Any truth to this rumor that when they exhumed Padre Pio's grave, that nothing was in it? I know nothing of the situation, except a rumor I heard. Anyone heard of such a thing?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 17, 2002

Answers

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-- Em (w@w.w), October 17, 2002.

Not a word, so till it's confirmed it'll just have to remain a rumor. :-)

(speaking of exhumations, I'm upset because I found out that Thomas a Kempis, author of "Imitation of Christ", was denied sainthood because when they exhumed him, they discovered he'd been buried alive, and had a look of terror on his face -- and the conclusion they made was that he wasn't resigned to his fate! Hey, if I was buried alive, I wouldn't be very resigned to it either!!)

-- Christine L. (chris_tine_lehman@hotmail.com), October 17, 2002.

P.S. I did just recently learn that Pope John XXIII was found to be incorrupt when he was exhumed. That oughta tick off all the Vatican II haters! ;-)

-- Christine L. (christinelehman@hotmail.com), October 17, 2002.

Hi Christine I saw a picture of the Pope you mention and I was struck with how he radiates just like St Pio. Im going to find out a bit more about him :). Blessings

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), October 17, 2002.

Christine,

Yeah, isn't that sad about Thomas Kempis? I learned that a couple of years ago from my spiritual director at the time. Seems, they found scratch marks on his grave, which meant that he was trying to get out, and therefore, they concluded that he despaired because, as you have said, he was not resigned.

-- (seminarian@ziplip.com), October 17, 2002.

It's both sad and scary -- that's one of my worst fears!!!

But I still can't see how it keeps him from being a saint -- I mean, I don't care how saintly you are, waking up six feet under can't be a lot of fun. :-(

-- Christine L. (chris_tine_lehman@hotmail.com), October 17, 2002.

I have read that Pope John XXIII was very heavily embalmed on purpose, for this reason, so that he would be incorrupt. This was attested to by one of the embalmers. Even if he weren't embalmed heavily, being incorrupt in this day and age isn't such a fantastic thing, due to embalming, hermetically sealed vaults, etc.

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), October 17, 2002.

Geez, Christine. That's a sad story. lol! That was a big problem in the past, getting buried alive. They had all sorts of patents for devices to prevent this kind of thing, like a bell over the grave with a string attached to the interior of the coffin through a tube.

Seems like a little clawing and scratching is acceptable in that situation, wouldn't you think? =0 I have no idea why that would stop a cannonization by itself.

When I was a kid, I thought "Imitation of Christ" was... depressing. But now it makes a lot of sense, and I do like the book much.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 17, 2002.

Christina, may I recommend a really good book? It's called "The American Way of Death" by Jessica Mitford, and is an expose of American funeral practices. In it she discussed (in gruesome detail) the fact that embalming a body not only does NOT keep a body "incorrupt" but makes it decay in more grotesque, disgusting ways.

I do not think this is the reason Pope John XXIII's body was incorrupt! :-)

-- Christine L. (chris_tine_lehman@hotmail.com), October 18, 2002.

This seems like as good a place as any to bring the issue of cremation. Now I know the Church at one time didn't allow it, but my understanding is that they now do. If that's the case, I can certainly appreciate it as it seems the most intelligent and even fitting way to handle things.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 18, 2002.

Emerald,

From what I have read, cremation was formerly not allowed by the Church. The Church was not responding to the act of cremation; instead, it was responding to the intent of those who practiced it. At the time, some people did not believe in the Christian belief in the resurrection of the body (at the end of time). The use of cremation was a statement of denial of this truth. Because cremation cannot prevent the resurrection of the body, the act itself isn't really a big deal.

Enjoy,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), October 18, 2002.

You're right, Mateo. In fact, I think there are some countries where cremation is pretty much required due to lack of space for cemeteries, or for health reasons.

As long as there's no denial of the importance of the body, go ahead and burn the body at both ends! ;-)

-- Christine L. (chris_tinelehman@hotmail.com), October 18, 2002.

No way Im going to a firey end! Death is a religious thing, the symbolisim of getting fried to a crip sends out all the wrong messages about death and the after life! Leave it to Protestants to go this way, quite apt realy ;) Leave me to the worms! Im being silly as usual of course. Blessings

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), October 18, 2002.

crip= crisp

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), October 18, 2002.

Emerald,

I've already told my wife that I wish to be cremated as long as the Church allows it. However, I would like my ashes buried and not kept on someone's mantle. I believe this is the ecological correct thing to do.

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), October 18, 2002.

This comes from Blessed Pope Pius IX, in the Allocution called "Quanto conficiamur moerore" to the bishops of Italy on August 10, 1863. Notice that he starts and ends with the affirmation of the dogma that 'there is no salvation outside the Church', yet in the middle, it seems as though there is some 'hope' for others. I would posit that this middle part refers to the fact that God in His mercy will lead those particular people mentioned into the Church, as opposed to the notion, or the interpretation, that they may be somehow saved while remaining outside it in any manner. I believe that if there is any misinterpretation of these matters, that it comes from those who do not wholeheartedly uphold the dogma of the Catholic Church being the only means of salvation.

"And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of al by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well- known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate them selves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of PETER, to whom "the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior [Council of Chalcedon, 451 A. D.]," cannot obtain eternal salvation."

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 18, 2002.

Well, that was stupid. I posted that last message to the wrong thread. If you wondered what in the world I was talking about, you wondered correctly ~ sorry!

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 19, 2002.

Hello, Glenn. You wrote:
"However, I would like my ashes buried and not kept on someone's mantle. I believe this is the ecological correct thing to do."

Well, I doubt that it matters ecologically, but your family -- if they want to be obedient Catholics -- have no choice but to bury your "cremains" [cremated remains]. In 1997, the U.S. bishops' conference published "Reflections on the Body, Cremation, and Catholic Funeral Rites." Basing itself on the Vatican's "Order of Christian Funerals" (including a 1997 appendix specifically on cremation), "Reflections ..." states:
"The cremated remains should be buried in a grave or entombed in a mausoleum or columbarium. The practice of scattering cremated remains on the sea, from the air, or on the ground, or keeping cremated remains in the home of a relative or friend of the deceased are not the reverent disposition that the Church requires. Whenever possible, appropriate means for recording with dignity the memory of the deceased should be adopted, such as a plaque or stone which records the name of the deceased."

Here is an article about the former and current Church disciplines regarding cremation.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 22, 2002.

Thanks John. I was hoping someone knew the correct Catholic doctrine on cremation. I remember when one of the Kennedy's had his ashes spread (in the ocean?), there was a stink about it.

And thank you very much for the link.

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), October 23, 2002.

Glenn,

"I remember when one of the Kennedy's had his ashes spread (in the ocean?), there was a stink about it."

I hope you mean that there was a stink about the spreading of the ashes, not the ashes themsleves! Ha Ha!

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), October 23, 2002.

Jake, thanks for the chuckle.

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), October 23, 2002.

lol good job, Jake. Some of the best humor comes from word ambiguity.

In fact, I look at my orginal post and saw that I said "exhumed Padre Pio's grave", not his body.

A mind is a terrible thing...

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 23, 2002.

The SUN tabloid newspaper just came out with an article saying that Padre Pio's body was missing when they opened the grave but his robe and sandals were there. They also said his tomb had been covered with three tons of cement to prevent any theft of his body. It seems to me that I just saw a picture of his tomb but don't know when it was taken. I also know that the requirements for submitting an article to the SUN are basic: "If they believe it, we will print it." So that is no evidence. Anyone else hear anything about it?

Maggie

-- Maggie L. Cooper (Whynhema@aol.com), November 10, 2002.