverance ministry...' and 'this has been further extended in the more recent document accompanying the new ritual of exorcisms..' {would you like to find that particular document for us?}, and finally, Jesus' words in Mark 16:17, 'These signs will accompany those who believe in my name, they will drive out demnons, they will speak new languages.' Fr. Hampsch, will celebrate 50 years in the priesthood in Sept. He's no flake."

Theresa, I am puzzled that you would as me if I "would ... like to find that particular document for us?"
It is your personal contact, Fr. Hampsch, who is referring to that Vatican document as (allegedly) supporting his statements. Why, then, would you not get the text of the document from Fr. Hampsch, rather than asking me to find it? Remember, please, that I have been asking you to present actual Vatican texts, for the last two weeks, approving or and describing a "deliverance ministry."

Now, just now you partially quoted one sentence from Fr. Hampsch. His full sentence was: "This has been further extended in the more recent document accompanying the new ritual of exorcism, in which qualified laity may participate with a priest, even in exorcisms (not just prayers for deliverance, as Jesus taught us to pray, in the Our Father, 'Deliver us from the evil one.'"

Theresa, I believe that Fr. Hampsch is wrong. I sincerely hope that he is simply mistaken, rather than deliberately deceptive. I told you previously that I respect him because I have never heard him make a dissident comment when interviewed. However, I have always had serious concerns (for two reasons) about whether or not I could trust Fr. Hampsch. One is too personal to state publicly here, but the other is the fact that he belongs to a religious congregation (Claretian) that is notorious for doctrinal dissent.

Now, what about the document to which Fr. Hampsch refers? The "document accompanying the new ritual of exorcism" -- contrary to what Fr. Hampsch claimed -- does NOT say that "qualified laity may participate with a priest, even in exorcisms." The new ritual and its accompanying document -- which were released by Cardinal Medina Estevez (Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) in January 1999 -- have not yet been made available in English. I have seen the (Italian) document at the Vatican Internet site -- and I found, within it, the one sentence to which Fr. Hampsch is referring (wrongly). I also found an English translation (from l'Osservatore Romano) of the press conference at which Cardinal Medina released the ritual and document. I could tell that he was reading parts of the document, so here is how he delivered the key section, including the key sentence:
"The Ritual we are presenting today contains, first of all, the [new] rite of exorcism properly so-called, to be performed on a possessed person [by a priest appointed as exorcist].
"This is followed by the prayers to be publicly recited by a priest, with the Bishop's permission, when it has been carefully determined that there is a satanic influence over places, objects or persons, but which has not reached the point of a true and proper possession.
"Also, there is a collection of prayers to be recited privately by the faithful whenever they have reason to suspect they are undergoing diabolical influence.

Theresa, you can now see why I stated that Fr. Hampsch was wrong. In the document, there is no talk of "qualified laity ... participat[ing] with a priest, even in exorcisms." Rather, the new book -- after the rituals for exorcists and priests -- simply has prayers that each of us laypersons may use privately if we should "have a firm basis to suspect that we are being subjected to a diabolical influence" [my translation of the document's Italian]. And there is not one word about a "deliverance ministry" in this document.

I have to be completely frank with you, Theresa, intending no offense. My strong impression is that certain people in the CCR movement (including, unfortunately, Fr. Hampsch) are so deeply committed to this "deliverance ministry" that they have invented (or picked up from Protestant Pentecostalism) that they "bend the truth" and pretend that the Vatican has sanctioned their efforts -- when, in fact, it has not.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 24, 2002.

John,

I would like to see Magisterial proof that such efforts on the part of the laity is actually *against* Church teaching. Although, as you point out, the Magisterium doesn't sanction the actions outlined by Fr. Hampsch or my mother, the Church doesn't explicitly condemn the "deliverance ministry" either, as you seem to presuppose. Now, I am very curious because I have looked quite a bit, and the Church doesn't necessarily forbid the laity from praying deliverance prayers (not to be confused with formal prayers of exorcism), nor does She even forbid the laity from involvement in the exorcism, like intercessory prayer for the Priest doing the exorcism! I will continue to look for the documents to support your critique, yet would suggest you not subjecticise your comments without Magisterial proof. My mother, although seemingly late, gave you the document that she feels justifies her cause. But there really has been no evidence explicitly for OR against it. Which by default does NOT make it anti-Catholic.

I remember reading a Vatican document (which unfortunately I cannot find at the present - so you can refute this if you like) to which the Magisterium states the following (in my own words of course): If the Magisterium hasn't specifically taught on a certain subject, they (the Magisterium) requires that the laity use their Catholic, well developed conscience to make a prudent decision. I think this stems from St. Thomas Aquinas' three-font principle (which actually makes for a good post - I will add it in after this). In most situations this IS the case! Just because the Church doesn't teach something perpetually or even at all doesn't make it anti-Catholic or dissenting or fringe or whatever. There are only a handful of Magisterial documents on birth control (Casti Connubii and Humanae Vitae are two) which are just as clear as the other document about deliverance. Birth control is a very important Catholic issue but the Church (Magisterium) doesn't speak of it all the time. In fact very few Catholics practice it (and some, who know all the Magisterial documents, justify their defile of Church teaching), which doesn't make the teaching non-Catholic.

I would also like to comment on your attitude toward research. You think that because my mother had posted the first post on "deliverance" that she is the one that HAS to look up all the evidence. If I were in the same situation, being the curious one, I would be more than excited to do my own personal research (and if needs be look for the Magisterial "okay" myself). You seem to want to find proof pretty urgently, yet you didn't want to do any leg work. I find that uncharitable.

You also found a document in Italian to which you stated: "Theresa, you can now see why I stated that Fr. Hampsch was wrong."

You stated this without even knowing whether or not this is indeed what Fr. Hampsch was talking about. Please, let's at least wait to find out what he meant before we label the guy an heretic. "Prayers of deliverance" just like "intercessory prayer" or "prayers of thanksgiving" I'm sure do not need to be sanctioned by the Magisterium in order to be said. Let’s be honest, do you move only when the Magisterium says move? This is not to belittle the Magisterium (emphasis). However, it should point out to you that the Magisterium cannot teach on everything (it is impossible, because situations and events change the surroundings of certain issues - which is where St. Thomas A's 3-font principle comes into play).

This post may sound defensive, and I feel that it should because the integrity of both my mother and Fr. Hampsch seem to be assaulted with very little backing.

It is my understanding that you don't really know much about the Charismatic Renewal, or have been biased by some people who have given it a bad name. Likewise, it is my understanding that you know very little about my mother, her associates, and Fr. Hampsch. And without justifiable Magisterial documentation against the deliverance ministry and deliverance prayer you are making such comments as to liken what they are doing to "fringe groups" or heretics for that matter, which is certainly not true.

Before this thread becomes a battle ground, I would like to say this: It is clear that there is some misunderstandings between everyone! At the root of it, I believe that my mother, Fr. Hampsch, and you, John all believe the same exact thing. I'm sure Fr. Hampsch would completely agree that there must be boundaries to limit the laity from, say, performing their own exorcisms, or believing that they don't need a priest. However, you must also realize that the Magisterium has NOT condemned the deliverance ministry (which it most assuredly would - like most other condemned violations of Church teaching). Therefore, I think it would be best to revamp, possible reread the thread, reread all the entailing documents, and definitely research on our own before making any unnecessary condemnations of either opinion. At the very heart of all our intentions are to be the very best Catholic we can be, to constantly conform to the Pope and the Magisterium, and to be loving to one another. If the documentation that all of us can come up with compels us to be justified in our differing beliefs, then so be it. Without more specific documentation it would be uncharitable, and most definitely against Church teaching to say that one is wrong and one is right.

Thank you for your time.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), July 24, 2002.

Jake, you have just "blown my mind" with your post. It is so full of mistakes and injustices that I don't know where to begin. This is all so unlike you that it puts me in a state of shock. I think the problem is that, since this involves your mother, and since you (wrongly) perceive that I am attacking her, you are in "pure emotion" mode -- with real thinking suspended.

If I decide that it would be worth replying, I will have to try to do it tomorrow, because this is too big a task to try to tackle tonight. I have to get up early. I may not reply though, because I don't think that your mind and heart are open to accept what I have to say, even though it would be 100% right.

God bless you.
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 25, 2002.

With love, John, it also blows my mind what you have said. My emotions have not yet overcome my intelect. And, in all honesty it doesn't really feel as though you have thoroghly read through the posts placed by my mother and I. For the answeres to many of the questions you had asked are already up on the thread! It is merely subjective to say that what you are going to post is 100% correct, because no one is/was/or ever will be 100% correct in their Faith except for Mary and Jesus! And furthermore, the fact that, as you would agree, the Magisterium has not put forth a very explicative document in regards to the laity and their role in deliverance (not exorcism), it is simply impossible to extract what they ment (100% correctly), unless it comes directly from them. As Fr. Hampsch had noted, this document has been broadly interpreted by Bishops to mean what he had posted.

I do truly respect your intelect, and your posts imho are the very best along with Chris B's. However, on this particular issue, there just isn't enough evidence in either case to really support a "right" or "wrong" answere. The documents discussed in this thread have been used by you, my mother, and Fr. Hampsch to support both sides. How is it possible to say that your interpretation is correct when that is all it is; an interpretation? This is exactly what the protestants do with the bible! I understand that it is hard to swallow these spiritual issues without express written consent or guidance of the Magisterium, but the laity cannot just sit on thier hands awaiting the Magisterium in each and every issue or combinaion of issues known to man, and the Magisterium recognizes this.

Like I had said in the last paragraph of my last post: I think at this time it is appropriate to take some time to collect our thoughts, review what has been posted, and do a lot of praying for guidance (as it has not yet been given - at least clearly - by the Magisterium).

Once agin, I would like you to know that I deeply respect your opinion. However, next to my mother and her friends, and our priests, I don't really know you (spiritually). And this necessitates my possition on this issue.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), July 26, 2002.

..let's listen to what Gamaliel said, a Pharisee in the Sanhedrin, in the book of acts, chapter 5:38,39 "For if this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself. But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourself fighting against God".

Peace!! Fear not!! In Jesus, Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (RodnTee4Jesus@aol.com), July 26, 2002.

no-one,can ,u cannot remove something thats not there ,get real ,people its just people frightening them selves ,there is no heaven-so there is no hell .get lives

-- francis fitzgerald (frankyfitzgerald@hotmail.com), September 03, 2002.

no-u, that,s a pretty good ,argument. u ,francis-thank you,

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 03, 2002.

Emerald'

it, very good u-ecumenical, francis out_reach you. work, the up, keep good!

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), September 03, 2002.

franK, plz be pashint with me ,u . cuz I am tying a balance a sense humor with chairity. u , know it is hard to, be funny a be chair/table , a the smae time.

i like to try to keep a sense humor, cuz that.s the way ,uhuh uhuh, i like it ,uhuh uhuh .

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 03, 2002.

See, now I'm in trouble with my wife here for being mean. lol! Sorry francis, just teasing.

But look, I don't know how to respond to you accept to posit that there in fact is a Heaven and a Hell. What else can I say?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 03, 2002.

'except', I mean, not 'accept'... sorry , u =)

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 03, 2002.

Emerald,

I'm shocked, truly I am! After saying that you were sorry for making fun of him you draw a "smiley" with two eighth notes over it? How rude can one get, what were you trying to say, that his tank is only 1/4 full? Shocking, truly shocking.

4/4Frank uuuu;-)

P.S. I do understand one thing though, a long work day and an unhappy wife are not conditions conducive to happiness...

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), September 03, 2002.