I didn't want to blow up that thread, like the Gospel thread.

“Where I place the scripture as my final authority, you place the teachings of man...”

You keep saying this, Tim, but in reality the Scripture is BY the teachings of man. Yes, they were men inspired by God, but they were men! Same too with the Church. The teachings are BY men, but they are inspired men. Do you have a hard time believing that God could inspire someone today?

“"The Holy Bible is only as holy as its interpreters; and of the lot only Christ's Church has apostolic authority to support her interpretation." - so you believe that the Catholic Church (individual men) are as holy as God? If yes, then you make them equal with God - if no, then you make their interpretations vain, and not holy enough to be accurate.” You keep ignoring the fact that the Catholic Church is NOT the individual men! The Catholic Church is the Living Body of Christ which is expressed through the FAITH, not men! The men make up the Body, but they do not control the Body. Just as those men who wrote and compiled the Bible were not acting on their own, but under the influence of the Holy Spirit; so too is the Catholic faith taught by men who are not acting on their own, but by the Power of the Spirit! “Tell me, what do these verses mean? 1ti 4:1-3 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits” Does the Catholic Church give heed to seducing spirits? “…, and doctrines of devils;”

The Catholic Church speaks against the doctrines of devils! If a kingdom is divided against itself it will surely fall!

“ Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”

The Catholic Church doesn’t “forbid” anyone to marry! If you would like to become a priest, or feel called to the priesthood, then it is required (in the Roman Rite) that you do not marry! So, the choice is the persons. They are not forbidden to Marry! And abstaining from meat is simply fasting! It is also not “commanded” of us, but requested of us. Remember when the Pharisees asked Jesus why his disciples weren’t fasting? What did Jesus say? He said, how can they fast when they are with the BrideGroom? When the Bridegroom leaves then they will fast. Jesus left the Apostles and sent the Advocate and so we still can fast, because the Bridegroom is not with us yet! Do you not fast!?

Tim, do you (or your pastor) read the Scripture for its wonderful fruit? Or do you simply read it in order to find sentences (out of context) that seemingly run contrary to the Catholic Faith? “Mt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. “

Wonderful, this was the reading yesterday!! Yes, even the Catholic Church reads this. Once again, Tim, this is out of context! We see Jesus himself telling us that Abraham WAS our FATHER! Paul on several occasions in his letters tells the Church that he is their spiritual FATHER. So it is obvious that this is NOT what Jesus meant. He was talking to those Pharisees who wanted to be called father or teacher or master, yet those Pharisees didn’t act like fathers or teachers or masters! We all have ONE Father – because God gave life to us all. But this doesn’t mean that we don’t call those who have likewise given us life (you dad, or the priest who gives spiritual life) father. Jesus wanted them to acknowledge that there is ONE who Fathers us ALL, but that isn’t to say that there are others who father us individually. Jesus was calling the hypocritical Pharisees on their sin of pride!

Tim, do you really not think that St. Thomas Aquinas, or St. Augustine didn’t catch these things? Luther Himself was a “father”!

“"Because I have the Magisterium of Christ's Church as the authority for my interpretation, it isn't a free-lance job like yours." - Again, you choose to trust in man, and not in the Spirit to guide you into all truth.”

Over and over again, Tim, you ignore what we are saying! The Magesterium, thought written and promulgated by man, like the Bible, is INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit! Can you understand that!? This is a reoccurring point that you seem to intentionally sidestep in order to “get us” on believing in man. We believe in the Holy Spirit working through man. You too Tim choose to trust man, because man wrote the Bible! But yes, the men who wrote the Bible were inspired by God. So too are those who teach Gods word in the Catholic Church! “Correction: ''The Church of Jesus Christ and His apostles says it. I believe it, that settles it.'' - so now you become the final authority. CORRECTION: The Truth is the Truth regardless who believes it or doesn't believe it.”

That’s right! The Truth is the Truth! There is only ONE truth, and Tim you are following one amongst thousands of truths that fail to have a foundation or backing aside from a self proclaimed minister!

“The Words of God is true (the paper and ink as you call it - I do not worship the paper and ink, but I believe what is written is exactly what God wanted written) - the intrepretation is what the Holy Spirit gives us when we receive the understanding from him that the scriptures holds more meaning that the human mind will ever comprehend. We could never figure it all out - it is from the mind of God. That is why the Spirit has to lead us.”

But Tim, answer this question which you continue to fail to do! If all the Protestant sects believe that they have the “correct” interpretation, because they think that they understand the Scripture, then how is it that they all have DIFFERENT interpretations? Obviously the Spirit of Truth is not divided! Nor would the Spirit of Truth leave it up to every man to come up with their own interpretation! As I mentioned, your pastor cannot prove his authority without self proclaiming it from God! Why is it do you believe in his interpretation. What makes him inspired and not the other Pastor from the Baptist Church? In fact, I know three “Evangelical” protestants, and they ALL are taught different things from each of their different pastors!? Who’s right, Tim? Can any of them prove their apostolic succession? NOT A SINGLE ONE! They all read the Bible and come up with their own ideas about what it means, and very many times it is just coincidentally anti-Catholic, not because it really is, but because the “pastor” has an agenda to push! Is that INSPIRATION?

“the only books "removed" were books that were never considered scripture anyway, and were put in the middle of the old and new testament. Why not add the Dead Sea Scrolls?”

Tim, show me how these seven (7) books were never considered Scripture! I can show you how they actually WERE! IN the 4th century the Holy Bible was Compiled and up to the present day, ONLY the Catholic Church has all those Scriptures! Did you even read those links that I sent?

““Is the Catholic Bible inerrant?” Yes" - then that goes back to Eugene's point to me - "The Holy Bible is only as holy as its interpreters;" - so the Catholic's are inerrant? Perfect? Which ones, all of them, just the pope? What language is your bible in? Hebrew, Greek?”

No, Tim, you keep misunderstanding! The Catholic Bible is inerrant because it contains all the original 73 books, and they are all translated to reflect what REALLY was written in the ancient languages. Many Protestant Bibles have removed seven of these Books and also have taken out parts of other books and in one instance added a word “only” to change the meaning of the sentence!

“"Since we can gather from Scripture and Church tradition that Mary was sinless, we know that her Body was Pure and therefore fit to go into heaven. Joseph, however, although he was holy, was not without sin." - From scripture - NO, from the Church tradition taught by men probably. “

Is the Birth of Jesus, God made Man, not Scriptural enough for you. The Perfect and ever living God came forth from an untainted womb. And the enmity between Mary (the woman) and her offspring (Jesus) and the serpent cannot go unnoticed! If there is perfect enmity between Jesus and the serpent (one being complete sin, the other complete sinless), and the writer of Genesis included Mary in this perfect enmity (the woman AND her offspring), then Mary is also in perfect enmity with the serpent! How can Mary take part in defeating the serpent, if she has cooperated with him through sin? Perfect enmity is perfect opposition, and if the serpent is the father of lies and sin, then Mary is sinless!

“Men are not equal to scripture!”

What! But was it not inspired MEN who wrote the Scripture? Why do you lack trust in the Holy Power of God to inspire men now, when he did in order to write the Scripture. Is God not Powerful enough NOW to inspire men to teach. Mary’s sinlessness is no mystory compared to the The Church traditions taught by men that are not contained in the scripture is worse than Eugene calling me a liar by me searching the scripture and allowing the Spirit of Truth to show me the Truth in scripture.

“What are counsels? Are they made up of men? Then why is it any different that men believing that the KJV is inerrant?”

Tim, there was a list of counsels that I posted as a link. Yes, they were made up of men, inspired men; the same men whose Bible the Protestants later disfigured. It is different because the Protestant KJV was changed from the original form!

“You attack me, but have done the same thing that you claim makes me in error. Can't you see that?”

Tim, I’m trying not to come off like I’m attacking you. You don’t seem to see that your copy of the Bible is different from ours. The Catholic Bible is the same translation as the original, with all the 73 Sacred Books! The Protestant Bible is errant because it lacks these 73 books plus some of the remaining books are tampered with.

“"Let’s clear this up. The Catholic Church has never promoted killing anyone." - This is a lie, history proves it, and not just Anti-Catholic history...Study who brought the men before the Kings...Remember who brought Jesus before Pilot?”

Tim, again you are considering the efforts of individual men inside the Church to reflect what the Church supports or teaches. The Catholic Church has never taught supported or condoned anything but the Complete Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those that have abused their positions cannot be considered Catholics or even a part of the Catholic Church. Those who brought Jesus before Pilot were religious leaders. But those religious leaders were not following their religion! Numerous times Jesus called them hypocrites because they proclaimed one thing, but didn’t follow their own teachings!

"Any one who kills in the name of Catholicism is a heretic!" - be careful claiming this statement till you know....“

I KNOW!! The Catholic Faith proclaims Life, the Gospel of Life. If anyone teaches against the faith, in the name of the faith, has disowned their faith!

“"so the teachings of all the Popes are from God himself," - it is never mentioned in the Bible once, that their will be one man over the entire church called a pope or anything - only Christ.”

Hmmm? Is Trinity ever mentioned in Scripture, Tim? The leadership of Peter was apparent through Scripture. The hierarchy of the Church became known through the Acts of the Apostles, through the Letters of Paul, and also have been passed down from the Traditions of the Church since the beginning! Christ IS the head of our Church! I’ve already explained this! But Christ has left us with Apostolic authority to guard against what has happened in the Protestant sects (30,000+ divisions, Tim).

“"But your pastor can only claim this on his OWN authority! He has no other successor to back up his teachings." - we have Christ and the Spirit of Truth...”

Prove it, Tim. What makes your pastor different from the 30,000 others. Are they right, or is your pastor? Where’s the proof, besides for your pastors own word? We have Christ and the Spirit of Truth, and we have the line of Apostles from John Paul II all the way to Peter, to prove that our teachings came from Christ Himself, and not just an interpretation of his written Word.

"Would you believe me if I told you that last night God told me to tell you that you should become a Catholic? No! Yet you believe that your pastor was selected by God, based on your pastors word, to teach you." - we are to try the spirits, to make sure they are of God - to put 100% faith in man, as you do in the Catholic Church, leaves God out of the picture. Why does he need to speak to you? He'll just tell the pope to tell you? No, if you are open to God, he will show YOU his will for your life.

Will he show us his will for our life just like he’s shown all 30,000 pastors his will? Tim, Jesus would not leave us without an authority to help us “test the spirits”. Were we left to “test the spirits” on our own, we would be divided like the 30,000 sects that all claim to be lead by the spirit!

Tim, please WE DO NOT PUT OUR FAITH IN MAN!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I scream that loud enough!? God gave us his Church to guide us, and we put our faith IN HIM to lead those who he has chosen to be our guides. Were the Corinthians placing their faith in Paul, or God? God!!! But it was Paul who spoke on behalf of God! Our Pope speaks on behalf of God! Our Church speaks on behalf of God.

We can be open to God. But God will not contradict himself, Tim. He said the Spirit would be with His Church. Just like you cannot be open to God past the Scriptures, we cannot be open to God past the Scriptures and the Church. If we open ourselves up like you suggest we are opening ourselves up to be divided!

“"The Pope was selected by the Apostles of Christ, who selected them and appointed them." - not found in scripture.”

It IS found in Scripture. I gave you all the passages that show how Peter speaks for the other apostles! Jesus selected 12 Apostles, is that not Scriptural!? After the 12 had died, do you think that was it Tim? Are we all apostles? NO! We are all disciples. But only 12 were Chosen as Apostles, and when Christ died, those 12 Chose other Apostles, but not all were apostles Tim.

“Jesus indeed handpicked the 12, because they were given to him by God, reread it and see - and the only reason he picked Judas was so that the scriptures would be fulfilled. You say man picks priests and popes, this doesn't match up with Jesus picking. Jesus knows our heart, man doesn't.”

Scripturally Christ chose 12 Apostles. Then when Christ died, rose, and ascended into Heaven, those 11 remaining Apostles chose other Apostles. So it is Scriptural that, after Christ had ascended, it was MEN (the original Apostles) who chose the other Apostles. And so we know that it is Scriptural that Apostles aren’t merely self proclaimed (or as you call it, “called by God” alone). God Calls them, yes, but it is the Apostles that confirmed them. Did any of the Apostles self proclaim themselves apostles? NO. Even Paul, after Christ talked to him, went to the other Apostles to be confirmed as an Apostle!

Now, Can your pastor, without self proclamation, prove that he was called by God? Can he show you the Apostles of Christ that confirmed his calling? NO! But Catholic’s can!

“- this is what you fail to understand. God has given us his Word (the scripture) and the Spirit of Truth to help us discern the difference between a real man of God and a fake. We make the wrong discission when we don't pray, read, and seek God with our whole heart, mind, and soul.”

Tim, is it escaping you that there are currently 30,000 different interpretations of the Same Word!? Are not all 30,000+ pastors praying, reading and seeking God? There is more than ample proof that Christ did NOT leave us with simply the written Word. Do you think Christ wanted us to be divided 30,000 different ways? Christ left us His Word, but He also left us His Church (the Catholic Church) to preserve his Word from divisions. When Luther left the Church he opened the gates of hell against the Protestants. They no longer have the protection against the gates of hell that Catholics have, and it is manifest through the great multitude of interpretations each Protestant has.

“Apostles had to be hand picked of God, they had to physically walk with Christ, and be taught of him for at least 3 years. Check out the Book! It's all in there. I doubt that any of the priests, bishops, or popes have seen Christ face to face - or been literally taught by him for 3 years...”

Yikes! So there were no other Apostles then the 11, which were the remaining hand picked of the Apostels? Explain this: Acts 1: “24 And they (48) prayed and said, "You, Lord, (49) who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen 25 to occupy (50) this ministry and (51) APOSTLEship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." 26 And they (52) drew lots for them, and the lot fell to (53) Matthias; and he was added to (54) the eleven apostles.”

Was Matthias hand picked by Jesus? Paul never walked with Jesus, nor was he trained by him for 3 years! In fact, Paul walked AGAINST Jesus and His Church, until he was converted. Then he went to the original Apostles to be confirmed by them!

"body of Christ" - Again, the Body of Christ is only Believers, therefore if can not mean the physcially, earthly Catholic Church. It is spiritual!

Again, Catholics who are not Believers are not really Catholic! The Body of Christ IS those Believers. And the fullness of their belief is contained within the teachings of Christ, preserved in the Catholic Church!.

“The problem is where we put the pope between the man and Christ. You do that by saying God doesn't show individuals (man) the scriptures.”

God DOES show individuals (man) the Scriptures, but it will never be contrary to the one TRUE interpretation of the Scripture, which is guarded and preserved by the Catholic Church! Because there is no definitive interpretation among Protestants, there will never be unity, nor will you ever know for sure that your interpretation is correct! Prove, for instance, that your interpretation is correct, and that of the other Protestants is not! Tim, They are all different!

The Pope isn’t between man and Christ. The Pope is the authority upon whose trust Christ rests (like on Paul and Peter, and the others) to preserve and teach the correct interpretation of Scripture to us. You would think then that the Eunuch in the Acts of the Apostles would have been able to understand the Scripture on his own, right? But he couldn’t. Had he tried he would have had the WRONG interpretation. Even thought the words of the Scripture were the same to him and Philip, only Philip could teach it, because Philip was sent by the Apostles of Christ to teach! And don’t say it was because the Eunuch wasn’t baptized, please. Because by saying this, you are saying that anyone who is Baptized is fit to interpret Scripture, which is false!]

“"It is clear that Peter is the head of the Church. He speaks for the Apostles!" - Christ also looks at Peter and says, Get thee behind me satan - so does that me he is also the anti-christ?”

This just proves my point further. Peter is a sinful man! We know this from more than one passage! He denied Christ 3 times. Yet, he speaks for the Apostles. It shows how the Holy Spirit works through sinful man, yet preserves His Holy Word. The fact that Peter is later admonished by one of his fellow Apostles also proves Christs work in the Church. And had there been no authority to correct him, or back him up, (like the Protestants, who have no backing authority) Peter might have gotten away with saying something wrong. Who would be there to correct your pastor from saying something wrong?

“So, God built the Church on a man, that the gates of hell shall not prevail against man????

Show me, Tim, where I said that the gates of hell shall not prevail against man! I said the gates of hell shall not prevail against Christ’s Church.

“No, the gates of hell shall not prevail against Christ, the Son of the living God.”

It’ is obvious that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Christ, who created the gates of hell for Lucifer and the other creatures. God made them, how would they prevail against him? But, Christ didn’t say that the gates of hell would not prevail against ME! He said the gates of hell will not prevail against IT (the Church)! Christ will protect His Church, which is His Mystical Body established on earth; the Catholic Church!

"Would you say these things in front of Christ? Are you so sure that she was a sinner, that you would risk offending God Almighty?" - Yes! Because God can not lie, and he said: Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;…”

Tim, God said this through Paul and to the Romans! Several times the word ALL doesn’t mean EVERONE that EVER existed. I have already posted a link on this, and it appears that you’ve ignored it.

“…Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

Yes, and Mary is a man and she cometh unto the Father, through her Son on our behalf! Just like I would come to Jesus on your behalf! Tim, you just aren’t getting it. We do NOT pray TO Mary. We ask Mary to pray for us! When we pray to Mary, the word is used as its definition suggests – to ask! So if you ask me to Pray for you, really you are praying to me to pray for you. In the same way we pray to Mary to Pray for us. Mary is HUMAN and therefore all her prayers FOR us go to her Son!

“So is God a liar? You claim yes, if Mary wasn't a sinner. This verse leaves no "special" person.”

Like I said, Tim, you must have skipped the link which explains that on several occasions in Scripture the word ALL is not “All inclusive”.

I believe Mary was a rigtheous woman and God allowed her to have his Son here on Earth, but she was never sinnless...Why must she be sinless?”

Because Mary held the Son of God in her womb, and nurtured him through her own flesh and blood. Would not God, who is all sinless, be rejected by a sinful body! The woman and her son would have enmity between them and the serpent! Mary is included in the same sentence with her Son Jesus. Therefore, if it is the same perfect enmity that Christ has with the serpent, then Mary has the same perfect enmity between her and the serpent. In order to have perfect enmity with pure sin, one would have to be pure sinless!

Besides for this, the same Church Fathers that you know and love, St. Thomas Aquinas, and even Luther, believed that Mary was sinless. The greater miracle is how you can believe that for 1500 years everyone was wrong about her.

“None of the other people that found grace in the eyes of the Lord were sinnless. David (a man after God's on heart) was an adulterous and murder. A sinnless Mary, would not have needed a Saviour: Mr 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. “

Again, for the zillionth time, Mary DID need a Savior. For if Jesus had not died, neither would he have been born. And the fact that Jesus needed to be born in order to die, puts Mary in a position where the Birth and Death of her Son Saved her at her conception! If you can understand that I’ve been saved from the sin of Murder – even if I haven’t Murdered anyone, then likewise Mary was SAVED from sin, even though she had never sinned!

“As concerning the Catholic bibles - "intent" is not the same as inerrant. If their is 1 difference in the bibles that the Catholics use, then either both contain errors, or one contain errors. They are not both inerrant. Impossible. To be inerrant it has to be - exactly - the way God wants it.”

And the way God wanted it is the way it was compiled in the 4th century! Your copy is different, Tim. You are missing 7 books of holy Scripture that were placed there in the 4th century and confirmed by the Church for 1000 years before they were taken out by the “reformers”.

“I appreciate your time and effort in giving me the understanding into the Catholic doctrine, but I still fail to see where it lines up with the scripture as you claim...Where I give scripture, you give teachings...”

Tim, I’ve given you several Scriptures! I’ve only tried to use Scripture! What I want you to see is that the Teachings of the Church do align with Scripture. How could they not, Tim. Logically, if the Church had been writing the Scripture BY HAND for several hundreds of years, how is it that you think the Catholic Church would be able to get away with teaching “errors” for so long? It is just plain logically impossible! For at least 1000 years the Church has been teaching the Virginity and Sinlessness of Mary, at the very same time they were translating the Scripture BY HAND! You cannot say anything against St. Thomas Aquinas. He knew the Scriptures, but he still believed in Mary’s sinlessness. He still believed in the Body and Blood of Christ. What have you to say about this, Tim?

“You do seem to be very honest and do study your belief, it bothers me more to see the people (both Catholic and Protestant) that say they are this or that, but have no idea of what to believe...”

This is one thing I can agree with Tim. It frustrates both our beliefs when individuals give misrepresentations of the Faith.

Thank you for your time.

In Christ.

P.S. Tim, I would encourage you to also do some internet searchs on the Catholic beliefs. Of course I would suggest going to the Catholic sites, as many non-Catholic sites try to promote their causes by putting down false stuff about the Church. Good Luck!

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), November 04, 2002

Answers

Bump

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), November 04, 2002.

Dear Jake:
I have my doubts Tim will have the patience to read your lengthy post. I hope he does, but he isn't willing to listen to Catholics. That has been shown quite clearly in his linear pursuit of sola scriptural arguments.

I have isolated one of your strong points. I'm pasting it here for his benefit; if only he'd take the trouble and answer it honestly: ''Tim, do you (or your pastor) read the Scripture for its wonderful fruit? Or do you simply read it in order to find sentences (out of context) that seemingly run contrary to the Catholic Faith? 'Mt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.' ''

He does indeed, Jake-- search for passages into which he hopes to insinuate a Catholic denial of truth. It's his way of undermining our faith. The Bible is his church. He has no use for a Church so he has to try to discredit the Church of the apostles.

It makes the Word of God merely Tim's Ace in the hole; something useful for his agenda. This isn't respect for the Word of God.

''Call no man father.'' He believes he's ''nailing'' the Catholic faith. We call our pastor ''father''; that makes us anti-biblical!!! If Tim had true love for the Bible's sacred words, he wouldn't be a pharisee about them.

Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites. They accused Jesus of sin because He cured a man on the sabbath. Tim accuses us of sin because we dare call a priest our father.

Yet, Saint Paul was a father to his converts. They loved him as a spiritual father. He also made reference to Timothy as his own son. There are rightfully spiritual relationships in Christ's Church. He is grasping at straws, Jake.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 04, 2002.

Hey Tim, Jake and Eugene:

I can't possibly add anything to the above -- as it is quite thorough!

But just one thing on Mary. How can it be that a mere human creature, such as Mary, could contain God in her womb? How could that happen unless her womb was HOLY! She could not POSSIBLY have contained the creator of the universe in her own body unless she were COMPLETELY AND ENTIRELY SANCTIFIED! THAT is the issue! A PHYSICAL impossibility is what Protestants believe, which deflates Christ's divinity! You see, that's why Mary is so important -- JESUS!

But anyway, hope things cool down a bit.

Love,

Gail

-- gail (rothfarms@socket.net), November 04, 2002.

It's not straight forward bio Gail. It's a mystery indeed that even God could become man, that's what really boggles the mind 4 me.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), November 04, 2002.

It might help to read the elaborate and painstaking instructions in the O.T. for building the Ark of the Covenant, which was to "contain" God; and then ask, would God be any LESS exacting in his requirements for the human woman who would "contain" Him for nine months?

-- Christine L. (chris_tinelehman@hotmail.com), November 04, 2002.

Awesome insite Christine!

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), November 04, 2002.

The purpose of the Ark was to hold the covenant = 10 commandments, not God. Exodus 25:21. See Isaiah's dream vision in Ch. 6 "In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw Yahweh sitting on a throne...and the hem of his robe filled the Temple." God Yahweh cannot be contained because he is full of light. Remember the burning bush which Moses saw? ch. 3 of Exodus. That is why the bush din't actually burn. It was God's light.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), November 04, 2002.

Hey everyone, and Elpidio:

The Ark of the Covenant also contained the manna (representative of Jesus); the Ark also contained the 10 commandments, as you stated, and Jesus is the fullfilment of those laws.

God was contained, Elpidio, in the womb of a woman! Remember, He is fully God and fully Man.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), November 04, 2002.

Many people are mentioned in the bible having been filled with the holy spirit, especially in Penecost. If it didn't kill them, then why should it be so dangerous for Mary to carry God in her womb ?

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), November 05, 2002.

Further to this, *if* Mary were able to be preserved by God to be sinless in the soul yet have a body of flesh, which precisely describes the Lord Jesus, why could He himself not be preserved in that very way without Mary having to be preserved ? Otherwise u have an chain of sinless parents which eventually reaches the stage which gives birth to the sinless Mary or back in the other direction lead all the way back to a sinless Adam ?

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), November 05, 2002.

Hi Oliver:

First, it is important to note that Mary was not "sinless" by her own effort, she was sanctified entirely through the Spirit by the grace of God. She had a mission, a role, that no other human being would have -- NO ONE!

While it is true that the aaints of old were, at times, empowered by the Holy Spirit, for specific purposes at specific times, still, no one was called to perform such a task -- delivering the Savior to the world! She could not fail. She must complete her mission. She was endowed with a "special" grace to complete that call, not by her merit, but by the merit of her Son on Calvary.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), November 05, 2002.

Just one more point of interest. With regard to entire sanctification, there are several Protestant denominations that believe that it is possible to be "entirely sanctified" in this life. The Church very much believes this as well. When a person has reached maturity, and has truly "died" to themselves, and is truly picking up their cross, and devoting every moment to the cause of Christ, they are "entirely sanctified" -- HOLY. We see the fruit of entire sanctification in the life of Mary from the first moment the Angel gave her the news!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), November 05, 2002.

Gail, Oliver, Elpidio, et al:
The life of the Blessed Virgin Mary is a singular exception, out of all the children of Adam. She is all human, not a god. Jesus her son is God, so He is not exceptional in the same way. He is true God, true Man. His humanity comes down from Adam to Mary, and unites in One Person, the Eternal Son as Christ.

All men are human by descent from Adam and Eve. Inasmuch as Adam committed the original sin of disobedience (Genesis), his descendence is tainted from that day on. It is enough to require a new birth, redemption which only God Himself had power to offer. He has accomplished it through His Son who became Man to give it to mankind.

Since sinful nature is our inheritance from Adam, Christ's humanity would be associated in that sin as soon as He assumed human nature. How?

Through the humanity of Mary. She is Christ's link to Adam. Original sin comes down from Adam to all his race. We're speaking of a spiritual flaw, a stain, not personal fault. But ORIGINAL SIN is real.

Christ saves us from the penalty for all sin, including Original sin. We know He is our Saviour. Mary was saved in anticipation of His humanity, where we were saved only after being born in sin.

She is already saved from Original sin in her conception-- at the first moment of existence in her mother's womb. But her Saviour is the same as ours, Jesus. He didn't wash away her sin, but rather kept away the stain from her conception onward. This is the dogma we know as the Immaculate Conception.

He is God, and it is a revealed truth God is unable even to LOOK at sin. No sin can be tolerated in His divine presence; which is precisely why unrepentant sinners go to eternal punishment. Sin is foreign to Him, infinitely negative.

Therefore, the immediate humanityJesus took upon His Person must be absolutely free from any trace of sin

even in conception from the womb. That immediate humanity is his own mother's. She must be free from all traces of sin; not by baptism, after her birth like you and me. That isn't enough for the Person of God.

To explain this to non-Catholics, it must be made clear Mary hasn't deserved all this for herself. But Jesus Christ DOES deserve it! It is for His worthiness and divine Person God the Father favored her.

Just as, the Ark of the Covenant in the OT was untouchable by sinful men because the Person of Yahweh was there, upon the Mercy Seat. The Ark was His bearer, as Mary was the God-bearer for her son. The Ark of the Covenant is seen by the Church as a figure of Mary.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 05, 2002.

In Response to Tim's last post on the other "Rosary Thread".

“If Romans is only written to the Romans, then the entire Bible is not written to any of us...”

Tim, you completely ignored my comment on the fact that throughout the Bible, there is numerous “all’s” that do NOT refer to EVERYONE! I think that I posted a link which actually goes into detail about this. Not everything in the Bible is directed AT us, but there are parts that we can read that give us a better understanding of our Faith, or perhaps the environment at that time. You said yourself in a previous post that regarding Solomon’s mother “As for this, this has no spiritual meaning for salvation at all???".

“That means we have no law, therefore no sin????” Does the fact that there are a few passages in the Bible that aren’t directed at us specifically mean that there is no law? “God [Christ] did not come through the seed of Adam - every man and woman ever born came through the seed of Adam, therefore are a sinner. Remember in Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”

Let me point out something, Tim, “And I will put ENMITY between THEE and the WOMAN, and between THY SEED and HER SEED…”

Therefore, since the same ENMITY is applied to HER SEED AND HER, then that same perfect opposition that is between Jesus and Satan is also between Mary and Satan! Perfect opposition to Satan is sinlessness! “What is the age of reason? I do not find an age in the bible.”

Very good, Tim! Because many Protestants use the “age of reason” statement to defend against infant Baptism. If you don’t know when the “age of reason” is, then is it really a viable argument to say that you have to be so old to get Baptized?

“If you wish to believe that there is an age of reason [I do not wish to argue either way], there is a difference of knowledge of sin and commiting sin. If you tell a baby [let's say 1 years old] not to throw their food, and they do so - that is a sin, because they are not obeying their parents.”

But are they really disobeying their parents if they cannot know what they are saying!? If I was your dad and I told you to do the dishes, but I told you in Spanish (assuming you don’t know Spanish), and you don’t do the dishes; are you sinning? There is a point in time, when one begins to understand the “Law” and that is when the “Law” takes affect. Before this there is no “actual sin” it is only “original sin”. Baptism takes away original sin – which is that initial disconnection from God’s Family. Baptism is a dying to our sin (original) and a rising to a new life with Christ! Since Mary would partake in that life of Christ, and Christ only instituted Baptism AFTER he was born, then Mary couldn’t have been Baptized before Jesus was Born. Yet at the same time Mary couldn’t be disconnected from God in any way because she would bare Him in her Womb. Mary also couldn’t cooperate with Satan in any way, because as you pointed out Tim, there was a perfect enmity between her Seed and HER! Therefore, by Gods sanctifying grace Mary was preserved from original sin and actual sin!

“So, you have failed to convince me that there are exceptions to the "blanket statement". You apparently have been taught that, the Spirit will not contradict the scripture. All have sinned, regardless of how the Lord works with babies and mentally handicapped people. And Mary was neither a baby or mentally handicapped.”

Well Mary was a baby at one point in time! (LOL). But, Tim, you don’t seem to see that this ALL didn’t apply to everyone that would ever exist. Please read the link that I had posted earlier which points out several “ALL’s” that didn’t really apply to everyone that ever existed. Here is the pertinent passage from that link, so that you don’t have to go searching: “We find examples of a non-literal intent elsewhere in Romans. In verse 1:29 the KJV reads, "being filled with all unrighteousness.....," whereas NRSV adopts the more particular, specific meaning, ".....every kind of wickedness...." As another example in the same book, Paul writes that "all Israel will be saved," (11:26), but we know that many will not be saved. And in 15:14, Paul describes members of the Roman church as "....filled with all knowledge...." (cf. 1 Cor 1:5 in KJV), which clearly cannot be taken literally. Examples could be multiplied indefinitely, and are as accessible as the nearest Strong's Concordance.”

“How have you tried the spirit, and made sure you are in the truth? I have to match up my beliefs and the teachings of others to the scripture. If they match the scripture they are correct, if they do not match the scripture they are wrong. I, myself, have had to change my views on some things I once believed, because as the Spirit showed me, they didn't line up with scripture teachings. I have never claimed to be perfect or have all of the answers. All of the answers are in scripture though.”

But, Tim, the Scripture can be interpreted many many different ways! Don’t you see the division this causes (30,000 splits!). So, how is it that you know that the Scripture is really saying what you think or believe it to say! You seem to think that it is SOOOO easy to just read the Bible, but if it were that easy wouldn’t we all get the same interpretation out of it. Tim, yours is just one of thousands of interpretations! How is it you can “test” your beliefs against Scripture without knowing the CORRECT interpretation of the Scripture? And, please don’t say, “the Spirit will guide me”. This is what they ALL say! The Spirit HAD to leave an authoritative voice to guard His ever True and never Changing WORD. That is why Jesus built his Church!

“The only way to cut yourself off from the Spirit's guidance is to ignore him and trust in man.”

And it was MAN who said that the Bible is the SOLE SOURCE of the Word of God (i.e. Sola Scriptura). The Spirit is with The Church, as Jesus (God) had promised! “2ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

I found 2ti 2:15 to read like this: “15 Be diligent to (37) present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling (38) the word of truth.”

Doesn’t say anything about reading Scripture! By the way, knowing Scripture doesn’t necessarily mean “reading” Scripture yourself. To really know Scripture, one must be TAUGHT Scripture. And one can only really know Scripture, when the Scripture being TAUGHT is the Correct interpretation of Scripture. And that ONE correct interpretation of Scripture is preserved in the Catholic Church.

“Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”

But this passage from Scripture is very simple and straight forward. Furthermore, the Scripture was always PREACHED by those appointed by God, not merely read by all. What about all the passages that need an explanation, and are not easily interpreted to mean what the writer had intended?

“Da 10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.”

This is my point! See that it was an angel of the Lord that “showed” him what was written! He didn’t have to read anything! Now, can you pastor tell you that an angel of the Lord told him what Scripture said, before he read it!? The Lord always gives testimony and proof to the Truth he shows us! You have no proof to back up your interpretation of Scripture. The proof that I have is the 2000 years of Church history which taught the same exact thing!

“Mt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?”

This also is proof in my direction, Tim. They did indeed read the Scriptures, but Jesus asks, “Did ye never read in the scriptures…” Jesus had to explain to them what it meant. They couldn’t come up with their own individual interpritation!

“Mt 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.”

Jesus didn’t simply mean know the text of the scriptures (accompanied by a false individual interpretation). Jesus says, ye do err, not KNOWING the scriptures… Jesus is saying to them that they don’t understand what the scripture means! How can they know what it means if they read it and interpret it themselves!? They need an authority who knows what it means to TEACH them the scriptures.

“Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.”

That is correct! Jesus taught them what the Scriptures meant so that they could teach others what it meant! Jesus didn’t teach them to write it down and pass out Bibles to everyone so that they could read and learn it on their own! The Church SUPERCEDED the Bible! “Lu 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?”

He had taught them the Scriptures and yet their hearts still didn’t get it. How much more would they have been confused if they had simply read it!?

“Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”

This is out of context, Tim. The entire passage reads: “39 "[2] (49) You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is (50) these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.”

Jesus is telling them DON’T just search the Scriptures for eternal life! The scriptures testify about Me! Come to me and have eternal life. Again, the Apostles were reading the Scripture, but didn’t understand! How much more must you be confused, reading the Bible on your own and trying to understand?

“scripture - 53 times in the KJV”

Can you do me a favor and look up how many times “preached” or “spoke” comes up? If the number of words indicates significance, than surly you would agree that Peter, whose name is used much more than the others, is the most important Apostle.

“You put 100% trust that the Spirit of God will give the Catholic church all of the answers, not none to you?”

Part of this statement is true. God gives US the answers THROUGH the Catholic Church.

“Who in the Catholic church gets the answers? 1 man, 2 men, how many?” You don’t seem to understand that the Catholic Church already had it’s answers from Jesus, who gave the answers to Peter and Paul and John. The answers are not “given” now! The Church (the Popes and Bishops) have the answers that the previous Popes and Bishops had. We don’t “get” the answers! We HAVE the answers, which have been preserved and passed down since Christ taught them!

“It is the scripture and the Holy Spirit which interprets itself.”

You got that right! And the fact that none of the Protestant sects have the SAME interpretation as the Spirit shows you that. Tim, can you be sure that the interpretation you have come up with is the same as that of the Spirit!? We can, because it is the same interpretation that Peter and Paul and James and John all had, which was given to them by the Holy Spirit!

“I believe this: 2ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.”

Great, so where are these “sound Words, which thou hast HEARD…”? In the Catholic Church (that includes the Bible, the Magisterium, and Sacred Tradition).

“2ti 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.”

Was it the Bible? NO! That good thing committed to the Apostles has been preserved in the Catholic Church. “1jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.”

Great! So, what does this have to do with what we are talking about? The Catholic Church keeps the Commandments.

“This is a lie, their have been Protestants before your so called 1400. Have you ever heard of Anabaptist?”

Here is some info on Anabaptist.

It is correct that there have been Splits away from the Catholic Church, however, NONE have been as far and as permanent as during the reformation. Those preaching heresies have always been split from the Church. Tim, Eugene’s point is that the branch of Protestantism that you choose to follow cannot be traced back beyond the 1500’s. Your “faith” is based on a move made by a MAN (Luther or Calvin…). The Catholic Faith is based on a move made by Jesus, the Son of the Living God. “Incorrect, I reject the teachings of the Catholic Church, because they do not following the scripture. Anyone's 'knowledge' of the scripture.”

You nor any Protestant of splinter group have not proven or given ONE single point that we (Catholics) have not defended as Scriptural! The fact that it may have not been in Scripture does not mean that it is contrary to Scripture. Every Catholic Doctrine IS perfectly aligned with Scripture even when it is not in Scripture! And you have not given any evidence that it is not! “The remarks I made were to show that, though you call me an idolator and curse me because I use only scripture, your beliefs you hold so dear are not contained anywhere in scripture.” The beliefs (as in all beliefs we hold) are not in Scripture!? You’re wrong on this point. And the fact that SOME of our beliefs are NOT in Scripture can neither be proven to go against Scripture.

“It is to show you that I try to judge things by scripture, and you choose the teachings of the Catholic church, regardless of the what the scripture teaches.”

Not regardless of what the Scripture teaches, but in collaboration with what the Scripture teaches! Tim, please, for the sake of my blood pressure, try to understand: The Catholic Church Teaches what the Scriptures confirm! The Catholic Church and the Scripture are inseparable. You will not find ONE Scripture in Bible that is not taught in the Church. The teachings that are not in Scripture are even confirmed in Scripture as being coincident and NOT contrary to them. You keep playing us as if “we trust in man” and we do not even look at Scripture. This is false Tim. All of us on this Catholic Forum, the Pope, the Bishops, all the Priests, ALL had to STUDY scripture! They all hold deep REGARD for the Scriptures, which is why they are in the Catholic Church. If Catholics didn’t have regard for the Scriptures why would we have done you the favor of HAND WRITING them for centures!

“As for insecurity, I have none. I am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ because of the grace of God and I KNOW 100% I am bound for heaven.”

It may just be your ignorance of the Catholic Church’s saving power, given by Christ not MAN, that grants you this salvation 1jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

What about: John Ch6. “Unless you eat my Body and Drink my Blood you have NO LIFE in you”. “Do you know 100% that if you were to die today that you will go directly to Heaven?”

We know for certain that we won’t go DIRECTLY to heaven. Because we have not Matt: “paid the last debt”, nor are our Rev. “sheets white”. We must first be made pure by the saving Fire of God, like the angels, in Purgatory in order to enter the “Wedding feast” and behold the Lord God in all his Glory! For, “nothing pure enters heaven”. Do you think that you are pure, Tim? Do we all just become pure at the instance of our death. Christ died for us and has taken away our sins, but where does it say this becomes effective at the instant of our death? Show me scripturally that people enter heaven immediately after death. The truth is Christ Blood opened the Gates of Heaven that we MIGHT be saved. It is fact that Christ’s death has taken away our sin, but if it were true that Christ’s death takes away our sins (effective as we speak) without us doing a thing, then why is it that I keep on sinning? I am not pure now, nor will I be when I die. We all make attempts here on earth to be pure! We fast, or offer up our suffering in atonement for sins. But I will not be pure until the sanctify Grace of God has made my sheets white, and this happens in purgatory.

“2co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”

Doesn’t say immediately after death! Their presence with the Lord will be only when they are Pure enough to enter into the Lord sight!

“I pray you do. I really do. I'm not saying you don't know, I just hope you do. I wish everybody would get saved and know 100% they were going to Heaven.”

We know we are going to heaven! But NOT ALL are saved, Tim.

“Where does Christ every tell us to put our faith in the Church? We are to put our faith in Christ.”

We do put our faith in Christ, because Christ said the gates of Hell will NOT prevail against his Church. Therefore, it is we who have faith in Christ.

“Okay, Jesus Christ nor his apostles were a member of the or a Catholic Church ever!”

You are Peter and upon this Rock I will build my CHURCH. Which Church is Jesus Talking about Tim? He is talking about the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC Church – The Catholic Church.

“The inerrancy of the Bible is through the perfect will of God to give his children the pure Word of God.”

The infallibility of the Pope (when he makes infallible statements) is through the perfect will of God to give his children the pure Word of God.

“The scriptures are a work of the Holy Spirit which is given to the church of Christ, which is made of spiritual believers and not earthly buildings.”

Neither is the Catholic Church made of earthly buildings. If there were no buildings on earth or in heaven, there would still remain the Catholic Church! And those spiritual believers DO Make up the Catholic Church!

“Christ doesn't tell us to put faith in the church that he will make one man over.??? He tells us to trust in him, and that the Spirit of Truth will lead a saved man to the truth.”

Christ told us to trust in his Church because the gates of hell would NOT prevail against it. And, Tim, you’re missing the boat! The Spirit of Truth has already led us to the Truth. It is in the Catholic Church.

“The foundations we choose is this. I believe the scriptures are 100% true and hold all the Words of God to teach us and guide us to Him. You believe the scriptures are 100% ture, but that the God only shows the Church the truth, therefore if we can't find the Chruch's teachings anywhere in the bible, it just means it is an addition to the bible.”

Wrong, God already showed the Church the Truth. Jesus showed Peter and Paul and all the Apostles the Truth, and commissioned them to do as he did and PREACH the Truth to all nations. Tim, you don’t seem to get it: There are ADDITIONS to the BIBLE. What did Paul and John mean when they said they didn’t want to write something down. But there was still more to be said! It was just said face to face, and has been passed down!

“But what do you do when they contradict???? They do.”

They DON’T! You keep saying that they do, but you have not proven that they do. You have only brought Scripture out of context to show what you yourself perceive to be contrary. But we have refuted all you claims and shown you the true interpretation, which I hope you do not take for granted.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), November 06, 2002.