Jmj

Today, August 7, we members of the Catholic Church family honor, in a special way, the following friends of God -- saints whose souls are now in heaven:

Bl. Agathangelus of Vendôme and Bl. Cassian of Nantes (French, Capuchin friars, missionaries in Egypt and Ethiopia, martyred by stoning in 1638 [beatified 1905])
St. Albert of Trapani (Sicilian, Carmelite priest, d. 1306)
St. Cajetan of Thienna [Gaetano dei Conti di Tiene] (Italian, nobleman, lawyer, priest at age 36, co-founder of Congregation of Clerks Regular [Theatines], d. 1547)
Sts. Carpophorus, Exanthus, Cassius, Severinus, Secundus, and Licinius (Italian, soldiers, martyred c. 295)
St. Claudia (British, matron in Rome, 1st century)
St. Dometius and two companions (Persian, monk and disciples, martyred by stoning in 4th century)
St. Donatian of Châlons-sur-Marne (French, bishop, 4th century?)
St. Donatus of Besançon (French, Benedictine monk, bishop, c. 650)
Sts. Donatus and Hilarinus (Italian, bishop and monk, 4th century)
St. Faustus of Milan (Italian, soldier, martyred c. 190)
St. Hyperechios (Egyptian, early desert hermit)
Bl. Jordan Forzatei [Giordano] (Italian, Benedictine abbot, d. 1248)
Sts. Peter, Julian, and at least 18 companions (Roman, men and women, martyred c. 260)
Pope St. Sixtus II (Greek, philosopher, deacon in Rome, elected to papacy in 257 [named in Eucharistic Prayer I], reigned until martyred by beheading with at least four deacons in 258)
St. Victricius of Rouen (Roman?, soldier, missionary in France, bishop, c. 409)
Bl. Vincent of Aquila (Italian, Franciscan brother, mystic, d. 1504)

If you have anything to share about these holy people, please reply now -- biographical episodes, prayers through their intercession, the fact that one is your patron saint -- whatever moves you. If you are interested in one of these saints and want to find out more about him/her, please ask. Information is sometimes available on the Internet.

All you holy men and women, saints of God, pray for us.
God bless you.
John


-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 25, 2002

Answers

-- (_@_._), August 09, 2002.

Job:15:15: Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

2 question to you here. 1. If God puts no trust in His saints, either in heaven or on earth, how could you honor someone whom He puts no trust in and as the scripture clearly points out, that it is the saints in heaven He is speaking about, because heaven is the home of the saints. And futher more what gives you the right to tell others to do this?

-- Candice (ctmohamed@msn.com), October 12, 2002.

Jmj

Hello, Candice.
I'm sorry that you have harmed this thread with such an error-filled comment.

I suggest that you should have looked into the context of the verse you quoted (Job 15:15) before spouting off. You would have found that the statement was made by Eliphaz the Temanite -- not by God or Job. Eliphaz was angrily replying to Job here, and you should not misinterpret his words nor judge them to be without error.

First, when Eliphaz refers to "saints" or "holy ones," I don't believe that he not referring to Catholic saints -- men and women whose souls are now in heaven. Regardless of his meaning, there is simply no reason for God to lack "trust" in perfected souls of Catholic saints -- since they can do know evil.
And do you, Candice, really agree with Eliphaz's comment that "the heavens are not clean"? If "the heavens" include the abode of God, then at least the highest "heaven" (where the Catholic saints' souls abide) most certainly is "clean."

You stated: "And futher more what gives you the right to tell others to do this?"
To do what? Whatever it is that I am doing and that you object to, can you please quote the law to me that prohibits my doing it?

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 17, 2002.

Ouch! I forgot to proofread before posting.
It should have been "... since they can do no evil" (rather than "since they can do know evil").
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 17, 2002.

Dear John,

First of all, the catholic church was not in existence in the O. T. so he definitely was not talking about catholics. Secondly the highest heaven is definitely not reserved for catholics. It is for the Israelites - The Jews. From Genesis to Revelation, God's first love is for His people the Israelites / Jews. Thirdly, the order of heaven is not catholic first then everyone else but Jews first, and everyone else coming second. Rev 7:4: And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5: Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6: Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7: Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8: Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousandand Definitely not the place for (where the Catholic saints' souls abide) Then we, you and me - the Gentiles come second. Rev 7:9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And as to weather or not I believe that the heavens are unclean, yes I do believe they are. When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, it not only corrupted mankind, but all of creation as well. It has been documented the even the animals do "strange things." And the weather doesn't even work the way God intended it either. What I am saying here is, nothing is as the way God intended for it to be before the fall of man. Rv:21:1: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. But, the heaven where God lives, the highest heaven, this is perfect, without any uncleanness. It has to be. This is also the heaven where ALL who have died in righteousness, O.T. and ALL who have died in Christ N.T. reside. Not just for righteous Catholics. The Word of God, speaks about different heavens. A first heaven and a third heaven, strangely enough I could not find any mention of a second heaven. 2Cor:12:2: I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And Rv:21:1: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. The point I am trying to make here is - I'm not going to hurt my head trying to figure where exactly in the first and third heavens that the righteous abide. So don't try to debate this with me. And finally to quote the law that prevents you from doing this - praying to the saints, and advising others to do so, Law one. Deut:4:2: Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Law 2. Deut:12:32: What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. Law 3. Rv:22:18: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), October 19, 2002.

And there is another law that I would like to add-Jn:14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. Selah.

-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), October 21, 2002.

It is unfortunate that the catholic church, has succeeded in totally demoting the human being, whom God has in His awesome wisdom and splendor, chosen to create us in His image and in His likeness-- Gen:1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion (power, authority, control) over the fish of the(men) sea, and over the fowl of the air,(spirits) and over the cattle, and over all the earth, (nature)and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.(animals) The catholic church has gone out of its' way to bring God's holy creation, us to the point where countless millions of their followers believe that they are not good enough to approach God themselves in prayer, but have to depend on dead saints to do so for them. They totally disqualify the fact that Jesus Christ died to restore us to the Father. Lk:1:68: Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed (bought back)His people, Gal:3:13: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Rv:5:9: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, and that His death was to restore to us a perfect relationship with our God. Jesus paid with His life, and with every drop of His precious blood to restore mankind to God. It is unfortunate, that they have taught their people to pray to the dead saints- yes I know the trick explanation-dead on earth but alive in Christ in heaven.- But we the saints on earth, - and the Word of God calls the believers, saints throughout the entire bible. Deut:33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (here the Israelites, are called saints, while they were alive and on this earth) Acts:9:32: And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda. (dwelt hear meaning living in a house on earth) Acts:26:10: Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. ( Here Paul proves that the saints are alive on earth, because he goes on to say that he put them to death.).- we the saints of earth are also are alive in Christ 1Cor:15:22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. Do you not see that God, has chosen to call His children on the earth, saints? Do you not see that a person does not have to have a miracle produced by God and through their hands to be called a saint? Open your eyes, and your ears and see child of the Most High God. Your Father in heaven calls you a saint. What right does the catholic church have to demote the rest of mankind into believing that they are not good enough to be called a saint? Child of the Most High God, open your bibles, see for yourselves how many times God calls His children, you, saint. Don't allow religion and tradition to determine your relationship with God. Get your bibles learn God's laws see for yourselves that He wants you for Himself. Ex:34:14: For thou shalt worship no other god- - (Ps 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; all of you are children of the Most High God. Jn:10:34: Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? Here God is calling us gods)-- for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. God wants you for Himself, every moment you spend praying to Mary and to the saints in heaven, every moment you spend honoring other gods is a moment you spend apart from your God. 1Cor:10:22: Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? He does not want you praying to the saints, otherwise He would have said so. Nowhere in the entire bible do you find any of God's powerful men and women calling on those who have gone before. Moses did not call on Abraham. Joshua did not call on Moses. Paul did not call on Elijah. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter not one of them called on the dead saints of the past to intercede for them. I assure you, my brother and sister in Christ, there is only One who is able to intercede for us in heaven. His name is Jesus Christ. Rom:8:26: Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Rom:8:34: Who is He that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Heb:7:25: Wherefore He-Christ- is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them. The power and the miracles that God did in the lives of the saints was determined by their personal one-on-one relationship, with Him, the Most High God. Their Father. Your Father. God, calls each one of us to a relationship with Him. Just you, and Him. Rom:6:8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Gal:2:20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.Gal:5:1: Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Col:3:1: If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Your relationship is to be with God, in Christ only! God does not want you praying to the dead saints nor does He want you talking to dead saints. In fact He commands it. Deut 18: 10: There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,11: Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. (necromancy--method of divination through invocation of the dead-- Webster's College Dictionary): For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Your relationship is to be with Him only, and only through Jesus Christ. Jn:20:31: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life (live)through His name. Do you not know that YOU are the righteous saints of God.? Rom:3:22: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ (given)unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference. God Himself, calls you righteous, what right then does the catholic church have to say that you are not? What right do they have to make you believe that you are not good enough, not righteous, to go to God and to get his help. The Word of God, says that in Jesus Christ you are worthy. The blood of Jesus paid for your sins to make you worthy. Eph:1:7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Col:1:14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: If you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord, your Savior, your Redeemer, if you are living your lives according to the laws of the Most High God, if you believe that Salvation is yours, not because of the good that you do, but by faith in what Christ has done,-- Rom:1:16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 1Thes:5:9: For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, --then get up, look at yourselves in the mirror, and say what God calls you. Say it to the top of your lungs. I am the righteousness of God in Christ! Begin living that way-God's way-- Jesus' Way. 2Cor:5:21: For He hath made Him-Christ-- to be sin for us, (me)who knew no sin; that we ( I ) might be made the righteousness of God in him. Learn ALL of God's laws. Learn who you are in Christ. Learn for yourself. Do not take what the catholic church, or anyone else have taught you as law. Don't believe it because I have written it, believe it because it is the Word of God, and it is His Law. God's Word is Law and it is final. It cannot and will never change Mt:24:35: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my Words (My Law) shall not pass away. & Lk:21:33: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My Word, (My Law) shall not pass away. Learn the Word of God, thoroughly, inside and out. Learn God's laws for yourselves. The bible is God's law for how you are to live your life. Live as Christ did. Love as Christ loved. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons. Do all that Jesus did, and in the name of Jesus. Now that I have presented the truth to you, it is for you to decide what your are going to do. Are you going to believe God's teachings, or are you going to believe the teachings of the catholic church? But remember one thing as you decide because God says, Deut:30:19: I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. Selah.

-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), October 23, 2002.

Candice, if you really knew how Catholics pray (and why), you would not have posted that long-winded malarkey. First learn the truth about what we believe and how we practice the Christian faith. Only then you may be in a position to question or criticize. But don't attack Catholics from your present position of utter ignorance. In fact, "attacking" us from any position is against the rules of the forum.
You are starting from a horrible disadvantage -- actually trusting in the false principle of "sola scriptura." You are trusting in your own private, unguided interpretation of the Bible (and the Bible only). This results in errors and gaps (galore) in your thinking.
Keep reading here in the archives, and you will learn. But please don't post any more until you can learn to follow the rules.
Thanks. JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 26, 2002.

Dear J.F.G Just what is "sola scriptura" anyway? Candice

-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), December 07, 2002.

Candice, please look at my previous post. I urged you, "Keep reading here in the archives, and you will learn." I don't think that you have been reading, because you would know what "sola scriptura" is.

The words are Latin for "scripture alone." This false principle states (1) that the Bible is the sole source of the truths of Christianity and (2) that each person can successfully perform unguided interpretation of the Bible, because any guidance would be an additional (and fallible) source of information.

Please have a look at this essay, which (among other things) explains why "sola scriptura" is wrong.

Right now, we are discussing this matter on a "saints-of-the-day" thread, which is an inappropriate place for this. Please start a new thread here, if you want to discuss this or another topic. Please be aware of the fact that this is a Catholic forum, and Catholic-bashing is forbidden here.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 08, 2002.

Dear John, First of all, let me apologize to you if you think that I am catholic- bashing. I am not. I simply want to point out to you that the Word of God is the Law of God and His will for our lives. When you take the time to read the Word of God, you are entering into the very presence of Who God is. The Word of God is what God in His infinite wisdom made man to write, to record, exactly the way He wanted it, to be put together and be called the Holy Bible. The Word of God. The fact that you are saying that God in His infinite wisdom, Who by His very Word(what He spoke), hung the stars and the suns and the worlds in the heavens, Who created man in His image and in His likeness, in Whom everything exists, The God Who says that He is the beginning and the end, The God who says that He hath searched time and eternity to find if there is any other like Himself and found none, The God Whom the cherubim and seraphim praise unceasingly saying Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty, The God Who said that He cannot lie, The God Who said that He is perfect, The God Who died to save His children; you are saying John that this God Who did all of this, when He caused man to pen His Word to paper, exactly the way He intended for it to be, that He made a mistake?! That His Word is incomplete, insufficient and lacking in many ways and that to live by this Word only is even wrong?! The fact that people could actually think and teach this is astounding to me beyond comprehension!!! May God forgive you and may He have mercy on your souls! Look around you John, everything you see, the sky, the moon the stars, the earth, the trees, birds, man(as we are at present), the animals the oceans the mountains, every doctrine and teaching that is outside the Word of God, will pass away. For it is all built on sinking sand. Matt 7:26 says that anything that is not built on The Rock, Who is Jesus Christ, is built on sinking sand. John, the Word of God, is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Word of God, the Holy Bible. I have just this to add. Proverbs 14:12 : There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Isaiah 55: 8: For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the LORD. 9: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. Luke :16:17: And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one title of the law to fail. Matt :24:35: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away. Jeremiah 12: Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I WILL hasten My word to perform it.

-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), December 19, 2002.

Candice, kindly stop this. I read the written Word of God EVERY DAY, as do millions of Catholics. Better yet, we receive the Incarnate Word of God, Jesus, at least once a week.

You are trashing this good thread, which is about certain saints. Please don't do it any more. If you have a question, an observation, or an objection to Catholicism, please express it by starting a new thread on this page.

Thanks. JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 19, 2002.

Dear John, I will yield to your request. Candice

-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), December 20, 2002.

Thank you, Candice. JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 20, 2002.

Jmj

On August 7, we members of the Catholic Church family honor, in a special way, the following friends of God -- saints and blesseds whose souls are now in heaven:

St. Cajetan dei Conti di Tiene of Vicenza [Gaetano] (Italian, nobleman, lawyer, priest at age 36, co-founder of Congregation of Clerks Regular [Theatines], d. 1547)
Pope St. Sixtus II (Greek, philosopher, deacon in Rome, elected to papacy in 257 [named in Eucharistic Prayer I], reigned until martyred by beheading with at least four deacons in 258)

Bl. Agathangelus of Vendôme and Bl. Cassian of Nantes (French, Capuchin friars, missionaries in Egypt and Ethiopia, martyred by stoning in 1638 [beatified 1905])
St. Albert of Trapani (Sicilian, Carmelite priest, d. 1306)
Sts. Carpophorus, Exanthus, Cassius, Severinus, Secundus, and Licinius (Italian, soldiers, martyred c. 295)
St. Claudia (British, matron in Rome, 1st century)
St. Dometius and two companions (Persian, monk and disciples, martyred by stoning in 4th century)
St. Donatian of Châlons-sur-Marne (French, bishop, 4th century?)
St. Donatus of Besançon (French, Benedictine monk, bishop, c. 650)
Sts. Donatus of Arezzo and Hilarinus of Ostia (Italian, bishop and monk, 4th century)
Bl. Edward Bamber of Carlton (English, priest, martyred [drawn, hanged, and quartered] at age 46 under Charles I in 1646 [beatified 1987])
St. Faustus of Milan (Italian, soldier, martyred c. 190)
St. Hyperechios (Egyptian, early desert hermit)
Bl. John Woodcock of Leyland [alias John Faringdon] (English, Franciscan priest, martyred [drawn, hanged, and quartered] at age 43 under Charles I in 1646 [beatified 1987])
Bl. Jordan Forzatei of Padua [Giordano] (Italian, Benedictine abbot, d. 1248)
Bl. Nicolas Postgate of Egton (English, priest, martyred at about age 79 under Charles II in 1679 [beatified 1987])
Sts. Peter, Julian, and at least 18 companions, of Rome (Italian, men and women, martyred c. 260)
Bl. Thomas Whitaker of Burnley (English, priest, martyred at about age 35 under Charles I in 1646 [beatified 1987])
St. Victricius of Rouen (Roman?, soldier, missionary in France, bishop, c. 409)
Bl. Vincent of Aquila [Vincenzo] (Italian, Franciscan brother, mystic, d. 1504)

If you have anything to share about these holy people, please reply now -- biographical episodes, prayers through their intercession, the fact that one is your patron -- whatever moves you. If you are interested in one of these saints or blesseds and want to find out more about him/her, please ask. Information is sometimes available on the Internet.

All you holy men and women, saints of God, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.

Candice, What is confusing for some people is what we, Roman Catholics, refer to as tradition.

The teachings of Christianity are much more that what is included in the Bible.

The Bible is a library of books, compiled to help teach people what is right and what is wrong in God's eyes.

If I was going to teach you how to be a lawyer. I would gather books on the penal code, code of civil procedure, code of criminal procedure, etc., but even if you memorized these books cover to cover, you would still need guidance in how to practice law.

The combined resources of the Church: the Bible, Canon law, Catechism, and instructions from the Church (such as papal encyclicals,) all help teach us HOW to be a Christian.

And John G., Welcome Back!!! (I should have said that sooner.) God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), August 07, 2003.