It seems like for years the conventional alternative health wisdom (how's that for an oxymoron?) has been that postmenopausal women should eat a lot of soy products. Now I'm seeing that soy may not be so good after all. Is it because of GE concerns with the soybeans or something else?

I probably could have put this in the new health thread but I wanted to make the new questions screen look bigger! :)

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2002

Answers

A new thread is fine.

I've been hearing bad things about soy for sometime now, too. In fact, I was just reading about it in Nourishing Traditions. I'll have to go get the book and see if I can summarize what she has to say. I know that FERMENTED is supposed to be okay (miso, tempeh, natto -- whatever that is).

Okay, back with the book: "Soybeans are high in phytates and contain potent enzyme inhibitors can lead to protein assimilation problems in those who consume unfermented soy products frequently. Soybeans must not be used like other legumes in soups and other dishes but only as fermented products like miso, natto and tempeh. It is also a mistake to rely on tofu or bean curd as a protein food because of it's high phytate content. Those who wish to eat tofu would be wise to imitate the Japanese who eat small amounts of tofu in fish broth and not as a substitute for animal foods. Soy milk, often substituted for cow's milk, also has a high phytate content and can lead to mineral deficiences. Phytoestrogens found in soy foods, although touted as panaceas for heart disease, cancer, and osteoporosis, are potent endocrine disrupters as well as goitrogens---substances that depress thyroid function."

Conventionally-raised cattle are being fed more and more soybean feeds. People well familiar with cattle blame this soybean increase for the shortened lifespan of cattle and the early failure of their milk production. It does, however, cause the cows to produce huge amounts of milk in their first two lactations. :-(

I don't much like any soybean products. Soy sauce occasionally, but even then, it usually has wheat in it. I do have wheat-free tamari sauce. Now that I'm not eating rice, I don't really even need that.

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2002

I used to use soy milk with my chocolate chip cookies (couldn't give up both, could I) but then I started noticing that I'd feel just a little stomach upset after eating them and thought it was the cookies. It wasn't. So now I'm eating the chocolate chip cookies with the cream center. Yum... Okay, so everything I eat isn't organic.

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2002

Okay...now I'm REALLY confused!! I've been taking supplemental soy isoflavone tablets for almost a year now for menopausal symptoms. These tablets contain 40 mg. of soy and a minimal amount (77 mg.) of calcium. I also take black cohosh tablets daily. Should I discontinue the soy??? I most certainly do not want to do the HRT "route"! I'm so confused! Help...E.M.!!!

BTW...Sherri. With only four new questions on that screen, I'm getting just a little nervoous, too :-)!!

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2002

Hey, you guys aint payin attention!! :) I tol you about all this stuff over a year ago!

The info about soy being basically an anti-nutrient made sense to me from the first time I started reading about it. I stay clear of it; a little tofu or soy milk once in awhile wont hurt of course (although why anyone would bother is beyond me since it has no taste......for a real treat, try soy cheese!! yummm!!:()

There are excellent herbal remedies for anything HRT claims to help. What symptoms are you concerned about?

For hormone balance during menopause, get you some teas: horsetail, red clover, oatstraw, nettle. Drink some every day. I do one a day, two if I have the chance. If they taste nasty to you, mix it with some kind you enjoy to cover up the taste.

Best prevention for bone loss is resistance exercise, and staying away from caffeine and sugar.

Here's the whole speil on soy from Sally Fallon, author of the book Joy mentioned, which you can buy through me iffen you wanna.

soy alert

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2002

susun Weed has a book on menopause, lots of herbals in her recommendations. Usually, the library has a copy, if you want to read before you buy (I'm doing that more and more lately).

-- Anonymous, October 29, 2002

By all means check out the Susun Weed book if you can to see if you like it. Just thought I would chime in and tell you I wholeheartedly agree that it is an excellent book and so are her others. I have almost all of them!

-- Anonymous, October 29, 2002

Hey, you guys aint payin attention!! :) I tol you about all this stuff over a year ago!

It just takes things a little while to percolate through the many layers of my brain EM! :) Since I may be starting to show some pre- premenopause symptoms I thought I'd better start paying attention to this stuff! Thanks for the link, it answered my question. I was wondering if the phytoestrogens might also be linked to breast cancer like the synthetic HRT seems to be, and it looks like they are.

There are lots of good herbal menopause books out there. In addition to Susun Weed there's also books by Rosemary Gladstar, Amanda McQuade, and Deb Soule (I'm not sure if I got the spelling of that last one right). Susun Weed also has a good book about breast cancer.

-- Anonymous, October 29, 2002

Small amounts of ORGANIC soymilk are OK, the key is moderation!!! For me, I use it over cereal and oatmeal as I cannot tolerate even small amounts of milk, the lactose intolerance thingie and allergies ( makes my joints hurt badly!!!).

Phytates are in lots of often eaten foods, spinach is a biggie, but we don't arbitrarily dis spinach and never eat it again, do we? Moderation and even more moderation!

For perimenopausal symptoms, I have great luck with whole herb red clover capsules, two capsules twice a day. Red clover is loaded with natural phytoestrogens, but no phytates. Promensil is a widly availabel red clover product, standardized to to contain consistent levels of phytoestrogens in every dose, it is pricier than plain red clover capsules, so I figure, take what's cheap as long as it still is effective. Will use the Promensil when the symptoms don't respond enough to the red clover capsules though!

Black cohosh gives me migraines, which took me quite awhile to figure out, but it must be the estrogen effect that causes the head pain.

BTW, what brand of progesterone cream do you all use? I have been "being cheap" and using the off branded types, but I strongly suspect they aren't as effective, what do you all think? I am going to go back to using Emerita again, I know it works ;-), don't feel like killing by DH anymore!!!!

-- Anonymous, October 29, 2002

Boy, E.M. It's a really good thing that you don't give us "pop quizzes"!! I do believe that we might all flunk! Please forgive me for my CRS :-)! After reading that soy alert link you posted, I poured the rest of my soy tablets down the drain...with the iodized salt!! I'll stick with the black cohosh, though. Since I'm not crazy about teas...except for green tea (mandarin/spice...mmmm!) and iced tea, I think I'll look for the red clover capsules like Annie mentioned.

-- Anonymous, October 29, 2002

Annie, about you lactose intolerance: have you tried taking lactase tablets when eating dairy? Works for most folks, from what I hear. Also, before you stopped dairy, did you every try reseeding your stomach with hydrochloric acid? Most people over 40 especially are way low in hydrchloric acid, and it causes all kinds of problems connected with digestion. "Acid Reflux" for one; and all sorts of things that are the result of poor metabolism of foods. The body cannot of course utilize nutrients in foods if the stomach and intestines are not working properly.

What about acidolphilus? Could you be low in that? Have you taken any long or frequent courses of antibiotics? Have you tried digestive enzymes? When all these things are in balance, many people are once again able to enjoy the benefits of dairy products. I just wish we could get more raw ones. And unhomogenized milk. Idiotic government.

Like I said earlier, there's nothin wrong with occassional soy use; after all, occasional anything doesn't hurt. well except for poke in the eye. The important thing to spread the word about the truth of soy, because the mega companies are quite successfully convincing the public that soybeans are good food, and that they are good replacements for animal products. They would like nothin better then that we all become vegetarians; soy is so much easier and more profitable to produce . Talk about an environmental nightmare!!

It's my understanding that phytates are only found in seeds, beans being a seed. Spinach does contain oxalates though, which also inhibit calcium absorption. Vegetarians who talk about all the calcium in spinach fail to mention that 95% of it is unabsorbable because of the oxalates!

I don't use any progesterone cream, but Bren has used it; cant remember the brand. She didnt find it as helpful for her as the herbs.

-- Anonymous, October 30, 2002

Okay, E.M. I gotta find out about this hydrochloric idea!! I always thought that it was poisonous and it could even eat away at metals. How can we possibly put it in our stomachs?? I looked it up on Google, but there are over 90,000 sites about it. I like to read, but even my patience wears thin after about 50,000 sites!!! Besides, why should I bother with Google when I have Earthmama right here :-)!! Please tell me more about hydrochloric acid. It sure would be nice to give up my twice a day Pepcid and 2 a.m. baking soda "cocktails"!!! Thanx!!

-- Anonymous, October 30, 2002

I gave up the Pepcid, etc., Marcia, when I gave up grains. For whatever that is worth!

-- Anonymous, October 30, 2002

Hmmm...grains?! I know that some types of cold cereal will bother my stomach, but I have no problem with hot cereals. Maybe I should do a "process of elimination" test. For me the problem seems to be mostly high acid foods...spaghetti, lasagna, chili etc. And sometimes beef or pork. But if I drink some water every couple of bites or so it helps alot. I'm planning on making stuffed manicotti for dinner tonight...light on the tomato sauce though :-)!!

-- Anonymous, October 31, 2002

Hydrochloric acid is just stomach acid, what your stomach produces naturally to break down food. It's another one of those things that decreases in volume as we age, and because of what we do to our bodies, so it needs reseeding every once in awhile. We cannot process food properly without enough hydrochloric acid in our stomachs to get the process started, which is very very important not only to enable the intestines to later extract the nutrients from our food, but for the whole elimination process to work properly. If ones system isnt utilizing food the way it was designed, food allergies and sensitivities are often the result also, many of which become life- long problems.

I am convinced that "acid reflux" is another phoney disease made up by the pharmaceutical companies.

What ya do is buy some "Betaine Hydrochloride". You can also use 1 tsp vinegar (apple cider of course)in place of this product I am told, although I have never tried it.

When you eat, you take one capsule WITH EACH MEAL the first day. If your tummy feels warm after taking it, you have enough Hydrochloride in there, which is unlikely at our age, but it could happen.

If your tummy does not feel any different as you eat your meal, the next day increase the dosage to two caps with each meal, same deal.

Do the same every day, increasing by one cap with each meal, up to 10 capsules a meal. ( I had to take 10 the first time I did this about 3 years ago, but only for about 4 days, after which I got the warm tummy signal)

If your tummy feels uncomfortable, (ususally it just gets warm, so you know you have reached your threshold) take a tsp of baking soda in water to neutralize it if you want.

You just use your warm tummy feeling as your guide to know how much it needs; you will reach a peak number of caps, then decrease gradually like you increased gradually until eventually you are taking very little of none.

DON'T DO THIS IF YOU HAVE AN ULCER.

I hope this is clear; it was kind of awkward for me to write!

-- Anonymous, October 31, 2002