"Primitive" Diets and bunches of ramblings from me

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Some of this relates to a thread EM started awhile back, called The Politics of Meat. I wanted to start a new thread because some people don't check the New Messages. You can find EM's older thread in the Health category, or just use this link: click

Some of this also relates to the discussions of low-carb diets that have gone on here recently. Before I get into the rest of this post, I have a question for Denise and Alison, who successfully started the Atkins diet -- how did you deal with cravings for carbs/sweets? I know Atkins recommended some supplements, but I'm interested in hearing from you whether you used them, what you used, what worked, etc.

I also wanted to comment on Alison going off the Atkins diet because of all the delicious fruits available at this time of the year. I can understand that perfectly. I think there are probably more permutations to diet (eating, as opposed to dieting) than anyone can outline, particularly when it relates to individuals. It also makes perfect sense to me that humans WOULD eat fruit, WHEN it was in season, and possibly dried fruits out of season. I think there is a world of difference in the nutrition of a ripe piece of fruit and a quantity of sugar to match the sugar content of the fruit.

Okay, so on to the rest of this post. I've been researching diet options for my white GSD, who has NOT been doing well on kibble, even "premium" whole food kibble. One raw-feeding list poster provided this link, which actually has to do with human diet: link

I've only started reading there, with the Nasty, Brutish, and Short? link: article

I'm not going to copy the whole thing here, it's way too long. I just wanted to post the conclusions.

"The first happy lesson gleaned from a study of traditional diets is that healthy food can and should taste good; that we can put butter on our porridge and cook in lard, that it’s OK to consume whole milk, fatty meats, liver and onions, lox and cream cheese, shrimp and lobster, even insects, if you like them; that heavenly sauces made from bone broth and cream confer more benefits than pills and powders and ersatz low-fat concoctions, the stepchildren of technology, pawned off as health foods.

Wisely used, technology can take the drudgery out of cooking, and help us bring properly grown and prepared foods to the marketplace. Wrongly used, technology produces breads that are soft and sweet rather than sour and chewy; coca-cola rather than cottage-industry lacto-fermented soft drinks; bouillon cubes rather than homemade broth; sugar-embalmed ketchup with infinite shelf life rather than enzyme-rich condiments and pickles preserved to last a few months in a way that adds nutrients instead of taking them away.

The second lesson is that healthy eating is good for the ecology. The building blocks of a healthy diet are pesticide-free foods raised on mineral-rich soil, and healthy animals that live free to manure the paddocks of thousands of farms, rather than suffer in factories, confined to misery and disease. The road to health starts with a willingness to pay a good price for such food, thus rewarding the farmer who preserves the land through wise farming practices, rather than the agribusiness that mines the soil for quick profits.

And, finally, a return to traditional foods is a way of taking power away from the multinationals and giving it back to the artisan. The kind of food processing that makes food more nutritious is the same kind of food processing that the farmer or the farming community can do in situ—sour milk and grain products, aged cheeses, pickles, sausages, broth and beverages. All the boxed, bottled and frozen products in modern supermarkets—the cheerios, crackers, cookies, egg-beaters, margarines, diet sodas and TV dinners—have made fortunes for a few and impoverished the rest of us. The way we eat determines not only how healthy we will be, but what kind of economy we have—the kind where a few people make millions and millions of dollars or the kind where millions of people make a decent living.

Technology propels us headlong into the future, but there will be no future unless that technology is tamed to the service of wise ancestral foodways."
* * * * * * *

I don't know that this will spark much discussion. But I wanted to share it with all of you, the people most likely to be receptive to it! :-)

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2002

Answers

Joy,

If you haven't already read it, you would probably really enjoy "Nourishing Traditions - The Cookbook that Challenges Politically Correct Nutrition and the Diet Dictocrats" by Sally Fallon. It is much more than a cookbook - loaded with information on raw milk, raw milk products, cultured and fermented foods, vitamins, minerals, etc. I found it fascinating and very helpful. Our Library has it in their system but I did have to wait a while to get it as there were several holds on this book already. I am buying a copy because it is definately a keeper!

-- Anonymous, August 28, 2002


Interesting, Terry. I think Sally Fallon was a name I saw at the site above. I'll have to see if my library has that book. I do that too -- take out a book from the library to see if I want to have my own copy or not!

-- Anonymous, August 28, 2002

Joy, Sally Fallon is the one who runs the organization you linked to in your post. This wonderful book is not one that you'll likely be happy just reading, cuz its mostly a cookbook, but a super duper one. You can buy it from me if you'd like. wisespiritbookst ore

-- Anonymous, August 28, 2002

EM is right, most of "Nourishing Traditions" is recipes but there is still quite a bit in the beginning that is good reading. Is this book listed on your website EM? I'll buy mine from you since you sell it.

We bought a cow a little over a month ago and have been enjoying making a lot of "milk products" like yogurt, butter and cheeses. Unfortunately, we have had to sell her (still have her until Sat. morning). We are trying to get our house ready (updating and OLD farmhouse) before my husband retires, and just have not been able to do ANYTHING in that area due to all the work with animals. Right now that includes laying chickens, Turkey, pigs, and the cow (and dog and cat).We had hoped we could do it all NOW but just cannot. It has been quite a learning experience though. We saw that we definately can do it(milk), however, I'm leaning towards goats next time because the size of cows intimidates (read "scares" :-) me a little).

So...we have a local resource for pasture raised beef, will be able to still buy raw milk, will keep the chickens for eggs and are on the search for pigs, meat chickens, and turkeys(next year) that are fed organically raised feed. Will have to wait until we move to our new homestead to have the animals again. Anyway, didn't mean to ramble - all this just to say that the book is very interesting and helpful and it was the final "convincer" that we will do all we can to eat this way.

-- Anonymous, August 28, 2002


I was vaguely aware of having heard of "Nourishing Traditions" -- sometimes it takes me awhile to make connections! I am always taking in so much information, it doesn't always get processed . . .

EM, if I decide I must have a copy, I'll get it from you. For now, I've put a request in at the library. The system has four copies, and they're all checked out. But I should be able to get one about mid-September, which is just fine, because I won't have time to do much about it before then.

-- Anonymous, August 28, 2002



Just got around to reading this post and I have to tell you, Joy..."Nourishing Traditions" is one of the best investments I ever made!! I bought my copy from EM's website. It's definitely a great cookbook, but is also a wonderful "coffee table" book. Just packed with excellent information!!!!! BUY IT :-)!!!!!

-- Anonymous, August 28, 2002

Just wanted to agree with Joy about eating in-season fruits being perfectly natural.

Although when one initially goes on Atkins you are allowed pretty much no fruit, that's only a couple of weeks. And if someone is living a low-carb life doesnt mean they cannot eat fruit. The most important thing to keep out of one's diet is sugars : white sugar especially, but even very limited amounts of any other sugars, honey and maple syrup included. And processed foods of any kind are almost always carb-laden. Any anything made with flour, especially white flour is murder on the adrenals. Yes, all that yummy (especially white)bread and pasta and rice is nasty. "The whiter your bread, the quicker you're dead." :)

Fresh organically grown fruit is a wonderful nutrient and fiber-rich part of any good diet, but should still not be overdone cuz of its high sugar content, and fruit juices are just as bad at raising blood sugar as are soda pops, cuz they are too concentrated. In fact, I have become so accustomed to mixing fruit juice with water or charged water that pure fruit juice now is nauseatingly sweet to me.

I wanted to know more about the sublingual B vitamins for sugar cravings too. I still have a terrible time with chocolate and ice cream cravings. I only looked in the local health food store once, but all I could find were sublingual B12. That's not what you mean is it?

Where is Sherri?

-- Anonymous, August 29, 2002


I'm still here, it's just been a busy week. I have exciting news, I'll try to post more this weekend. :)

-- Anonymous, August 29, 2002

Bumping this back onto the recent answers page, because, as far as I know, Alison and Denise never saw it.

I'm still mulling over what I am going to try for dietary changes. But I've already cut way back on the sweetener in my iced tea. That makes my usual (herbal) lemon blend to sharp and sour for my taste, so I am casting about for some other herbal mixtures. I've been drinking a mint blend this summer. That's pretty good without sweetener (or much sweetener anyway). But I know when winter comes, I'm not going to want mint. Too "cooling". I don't like the taste of plain water. Yes, it DOES have a taste. Or I should say, I don't like the taste of most plain water. The water that came from our well when I was a kid was great. My brother seems to have good water at his place, but I'm not sure about transporting gallons and gallons of water from his place. I don't get up there that often! {sigh} Although, water is tasting better all the time. Maybe the problem is ME.

I certainly have noticed that cutting back on sweets makes a lot of things taste a lot sweeter than before. I think. My Juliet tomatoes seem super sweet to me -- and I don't think they tasted that good just a week ago. On the other hand, it might be that they get sweeter with sitting around a few days. If I'm starting to get hungry, I just grab one of my Juliet's and eat that. Yum!

My, aren't I rambling on! Well, now the rest of you can ramble -- your turn! :-D

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2002


Hey, I'm still around. We just got a new computer and it has taken awhile to get everything in order not to mention that hubby lives in the world of Everquest in the evenings.

I agree with what the article says. I also agree that fruit in season would be a natural thing. But some of us are more sensitive to sugar whether it be processed or natural. It causes a huge surge of insulin resutling in tiredness and never having hunger satisfied. I tried switching from Atkins to CAD (Carbohydrate Addicts Diet) last week. It is pretty much like Atkins except you get to include a carbohydrate rich food with your reward meal each day. I only lasted about 4 days on that and restarted Atkins. By day 2 all I could think about was what my treat would be at the next day's reward meal. I must really have a problem with sugar! If I didn't go back to Atkins I'm sure I would have caved and gone back to my old ways. I didn't gain doing Cad and think it may be OK for someone who isn't as sensitive to sugar as I am. I have heard of many successes on this program. I'm going to have to be an occasional planned cheater (like birthdays and such) immediately getting back on the wagon. Even once I have reached my goal weight, I will still eat low carb but increase the amount of my intake of food. I feel better than I have in years.

In answer to your question about supplements, I haven't used any. I get my nutrients through natural means. I make herbal infusions (nettle, oatstraw, comfrey, red clover ala Susun Weed) which supply me with everything I need. Once I got the carbs out of my system the cravings took care of themselves. As long as I only eat limited carbs of the veggie variety, then I have no cravings. The most sugar I eat would be tomatoes which I make sure to combine with a good amount of protein. So far they haven't set me off but actual fruit does. I would suppose it's an individual thing. You would have to how it affects you.

So I'm still with the low carb lifestyle and have lost 17 lbs. That may not seem like a lot but on my small frame (5'2") I look almost like a different person. I started at 144, now 127, and my goal is to stay between 120-125. I'm almost at the top end of goal! WOO HOO!! And I've NEVER been hungry unless it's time for a meal. I find that absolutely amazing!

Oh and I use BARF for my dog. She is going on 6 and is in the best conditon she has ever been in even as a younger dog. She is lean, very shiny, and full of energy.

I hope I answered your questions. I'm sorry it took so long.

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2002



Is everyone that goes on these diets doing so to lose weight? Or eat more healthy? If it's to lose weight wouldn't it be easier to just get taller?

Wildman, AR. (thinking big, errr, tall)

-- Anonymous, September 08, 2002


So, EM; do I gotta go through the web site or can I just send you some bucks directly for the book? E-mail me if you want. Sounds interesting. Also sounds like justification for the way I eat normally! ;o)

-- Anonymous, September 08, 2002

Joy, its perfectly normal when one cuts down on sweet tasting foods to become quickly over-sensitized to sweet taste, and as you noticed, it doesnt take long. I think this is our natural state, and our craving for unnaturally sweet food is at least to some degree the fault of our modern diet.

Wildman, the best reason to eat low-carbs, at least for most people, is because of its healthy effects, and although many folks begin it because of weight loss, they continue it because it normalizes their weight and just plain makes them feel better, physically and emotionally. And for those who care about such things, in the majority of cases, a low-carbohydrate diet improves their lab numbers.

Polly, sure you can order directly, no problem. Just send $28.50 for priority mail, which will take 2-3 days (or if you aren't in a hurry and want to save a couple bucks on shipping...$26.50 for book rate, which takes a few days longer) to:

WiseSpirit PO Box 625 Willernie, MN 55090

Peace,

-- Anonymous, September 09, 2002


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