For my Protestant brothers and sisters:

Here are but a mere few of the many many quotes about Mary by the Early Church Fathers. For other quotes concerning Mary, Purgatory, prayer to the saints, by the Church fathers, please go to http://www.cin.org

Pay particular attention to the quotes by Augustine, who is a much honored Church Father. Protestants and Catholics alike deem him an important instrument in the early church's formation and doctrine.

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair; for there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother. Of these two fair ones, to whom are my children similar?" Ephraem,Nisbene Hymns,27:8(ante A.D. 373),in THEO,132

"Whoever honors the Lord also honors the holy [vessel]; who instead dishonors the holy vessel also dishonors his Master. Mary herself is that holy Virgin, that is, the holy vessel" Epiphanius,Panarion,78:21(A.D. 377),in MFC,127

"And if the God-bearing flesh was not ordained to be assumed of the lump of Adam, what need was there of the Holy Virgin?" Basil,To the Sozopolitans,Epistle 261(A.D. 377),in NPNF2,VIII:300

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one." Origen,Homily 1(A.D. 244),in ULL,94

Devotion to and Intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary

"For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:547

"Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed." Sub Tuum Praesidium, Egypt 3rd Century, From Rylands Papyrus,in MCF,79

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin,71:216(ante AD 373),in MCF,106

"Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground." Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 24:11(A.D. 379),in MCF,167

"Let, then, the life of Mary be as it were virginity itself, set forth in a likeness, from which, as from a mirror, the appearance of chastity and the form of virtue is reflected.... Nor would I hesitate to admit you to the altars of God, whose souls I would without hesitation call altars, on which Christ is daily offered for the redemption of the body. For if the virgin's body be a temple of God, what is her soul, which, the ashes, as it were, of the body being shaken off, once more uncovered by the hand of the Eternal Priest, exhales the vapour of the divine fire. Blessed virgins, who emit a fragrance through divine grace as gardens do through flowers, temples through religion, altars through the priest." Ambrose, On Virginity II:6,18(AD 378),in NPNF2,X:374,376

"For it is said that he[Gregory the Wonderworker] heard the one who had appeared in womanly form exhorting John the Evangelist to explain to the young man the mystery of the true faith. John, in his turn, declared that he was completely willing to please the Mother of the Lord even in this matter and this was the one thing closest to his heart. And so the discussion coming to a close, and after they had made it quite clear and precise for him, the two disappeared from his sight." Gregory of Nyssa,On Gregory the WonderWorker(AD 380),PG 46:912,in MCF,94

"Mary, the holy Virgin, is truly great before God and men. For how shall we not proclaim her great, who held within her the uncontainable One, whom neither heaven nor earth can contain?" Epiphanius, Panarion, 30:31(ante AD 403),in MCF,127

In light of the Marian heresy of adoration(Collyridians): "Let Mary be held in honour. Let the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost be adored, but let no one adore Mary" Epiphanius,ten Marian medeis prosknueito(ante AD 403),in CE

"Give milk, Mother to him who is our food, give milk to the bread coming down from heaven ... give milk to him who made you such that he could be made fruitfulness in conception and in birth, did not take from you the ornament of virginity." Augustine,Sermon 369:1(AD 430),in THEO,187

"Hail to thee Mary, Mother of God, to whom in towns and villages and in island were founded churches of true believers" Cyril of Alexandria, Homily 11(ante AD 444),in CE

"Hail, our desirable gladness; Hail, O rejoicing of the Churches; Hail, O name that breathes out sweetness; Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace; Hail, most venerable memory;" Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 4:3(ante AD 446),in MCF,267

"The Virgin's festival (parthenike panegyris) incites our tongue today to herald her praise ... handmaid and Mother, Virgin and heaven, the only bridge of God to men, the awful loom of the Incarnation, in which by some unspeakable way the garment of that union was woven, whereof the weaver is the Holy Ghost; and the spinner the overshadowing from on high; the wool the ancient fleece of Adam; the woof the undefiled flesh from the virgin, the weaver's shuttle the immense grace of Him who brought it about; the artificer the Word gliding through the hearing" Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1(ante AD 446),in CE

"The Virgin received Salvation so that she may give it back to the centuries." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140(ante AD 450),in MIRA,16

"O Virgin all holy, he who has said of you all that is honorable and glorious has not sinned against the truth, but remains unequal to your merit. Look down upon us from above and be propitious to us. Lead us in peace and having brought us without shame to the throne of judgment, grant us a place at the right hand of your Son, that we may borne off to heaven and sing with angels to the uncreated, consubstantial Trinity" Basil of Seleucia, PG 85:452(ante AD 459),in THEO,187 "Raised to heaven, she remains for the human race an unconquerable rampart, interceding for us before her Son and God." Theoteknos of Livias, Assumption 291(ante AD 560),in THEO,187

"Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, because thou didst conceive Christ, the Son of God, the Redeemer of our souls" Coptic Ostraca (AD 600),in CE

Regarding Mary's "Stainlessness"

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one." Origen,Homily 1(A.D. 244),in ULL,94

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." "Ephraem,Nisibene Hymns,27:8(A.D. 370),in THEO,132

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose,Sermon 22:30(A.D. 388),in JUR,II:166

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin." Augustine,Nature and Grace,42[36](A.D.415),in NPNF1,V:135

"As he formed her without my stain of her own,so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople,Homily 1(ante A.D. 446),in ULL,97

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya,Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446),in THEO,339

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus,Sermon 140(A.D. 449),in ULL,97

Joseph A. Gallegos © 2002 All Rights Reserved.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 20, 2002

Answers

If we are to look at history, we must take all accounts.

Let it be also noted that many people were killed and/or persecutted, by the Catholic Church, for doing such things as, reading, writing, and quoting the Scriptures in English in history.

This is not a fairy tail or made up by a Protestant. Accounts have been recorded as Fact by many sources. Thus we have the term Martyrs.

You ask, what does this have to do with Mary.

The point I make, is that at the same time these men were claiming the perfection of Mary, they [not necessarily all of these people or any - but definitly the Catholic Church] were persecuting people for merely searching the scriptures to get closer to God.

I know this will clearly boil the temper of some, but facts remain facts, regardless of our emotions...

I say this to show that the words of man does not prove the case alone. We must hold the scripture [Word of God] above the words of man, for they were given to Holy Men taught by the Holy Spirit. Not that the Holy Spirit can't teach men today. He can and does. But, does not contradict was has already been taught from God.

All I ask is for you to reframe from becoming mad at me for the facts. It was neither my fault nor yours. Check history yourself.

We are all sinners, needing the grace of God! And people should not be presecuted for what they believe - corrected yes - persecuted no.

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 20, 2002.

Perhaps your response, TLW, would be better on a different thread, called, "The sins of our ancestors." And I'm sure there are many. That doesn't have anything to do with my postings, but was a simple "I don't know how to answer this, so I'll throw a stray ball and see if she'll go for it" debate tactic.

But, since you mentioned it, and as you may or may not know, Luther's Reformation, or revolution, caused the deaths of THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS OF Catholic peasants and set off religious wars all across Europe. Should Luther, your forefather, be held accountable? And consequently all of his followers? What about Luther's anti-semitic disposition, of which Hitler relied upon in his persecution of the jews? So following your logic, we can deem nothing worthwhile from Luther either, and we can certainly hold all of his followers liable. What is that about "People who live in glass houses . . ."

My point was that the Church fathers certainly did esteem Mary highly as you can see. St. Augustine, who was instrumental in the canonization of our N.T. and the doctrine of the Trinity, certainly did seem to think a lot about Mary. The guotes of Ignatius, who was a direct disciple of the Apostle John should surely be noteworthy.

Now, as to scripture, what does scripture say? "Mary, highly favored one, full of grace," "All generations shall call me blessed," "The mother of my Lord," "My babe lept in my womb at the sound of your (Mary's) voice." (by Elizabeth's annuniciation) "A sword shall pierce your heart so that the thoughts of men will be revealed." Simon) "Mary kept these things in her heart." There are only two scriptures using the word "Hail" "Hail King Jesus," and the angel's "Hail, Mary" (Sorry I don't have time to look up the scripture sites, but I'm sure you're familiar with them.)

She was the most blessed of women, according to God, through the annunciation of the angel. Can you admit that? She also had a singularly magnificent role as no other human being in history, she bore God in her womb!

Since it is so easily proven that the Bible and our Early Church Fathers esteemed Mary highly, YOU are off the beaten path! And if you think that Jesus did not honor Mary, then you accuse Him of breaking the commandment "Honor thy father AND thy mother," which would make Him a sinner.

Be careful if you are tempted to mock the mother of our Lord. There is no greater offense to a son than to mock his mother!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 20, 2002.

"We must hold the scripture [Word of God] above the words of man, for they were given to Holy Men taught by the Holy Spirit."

Tim, you have a Bible sitting somewhere on a desk near you right now, or in your lap or on a table, right?

That Sacred document you possess was passed down from man to man through the ages to finally rest in the place it sits right now, on your desk, lap or table. I believe that it is the word of God, as do you. But you cannot escape the fact that man had to be entrusted not to alter, delete or add to that book throughtout the ages... that very book you possess at this time. I do believe there is a hidden assent inside your mind that the God has acted through men, be they good or bad, to pass that document through the ages in order to reach you unstained. It is possible, is it not, that man may have added, subtracted, or mutated that document, correct? But you do not believe that, nor do I, because there is an implicit trust in God that He will not ultimately allow His people to remain deceived. But either way, whether you openly admit it or not, God has acted to fulfill his objectives through men, regardless of the individual man's response to His call. This is an important recognition. Your friends help you in the prayers they say for you, in the body of Christ. What is painfully missing outside of Catholicism is that all encompassing and carefully woven mystical body of christ... of the church militant, suffering and triumphant, and of Mary's role in salvation, and the teaching authority of the Church... all elements working together for the salvation of God's chosen ones, all elements working in harmony together cheering for the success of its militant fallen members. It is a thing of beauty. Trust God to work His miracles despite the failures of mere men.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 20, 2002.

An interesting thing Tim, is how many Protestants I know would like to dismiss at times the very nature of man by relegating the highest part of his nature to the dust bin. That higher part of man is the ability to reason; that part by which we can know causes and thereby have knowledge of our Creator. This, imho, is what it is about us that is in the "image and likeness of God".

The Catholic Church is a church has has upheld the value of philosophy throughout the ages. St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine had a deep respect for the efforts of the ancient philosophers... Aristotle, Plato, and many others. In keeping with the respect of man's ability to reason to truth, they took the best of what these men had reasoned to and carefully meshed much of it, non- contradictorily, into the body of Divine Revelation imparted to us by Christ.

At the same time though, the Catholic Church is heavily respectful of authority and obedience, recognizing that while man has this inborn ability to attain truth by reasoning, that reason alone cannot absolutely not attain perfection and salvation... and also, that it may fall into error.

It comes down then to reason and error, doctrine and obedience.

This explains, to me at least, the observable contradiction in Protestantism: that those who discount the higher part of man, reason, use endless reasonings and arguments in order to resist obedience and authority.

I remember a line from the movie The Patriot, where the main character when first presented with the decision as to whether to submit to or reject the authority of the King of England says "I would rather have one tyrant three thousand miles away than three thousand tyrants one mile away".

To decline a unified authority in a church, and deny obedience to it, requires one to pick up the banner of reason and philosophy and run with it; but philosophy is not theology.

Hey Tim, you are a good man. God bless.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 20, 2002.

I ditto that, Emerald. Very nice job!

Tim, I would also add to what Emerald just this: The very nature of Protestant is "Protest" which is its root word. It seems since I left Protestantism I note that spirit of rebellion amongst my brothers and sisters from that sphere. They become enraged, filled with unreasonable hatred at the thought of the Catholic Church. It's evil, they say. It's diabolical. It's an abomination.

The Protestant Reformation was in essence a "great rebellion" and most Protestants are quite proud of that rebellion because they see it as an "enlightenment." But is it really? The Reformers jettisoned the traditions of the Church, traditions that were given prophetically by God to EDIFY his body. Hence, we have now 30,000 Protestant world-wide denominations all claiming to have the corner on the truth. They certainly do have SOME of the truth and have done well in reaching the world with that little bit. But the riches, the glory, the splendor and ALL of the thus far revealed truth comes from the Church Christ instituted. How great is our God?

What if the Catholic Church really IS the church Jesus founded, Tim? Then that rebellion, the badge of honor for the Reformers and their successors, would be against Christ himself, would it not? Much like the rebellion of Korah in the wilderness against Moses, much like the complaint of the Israelites as they wandered through the desert. "Give us meat," they said. "We're tired of manna." God's response, "I'll give you meat 'till its coming out your nose" "We don't like this Church, we want to build our own. Give us that Bible, we'll interpret it ourselves" "I'll give you Churches, 30,000 of 'em, have fun trying to figure out which one." How is one to know which one. And if the Church is "The pillar and foundation of the truth," which church?

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 20, 2002.

"The Protestant Reformation was in essence a "great rebellion" and most Protestants are quite proud of that rebellion because they see it as an "enlightenment.""

Exactly... and what has been enlightened? That's the question; those 30,000 churches you mentioned would have to all come to some concensus on a universal formula for salvation. They have pretty much done this to some degree, too, with the 'accept Christ as your personal savior" formula. This is quite a reduction of the formula of salvation! And it produces more questions than it answers. With the introduction of each new denomination, the formula of salvation reduces to a lower a lower common denominator, until much of the Gospel of Christ because null and void, or so much useless baggage, and finally the notion that "all you have to do is be a generally good person and you will go to Heaven".

Thanks for your conversion, Gail. I know that that's a strange 'thankyou' but every one helps so much.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 20, 2002.

Thanks Emerald!

The last Protestant church I was part of had a great emphasis on "getting the gospel to kids on the street" which of course is a fantastic mission.

However, the gospel they presented was in essence this, "Jesus kicked the devil's butt on the cross." They then proceeded to show with diagrams how Satan was dismantled by the cross, which isn't bad in and of itself, but the "altar call" was this: "Who wants to kick the devil's butts, Kids?" Of course, hands went up everywhere. "Then say this prayer after me," . . . No mention was made of repentence or baptism, the two prerequesites for salvation!

Of course, at least 40 kids per night raised their hands, the Pastor puts it on his "saved" tally, and onward they go, shipping in more kids from the streets to "kick the devil's butt".

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 20, 2002.

Gail

Granted, I should have reframed from my post, to a more appointed time. It was just my thought after reading your post.

I do not look down at Mary, but I do not hold her as high has the Catholic Church either. I believe she was a special woman in the eyes of God, and was given the ultimate previllage to carring our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I believe that she was a Christian, and is now in Heaven with the rest of the Believers gone on before us. But, I do not believe that I can speak to her now, nor can she speak on my behalf to Jesus Christ. This doesn't mean I mock her.

Emerald

"This explains, to me at least, the observable contradiction in Protestantism: that those who discount the higher part of man, reason, use endless reasonings and arguments in order to resist obedience and authority."

This may be true for some Protestants, but not all. I do not believe that God likes rebellion when it is a product of ones selfish self. For man has been in rebellion since Adam and Eve took the words of the serpent over the words of God.

I believe that we should be obedient to Christ and our ministers. But, I claim this defense to the Reformation. We must use the "That higher part of man is the ability to reason" which allows the Spirit of God to work in us and show us truth in His Word.

I believe 100% that God used the men to translate the KJV into English for the purpose of using it to bring men closer to Him. I believe that that bible is exactly the way God wanted [without error] for us to have. Many people like to say that men wrote it and men are not perfect - To them I say correct! But, I add - [Luke 1:37] For with GOD nothing shall be IMPOSSIBLE.

With that, although I agree that we should be obedient to our pastor because we believe he is close to God and wants to show us the truth. But, when and if [God forbid] they alter the truth, whether purposely or inadvertenly, we must take the stand on the Word of God.

In other words, the man of God and the Word of God should be the same. But, when the man is contrary to the Word, we must be in obedience to the Word. For it is not rebellion to be obedient to the Word and reject the man, but to be obedient to the man and reject the Word.

Gail

"What if the Catholic Church really IS the church Jesus founded, Tim?"

I could pose the same question to you: What if the Catholic Church is not the church Jesus founded?

Although man is not perfect, and surly we will have much to account for when we see Jesus. For all the times we did not do the things we knew deep within that He wanted us to do.

It comes to what we put our trust in to give entrance into Heaven. I believe that the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross gives the forgiveness of sins. I believe that when a man or woman come to Christ with a heart that the Holy Spirit is working on, they come to terms that they are a sinner bound for Hell and need Jesus Christ to save their soul. The act of the prayer of the mouth to ask Christ to save them and come into their lives is from the emotions of a true heart's desire to serve Him. In the very moment this is done, the blood of Jesus Christ covers the sinner, and makes them white as snow. Although we do not become perfect, the Spirit works in us from that time until we die to bring us closer to God. Although not perfect, we should be a better picture of a Christian when we die, than the day we got saved.

Granted many Protestant hold many different beliefs - and not all of them can be truth, but so do Catholics. There are many Catholics that I talk to that don't believe certain things, but remain Catholics.

My point is, that although our desire should be to serve the ultimate Truth, and never a lie - we are mere man, and we fall short of the Truth when we serve the flesh instead of heeding to the Spirit of Truth. That is why there are so many religions running around today. I would say that most probably desire to serve God with their heart, but have failed to follow the Word of God correctly in all areas. Note: I do not believe I have it all figured out either, but I believe that I hold all of my beliefs according scripture.

As I mentioned above [salvation through Christ alone] this alone gets us into Heaven. To be honest, I believe that if a person gets this one thing, and one day in their life the Spirit of God led them to the understanding they were a sinner and needed to ask God to forgive them and cleanse them with His blood - they are saved, and even if they are swept away in a false religion, they will still go to Heaven.

As far "Jesus kicked the devil's butt on the cross."

I agree with you here. It burns my heart that we have churches across the world that are leading people to Hell. Giving them a false sense of godliness but dening the power. How many souls have entered Hell, believeing that one day they raised their hand and repeated a prayer that it was enough. Oh, how many... :(

This fact remains hard to explain to people. Yes I believe that if someone admits that they are a sinner and pray to ask God to forgive them and to come into their lives and save them, that He does save them and they are on their way to Heaven. The problem lies in that it is not just the mere praying of words...It must be of the heart!

Romans 10:10 - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I especially fear for the children, because they trust adults so much and so much want to please us. We must be carefully with children that they do the will of God, and not just try to please us by doing what they think we want them to do.

Although we do not agree in everything. I have enjoyed the time spent conversing with you both.

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 20, 2002.

"I believe 100% that God used the men to translate the KJV into English for the purpose of using it to bring men closer to Him. I believe that that bible is exactly the way God wanted [without error] for us to have. Many people like to say that men wrote it and men are not perfect - To them I say correct! But, I add - [Luke 1:37] For with GOD nothing shall be IMPOSSIBLE."

Aha! So there is, then, an argument acceptable to you as for a magisterium guided by the Holy Spirit... yes? The next step, then, would be to determine where that magisterium is.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 20, 2002.

The begining question was.....

"For My Protestant Brothers and Sisters: What did the Early Church Fathers think about Mary? "

Sometimes the answer is a question.

Who is more honorable, one who carries the word in their belly or one who carries the word in their mouth/heart?

That was given to me by the spirit. EAT!!!

-- me (you@dontknow.com), October 20, 2002.

"Me" writes:

"Who is more honorable, one who carries the word in their belly or one who carries the word in their mouth/heart?"

This is an interesting point, considering Mary's response when God's angel visited her. When the angel visited Mary, Mary gave herself entirely to God. From the scriptures, Mary is the first believer in Our Lord. She and Elizabeth even identify them as their "Lord" when he is in the womb.

Mary said "Yes" to God. She was doing much more than carrying "the word [Jesus] in [her] belly."

Luke 1:30-31, 38, 41-49

"And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.

And Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word."

And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord." And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name."

In Christ,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), October 21, 2002.

Hey Tim:

You said,

"I believe 100% that God used the men to translate the KJV into English for the purpose of using it to bring men closer to Him. I believe that that bible is exactly the way God wanted [without error] for us to have."

The Douay-Rheims (commissioned by the Catholic Church) was translated into English BEFORE the KJV! And you do know that the Reformers took 7 books out of the Bible that had been there all along, right? Actually the books were phased out over a period of 200 years or so post reformation. Did you know that there were monestaries all throughout the middle ages that were dedicated to hand copying the scriptures. What a painstaking task! Monks dedicating their lives to such work. The end-product was priceless. Only the very rich could afford a copy of the Bible. The Bibles were chained to the altar to keep vandals from stealing them.

Also, as to your comments about folks reading the Bible and being put to death, etc. Are you referring to Wycliffe and folks like him? Most folks were peasants and uneducated during the Middle Ages. They certainly did not have the skills necessary for reading and interpreting scripture. Also, private Bible reading and interpretation lead to schisms, as we have seen from the Reformation. I have read quotes of popes throughout the ages who encouraged knowing the scriptures nonetheless. The Church did guard against schism zealously, foreseeing that schisms could destroy the church. The Mass, even today, has more scripture reading that any church I've ever been in! Three long portions of text are read every Sunday!

You said, "What if the Catholic Church isn't the church Jesus founded?" But history OVERWHELMINGLY proves that it is! I don't say that presumptuously. REALLY, I DON'T! I WAS SHOCKED at this discovery, couldn't sleep, rattled me to my very core. Apostolic succession is recorded in antiquity by church historians such as Eusebius, who is well-known by Protestant theologians, and well thought of. Much of the post-apostolic information we have today comes from Eusebius. (If you would like to read the Early Church Fathers' writings and Eusebius, go to www.ccel.org.) It's all online. Fascinating! The Church was organic, stemming from the apostles themselves, branching out all over the world, one cohesive unit! There is no doubt! Until the Reformation.

Jesus instituted an active, living, vital, authoritative Church. Paul denounced divisions as I'm sure you know. "I follow Apollos," etc., etc. Schisms are deadly. I just lost my best friend, an evangelical fundamentalist. She cannot abide by becoming Catholic.

Also, you said there are divisions in Catholocism. Right you are! There are people within the church who dissent. There are traditionalists and ultra liberals. But the fact remains we have one Catechism which we can "if willing," to consult. Protestants do not have that central instruction. They try to say the Bible is enough, but the divisions prove that it is not. There is no arbitrator! There is no one to slam the gavel at the heretic on TBN proclaiming false gospels. They go on and on, spawning new heretics along the way, and misleading MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of people. Poor people in third world countries being told that if they invest what little they have, that God will give them a hundredfold return on their dollar!

Your analysis of "salvation" is correct. We wouldn't disagree. But the fullness of the faith, and all that Jesus means for us to have of that fullness is found in the Church He instituted.

Well, I'm writing a book. Sorry!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 21, 2002.

Me apparently hasn't read the quotes. It's pretty obvious what the early church thought of Mary! Your "question/answer" simply avoids the obvious answer -- an obvious attempt at rabbit-trailing!

Did they extol Mary or not? Yes or No?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 21, 2002.

If it has already been said, well, I'll just say it again:

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, and fill in any blanks that you see. But...

Even Luther himself respected Mary! In fact, if we read his 95 point thesis, it says nothing of Mary, the Body and Blood of Christ, it doesn't refute the existence of Purgatory, and it says nothing of prayers to the saints, statues, etc.

Read carefully and with an understanding of Luther’s past, one realizes that Luther was simply upset at some of the abuses that were going on in the Church (one in particular). Luther was angry that some Church authorities were selling indulgences to fund the building of a Cathedral. Yes, this was erroneous! But was it cause for complete abandonment of most, if not all, of the Church's history and tradition? No! Furthermore, Luther was at a time in his life where he wanted to come closer to God. He was in one of those empty spells we all go through. So while at a seminary, one of his mentors told him to read the Scriptures and he would find his answer there. In reading the Scripture he was lead by "the Spirit" (rather - a spirit, and an evil one at that) to attack the Church with his 95pt thesis. So instead of lovingly trying to admonish those Church authoritys, he hammered his thesis to the door, and went off. Instead of tacktfully trying to talk to a Bishop in private and respectfully, he went about his "reformation" in a rash and hateful way in the public! Rather than sticking with the Church and trying to reform her from the inside (like the great St. Francis of Assisi), Luther would not patiently endure and instead went and got himself excommunicated. All good things come to those who wait, and unfortunately for Luther (and the Church), he just wanted things done on his time rather than Gods. And thus began a snowball of hate for the Church and an abandonment of tradition that Luther himself had not intended to occur!

In the spirit of protest (rather than reform), and in an effort to be as little "Catholic" as possible, individuals continue to "interpret" the Bible (or should I say - manipulate the Bible) to serve their cause. When in actuality, up to the time of Luther (and including Luther himself) ALL those who believed in God and loved Jesus and the Church he founded, had NO problem with any of the Holy Traditions (like Mary, the Saints, Infant baptism, statues, purgatory, etc.).

Yes, at times those individual men inside the Church sin. Who among the protestant churches doesn't sin? But Christ promised his Church that He would always be there for us. And He and His Apostles more than anything wanted unity. Luther must have skipped that part when he was reading, because had he kept "unity" in mind, he might not have left the Church to reform her (more accurately, reform those individuals inside her); but rather stay with the Church and help to lead her from the inside, abiding in the Gospel and keeping unity, patiently awaiting the reformation of those who would abuse her.

Hope this helps!

Thanks Gail for your posts. You bring up some very very important facts, for which our Savior Jesus, His Mother Mary and our Holy Church must be very proud.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), October 21, 2002.

HOW COULD I FORGET LUTHER'S QUOTES ON MARY? Shame on me!

Here we go:

1. Commentary on the Hail Mary (Luther's Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40 , ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968)". . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her." 2. Sermon on John 14. 16: Luther's Works ( (St. Louis, ed. Jaroslav, Pelican, Concordia. vol. 24. p. 107: ". . . she is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God. . . . it is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God." 3. On the Gospel of St. John: Luther's Works, vol. 22. p. 23, ed. Jaroslav Pelican, Concordia, 1957): "Christ our Savior was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb. . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." Martin Luther is a subject definitely deserving his own thread. You are right, Jake, his 95 thesis only had to do with abuses on indulgences. Remember Luther was a fierce advocate of the Eucharist as well. In a way, Luther is a very tragic figure in history. He was volatile, tempermental, vulgar. He had a horrible earthly father that was tremendously abusive. He could not contemplate "grace" fully without jettisoning "works" altogether. He tried to have the books of James, Hebrew, Revelations and, I think, 2nd Peter thrown out of the N.T. because they referred to works and judgment. I guess his psychological makeup couldn't fathom the mercy of God with the justice of God.

I don't believe he "initially" set-off to cause the Reformation. His peers and the political climate at that time were condusive to that end, setting off a firestorm of political/religious wars all across Europe. Luther, himself, I have read, was grieved over the 100 denominations that sprung up by the end of his life and the strife that was caused by the revolution.

Final analogy, God did allow the Reformation, for His own good reasons. However, the schism between Catholics and Protestants has been deadly to say the least. Who knows how many have died? We still bear the scars of that schism and only Christ can heal it as we love each other and reach out to each other, united in Him!

Their are magnificent men of God of the Protestant persuasion who, though they may be compelled by their consciences not to receive the Catholic Church, they are men of peace, such as Billy Graham and others like him, who seek no division, but unity! And for them I am grateful!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 21, 2002.

-- (:@:.:), October 26, 2002.