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God is perfect He is everliving He has always existed , He will always exist.He is free from all weaknesses and Needs Humans are mortal Humans have a need to procreate to continue their lineage
God is free from the need to procreate
God is almighty, He has no partners in His Self or his Attributes
It is His Attribute that He listens to his slave's prayers
He hears everything, He sees everything
None of the creation can Hear everything nor See everything.
Jesus (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã)was the holy Messenger of God, he is alive, he did not die, he cannot see or hear everything because he is creation. He (Jesus) has not existed for ever & one day he will die.
Other "Sons of God" in the Bible
"You are gods; you are all Sons of the Most High." (Psalm 82:6)
"The Sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful..." (Genesis 6:2)
"You are children of the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 14:1)
"Satan appeared amongst the Sons of God when they had gone to present themselves before their Lord..."(Job 1:6)
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the Sons of God." (Matthew 5:9)
Adam is called the Son of God. (Luke 3:38)
Ephraim is a Son of God. (Jeremiah 31:9)
Jacob is called the first born Son of God. (Exodus 4:22)
Solomon is called the Son of God. (I Chronicles 22:10)
-- San (he_mail@pakistans.com), July 29, 2002
Dear SanAll I had to read were the first 6 words of your post to have a negative gut reaction, and 100 'red flags' went up shouting 'false! false! false! In case you didn't know, this is a Catholic forum. I do hope you read and study the texts of some of these contributions. I will pray you are enlightened by the truth.
The bible says that "At the Name of Jesus every knee shall bend, of those in Heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, to the glory of God the Father." Phil. 2:10,11.
Jesus tells us "I am the way, the truth, and THE LIFE, no one comes to the Father, except through me'. John 14:6.
San, you will note that in Jeremiah 31:9, Exodus 4:22, and I Chronicles 22:10 it does not say that Ephraim is a Son of God, nor Jacob is called the first born Son of God... 1) if you read the line before in Jeremiah, you will see that it says "I am a father to Isreal..." this would indicate that God is speaking metaphorically at this point. Moreover, the Bible doesn't specifically say "Son" it says "son". Do you see the difference? Jesus is the Son of God!
In the Gospel of John: 3:16, John tells us "For God so loved the world that he gave His ONLY Son (the Capital 'S' indicates Jesus' - Deity), so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish, but might have eternal life".
Keep reading, I have been greatly taught on this forum. Theresa Huether
-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), July 29, 2002.
Respected Ms. Theresa Huether.As you must know the bible was not revealed in english, it was revealed in the Aramic language. The like the other semetic languages, Arabic and Hebrew, Aramic did not have difference of capitol or small letters
The bible was translated into greek by those who already had the deep rooted cultural belief in multiple gods, even Greek did not have capitol or small letters.
The capitol letters 'Son' for Jesus and 'son' were added by the english translators according to their belief in Jesus being partner in Godhead.
Every prophet during his duration, is the way(to be followed), the truth and the (exemplary) life. And NO ONE no matter how pious he or she is, can gain the pleasure of God if he or she rejected the Prophet of that time.
-- San (he_mail@pakistans.com), July 30, 2002.
San,You said, "Every prophet during his duration, is the way(to be followed), the truth and the (exemplary) life. And NO ONE no matter how pious he or she is, can gain the pleasure of God if he or she rejected the Prophet of that time."
Jesus is the only one to be followed. It is through Jesus that we get to the Father. Jesus is the Son of God who came to bring us the good news and I will follow only Jesus. He is the way, the truth, and the life...the alpha and the omega...It is through Jesus that I have come to know the Father.
Glory be to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be world without end. Amen
MaryLu
-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), July 30, 2002.
San,You are quite right in the fact that Jesus, and those of His time, mainly spoke Arameic. However, you did not respond to the quotes from the Bible, which were in contradiction to what you were trying to teach us. Namely: That God gave His ONLY Son, Jesus. Also, the "every knee shal bend..." And also the fact that the previous line in Jeremiah 31:9 made it clear that God wasn't talking about his real ONLY "son". And even you must agree that Jesus wouldn't be an "ordinary" "prophet". It is clearly stated in the Bible that Jesus was concieved by the Power of the Holy Spirit, which no other could claim! Being concieved by God (through the Power of the Holy Spirit), makes Jesus devine. And although Jesus' flesh didn't exist befor Mary our Mother bore him, Jesus' spirit was with the Father from eternity. you might note in Genesis how God speaks in the plural (WE). He is directly indicating his three persons, though he is ONE God!
I am truly glad that God has brought you to this forum. In fact, it would be a great blessing for you to invite, also, your friends to check this out. And I hope that you are reading many of the GREAT threads (Especially on Mary!)
In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), July 30, 2002.
In case you misunderstood me, i am not trying to say that God has many sons, i am saying that God has no sons at all, the "son of God" theory was endorsed nearly 3 centuries after Jesus. Unfortunately we do not have the original Bible, so we cannot know what the Bible really says.The term of Jesus's prophethood has ended.
About the plural WE, it is a reflection of God's glory and power and a sign of respect. For example when we greet an older Muslim , we say 'as Salaamu alykum (May there be peace on you all) rather than as Salaamu alayka (May there be peace on you), it is a sign of respect to the elder.
The Holy Spirit or God's Spirit is not a part of God, it implies possession and closeness to God. Every spirit (angel, Jinn) and everything is God's, but this is God's special spirit.
I hope you all will ponder the 8 points
-- San (he_mail@pakistans.com), July 30, 2002.
"...the "son of God" theory was endorsed nearly 3 centuries after Jesus."If we cannot really know what the Bible really says because we don't have the original, than how can we really know what anything really says without having an original copy of whatever it is we are reading, and therefore how would you have come to know that this "theory" was endorsed 3 centuries after Jesus. I could have sworn that the "son of God theory" was "endorsed", or rather prophesid in the Old Testemant right around the time that the "virgin birth theory" was "endorsed", which puts that theory many more centuries BEFORE Jesus (that is of course if the Bible is correct.. Hmmmmm).
Now, since you don't think that the current Bible is correct, in what do you base your current beliefs about God? How would you know what is true or false? So, now, what you are telling me becomes merely "theory".
If there is no Bible, or if there was but it wasn't presurved, which would be quite impossible to presurve the original, knowing that the death of Jesus was a little over 2000 years ago, then really all there is is tradition. And this tradition, in the case of the Apostles, is, or would be, exactly the same as that described in the Bible (but probably with much less detail - in particular in the Old Testament - with all the rituals and Laws that were requested of the Isrealits.) So, therefore, even without the Bible, one could trace original texts written by historians, Church fathers, and the Saints back to Jesus and coincidentally back to the Catholic Faith.
Now, assuming that just maybe the current translation of the Bible is correct, how could one not know that Jesus is the Son of God, the one prophesied about in the Old testement? You must agree that the 12 Apostles were the closest to Jesus, right? Then if they were so close, how could they be the first ones to get it wrong; that Jesus is Lord? On the contrary, at least two times, Jesus promted the Apostles to say who He was (the Savior who was to come). When Jesus asked Peter "who do you say that I am?", and the transfiguration of Jesus - are the two right off the top of my head. I mean, it was prophesid that God would send His Son, who would die and rise on the third day. And Jesus did just that. If that wasn't clear enough, I don't know what is.
A little off the topic: If the Jews don't think that Jesus was the "one", then if another one comes and does the exact same thing that Jesus did (exaclty what the OT prophesied, and exactly what they are waiting for) then why would they believe this time? Makes not much sense to me. What did Jesus do that caused them not to believe? I mean, He did everything that was prophesid, and then a little more.
Now, San, it would be of much benefit if you would look at what was requested before. I know that any Bible you pick up is not "the original", but the fact that Catholics believe exactly what we believed 2000 years ago, can attest to the authenticity of the translations. If you look at the writings of the saints (and even non-Catholic / non-religious writers and historians) throughout the milleniums (I was going to say centuries), you can trace the validity and consistancy of the Catholic teachings back to the very beginning throught the Jewish religion and up to the creation of Adam! I am confident that with a little research, you will begin to doubt your current beliefs and put more faith in the documented and scientifically / archealogically proven Bible, and more importantly the Catholic Faith.
With much love, in Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), July 30, 2002.
San,This is a moderated Catholic forum, and is not a place for Muslims to proselytize Christians.
Here are a couple of comments regarding your posts. You write:
"As you must know the bible was not revealed in english, it was revealed in the Aramic language. The like the other semetic languages, Arabic and Hebrew, Aramic did not have difference of capitol or small letters"
1) The language is Aramaic, not Aramic.
2) I doubt that you education has equipped you to speak with authority regarding the original language each book of the Bible.
3) Dispite the fact that upper/lower case letters don't exist in Aramaic and Arabic, the semetic languages do have definite articles (ie. the). Indefinite articles (a) are understood. So, in Arabic, "Allah" translates to "The God" and "ilah" translates to "a god." Both terms are used in the Quran (see Al-A'raf, 7:59).
Sam writes:
"The bible was translated into greek by those who already had the deep rooted cultural belief in multiple gods, even Greek did not have capitol or small letters."
The Jews translated the Old Testament into Greek before Jesus showed up; they had a deep rooted belief in one God. The Apostles (all Jews) and everyone after them (Jew and Gentile) had a deep rooted belief in one God.
Further, you no doubt attack the integrity of the Bible because we don't have an "original" translation. I assume you would contend that the Quran does not have this problem. Well, here's a funny problem: the Quran is written in Arabic, and in it, we find the Jewish prophets (Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob) and New Testament figures (John the Baptist, Mary, Jesus) all speaking Arabic. None of them spoke Arabic! Islam does not possess the words of the prophets in their native language. Even if the words of the Quran were true, it would still remain an inaccurate translation.
Sam writes:
"The term of Jesus's prophethood has ended."
The "term" of Muhammed's prophethood never started, let alone ended... Anyway, Jesus Christ is no mere prophet. He is the Christ, He is true God. As the Creed says:
"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered died and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end."
Christianity has rejoiced in Jesus Christ as our Divine Savior for 2000 years. May Jesus bless us all.
John 3:16-18 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth."
In Christ,
Mateo
-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 30, 2002.
Mateo,You wrote "John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth.""
Thank you! I wanted to post the preceding sentences for San, that he might see how Jesus is God!
"1 The Word was in the beginning; the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were made by Him and nothing that was made came into being without Him. 4 In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came to be a witness, to tell about the Light, so that men through him might believe. 8 He was not the Light, but came to bear witness of the Light.
Jesus, the Light of the World 9 The True Light, which enlightens every man, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world - the world that had come into being through Him - yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own world, yet His own people did not welcome Him. 12 But to those who welcomed Him, to those believing on His name, He gave the right to be the children of God. 13 These are born, not of blood, nor the desires of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became Flesh and lived among us, and we saw His glory, a glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth."
Hope this helps. Thanks again Mateo!
In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), July 31, 2002.
The Trinity
-- San (he_mail@pakistans.com), August 02, 2002.
"Answer: Yes, there are many. An examination of the purported words of Jesus, as recorded in the Gospels, clearly shows that he never said he was God or a part of God."Jesus never said he washed the dishes either. Does it mean it is true? This is just a bunch of anti-Catholic / anti-Christian propaganda. St. Johns Gospel acount, as well as Peter's testemony, clearly show us that Jesus is God! When Jesus asked Peter who they said that he was, Peter replied, "the Massiah". Then Jesus told them to tell no one. He didn't say "your wrong". If he wasn't, then why would he let them believe it. And if he let them believe it, and he really wasn't, then what kind of a prophet was he (hint - a bad one). And if Jesus was a bad prophet - then that flushes the Jewish religion down the can as well!
You would have to agree, as I had stated before, that the Gospel writers were among those CLOSEST to Jesus. And if they got him wrong (because they seem to think he WAS God), then they must have been a bunch of fools (which I doubt). Not to mention Mary, Jesus' mother.
San, please. I would like to debate with you, but if you can not respond to these overwhelming truthes that have 2000 years of historical backing and use cop-outs like "we can't trust the Bible" yet post Biblical text to refute Jesus' divinity, I will simply ignore this thread. I have asked several times if you could respond to certain things, which you have not. And for the most part I have responded to the majority of your questions and comments with solid arguments.
If you truly are interested in evangelizing us, and bringing us into the light about your faith, then you must necessarily BACK up your statements, and respond to the comments others make.
Thank you.
In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), August 02, 2002.
Sorry for the poor spelling. I'm in a rush and didn't use spell check. Thanks.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), August 02, 2002.
San,Please read some older threads.
Rember Minasay the Muslim lady, or Larry, or Levent?
Minasay said the same ignorant comment.(Rember Dr.?)
David
-- David (David@excite.com), August 02, 2002.
I am not interested in long drawn debates etc.Regarding the Quraan has the prophets speaking in Arabic, Yes but since the traslation is by God Himself, He can't be accused of mistranslation.
Perhaps it might be your belief that the greek translation of the Bible was also revealed by God? But i've never heard of Christians having such belief.
I did not understand your point about Jesus washing dishes. Trinity is a central belief of christianity. Whether Jesus washed dishes or not isn't.
Regarding the point:
3) Dispite the fact that upper/lower case letters don't exist in Aramaic and Arabic, the semetic languages do have definite articles (ie. the). Indefinite articles (a) are understood. So, in Arabic, "Allah" translates to "The God" and "ilah" translates to "a god." Both terms are used in the Quran (see Al-A'raf, 7:59).
This contains an assumption that Allah means "al Illaah" i.e the God. Regardless of whether this assumption is true or not, if we assume that it's true than it will make my point even clearer.
The pagans of Arabia used to worship 'al Illaah' along with false Gods. 'The God' does not necessarily mean 'the only God'.
Regarding
"assuming that just maybe the current translation of the Bible is correct"
But don't we already know that it is not?
John 5:7-8
-- San (he_mail@pakistans.com), August 03, 2002.
"I am not interested in long drawn[out]debates"And I'm not interested in Islam.
This is a forum for questions relating to the Catholic Faith. Do you have a question or what?
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), August 03, 2002.
"I did not understand your point about Jesus washing dishes. Trinity is a central belief of christianity. Whether Jesus washed dishes or not isn't."Sorry for not explaining: You had posted some texts, and the first line on the first document stated that because Jesus never said he was God, I guess this means that he was not. But just because He never said it, doesn't make it not so. There is plenty of evidence to support the fact tha He IS God.
And thank you for responding, but honestly you've already covered those points. What about the Apostles saing that Jesus WAS God. These were his closest friends! And yes, each translation of the Bible is Inspired by God. But Catholocism (and for that matter Christianity) was never founded on the Bible (the Bible was compiled quite a few years after the death of Christ. Rather, our faith was founded on the Truth, which was handed from Christ to the Apostles in the Catholic Church. And from the first Apostles, Tradition was handed down generation to genration. And Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide us (the Church) so that no errors would overcome the Church. This is Biblical, yes, but it is also Sacred Oral Tradition. Look up the lives of the Saints, all the way down to St. Peter, we all believe the exact same thing!
I hope that some of this is helping you out. There are many sources which try to spread falsities about the Catholic faith. One must be wary of what one believes. This forum is a great place to find the Truth.
In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), August 04, 2002.
San writes:"I am not interested in long drawn debates etc."
San, we are not interested in your dumb cut-and-paste attacks on Christianity. Also, we are not interested in Islam, primarily because it is a man-made religion. For example, Muhammad invents limits on God's abilities just because he doesn't like Christianity (see Al-Ikhlas).
If you feel that your faith is important, then I'd ask you to pray that Islam would rid itself of those immoral men who stain the image of Islam with their violence; claiming to defend their religion, even as they ignore the teachings of Muhammad (see Al-Kafirun).
Mateo
PS--Allah (Al-lah) really means "the God." "Al-" is the definite article in Arabic.
-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), August 04, 2002.
1) see Surah Ikhlas (translation):In the Name of Allah the most Beneficent and the Most Merciful
"Say! He is God, the One!
The Eternally Besought of all!
He does not beget, nor is He begotten.
And there is nothing comparable to Him."
As you can see, the "rationalist" debate over whether God can bear sons or daughters is not mentioned at all
2)You mean immoral, voilent men?
3) al Kafirun is a bara'h (disavowal) from the religions of the Kuffaar (non-Muslims). It is not a licence for apostacy, as some of the modernist devients are making it out to be.
-- San (he_mail@pakistans.com), August 10, 2002.
SanIt is His Attribute that He listens to his slave's prayers
You see yourself as a slave of God and not an adopted son. Who would ever be happy as a slave only? I'd rather be dead than be a slave forever. Ask a real slave and see how they like it. Read history on slavery in America an see how happy they were.
An adopted son is not equal to the Father nor is he a blood relative. But adopted sons partake in the family like a son does. It means we can become like God if we ask for his help and respond to his helps. We can improve our lives and be happier. How can anyone oppose that? What else is even reasonable?
God Bless You
-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), August 10, 2002.
I didn't mean to bold the whole thing, moderator can you fix that?
-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), August 10, 2002.
San,
I thought you weren't interested in "long drawn debates."
Well, you believe in your man-made religion. You seem to be happy with yourself. I'll keep you in my prayers.
Your responses:
1) The fact remains: this verse of Muhammed (in Al-Ikhlas) was probably just written in reaction to Christianity by people who feared the powerful truth and salvific message of Jesus Christ. Those who desperately wanted to resist the spread of Christianity invented their own religion. They named it "Islam."
2) Even to this day, Islamic countries have to use their governments to persecute Christians. Even as they fight, Atheism spreads through the Middle East. What's totally ironic is the fact that the tenets of this man-made religion are being ignored by many of those who pretend to defend Islam. This hypocrisy ranges from the Islamic countries that prohibit other religions from freedom to practice their religion, all the way to the fanatical Muslim terrorists of 9/11 who went out and got drunk the night before they committed their terrorist act. Hypocrisy is written all over so many defenders of Islam.
3) You write:
"al Kafirun is a bara'h (disavowal) from the religions of the Kuffaar (non-Muslims). It is not a licence for apostacy, as some of the modernist devients are making it out to be."
Are you trying to justify the use of the government to prohibit non-Islamic religions? Or are you just trying to justify Muslims who use terrorist acts, applauding them for not being "modernist deviants"?
I wonder, San, do you think that Western Europe and the US should follow the lead of cowardly Muslim countries that use their governments to prohibit minority religions? Should we prohibit Islam?
Matt
-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), August 10, 2002.
Hello, SanI was hoping you would dissapper like the rest of those Muslims do. But I see you are putting up links "immoral" about the sex scandal in the Church and your link was very negative about the Holy Father!
First off San I would like to show you where it says in the Bible that Jesus is God. Ok?
By His decent upon the Virgin Mary, the Holy Spirit brought the gift promised to Isreal; The Lord is with her and God is us. ( Lk 1,28,35; Mt 1,2,1ff). Actually, Jesus is also the Lord (Mt 22, 43 p). Like His Father, who is with Him always, He is called, "I am" ( Jn 8, 28 f; 16, 32) and gives His own fullfillment to the promise of presence implied by that name.
San, I am disappointed you put up that link. There is no one in this forum who was not upset and wants guilty men punished to the fullest extent of the law.
How dare you, you sad Muslim. Are you aware you own false prophet, the great Muhammad married at least 11 woman after the death of his first wife. Some sources place the total as high as 16. He also took several concubines. This sad man married one girl who was only SIX YEARS OLD, and had sexual relations with her when she was ONLY NINE years od.
Rember San, this is your prophet. :-) Oh, But that's right, According to the Koran, only the prophet could have unlimited wives. All other Muslim men are limited to four (Sura 4;3). Are you getting the picture Sanny? Any man that has sex with a nine year old is a pervert in my opinion!
San are you aware that your holy book the Koran is riddled with lies?
Ok, I'll show you a few real quick. Consider what is says about creation. In one place it asserts that Allah created everything in the "twinkling of a eye",( Sura 54;49-50). Elsewhere it says that the time period of the creation was only two days (Sura 41;9,12); four days (Sura 41;10); six days (Suras 7;54, 10;4, and 32;4) in a day equalling 1,000 years" (Sura 32;5); and also in 50,000 years" (Sura 70;4). That is a total of six differnt time periods, San.
What about the big blunder in the Koran? The crude ecxample is found in Sura;18;8-86 where it says Alaxander the Great followed the setting of the sun and discovered that it went down into the waters of a muddy spring!
Why does the Koran give four conflicting accounts of Muhammad's call to be a prophet?
Explain this one San(Sura 4;34)" Men are the managers of the affairs of women.... Those women who are rebellious- admonish them, banish them to their couches, and beat them."
Why does it tell a man to banish a rebellious women to their couch, and then beat them?
Use your common sence that Jesus Christ gave you. Your are responsible for what you know, and have been taught.
God bless you
David
-- David (David@saveit.com), August 10, 2002.
To Mr. Mike HYes we are all slaves of God, we have been created to worship and show obedience to Him
The slaves who were unhappy because their masters were cruel, but the true Master of the universe is not cruel, He has forbidden cruelty on Himself, He is Just, He loves His slaves. So the true happiness lies in obedience to your Master and Creator
There are other religions who not only promise that you can become godlike but that you can become a god. Like some forms of Buddhism say that if you do good you'll be reborn as a god!.
When Joseph was in the prison he preached to his cellmates saying:
O my two companions of the prison! are many lords better, or Allah- the One, the Dominant?
The one who becomes slave of one God, he becomes free from worries, the one who doesn't have complete faith in One God, goes running around from "Saint" to "Saint", from one "god" to another.
-- San (he_mail@pakistans.com), August 11, 2002.
1) The christian religion is a distortion of the message of Jesus. It is a triumph of the message of paul over the teachings of Jesus A heresy where god is born and killed A new born is considered guilty for crimes he/she didn't commit Islaam brings the true teachings of Jesus thats why Padres do their best to keep christians ignorant of Islaam. (One Padre who i know tried to keep his flock fooled by saying that Jesus is never mentioned in the Quran)The church used to sell people "indulgences", allowing them to commit sins in return for money
The Church used to burn women as witches, boil people in hot water and other torturous deaths.
2)Christians have done mass murder of Muslims in former Yogoslavia, their onslaught continues in Iraq, Chechnya and Afghanistan.
If by "persecution" you mean Islaam disallows christians from preaching christianity, thats true. We certainly don't believe in any "equality of religions".
If you mean that Islaam doesn't allow christians to practice their faith, thats false.
3)If we believe the western media, the WTC attacker didn't even have beards, used to drink and curse god in bars. One of them "used to be seen in the Church more than in the Mosque" They weren't very religious were they? I got all these details from either "Time" or "Newsweek".
4)Some modernist have taken to opposing the laws of blasphemy and apostasy by making wrong use of Surah al Kafirun. Surah al Kafirun is about general Kuffaar not Murtadeen (apostates).
" to prohibit non-Islamic religions"
No Muslim country has ever prohibited christianity.
"Muslims who use terrorist acts.."
I believe massacaring civilians from 90000 ft, or using Nuclear weapons to wipe out 2 cities or to starve to death 1.5 million Iraqis are much bigger terrorist acts than smashing planes into the wtc.
Or even the catholic child kidnapping ring discovered in Karachi which kidnapped babies from hospitals and sold them in Malta.
"Should we prohibit Islam? "
Whenever religious christians came into power, they prohibited Islaam. For example in Spain, where more than 6 million Muslims who had been living there were driven out, killed, had their children abducted or forced to accept christianity.
-- San (he_mail@pakistans.com), August 11, 2002.
"immoral" about the sex scandal in the Church"You have mr Mattelfeo to thank for that, who refered to immoral men , as if there is anything more immoral than the current western society.
That the christians have made fabrications in the bible in support of trinity are clear to all. As you might know early christians had many different concepts about Jesus, with scholars like Paul of Samosta, Lucian and Arius who didn't accept the trinity. Many christians had other formulas for making Jesus god, but the trinity faction won by using political and military might.
"There is no one in this forum who was not upset and wants guilty men punished to the fullest extent of the law."
But hasn't Jesus died for their sins? All these gays have to do is go to a priest and confess.
Sinners can't submit to God, they have to go to the catholic bureaucracy.
Your religion is founded by Paul who said
'If through my falsehood God's truthfulness abounds to His glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner.' (Romans 3:7)
Paul felt little reluctance in spreading 'falsehood' so long as the end result achieved the greater glory of God. Therefore he claimed vision of Jesus on the Damascus road, his appointment as preacher to the Gentiles, and the other teachings he propagated in the name of Christianity. He would have done well to take into consideration another Biblical text: 'A faithful witness does not lie, but a false witness breathes out lies.' (Proverbs 14:5) Paul, by his own admission, proves himself a false witness
Regarding your revilement of God's prophet, thats no new thing. The corrupted false bible accuses prophets of all sorts of evil like incest, drunkeness, barbarity, cowardice.
When God allowing his messenger to marry nine wives had lots of reasons, for example the end of feuds with hostile tribes, the teaching of women, the encouragement of Muslims to marry divourced and widowed women.
As for age of marriage, a girl is considered fit for marriage after she has her menstruation, this varies from woman to woman, in the same way a boy is considered adult after his first wet dream. This is not something you can put age limits on.
According to the Talmud you can have sex with a 3 year old.
-- San (he_mail@pakistans.com), August 11, 2002.
San writes:"I am not interested in long drawn debates etc."
San, you're so obsessed with your man-made religion...yawn...keep justifying your hypocrisy. We're still not interested in your false religion.
San writes:
"as if there is anything more immoral than the current western society."
San, do you live in "Western Society?" Have you ever visited a "Western Society?" Maybe we should protect all of those "saintly Muslims" by keeping them out of our countries. Would that solve the problem? If only we had virtuous leaders like those in the Middle East. Men like Omar Bashir, Quadafi, Saddam Hussien, General Musharraf, etc. etc. Oh, and they are so loved by their people. Who needs democracy when you have a group of insane dictators and monarchs who think they speak and act for Allah, even in their immorality.
San, if the Middle East were so "moral," why is it that most people would do anything to get away from the poverty and its oppressive governments/religions? If you're so wise, you might want to remove your protective cloak of denial that you've wrapped around Islam, and start looking at reality. Very few people (including Muslims) live voluntarily under Islamic governments. Most sane people want to get as far away from them as possible.
The facts are here for everyone: most Middle Easterners who have the choice send their children to what you call the "immoral West" because they have a better chance of being educated instead of being indoctrinated. If you feel so confident about Islam, you might want to read "Occidentosis" by Jala Al-i Ahmad. You're false religion is losing and will lose the culture war.
San wrote:
"Your religion is founded by Paul who said..."
Ummm...wrong. It's actually ironic that Islam's own beginnings are so problematic. The religion's problem with nepotism (Muhammad's nephew Ali) caused the first fracture in the religion, creating Sunnis and Shi'ites. The first few hundred years of Islam show it to be a family religion--I guess the Muslim God has a preference for relatives/descendants of Muhammad. What a joke!
"Paul felt little reluctance in spreading 'falsehood' so long as the end result..."
Congratulations, you can cut-and-paste text that you know nothing about.
San writes:
"When God allowing his messenger to marry nine wives had lots of reasons, for example the end of feuds with hostile tribes, the teaching of women, the encouragement of Muslims to marry divourced and widowed women."
Hahahaha! Muhammad was a polygamist out of the goodness of his heart. Sounds like a man-made religion, complete with excuses for excessive polygamy. A funny thing about the hypocrisy of Islam is that Muhammad pretends that he isn't deifying himself when he wrote the Quran; but he even puts himself as an equal with Allah in the Quran:
The Women 4.14 - "And whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle [Muhammad] and goes beyond His limits, He will cause him to enter fire to abide in it, and he shall have an abasing chastisement."
So much for Muhammad being a humble servant of Allah. He usurped Allah's authority and made himself into judge, jury, and executioner.
But this confuses me. Why does the Quran bother mentioning a four wife limit for the rest of us?
San writes:
"According to the Talmud you can have sex with a 3 year old"
San, since you're such a well-researched scholar, could you provide the reference in the Talmud that supports your accusation? Call me a skeptic, but I doubt that you've read the Talmud. Have you read the Mishna and the Gemara?
San writes:
"I believe massacaring civilians from 90000 ft, or using Nuclear weapons to wipe out 2 cities or to starve to death 1.5 million Iraqis are much bigger terrorist acts than smashing planes into the wtc."
Considering that you have conveniently forgotten what Saddam Hussien did to the Kurdish population in Iraq, what he did to Kuwait, and what he did to the Iranian civilians during their war, I'm not surprised that you don't see Saddam Hussien's hunger for power as the reason that all of those children died.
Implicit to your argument is the admission that Western medicine (created by us "immoral non-Muslims") is the only hope for these children. At least you realize how important the West is to bringing the Middle East out from its desperate poverty. Let me give you a little advice: if you really care about the Middle East's future, you'll realize that your fear of other religions (manifest in your belief that your countries should outlaw non-Muslim religions) will only retard the development of the Middle East.
Enjoy,
Mateo
-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), August 11, 2002.
Dear Mateo:
If San has even read your post I'll be genuinely surprised. His fanaticism would of necessity demand that he not look at it. But so what? All others in doubt can see by your devastating rebuttals on what false grounds San approached this subject. Indeed, calling God a ''subject'' can be seen as blasphemous; since we are all His subjects.In the God who revealed Himself in His divine Son we have a Sovereign who does not regard us as subjects, even though we should be. We are His children, His heirs.
Allah should be so kind. But then, as you've stated, Allah is just a synonym for the Prophet. Mohammed puts words in God's mouth. Jesus never put words in His Father's mouth, but revealed the Father's Word in His own divine Person. Not in Saint Paul's person, but the Son's.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), August 12, 2002.
Firstly the answer to some christian lies about the Quraan
Allah the Most High Created the Whole Universe in Six Days
Indeed your Lord is Allâh, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and then He rose over the Throne. He brings the night as a cover over the day, seeking it rapidly, and (He created) the sun, the moon, the stars subjected to His Command. Surely, His is the Creation and Commandment. Blessed be Allâh, the Lord of the Worlds
Allah The Most High Created the Earth in two Days:
Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days and you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? Who is the Lord of the Worlds.
Surah 41(Fussilat) ayah 9
Allah the Most High Created Mountains and blessed the Earth with Sustenance in four Days
He placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers) in four equal Days , for all those who ask (about its creation).
Surah 41(Fussilat) ayah 10
The Day of Judgement shall be of a Thousand Years of Our Reckoning
He arranges (every) affair from the heavens to the earth, then it (all affairs) will go up to Him, in one Day, the space whereof is a thousand years of your reckoning .
Surah 32 (as Sajdah) ayah 5
The Angels and a the Spirit ascend to Him in a Day Measuring 50000 Years
The angels and the spirit ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years.
Surah 70 (al Ma'arij) ayah 4
He Has Created Everything with a Preordainment
Verily, We have created all things with Qadar (Divine Preordainments of all things before their creation, as written in the Book of Decrees Al-Lauh Al-Mahfûz).
His Commands are Fulfilled in the Twinkling of an Eye
And Our Commandment is but one, as the twinkling of an eye (and it is fulfilled).
So, you can see how desperate your Padres can get to hide the truth from you, they pretend that all these ayaat mention the creation of the whole Universe.
Regarding the Surah 18:86, first of all Zulqarnayn is not Alexander of Mecedonia. And this is the opinion (among many others) of the writer of the foremost Commentry of the Quraan, Allama Ibn al Kathir.
I'd like to ask you do you say "the sun rose", "the sun set" or do you always say "Did the rotation of the Earth make the Sun appear to Set?"
And does the Bible say that the Earth moves? And what was the controversy between the Church and Galileo?
-- San (he_mail@pakistans.com), August 12, 2002.
San,Can you give me a little history of the Quraan? When was it compiled by Muhammad?
It seems to me that much of the "creation" story is similar to that of the Bible. And not just the Bible, but the book of Genesis in the Old Testament of the Bible, which was written some time before the Bible even was compiled. Therefore, it would seem to me that if the Quraan states what the Bible stated long before, wouldn't you say that Muhammad was giving you "old news"?
I would hate to offend you, but to me it just seems like Muhammad took the creation story (and much of the history of Our God) and put his own spin on it. If you are truly in search of the Truth, I would concider researching the history of the Quraan and the history of the Catholic faith. You will, by the Grace of God, come to the realization that Catholicism is direct path to the heart of Our God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).
In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), August 12, 2002.
I've been trying to find a point to what you're saying San but I haven't found one. All you seem to be doing is bringing negetivity to this forum,it's all in vein. You seem to be a clever person but it's a stupid thing to come to this forum in the first place and speak the way you do. I only hope that you do not complete your aim, for your sake as anyone who stops one of Gods children from believing in him it would be better for them to have a weight around them and them thrown into the sea. My opinion and my belief is that you are doing Satan's work and if I were to do the same thing as you do at a muslim forum I certanly wouldn't be doing God's work. I don't make trouble but seek discourage it as God's son. In this way it is better to be God's son and not a slave as it is better to learn and act like a father to others than a Master. A masters seeks control (perhaps the aim of Islam) but our Father seeks to Love and Cherish(the purpose of Christianity).
-- Mark (fay_mark@hotmail.com), August 12, 2002.
hi sanfirst of all we are created equally in the eye's of god, so the word slave you used is wrong we are children of god so slave term does not exist . no one is trying to remove or eradicate anyone's belief it's the inferior thought that is driving us insane of such behaviour we are connected to one another but we refuse to beleive that cos everyone want to rule the world but my sibling is the world created for one only to dominate or for all to live in peace and harmony .
i have read what all of you have to say but i have found nothing in common but hatred in proving one's own point on superiorty why? i guess it's human nature
everyone will be judged for his or her sins in my life i won't say as a catholic but as a living human being i have met hindus, muslims and more religious people fight that their religion is superior trying to fight fault with other belief and religion
cani ask you all a very good question do u love god or yourself, being good and kind to other or your principles in being right again to be and feel superior in other eye's but in your eye's and heart a liar and a sinner.
as by watching the news and reading the papers can we be the judge as to what as really happen no we cannot b'cos it's human to make mistake by saying this iam refering to the translation of the both the holy book's that can be wrongly translated by a human being
and here are we fighting over this i as to who is right and who wrong hahahahaahhaahahahahah
does it matter to anyone that to pray and beleive in god to end this bitter hatred between brother .
no
fight make a point you hit me so in return i shall hit you and we are even wow it fell so good that my friends and brother are here to fight over whose god and which prophets is holy and pious superb
god bless you all
and forever prejudice rule's (being sarcastic)
and as for my the rest of my brother stop wasting your time for san is well aware of the truth but for some reason is being foolish to bring up the topic of god and religion for discussion maybe he is lonely so be a friend and talk to him abt other topic god is to be worshipped and given grace to regardless of the language we speak for in his eye's equality reign superium
man mistake will go on till the end of day's as god watch to view that man becoming is in his own fall .
as it was so said man will destroy his own existence
that what happening so many of us are afraid of death that we are beginning to fear life itself .
i will end my boring words by a saying "if a day comes as to the questioning of my faith to choose between my god or my life i will kneel and bow my head in pray to forgive my executioner as he realease me from the torment (to see my brothers slit each other throat)so i may close to my god my creator"
ending with love and peace and happiness to you all even to you san cos u r my brother.
-- stephen miranda (stephen_s_fmiranda@hotmail.com), October 26, 2002.
wow... i stumbled upon this debate.. aand, i got to say, it wasn't pleasant for BOTH sides. even tho it was two years ago.. hey, how about this? read this:109. al-Kafirun: The Unbelievers
1) Say: O disbelievers!
2) I worship not that which ye worship;
3) Nor worship ye that which I worship.
4) And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
5) Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6) Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
when the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) took over Mekkah, he said to the non-muslims, the people there, who fought him,
"There is no reproach against you. Go to your homes, for you are all free." ...and he allowed everyone to practise their own religion. so even those who did not accept islam lived in peace :) also, in the Qur'an (2:257), it says that there is no compulsion in religion. ( http://www.dantatafamily.com/dantataarticles/messenger.htm )
so less take that advice? ...it doesn't sound so bad :) take care, everyone! happy eid & merry x-mas!
-- kim (kmk_koolcat@hotmail.com), November 19, 2004.