Protection for Catholics against false Domestic violence Claims

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THe domestic violemce and divorse industry has grown dramatically in the USA. It is estimated that 50 to 67 percent of marriages end in divorse and seperation.

Considering that the church advocates marriage and raising children in a loving and respectful family, our current laws and society do not.

SInce the passage of domestic violence laws, which were designed and passed for the protection of battered women, the industry has taken a life of its own at the expence of our families.

Most Catholics hear the term domestic violence and think of a women getting beaten to near death and potentially end up like the OJ Simpsom case.

Although , this can occur , it is NOT as common a practice that the womens shelter advocates and divorse industry profiteers claim.

Just the same way that all priests are NOT pedifiles and abuse children.

If there is an assault between two people there are laws against that, no matter what the relationship is. So why is the married couple any different and require different set laws?

It makes money for lawyers, womens shelter advocates, Phycholigist, forensic accounts, Judges, court personal , social service people etc.

Today in practice the domestic violence laws are being abused by lawyers and the womens shelter groups. For the shelter, that recieve billions in federal and state funding, propagation of domestic violence to be ever growing keeps their funding coming in. THere is no regulation or oversight in these groups to verify if their percieved problems are being addressed or if their percieved problems even exist. Accourding to the NJ State Police crime reports domestic violence is completely blown out of proportion.

THe only out cry for women's shelters is to further make people aware and ask for more money to expand their cause.

In NJ alone there were over 77,680 reports of domestic violence complains for temporary restraining orders in 1999 ( NJ State Police crime report). 53,640 of the reports were non violent. That's 69%! 22,190 reported minor incident or 28% and 1,850 reports of aggrivated serious or 2.3%. Theses are figures for the entire State of NJ

If in NJ over 53,000 complaints are filed for no violence in 2000, yet are viewed and propagated to be domestic violence. WOmen advocates continue to expand the definition to a point where anything at anytime cane be domestic violence. It has come down to a womens feeling on any given day. This is how the courts view domestic violence. THis means over 53,000 families were emotionally and financially dragged through courts, all marriages involved were destroyed. How does the church account for all the diplaced children of divorced families.

A TRO is issued by any court or the police for the asking. No cause is required, just an accusation. No altercation, no bruses, no police called to a scene. Absolutely nothing! Lawyers and womens shelters encourage this because it gets them a jump on divorse litigation. Women gets the house , all assets, the children and the man is instantly criminalized in courts that offer no protection to the accused. Literally a murderer has more legal rights then a loving , caring father just accused of domestic violence.

Domestic violence laws have become the silver bullet and weapon of choice for lawyers who are unethical and out to financially and emotionally rape the family. Children are just a second thought.

Police department are helpless and by law must report every arbitrary complaint. Police have no dicression in these matters and are quite frustrated. Most Police officers recognize the abuse of domestic violence laws, yet fear for their jobs and security if frivilous reporting is not carried through.

Once a tempory restraining order is issued for any reason, and they are given for the asking,, a divorse, by law must occur. It is never stated that way, however, the system is designed to protect itself and causes any dissagreement between couples to be viewed as violence.

Couples cannot speak to each other, womens advocates counsel to keep away from the church because the church believes in "joint counselling" THat is code word for allowing two people to communicate.

The entire family court system is designed to bring in any and all unsuspecting women into the folds of womens shelter groups, once inside women are told that marriage is oppression, part of a patriarchy and all consentual sex in marriage is rape. These shelters are run by extream radical feminists that are ani-marriage, hence anti church.

These are the views of radical feminists who controll the family court system under the guise of helping battered women. Marriages and families are broken up for no cause except to put money in lawyers pockets and propagate the domestic violence and divorce industry.

It is the number one priority for the church to guide its flock and protect it from policies that destroy families and childrens lives.

The church did a good job in recognizing the pitfalls of the church abuse policies. One primary concern was the reprecussions for a priest just falsely accused, and rightfully so. A simple accusation can destroy a priest and a community with no evidence or proof. Consequently, a priest has to minister in fear today and cannot even be in the same room alone with a child for fear of an accusation.

The church has made no arrangement to recognize the domestic violence industry/divorse industry and how it is a wolf in sheeps clothing that literally eats their flock.

What is the churches position on protecting its followers?

How legally is the church handling the laws that by design are destroying the family unit?

Our US Constution calls for seperation of church and state. That means no government involvement in the church. It does not preclude the church from influence on the government for the protection of its people. It appears to be turned around!

When will the church recognize that the democratic party in the USA does not reflect a moderate , middle of the road contingency, but is dominated by ultra left wing radicals who have penitrated our system of govenment and is attacking the church at its core? Please state your position?

The church must recognize that the ever increasing divorse rates are not because of couples who mutually lost faith in their marriage vows, but is being propagated by the laws currently in place. Once a women asks for a restraining order, even if out of emotion at the time , there is no turning back to save the marriage. How is the church going to adress this real issue?

The church teaches pre-marriage classes, yet gives no instruction on how the current laws weigh on marriages today. When will this be adressed?

Has the church recognized the advent of women Studies courses taught at our Universities and Collages? Today there are Degree programs in this area where the teachings are clearly Anti-Church, Anti-marriage, Anti-family and Anti-Men. These groups are State and federally funded with our tax dollars. Has the church ever read the text of what is taught to these women? The media sensationalizes the Koran beingdeadly after the 911 attack, yet these books clearly advocate hatred toward men and family. The entire course study is about becoming an advocate for domestic violence, Harrassment advocate, Elder abuse, Womens shelter operator, government fund raiser people, Runing non profit agencies, Marketing for domestic violence, Rape advocates, Abortion Clinic advocates. How is the church countering this course of study?

Catholics need guidence and the church must step up and get on the offensive or recognize the demise of its followers and the church.

THank You



-- Michael Argen (mg_comm@hotmail.com), November 25, 2002

Answers

You ask several times if "the Church" has done this or that. May I ask you in return if you've read the Catechism of the Catholic Church as it relates to this topic? The teaching authority of the Church has certainly spoken many times about marriage, divorce and spousal abuse.

-- Christine L. (chris_tine_leh_man@hotmail.com), November 25, 2002.

Hello Christine,

No, I have not read the Catechism regarding the Church response to marriage, divorse and spousal abuse. If you can direct me to it online, I would appreciate reading it.

Just a note:

My essay is certainly not advocating spose abuse, it is bringing to the for front the reality of how laws that were designed to shield are being used as a sward in divorse litigation and for the destruction of families. Every entity within the family court and domestic violence industry is there for profit and propagation of their cause. There is no monitoring or regulartory body overseeing actions and how tax funding is used. Broadstroking what our tax dollars are spent on does not cut it. Nothing in our legal system is there to preserve and promote the instution of marriage.

Have you read the divorse laws in your state?

Remember, our US Constution was written and based on Judeo-Christian faith and today has been twisted through every special interest group to reflect anti-church views.

Billions to promote, proform and legally advocate abortion with our tax dollars.

Billions to support radical feminist views of domestic violence.

THe Catholic church stands by and attempts to minister within their own, however , the rising divorse rates and family destruction do not reflect any success.

THe bases of our beliefs as Catholics are diminished through mans law and misguided education of our young adults. This in turn establishes our values which directly reflect our behavior.

It time the church takes a proactive stance outside the ministry to monitor and effect policy outside Cannon law.

>From: chris_tine_leh_man@hotmail.com

>To: mg_comm@hotmail.com >Subject: Response to Protection for Catholics against false Domestic violence Claims >Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:31:49 GMT > >Christine L. (chris_tine_leh_man@hotmail.com) responded to a message you left >in the Catholic bboard: > >Subject: Response to Protection for Catholics against false Domestic violence Claims > >You ask several times if "the Church" has done this or that. May I >ask you in return if you've read the Catechism of the Catholic Church >as it relates to this topic? The teaching authority of the Church >has certainly spoken many times about marriage, divorce and spousal >abuse. > >----------------- > >To post a response, come back to the bulletin board at > >http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Catholic > > > >------------- > >If you are no longer interested in this thread, simply go to the >following URL and you will no longer get these notifications: > >http://greenspun.com/bboard/shut-up.tcl?msg_id=00AFJk > >------------- > >Note: this message was sent by a robot.

-- M Argen (mg_comm@hotmail.com), November 25, 2002.


Here is a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church online - I have taken the liberty of linking to the section on the sacrament of Matrimony, to save you time in looking it up.

http: //www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/matri.html#MATRIMONY

-- Christine L. :-) (chris_tine_leh_man@hotmail.com), November 25, 2002.


Hello, Michael.

I agree with many of the points you made, though I also agree with Christine about how we have to be careful about what we attribute to (or fail to attribute to) the "Church."

I need to comment on one thing you mentioned: "Our U.S. Constution calls for separation of church and state. That means no government involvement in the church."
Actually the Constitution says nothing about "separation of church and state." That phrase came from a private letter of Jefferson to some Baptists, and it was not until the 1940s, I believe, that a statement in a Supreme Court ruling made the notion seem to be some kind of God-given law. What is in the Constitution is an anti-establishment clause. (The republic cannot establish a national church.) That is far different from a "total separation" clause, which does not exist. The state and church can and should co-operate in many ways, far more than they do now.

I want to give you a link to a search engine for the Catechism. You can plug in words or phrases for which it should search. However, you need to be careful with your spelling, or it will come up empty. I notice that you are misspelling some key words incorrectly (e.g., divorce [not divorse], canon [not cannon]), so please use a dictionary if you get no matches. Here is the link.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 27, 2002.


I have read the comments from everyone and it just brings up a question. Where is the information that backs up the clams that are made? There are comments about how the people that run the women shelters are inti-church, and anti marriage, but how did you come to that conclusion? Where did you get the information to back that up? That is a really bold statement to say with out some sort of links to back that up? Has everyone that you said based on just opinion? I can say that I am the greatest person in the world, but unless I have some supporting fact from several different sources it doesn’t really mean much. I am always willing to keep an open mind but I also like to have the fact to back it up. Topics like this cant be trusted by faith alone.

-- (he_borg@yahoo.com), February 21, 2003.


I am in the U.S Army, and I am taking a psyc class at the local college. I have to write a report about a web page and how logical the topic is and if there are fact that supor the topic, and I came across this site. I have seen allot of opinions stated here, and I am sure that there are fact that back up everything that you say, I am just saying that you should show where you are getting your info. Links or names of book, ect.. When you buy a car do you take the dealers word for it or do you have to have the facts to prove their point?

-- jason a derby (he_borg@yahoo.com), February 21, 2003.

Yes , Women shelters are in fact Anti-Church. How do we know this? Welll this is from first hand experience to being exposed to these groups ...both men and women have been handled to in effect KEEP AWAY from the church. WHy? Church counsel considers reconsiliation, communication between couples, carries a value for marriage and the children involved. Women Shelter groups operate primarily from state and federal grants (free tax money) to support their cause. THis funding is based around the Womens Against Domestic Violence Act. This Act was passed to protect battered women and help them in their time of need.

Here is an excersise for you.....

Go to your local womens shelter and ask the following?

WHere are the battered women that you are protecting?

What exactly is the free tax money spent on?

WHo sits on your board of directors and verify if they include local lawyers who make a living out of destroying marriages.

WHich board of Directors are related to the phycholigy industry and are the local family court favorate for custody evaluation?

Ask them to describe the method of counselling given to men that use their services?

Do they follow the Duluth model of counselling?

Do they believe in Joint counselling for couples?

Are their personal lisenced in the state to counsell? What lisence?

Have fun!

-- Michael Argen (mg_comm@hotmail.com), February 21, 2003.


Although I am not a catholic but I agree with what Michael is saying and I am saying it from a personal expereince.I got married to non US citizen girl.We were seeing each other while I was statined in american embassy in Russia.Well to make the long story short,We came here and started living together as husband and wife. Very soon I reallised that my wife is really not the person that she had portrayed herself to be and in fact she had used me as a ticket to America. When I told her that I am going to file for divorce,she threatened to teach me a lesson.I didnt really know what she meant but the next day I got a call from the police and I was handed over a restraining order.Since that day my life has been upside down and I am almost on the verge of losing my sanity.She is in the house that I am paying for and I am also paying her alimony for the time being .Mean while she is keeping her boy freind in the house.Seems like I dont have any rights.

-- Ian Flemming (gulberg_3@yahoo.com), March 10, 2003.

You seem to imply that only women who are bruised or have been beaten to the point they require hospitalization should be able to get a protective order. I have a protective order, yet I was never beaten like that, but was hit on several occassions by my husband. He always hit me on the side of the head-as if he knew my hair would cover any bruises or bumps. The worse part was the mental and emotional abuse. I am thankful that the court order dictates that he cannot speak to me. He would always blame me for anything that went wrong in his life or make me feel horrible for any mistakes I did. The first time, he hit me, he hit so hard I hit the tile wall in the bathroom and fell down. I had a horrbile bump for a week, but no one could see it. The worst part is that I believed it was my fault and I was the one to apoligize to HIM for his having hit me. Abusers know how to manipulate their victims, this is why I am thankful that he is not allowed to speak to me. Otherwise, he would have convinced me to apologize to him and to never see my family again. It is difficult because I have small children-they visit their father regularly. The worst part is that I feel the church is against me. I just get told I should reconcile. For an abuser to change takes time and effort. I am afraid to go back to him after only a couple of months. I feel so incredibly relieved now that my terrible marriage is over. I finally have some inner peace. My children are better off also because unfortunately they were witnesses to the abuse. had I stayed, they would have learned that this is a normal relationship-one where the woman gets no respect and the man is verbally and physically violent. No one could possibly convince me to get back together with my husband "for the sake of the children".

-- withheld for security reasons (livinginpeace2003@yahoo.com), March 23, 2003.

Dear Mis living in peace,

I have written many times about not advocating for people who are violent. Every situation is different. I am sorry to hear about your experience.

What is so alarming is the amount of false accusations that are propagated to be used as weapons in divorse litigation.

Too many women feel that any arguement that is not pleasent is domestic violence. It is not. If we are to take that stance them women clearly are more violent then men..It would be unfair to accuse women as domestic violence perpetrators and prosecute them becouse their husbands felt they were nagged, bothered, hempecked, yelled at, hurt feelings, etc. Marriage is mutual sacrifice , wanting nothing in return and being done for the love of another. To blame one sex (the male) legally for every mis-feelings is just not right. Will only destroy families needlessly and create dysfunctional families for our children.

This unfortunately is what 98 percent of the reports written reflect. Violence is wrong. but renameing violence to mean something it is not is just checking your common sence at the door.

Try to look at this situation through the eyes of the children who have to suffer for the rest of their lives from false accusations propagated by lawyers and women shelter advocates for the advancement of their cause and profit.

Our childrens well being is not for sale at any price or cause.

-- MGA (mg_comm@hotmail.com), September 30, 2003.



How did I ever miss this thread?

Sorry, but I equate that "go back and reconcile" nonsense to those religions that teach that women are doormats. I've never heard that being pushed on us at Mass, thank goodness.

It's called the CYCLE of abuse for a reason. Just like pedophiles, counseling does NOT fix the problem, and for the Church to even suggest it is somewhat misguided, just as they suggested that pedophiles could be cured with treatment. The first hit needs to be the LAST, folks. You stop it by leaving.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), September 30, 2003.


GT

I am not sure how you did miss this thread -in my recent history on this BB you take every opportunity to jump on these type threads and scream from the loudest mountain top the preprogrammed feminist rhetoric you claim your own...

Please break your cycle...

"The first hit needs to be the LAST, folks. You stop it by leaving."

The 'hitting' e.g. physical abuse is the extreme -- all agree on treatment of the extreme -- the discussions you pontifically parrot through not bothering to digest are not discussions of the extremes but discussions focused on the other things 'called' abuse...

-'abuse' is a relative term and as such in a morally relative culture this can be 'bad' as one can relatively negate moral Truth in a politically correct and accepting enviroment by claiming victim status THEN go further and violate Church teaching with the assistance of programmed fools and or feminists knowingly or unknowingly destroying families and leading souls away from God...

Abuse perpetrated on another is a sin; however, UNLESS it is physical violence it does not leave objective evidence. The Church teaches to not judge others actions as sinful UNLESS the sin is objectively a sin as we don not know thier conscience -- YET, it seems on this politically correct topic relatively speaking it is quite OK to not only judge others as sinful with no objective evidence but to also assist in thier slander and punishment? DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I JUST WROTE?

Anyway, --- your simplistic rantings on this topic are nothing more than reruns of what you have been programmed with. Can you read the information and consider what is actually presented?

Are you a Pastoral Minister working with Catholic Charities in a parish 'Family' ministry by chance?

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), September 30, 2003.


Nope, just a SAHM. I don't think it helps much to go to a shelter--it just makes you dependent on a different entity and other people, which is demeaning.

I agree that there are false claims of domestic abuse, but do you think it is perfectly all right to tell someone constantly that they are worthless, can't make it without (the abuser), can't do anything right, that they can't see their own family, etc., etc.? From what you just wrote, it sounds as if you do. If you don't think of it as a form of abuse, what do you think it is? True Love? No thanks.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), September 30, 2003.


I might add that when someone hits you, it's already too late, you should have gotten a clue and left, with the children (though again, not to a shelter) before it happens.

Next, you should look at yourself in a mirror and accept the fact that YOU picked a loser. Domestic abuse/violence does not come out of a clear blue sky. There are things to look out for in a person before you get married. Then you dust yourself off and get on with your life, without him.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), September 30, 2003.


GT,

It is evident that your views are one sided on the issue of domestic violence.

In practice these laws are misused to destroy good families....

Do you understand that less then 2 percent of the reported cases are valid in the State of NJ...And 90 percent of these cases are in our inner cities.

The rest of the womens shelter movent is strickly a money scam to obtain and increase continued funding from our State and Federal taxes. Its a money game likr the abortion game....Abortion is not about a womens right....Its about the billion in tax dollars that gets filtered to Pro abortion activists for the propagation of their cause. There is no oversight for the money or accountability for the cause they are suppose to be helping....Essentially it is funding for radical feminist ideoligy that is anti-men....anti-child and anti - life....

Think about the reality of the feminist mantra that drives the domestic violence fraud industry and feel for a moment, the children that suffer from false accusations perpetrated on one parent(usually the Dad). Now consider the devasdation for that child throughout life. Thousands of families each day are destroyed by false domestic violence..False child abuse claims...False rape claims.

It is important to react in the event something does happen , but to condem another based on ideoligy is morally and ethically wrong.

The entire system is based on making money for lawyers, women shelter advocates and all the profiteers surrounding the divorce industry.

Its time for all Catholics to take a proactive stance against domestic violence fraud. Zero tolerance for domestic violence fraud. Manditory disbarment for lawyers that falsely accuse others. Manditory 1 year in jail for any person that falsely accuses another.

Put a cap on what lawyers can make in a divorse case and watch the false accusations fade quickly...THink about it???

-- MGA (mg_comm@hotmail.com), September 30, 2003.



"Put a cap on what lawyers can mak in a divorce case and watch the false accusations drop..... Think about it"

Lawyers are usually paid by the hour in divorce cases. How can you cap the amount of time required in a case? Each case is different. It would be like trying to put a cap on a doctor for each cancer patient he treats.

Lawyers have to be paid for there time too. They have to eat. If you put a cap on it, than money will be getting exchanged under the table. Lets face it when we walk in Court we want the best lawyer possible to represent us in any kind of Court(civil, criminal...)

Make sure you are careful who you marry. Marriage is for a lifetime.

-- . (David@excite.com), September 30, 2003.


I am against abortion, but I do not see where spousal abuse is in the same boat here. They're two different issues, in fact, and totally unconnected, unless you have some man coercing his wife to have an abortion or causing her to lose the baby because he physically injured her.

Are you complaining that Women's Studies is a goof-off degree? Well, duh. Join the crowd. As a woman I think it is a stupid degree. A lot of those teaching degrees are, which is why most of those folks can't get jobs outside of teaching. If you don't like women's shelters don't donate to them, but if your sister tells you her husband is mistreating her are you just going to laugh in her face? Gee, so much for family.

I'm sure there are some women who believe as you say, that marriage and men are awful, etc., but I don't meet very many of them. Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong crowd?

I'm not saying that sometimes vengeful spouses don't make up things, but it's not like men can't turn around and make the very same accusations. You make it sound like it's an epidemic, that every charge is false, and I just doubt that it is as widespread as you say.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), September 30, 2003.


Dave.... Regarding lawyers..Of course lawyers should be paid and earn a living. It is apparent you have not been wittness to the extortion that takes place in family court. Due process is put aside and the propagation of exaserbating the case is common practice. DV laws are encouraged by lawyers because once the DV card is involked, by either party. Most all are false 95%...any excuse will due. The lawyers now become full vested partners in the couples net worth. Couples can only talk through lawyers who now have no incentive to focus on only the four basic issues surrounding divorce. 95 percent of divorce litigation is nonsence propagated to create billable hours.

Interview some ethical lawyers...go to your local DV court and watch what goes on....follow a few cases and see the absolute nonsence that is created to forcefully tear the family unit apart. Did you ever wonder why you see advertisement for divorce $250.00 plus filing fees???

Because that is what it really cost.

Any decent lawyer can sit with a couple and discuss their finances, children, assets etc and within an hour determine the outcome within 98 percent accuracy. The pulling of the DV card brings the family into complete turmoil both in the divorce litigation and post divorce environment. There is never any point in the process for the couple to mediate and discuss issues for resolution until the lawyers see the couples net worth is depleted. In fact most lawyers trick their clients into telling then their net worth and then selectively tell the client what they can do.

Caps put on the various components of the case will prevent lawyers from taking advantage of unsuspecting clients.

Comparison to a Doctor?? Notice how doctors are regulated by insurance companies?? Yes regulated! on what they will get paid for a visit to what the insurance company will pay for a procedure or how one gets to a specialist for a particular situation. Even insurance companies present limits on how many things can be covered.

With family law its complete wild west where the lawyers are not bound by any regulation (except ethics) which is not enforceable. Ever wonder why there are lists all over the internet is Doctors have complaints filed against them yet lawyers have no such list. For lawyers the grievence process is self regulated and they are judges by their peers. AZ. was the first state to establish a commission of lawyers to follow up all complaints and procecute all lawyers. Thousands of lawyers have been convicted. Where CA. with 10 times the amount of lawyers in the State have one tenth the procecuted , convicted complaints. Why?? because focus has been put in place to protect the consumer. The idea of an adversarial engagement between lawyers is being replaced by mediation based family lawyers. Until recognition of the problem by the public and pressure is applied to the BAR to convict unethical lawyers, the movement to mediation as the first choice will never mature.

Additionally,families will continue to needlessly be destroyed. Faith based counseling for couples to attempt to keep the marriage intact and if divorce is an absolute then the encouragement of a productive post divorce environment must prevail, especially when children are involved.

There needs to be a clamp down on the lawyers...most lawyers will admit that unethical behavior hurts the profession. The people must weed them out and not tolerate the planned destruction of the family unit.

-- MGA (mg_comm@hotmail.com), October 02, 2003.


GT, Its apparent that you have been so a custom to viewing one predetermined side to an issue that you have closed your mind to another perspective. Abortion....Domestic violence....

Follow the money....see the billions in government and State grants our tax dollars) that propagate each of these industries.

Billions each year and this funding is demanded by the radical feminist left (they do not represent mainstreem women or family)

Spend the time to look it up...spend some time in your local courthouse and form your own opinion..not what others want you to think through media sensationalism and educational programs blessed by the NEA.

Take your head out of the feminist propaganda that all men are violent and physically beat and batter women...they do not....

Women shelter groups are suppose to be there to help battered people....all people since their primary funding comes from the State and Federal governments. I do not dislike women shelters, I am dishearted by the way they use my tax money and policies they propagate. It one sided and does not promote problem resolution...only blame the man and family destruction. There numbers are never checked and their goals are never stated or verified for acomplishment.

The idea of DV has been morphed to be anything (feelings police, thought police) . Naturally physical violence is not acceptable from any party to any party...so don't twist what I am saying.

As a tax payer I question how my money is being spent...these shelters operate in secrecy without any oversight. There is no accountability for their actions only statistically impossible factoids that are clearly stated to continue funding for their cause.

Have their policies saved lives or caused more injury and death?

It is apparent the womens against DV act was passed to protect battered women. Since its passage the meaning of DV has morphed into what ever they choose it to mean.

Now any act,.gesture, feeling, thought etc. is considered the same as someone beating and battering their spouse...ala OJ Simpson.. Applying these standards equally to women would not be fair, it is also not fair to apply these standards to men. Every mis feeling is not domestic violence. I am adressing 95 percent of the cases that are presented in court. Now, go to your local family court or DV court and listen...watch....take notes...interview people...

Go look up you States crime report. In NJ it is glaring when one looks up the NJ State police. ..You will find most all injuries occur after the DV restraining order was issued. SO does advocating for DV restraing orders really help?? 98 percent of the cases are non violent. I would call this out of control.

Women Studies...Never said it is a goof off degree...Just go read the text and the course outline and you tell me if there is any factual basis for the ideoligy they present. Its clearly anti-men, anti- family and essentially hate mongering. You do not improve youself by bringing others down, as individuals or as a whole. Go read some of their textbooks and you be the judge.

Aside from propagating domestic violence, abortion, harrassment industry, victimoligy, oppression of women, down with a percieved patriarchy...etc....WHat value does this advocacy or teaching present to society as a whole? Keep learning....keep thinking GT!!

-- MGA (mg_comm@hotmail.com), October 02, 2003.


MGA, you can do a divorce without lawyers if you want to, and if you can come to an agreement within your state's guidelines (as far as child support requirements and such). I know people who have, and there was more money left as far as division of assets, and child support. Leave the lawyers out of it and everyone wins. Some states even require joint meetings with a mediator prior to divorce. If you live in a less- progressive state, can't help you there.

I do not know your particular situation, but from your writing I get the impression that you think all women are ignorant, they lie, and so forth. That is sad. If what I see in your writing is what you bring to your relationships, you are probably best off not being married to anyone, or imposing your beliefs on innocent children either. Just because you may have had a bad experience is no reason to paint everyone and everything with the same brush.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 02, 2003.


Again GT...you are making haphazard assumptions. This thread has nothing to do with my personal matters I do work with many men who are falsely accused of domestic violence, child abuse, completely without merit. i do work with children who are branded as troubled and used as pawns in divorce litigation. Most all of these claims are false, baseless and prosecuted without merit.

I certainly do not believe women are ignorent and never stated that. So if you are interested in posting please respond appropriately and without malice on the issues. Many women are involved and bringing the propaganda that is perpetrated by the feminiist shelter movement to the surface.

You have to dig some, but the truth will surface. Go visit your local womens shelter...ask questions..find out what is really going on. Volenteer to help them, watch how fast a Catholic women with Christian values is shuned. Ask some questions about their funding ...where it goes....what their success rate is ....what is their goals?

It is strong women that are needed to save the family unit and go head to head with the radical feminists that DO NOT represent mainstream Christian women.

There are many forces in our society that are, through man's law, successfully destroying the basic moral fabric of our society...The family.

Investigate....read.....learn....GT

May God Bless you

Many women are just not aware. Many women involved in family building and ministry within the Cathilic and some the Jewish faith, once they see the facts, just can't believe what really takes place. My input is based on experience and the pain of the many families and children left in dysfunctional families.

How does one put a value on a childhood.??

Go talk to the Father who has been falsely accused, lived his entire life for his family and kids. Never involved with the law, the police, any altercation with anyone, especially his wife, then his wife decides to have a divorce and some hedious lawyer tells her to pull the DV trump card. or better yet the womens shelter who touts free legal defence for women send in letters to a judge making accusations about the person without ever having met him. His only crime"being a loving and caring Dad and husband"

Talk to the women whose brother, son or male friend is falsely accused and then criminalized without a finding of fact or basis of law. Dad looses contact with his kids and the accusations keep flying. Some Dads spend years just trying to contact their kids as lawyers drain them financially and the kids believe Dad left them. Mother is coached by the womens shelter group on how to alienate the Father and make false accusations to child services or to the courts.

Talk to the grandmother whose daughter in law pulls the DV card on her son , then tells the judge that that the children cannot see the grand kids and some politically driven judge take the grand parents away.

His life...life of his children and family, friends, assets, career are automaticly destroyed. All with an exparte' hearing (that means no chance to defend) and a stroke of a pen.

Go to your local court house and see the abomination of the law (man's law)take place . Keep an open mind and do not assume any person is guilty. Just take the time and listen and learn for your self. Take off the "men are demonic hat" and listen with your heart.

-- MGA (mg_comm@hotmail.com), October 02, 2003.


Okay, so you work with some Men's Rights organization and are writing from that extreme viewpoint (just for the record, I believe in Equal rights, i.e. joint custody and so forth). Fine. You don't seriously think that every divorce lawyer pulls out the DV card in every divorce, do you? They don't have to. Ever hear of no-fault divorce?

And what if women do? How is that different from some man pulling out the "bad mother" thing because the Mom is not Stepford Wife/Suzy Homemaker, or she wants to homeschool, or actually wants her rightful share of the marital property in the divorce or to enforce the child support order? Men can use the DV card also, if they want to.

Hellooooo. Women's shelters are NOT set up for getting families back together, and NEVER were--they are there precisely so that women and children can GET OUT of bad situations. You seem to think that they should be what, a marriage counselling service? Domestic violence is something that can happen in or out of marriage, it has to do with living in the same domicile, not with whether you're married or not. Anytime someone is controlling you is a good reason to leave, especially before there is physical violence as well.

So Dad made a bad decision picking a wife. He has to live with it. Mom apparently made a bad decision picking a husband, too, if she had to file for divorce in the first place. People don't file for divorce out of the blue. Something is wrong, even if the other party doesn't see it. Does that ever occur to the people you are depicting here? I guess not, you are presenting each and every one of them as being absolutely perfect angels. There are always two sides to every divorce, and somewhere in the middle is the truth. There is some fault on both sides when a marriage breaks down. Some of the fault might have to do with marrying the wrong person in the first place.

I agree with you about grandparent/other relative rights--it is wrong for children to be denied the right to see them, unless they are convicted felons, drink or smoke or would otherwise be a bad influence (like they sit around all day collecting welfare checks when they are able-bodied and can work--sets a bad example), in which case they shouldn't be seeing them anyway....

"Go to your local court house and see the abomination of the law (man's law)take place ."

There's the problem, sir, right there. MEN (not women) made those laws. MEN, not women set up those laws where women almost automatically get custody (though that is slowly changing), when in their infinite MALE wisdom (stupidity), they decided that women were always the better parents. The vast majority of those nasty divorce lawyers who help those awful women you're talking about are MEN. Last time I checked, MEN hold the vast majority of powerful positions in this country. Believe me, if this were truly the RAMPANT problem you proclaim it to be, MEN would have changed the laws by now.

You started the personal issues by labeling me a feminist. Feminists believe that women are better than men. I do not, I think men and women are equal. I happen to be a SAHM. That hardly makes me a feminist.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 02, 2003.


(GT, you should spell out the meaning of SAHM at least the first time you use it on any thread. Despite the fact that I "really get around," I had never once seen the abbreviation before, so I had to go in search of the meaning: "Stay-At-Home Mom". By the way, congrats on being a SAHM.) JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 02, 2003.

Hi, MGA

You are a pathetic excuse for a human to call GT a feminist. This shows how closed minded you are!

When I read you're posts I get the feeling you where spanked pretty well before(or someone you care about was by a lawyer). You think you are the "ultimate authority".

I have probably sat in a courtroom over 40 times in my young 38 years living. And know, I don't believe that 250.00 is all it would take for a divorce like you said you read. How the heck is a lawyer going to meet with clients, do paper work, do investigation into assets, go to hearings before trial for 250.. bucks?

Some lawyers charge 250 a hour. People know this going in. When it comes to the children people need to win. And a good lawyer can prove the facts. Sometimes the best Mommy and wife in the world is intimidated of Court. But, not a George L Russel jr.. You pay for what you get in this world my friend. Thats why some people drive Cadilacs and some drive chevettes.

God bless you.

D.S.

I got some swamp land in Flordia. Do you want to buy it??????

-- . (David@excite.com), October 02, 2003.


John, I'm so sorry, I thought everyone knew what a SAHM was. My apologies.

I consider myself very fortunate. Children need Mom or Dad (I know you remember another thread on this before ;-) at home.

What gets me are full-time moms who put their children in daycare because they want some free time. You can't wait until Kindergarten? They're only small once! As you can see, I don't buy the "they need the exposure to others" argument. They need to be with their parents and siblings.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 02, 2003.


Dave Dave Dave.....

Either you have been dumbed down in law school or do not see the entire picture within the family court system.

Lawyers in an adverserial role are not necessary. When it comes to children it does not come down to winning...it comes down to compassion for these kids. Its the lawyers that set up the system so good caring loving parents have to fight for kids??? Think about what you are saying.

So the only way to win the kids is to defame the other party?? Think about it Dave. Be the child for the moment...feel the pain of the child...live the life of the child who permantly lives the divorce.

As a lawyer ..you rape and run with money... As a party to the divorce you move on...As a child you live in pain.

Most all paper work is boiler plate stuff, so lets get real here.

Go spend some more

If you are a lawyer, again, think about the unnecessary pain caused to children...and for what ?? the dollar that buys a lawyer a fancy car!

With the four basic elements that the courts adress in a divorce handled, yes ,a divorce can be done for 250 dollars. plus filing fees.

So think of what a fool you were if you divorced in this system or what a theif you are as you raped a family for your own billing as a lawyer.

Now take into consideration the elements that expand or exaserbate the divorce rocess.

False domestic violence claims False Child abuse claims Using kids as pawns to hurt the other party Tearing apart the childs social fabric, sence of stability. Use of unethical Phycholigists to write false reports Use of child protective services to write false reports Baseless motions that could be condenced Closed door conferances between lawyer that divy up the clients assets for themselves.

The list continues....How do I know this?? Maybe I had experiece workng as a lawyer and seeing what goes on behind the scenes or maybe I didn't??

Maybe God told me to stop the pain caused in the profession or maybe he didn't?

you be the judge!

Authority?? you bet! Can you factually deney anything presented so far??

Closed minded?? Try seeing the world from the eyes of a child!

Ask a child..Dave

-- MGA (mg_comm@hotmail.com), October 02, 2003.


Hi, MGA

"Either you have been dumbed down in Law school, or you do not see the...."

I was born dumbed down!:-) I am sorry if I gave you the impression otherwise. I never attended a Law school or went to College.[But, I am very familiar with our Judicial system and common sense]

"Lawyers in an adversial role are not necesarry..."

Realy???? Than why does the Vatican have them working for them? Why does the archdiocese of Boston have them working for them now?[Rember think of the children, like you told me?]

Lawyers are necesarry! If they arn't, than why does the Church use them?

-- . (David@excite.com), October 02, 2003.


Dave, We are discussing family law...Destruction of the family unit...planned destruction of the family unit through man's law and the parties involved. Unfortunately common sence does not apply in family court. Due process is completely ignored. Most lay people do not even realize what is going on. Our judicial process belongs to the people it is suppose to serve not a group of men/women in black robes. I never stated lawyers are not necessary. We initially spoke about the use of lawyers and the regulation there of. How false domestic claims are routeinely used by lawyers to get a jump on divorce litigation. How laws designed to shield battered women are used as a sword in the litigation process.

Lawyers create contoversy to create billable hours. Try to understand the concept. There is no regulation on the controversy they create. Family law has little or no enforceable regulation. There are no protections for Catholics or litigants for that matter. We rely on lawyer ethics, and that just is not working. There is no enforcement!!

There are many lawyers who attained their law degree and saw what goes on in family court and just ran as fast as they can. Its not moral...it is essentially legal extortion of the family. It is 95 percent unnecessary. This is why many ethical firms are turning to a mediation concept in the divorce practice. The goal is to bring the parties together in a post divorce environment. SO the children do not suffer and so good ethical lawyers will return to the business. Matrimonial law has been taken over by highly unethical, lawyers.

Its so immoral, that good lawyers cannot sleep at night knowing they have just lied and cheated and destroyed a good man or women. Then look at their own kids and thank God they are not in that position.

Many good men and women cannot live with the lies. Others justify the lies and say "Oh thats what happens in a divorce"...No No No It is not the basis of our Constitution and our legal system.

Its the same as the complacency that exists on the abortion issue. Many people say " oh whats the big deal..its only a blob of tissue" No No No ..its a life!

Thank God that today at least partial birth abortions are soon to be banned. Its a start!!

Mediation divorce means alot less money for matrimonial lawyers but it is civil and less destructive on the lives of children.

Until the people of this country learn the truth as to what goes on and see how their tax money is spent within the judicary things will not change.

Think about it??? If you recieved 5 estimates for a job for work in your home, and four came in for around 2500 dollars, give or take 200 dollars and the fifth came in at 6000 dollars, would you question the verosity and the basis of a 6000 estimate vs all others at 2500?? Or would you say spending more money is better...you get what you pay for???? As a consumer you have choice...you do what is right for your situation. In matrimonial law the lawyer will size you up financially, want to know what you assets are up front...so they can position the case to maximize the amount they could make.

Imagine if a Doctor did that....wanted to know you assets, income, available cash to determine what to charge for a vist for a flu and perscription of an anti-biotic!! You paid 85 dollars for the vist and your neighbor paid 350 dollars for the visit??? Well that is exactly what lawyers do!

Lawyers need to be regulated in family law. A lawyer can take a case (divorce) and bill out say 4000 on each side or he can expand the controvercy to bill out 200 thousand...WHy? Once the couples assets are absorbed, then they explain the reality, which could have been explained in the first conference.

They use the domestic violence laws to create controversy under the guise of helping people. Nonsence...they do it for money and they know most all cases are not in the sprit of why these laws were passed.

The general publc is dumbed down to beleive the the statisticly impossible facts that are pumped out of the women shelter community.

During the summer of 2002 Pope John Paul wrote a message for all lawyers and judges to stop divorce. We are at epidemic proportions with some states at a 70 percent rate on first marriages (this is no longer an exceptable loss factor). He knew as most lawyers and judges know divorce is planned and encouraged in the family court system. The womens shelter system is a feeder system for the divorce industry that operates under the guise of helping battered women. They will maintain the illusion that domestic violence is ever growing....we pour billions a year into the shelter system and the only result is more violence??? Well maybe the money is ill spent???

No its spent just fine..It makes big big money for the BAR??

The weapons of mass family destruction are based on laws that are miss used, while members of the BAR and any other profiteers within the industry turn and pay no mind.

Its the greed and averice of the people within the system that has closed out any imput from pro family groups or the public in general.

Its no accident that people today do not have to sware on a bible before they testify!! Yes Dave, the moral fabric of man's law was based on the Jewdish..Christian faith, however that moral, ethical fabric has been removed.

Its time for all Christians to pull it back into society. The pendulum has swung too far to the radical left and our children are suffering.

Lawyers....good ethical lawyers do exist, however, in family law they are a rare comodity.

The Church requires lawyers because they are a large financial target...If the lawyers do not perform for the vadican or are incompedent..the lawyer looses that client. THe child abuse cases with the Church may have some valitity, but please do not get caught up in the hysteria. Believe me if the Church did not have money to target, these cases would not be prevelent.

In family law its one and done...anything goes....by the time the parties realize they have been raped needlessly, its too late. They go on to the next victim.

Try sitting in a local pub that family lawyers frequent...listen to the war stories as they jest about how they took the family assets.

Its become so common a practice that its acceptable to society.

Remember a lie stated often enough become the defacto truth....Unfortunately!



-- MGA (mg_comm@hotmail.com), October 03, 2003.


MGA, you can do friendly divorces through paralegals--a lawyer is not always necessary. While some lawyers may pad the bill, don't you know that even much of that is client-driven?

If one or the other party hasn't a clue as to family finances, they may NEED a forensic accountant to be sure that the lost money goes to either the children or the spouse. It is not uncommon for men to hide bonus checks, for example. In a community property state, HALF of that belongs to the wife by law, if she knows about it and can get to it. A forensic accountant will know what to look for and how to find it, unless YOU are willing to read up on the subject yourself and do the legwork.

As David said, GOOD help doesn't often come cheap. You are comparing apples and oranges when you say lawyers look at your assets and bill accordingly. Well, DUH, if it takes MORE WORK ON THEIR PART to resolve your situation, they should get paid more. If you have NO ASSETS, there is no work to do other than set up a custody agreement/child support, if any.

Parents that are not able to come to an agreement are NOT the lawyer's fault. SMART people look up online child support guidelines for their state, decide who gets who for the holidays and when, hammer it out, and then go to a lawyer to write it up inexpensively. Not all divorcing/divorced couples are smart. Anyone who would rather pay a lawyer than their kids is STUPID, whichever sex they are, and I don't care who did what to whom.

But you're STILL making a lot out of nothing with this DV this, DV that ranting. Honestly, you should be posting on some conspiracy forum, not here. Women rule the world now. News to me.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 03, 2003.


GT,

Unless you have seen and experienced how the DV card is played you cannot give speak with conviction.

Again my offer stands.

Would you like to speak to families that have been railed by unethical lawyers and the womens shelter group.?\

THey could use your support!

You are missing the point on lawyers and billing....It takes 5 minutes for one to determine you net worth. From there a lawyer will set up the client according to the couples net worth.

THis all takes place once the DV card is played....Remember the parties cannot talk...only the lawyers there to create havic.

Review some cases GT and you will see the pattern rather quickly.

Before you judge what I am saying ....Please take the time to investigate...

-- MGA (mg_comm@hotmail.com), October 03, 2003.


There ARE honest lawyers out there. There is Nolo Press (www.nolo.com) for the do- it-yourself (DIY) types. If your clients were truly "wronged" by their spouses, the truth will come out eventually. "YOU picked 'em!" as Judge Judy would say. So deal with the consequences of your choices instead of whining.

Your statements about DV, lawyers, feminists, etc. come across as very extreme and show a good deal of closed-mindedness, not to mention that the constant spelling errors are truly annoying to where it is difficult to take you seriously at all...

You just don't get it.

Expand your horizons a bit and imagine your grown up daughter being told by her husband that she was dirt, couldn't spend a penny without his approval, had to be ready for wifely duties 7/24, must dress for dinner, wear make-up, make his dinner, must have the house nice 7/24 despite kids, can't have any friends except his, can't see any family, except his, etc. Does he hit her? No, but is this the type of man you want her to marry? Gee, I hope not, but it probably describes some of the so-called "loving, caring, fathers" you claim to be speaking for. Good marriages are a partnership , not a dictatorship.

Are there bad court decisions because of false claims of just about everything? YES. Is it a raging epidemic. NO, NO, NO!

Educating you as to anything different is apparently hopeless. *sigh* Good night.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 03, 2003.


GT,

You are so out of touch with reality.

My wife, the adultress, tried to pin a DV accusation on me when our marriage was breaking up she did so by alleging that during an argument, when I had stepped out of the room to go to the bathroom, she had called her counselor who told her to call the police because our argument was too intense, which in fact it was not but it was heated in disagreement. Anyway, I picked up the phone which she was not expecting and called her counselor who just happened to be in his office at the time. The problem was he denied that she had called and stated that an argument that was heated but not violent was not a reason to seek intervention with the police. She backed down but I knew then that there was nothing that she would not do to have her way, what ever the cost. Like an ass I continued to trust in her Catholicism. I was an ass. I will never trust again. Ever. And I have relearned that lesson againand again with the Catholic Church, which is far worse that my wife.

Now, GT, if you could take your head out from you behind, which I doubt you will do, you would see that the "willingness to do whatever you want to do", especially if you have the means to do it, is by far more violent than most physical confrontations.

Do not read into what I am saying as a justification for physical violence. It is not. It simply is a fact that courts, with the infinite power of a corrupted legal system, can do far more damage than a punch will ever do unless. Courts have a long history of injustice in this country and I do not want to hear some dumb sob story that they are better here so "love it or leave" it garbage. Such comments are uneducated crap by people to lazy to face facts or too young and stupid to know better. The winner in court, almost always, can afford the better actor/liar/lawyer and is usually the one who strikes first, as in divorces where women file 75% of the time, from the data I have seen.

On June 3rd a father commited suicide when he was forced to pay for college for his greedy adult daughter by a family court. He could not pay his own bills but that did not matter to the court, so the daughter got what she deserved, she lost her meal ticket and hopefully the father has peace with God. The court and wife and his child murdered him, plain and simply. That is reality Mr. naive. Grow up!

Karl

-- karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), October 04, 2003.


Karl, MEN made those laws, not women. You and MGA are blaming the wrong sex for your problems.

If you did not perform due diligence in getting to know the person before you married her, that is not her fault, in other words, people don't change out of the blue unless there is some medical condition (and if that is the case you should have some compassion). You picked her to be your wife. Are you an absolutely perfect person in every way to live with? Of course not, no one is. Would she have even thought about filing the DV charge if you had just let her leave? Probably not. So whose fault is it when YOU don't realize that it's over? You should have just said, "Bye, have a nice life," instead of trying to postpone the inevitable. If someone wants to leave, let them go and GOOD RIDDANCE, children or no!

"On June 3rd a father commited suicide when he was forced to pay for college for his greedy adult daughter by a family court."

I'd really like to see a link to this story, if you have one. Did he leave a note blaming the "evil" family court? And what is wrong for a parent (and I believe that both parents are responsible for children's bills) to be held accountable for this? If the marriage had continued he would have OF COURSE paid for it. This is the same old garbage you hear from anyone having to pay child support, "Oh, I'm divorced now, responsibility for support ends at 18, and by the way I stop loving them too".

From what you posted, the wife was probably able to prove that college was in the cards for the daughter--perhaps there were other children for whom college had been paid for, or there had even been money set aside in a savings account for it. That alone would be pretty convincing evidence to ANYONE that college would be paid for. The daughter may have tried to get financial aid after the divorce but was turned down because colleges don't recognize the divorce, and they SHOULDN'T. You get a divorce from your SPOUSE, NOT YOUR CHILDREN.

What many people (of BOTH sexes) fail to realize is that there is always some fault on both sides when there is a divorce. I have no respect for someone who only blames the other person and won't look inside themselves to see what he or she may have done wrong.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 04, 2003.


Peace people. Peace. Take a look at what is transpiring here. Then step back and examine your own conscience. The ugliness in divorce, DV, arguments here, are all the natural consequence of sin. If we an avoid sin, or sincerely try, these things would dry up and disappear. Lets have a little peace.

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), October 05, 2003.

"The weapons of mass family destruction are based on laws that are miss used, while members of the BAR and any other profiteers within the industry turn and pay no mind."

MGA,

This is true; the laws are misused and the laws are vague in definition and subsequent interpretation of just what constitutes an offense/crime --vague to the point that it seems 'proof' merely consists of accusation without corraboration and this alone suggesting potential violence sets the wheels in motion to 'prevent' the criminal from committing the crime by imposing certain 'penalties'...

However, the laws that are misused are laws based upon faulty agenda motivated research, statistically unsound conclusion and a tapestry of of assumed correlation built upon assumed correlation...

e.g. Lets consider a study based upon interviews with physically battered women (notice I included 'physically' because now women are verbally and emotionally battered as well). The participants in the study are 'public' having filed charges for physical abuse/violence presently or in the past(this how researchers could find them).

The study looks at the history of the relationship and determines how the abuse escalated into physical violence THEN concludes that all or a majority of the phyical abusers started with 'verbal' abuse as a precursor to physical violence... hmmm... conclusion: verbal abuse leads to phyical abuse and those suffering verbal abuse are in imminent danger... WRONG!!!

There is no correlation and any correlation has yet to be proven statistically. The ONLY way that this could be proven would be to study a population of verbal abusive relationships over time and THEN see what happens... This has not been done -who reports verbal abuse -what exactly is verbal abuse -it is quite subjective...

There are many more 'facts' out there birthed by unsound research that would not stand up to critical evaluation AND in my opinion could be easily disproven using the scientific method -the Duluth model is riddled with 'them'...

For the laws to change the 'researched facts' it was based upon must first be challenged and overturned...

Do you know any doing this research? -In my opinion, that is where the focus should be -Truth...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), October 05, 2003.


GT,

The offer stands again. Stop the one sided feminist rederick and take up my offer to meet the people who are effected by false domestic violence claims.. Meet the Kids Meet the Dads Meet the women who played the card and regretted it

Discover the women who were sold a bill of goods to just drain the family resources .

Please take up this offer , then you can report back to this board your un-bias findings.

You rant with little knowledge base and really need to open your perspective to the percentage of cases that are falsely propagated for getting a junp on divorce litigation and keeping the divorce industry thriving.

Imagine, if society accepted any person at any time pulling fire alarms because fires kill people. And there are no penalties for pulling the alarm weather in a public building or a movie theater??

Now we all know fires have killed people somewhere in the past and more then likely will kill people in the future, but we do not encourage people to pull fire alarms for a feeling a fire may erupt.

ANd advertise..with federal and state funding to encourage reporting fires...encourage our children to report fires, tell society each and every day in the media that fires kill and report fires even if you have the feeling!!. Then have advertisement s on the life time channel that depict people burning in fires, advertize to call the peoples against fires shelter if you suspect fire...

Think of the nuts that will come out of the woodwork, just to see the flashing lights, if pulling fire alarms were socially acceptable and false alarms encouraged because you never know the fire could be real!!

Think of the cost to society these false alarms will create. Think of the potential lives put at risk to our civil servents responding to false alarms and the people having to evacuate public buildings. All in the cause of savings lives of people from fire.

Consider if 98 percent of the fire alarms were false and only 2 percent real. How would you evaluate that factor? WOuld you adress the false alarm pulling or just contine to propagate reporting fires.

Here is the most compelling twist!!

What if the people involved in fire fighting were paid, recieved pay increases and recieved Free state and federal funding based on the number of fire alarms responded to???

ANd every year to get the funding the people in the fire fighting (political action committes) industry present these number of alarms (posted as fires responded too)And additional tax dollars were paid to an entire administrave machine that continues to promote the death of people in fires, and the need for more money to support the cause.

NOW apply this to domestic violence false claims...because this is what is taking place!!.....and one can see what is going on in the divorce industry. Additionally, lawyers make big money, Phycholigists, women shelter advocates and all the folks surrounding the break up of the family.

Remember once a false DV claim is made there is no off switch no way for a women to recant her claim with risking the loss of her children or prosecution for perjury. Interestingly, women will be fully prosecuted for perjury if they attempt to recant their false DV charge, however, during the criminalization of men and the divorce process there is no will of the system to prosecute perjury.

It is clear, there is selective usage of laws to benefit the break up of the family unit. Women are essentially caught in a trap once they file for a DV.

How do they get women to report???

Read the questions spewed out by the shelter group.

Do you feel he critizies you at times??

Did you ever feel left out of a decision process?

Do you feel he doesn't want you to see friends or family?

You may be a victim of domestic violence!!! Call 1800 women center

Stop the violence!!

Essentually, taking every nuance within a maritial relationship and turning it into a building block to domestic violence.

The propaganda that domestic violence is ever so prevelent and expanding is shear propaganda...that needs to be exposed... and people need to evaluate it for themselves based on verified facts.

Federal and State funding that passes to Womens shelter groups need to be equally distributed to faith based groups that support the building of strong families and encourage unity between couples...not create gender wars. If Catholics do not stand up and understand the issues and proclaim their faith to God and demand from our legislatures encouragement of peace through mans law...Families will continue to be destroyed....Chilren will continue to suffer needlessly.

Man's law is being changed by the radical few who do not represent mainstream America and moderate Christian families, but represent special interests that systematicaly are destroying good families for their cause at the expence of our children.

SO many women are trapped maybe seeking marriage counsel or someone to chat with and then they are indoctrinated into the radical feminist mindset of all marriages being part of a partiarchy and women some oppressed class of people.

Domestic violence fraud is epidemic in the family court system and the women shelter movement is the feeder system that brings in unsuspecting couples into the folds of the destruction system.

In Nj alone close to 80000 report written up for domestic violence per year and less then 2 percent are even possibly valid.

The shelter system operates secretly, with complete immunity from wrong doing>>>>No accountability....no oversight

THere is a call for Peace with this board....Yes Peace is important....we all want that ...The Catholic Church and its followers must take note as to what is going on and evaluate the destruction of the family unit.

Our laws DO NOT reclect the encouragement of continued marriage and it is now just socially acceptable to be divorced over and over. Financial incentives are established by Laws passed by radical leftist women Political action groups under the guise of protecting battered women.

These laws do not protect battered women but only encourage further destruction of the moral and social fabric of sociaty...."The family unit"

Children suffer....Women Suffer....Society suffers...

The adage of propagating peace is noble...but the people behind the domestic violence laws do not believe in allowing Christians to live in peace and have taken a proactive stance to attack the position of the familt unit.

Regards,



-- MGA (mg_comm@hotmail.com), October 06, 2003.


"Do you feel he critizies you at times??

Did you ever feel left out of a decision process?

Do you feel he doesn't want you to see friends or family? "

In a good Catholic marriage, or ANY good marriage for that matter, the above wouldn't happen. It is WRONG for either party to make significant decisions without the other--like why do you think that now you have to have your spouse's signed consent before borrowing against your retirement plan? So that one spouse doesn't impoversh the other (and the rest of the family, if any).

I suppose you think that any and all of those above behaviors you listed are not only perfectly acceptable, but are actually laudable. If you and the people you represent think those things, you get what you deserve. And I hope you realize that by posting all of this you're just informing more women of how they can get the upper hand in divorce when their soon-to-be ex's are being unreasonable.

Have you ever considered that maybe things are bad in New Jersey because it is one of those "equitable distribution" states and not a "community property" state?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 06, 2003.


GT,

referencing your post:

""Do you feel he critizies you at times?? Did you ever feel left out of a decision process?

Do you feel he doesn't want you to see friends or family?""

--There is a lot of 'feel' in there and 'feel' is subjective...

Relational issues/events from an analytical and diagnostic standpoint can not be objectively analyzed with only one view/perspective -they can NOT be defined by one party alone -objective Truth is usually somewhere between polar persectives...

When dealing with subjective stuff as you cite above UNLESS both individuals/spouses are interviewed/counseled etc any 'abuse' diagnosis attempt is impossible and but 'bad therapy' on the part of any therapist diagnosing abuse... Further, an individual in a conflict 'situation' can not be considered objective...

There are approved and tested objective diagnostic tools and methods that exist in diagnosing an individual 'abusive' -additionally, the the proper method of counseling and subsequently diagnosing relational 'stuff' involves something called 'Cognitive Therapy' which involves investigating each spouses thoughts and perceptions, comparing them and determining where reality REALLY is...

'Cognitive Therapy' treatment and results are empirically proven -the feminist/alarmist based diagnosis method and subsequent presription is not...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), October 06, 2003.


Here is a former post over one year ago....Seems this radical feminist mindset has been driven into the Jewish faith with a vengence.....Read on GT....Read ON...then go interview the Rabbi...

THe Following article articulates the growing destructing that is prevelent in radical feminist run family courts. Many Catholics are driven and literally forced to be divorsed bercause of false alligations of domestic violence. There is an all out attack on the Family unit and Fathers. Our Catholic church is also being attacked with excessive cases of abused children. THis mode of hysteria is destroying not only the family unit but the very fabric that holds it together, out Church. The following article gives an example of how it has also infultrated the orthodox Jewish faith and how laws designed to protect are being used of weapons of mass destruction for profit. Read on ALLIANCE FOR AUTHENTIC JUDAISM The M'sira Machine

By Menachem Ben David

M'sira, the handing over of a Jew or his property to the non-Jews or non-Jewish authorities, where the Jew is not endangering anyone's lives, is one of the most heinous crimes in the Torah. As expressed by our sages Shulchan Aruch, Choshen Mishpat, Chapter 388:

It is strictly forbidden to moser either a Jewish person or his property. One who mosers a Jewish person or his property has no share in the world to come.

Certain elements of the Orthodox Jewish community seem to be ignoring the Torah prohibitions on m'sira. The writer of this article personally observed the following events. In a large Orthodox and Yeshivish type community in the New York area, a Jewish women filed a false domestic violence charge against her husband. The husband was served a domestic violence restraining order by the local police and was forced to vacate his home immediately. He was granted about 15 minutes to remove his possessions from his home. For months he was forced to sleep in the basements of various friends, while stripped of his possessions, unable to see his children, and terrified of being caught near his home by the police.

The writer of this article also observed the woman bragging about how she was able to remove her husband from her home. During the whole incident there was not the slightest outcry or public censure of the woman from the local Orthodox rabbis, or the community. As in ancient Sodom, instead of punishing the criminal, the victim was punished instead. A major Jewish feminist organization, LBYI, apparently broadcast a series of e-mail messages claiming that the man's wife was an agunah, and asking the community to support her. None of the rabbis I consulted with considered the woman to be an agunah in any way, shape, or form, despite the fact she had not yet received her ghet. There was no evidence the woman had ever gone to Beis Din.

Last May this writer was informed of a case of m'sira far more heinous than the one previously described. The 05/23/2002 Internet edition of the NJ Star Ledger published an article about the plight of Mr. Gerald Weiss, Hashem Yatsilo. Mr. Weiss, from Short Hills, NJ, is an Orthodox Jew whose wife allegedly sued him for divorce after he contracted a rare and fatal form of cancer. A family court judge allegedly ordered him to pay $12000 per month in child support and he was unable to do so. Mr. Weiss has been jailed in Essex County, NJ at least 2 years. He is apparently dying of cancer in jail and is only expected to live a few more years. The judge refuses to release him and he is not allowed visits from his children. The constitutional prohibition of debtor's prison and rights to due process seem to be non-existent where divorced fathers are concerned. I have independently verified these facts with Mr. Weiss' rabbi.

Upon making some inquiries and doing some research, I learned this was not an isolated incident. Wicked and oppressive ideologies of the non-Jewish feminist world are penetrating into our Orthodox communities. A whole network of women's organizations, some of them secular, and some even calling themselves "modern Orthodox", have become experts at exploiting the anti-male, police-state apparatus of the family court systems. These organizations will eagerly assist corrupt and wicked women to quickly remove their husbands from their houses and confiscate their children and assets. For details on abuses in the civil court system, see: http://www.massoutrage.com/rodirtytricks.htm

Various Jewish woman's organizations in New York receive continuous prominent and favorable coverage in the Jewish Press and other periodicals. Some of these organization claim to be assisting woman to deal with spousal abuse by providing low-cost legal represenation in both Family Court and Beis Din. A number of these prominently featured Jewish feminist organizations seem to be continually spreading hysterical propaganda about an alleged widespread problem of abusive relationships in the Orthodox community, the only solution being of course domestic violence protection orders.

Domestic violence laws are being promoted by woman's groups under the pretense that they are needed to protect "battered woman". Lawyers, toens, and father's rights groups have informed me that the the vast majority of these protection orders are obtained under false allegations and that the woman shows no sign of physical abuse. Doctors, accountants, computer programmers, and other professionals with no criminal record are being routinely served these protection orders. These protection orders are in fact a trump card which enables divorcing woman to obtain primary custody of the children, obtain possession of the marital home, and to evict their husband in one quick court hearing. The hearing is ex parte, ie the husband is not present, and no physical evidence of harm done to the woman is necessary.

Various Jewish feminist organizations are attempting to foist this scam on a somewhat naive and gullible Orthodox community. This writer was able to obtain a large packet of materials provided to participants at a recent "Domestic Violence Conference" (DVC) in NY City. The conference materials listed a variety of Jewish and political organizations as sponsors of the conference, including the District Attorney of Queens County, the Queens Jewish Community Council, various local politicans, a variety of feminist activists, and several modern Orthodox rabbis. The participants were provided detailed materials on how to prosecute their husbands for alleged domestic violence crimes. Some of the actions which are implied to be "domestic violence" in the information packet include: "withholding information, withholding access to family finances, controlling where she goes, making gestures, making all the big decisions, acting like the master of the castle, being the one to define men's and women's roles, playing mind games, giving her an allowance". For these "violations" and others, the woman were urged to go to court, get an order of protection, and to think seriously about leaving the household with the children and moving into a temporary shelter.

Many of the definitions of domestic violence in the DVC information packet appear to be starkly at odds with Jewish law and tradition. According to halacha (Jewish law), only a woman whose life is truly in danger may be allowed to report her husband to the authorities, if there is no other way she can save herself. A tshuva (halachic responsa) Kol Koreh - Hebrew I obtained from leading rabbis in NY explains how m'sira is certainly one of the most heinous crimes in Judaism, the penalty for which one loses their share in the world to come.A moser may be chayav misah even b'zman hazeh. At a minimum we are obligated to publicize the names of the mosrim and their supporters.

The DVC material seems to casually equate a law suit in family court with a law suit in Beis Din. An unlearned person reading the DVC material might easily conclude that a Jewish woman is allowed to sue her husband in family court, and then come to Beis Din only to obtain the ghet. Apparently never explained in any of the material in the DVC packet are the halachic facts that false domestic violence charges against another Jew constitutes m'sira, or that halacha forbids suing another Jew in civil court. The fact that so- called "Orthodox" rabbis could participate in and encourage such a conference speaks volumes about the moral decay and inhumanity of these "rabbis" towards their Jewish brethren who are victims of m'sira.

Certain modern Orthodox clergyman and much of the Jewish media continually raise hysterical cries about the so-called "agunah problem". Yet our Jewish brothers are being dragged from their homes, robbed of their children and possessions in court, and thrown into jail if they refuse to concede their G-d given halachic rights. The silence of the Orthodox Jewish community is deafening, when one considers that m'sira is one of the most heinous violations of the Torah.

Importation into the Orthodox community of the feminist practices of informing on innocent men to the authorities is an unspeakable, heinous crime. The activities of certain Jewish feminist organizations may be resulting in the wholesale m'sira of Jewish men. It is time that the decent G-d fearing rabbis investigated and condemned the activities of such organizations. The names of individuals and organizations which commit m'sira must be publicized to the Jewish community.

I ask the Orthodox community: Because the family court systems, bureaucracies, and feminist groups are waging war against fathers, will we now emulate their example in the Orthodox Jewish community? Are there any rabbis left who will publicly denounce and oppose feminist m'sira? How long can we continue to live in a country and culture which makes war upon families and fathers?

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

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Copyright @ 2001-2002. Alliance for Authentic Judaism All Rights Reserved

-- June 17, 2003



-- MGA (mg_comm@hotmail.com), October 06, 2003.


Daniel,

The original question on this thread was subjective--namely, that most divorces are "feminist agenda" driven and that all women just casually throw out DV as a reason for divorce. I don't agree. I think that MGA is taking a few bad situations (I never said that these situations don't happen at all, by the way) and generalizing all divorces as being done this way. That is what I have objected to in the beginning, that he has turned this into a vast conspiracy. I fully expect to read from him that women should never have been allowed to vote....

Don't get me wrong--divorce is bad. I agree with you that people can have differing perceptions of the same things, like during arguments. Sure, people should try to meet with neutral parties, but they still have to decide on who will be neutral to meet with, unless the judge assigns them someone.

I just don't agree that the situation as presented by MGA is as bad as MGA makes it out to be. He can quote statistics all he likes, but the vast majority of divorces cannot drag on and on as he says they do for one reason if for no other--divorce lawyers do not work for free, or on contingency. When the money runs out, they stop working. Whomever has the most money in a divorce (usually the man) can afford to keep stalling on this and that. Usually you have to pay your own lawyer up front, and maybe you can get reimbursed by the other party in the end and maybe you can't, but if you can't pay him up front he won't do the work. Even if there is such a thing as a pro bono divorce lawyer that only works for women, you can bet there aren't very many of them.

So, I still think with his unrelenting ranting he is also making a case that men who think as he does are a few sandwiches short of a picnic, because he comes across as having very extreme views.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 06, 2003.


MGA,

You are missing the point on lawyers and billing....It takes 5 minutes for one to determine you net worth. From there a lawyer will set up the client according to the couples net worth.

When you go to an accountant, your financial status is determined in minutes. Why? Because you want the answer and accept it. With lawyers, you have someone who because of personal "hurt" wants to make the other person suffer, and thus the unending, expensive, court costs. Of course there are SOME bad lawyers, just like there are SOME bad priests. Most aren't though, and it's really the divorcees that cause the problems, not the lawyers.

She backed down but I knew then that there was nothing that she would not do to have her way, what ever the cost. Like an ass I continued to trust in her Catholicism. I was an ass. I will never trust again. Ever.

This proves my point. You are blaming the lawyer, but he's just acting on her instructions, like your lawyer acts on your instructions. To prove THIS point, tell your lawyer to settle as quickly as possible, regardless of the cost to you, and see how quickly it gets settled.

Now, GT, if you could take your head out from you behind, which I doubt you will do

There's no call for that. You should apologize.

On June 3rd a father commited suicide when he was forced to pay for college for his greedy adult daughter by a family court. He could not pay his own bills but that did not matter to the court,

I feel sorry for the man, but if he couldn't pay his bills, he obviously couldn't pay for her college either. He could file for bankruptcy and kill two birds with one stone, if he was really determined to shaft his own daughter out of her education. Why kill himself? It's a shame that he became separated from his family, but I wouldn't say "the court killed him".

meet the people who are effected by false domestic violence claims..

I'd bet that for every person you could show who was the victim of a false DV claim, I can show you a woman who got the short end of the stick coming out of a divorce. What do you think?

In Nj alone close to 80000 report written up for domestic violence per year and less then 2 percent are even possibly valid.

Could you show your sources for these? I don't doubt the figure, but think that's quite alaming to have that many *reports* filed, many more are probably going UNfiled.

GT,

I hope these aren't divorcable "abuse"!

"Do you feel he critizies you at times??

Did you ever feel left out of a decision process?

So saying "why didn't you look where the H@ll you were going?" when a spouse backs over a trashcan would be abuse? That trashcan could have been a child. Some criticisms ARE justified, and not abuse. And I can't recall asking for help deciding what to have for lunch, so there are also decisions that don't need both people's consent, or approval.

Overally, my (correct ;-) ) take is that there ARE some nutty feminists out there, but most domestic violence things that I've seen are very real. Anyone who uses their wife as a punching bag deserves everything that happens to him, including his prison cell with Bubba.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), October 06, 2003.


I guess GT you just cannot get it.

You insist on creating a mind set and then stating that another approves of it (the male gender). This is not a gender issue. This is not an anti women issue....Its about families and children and how the current system encourages and promotes the destruction of families.

Most Christian people believe in family and the propagation there of. They do not advocate taking every mis feeling in a marriage and call it Domenstic Violence.

Because someone does something financial without their spouses knolwdge (certainly not encouraged on my part)it does not constitute domestic violence.....Get it.

If that is the case, every time a women spends excessively on a credit card putting the family in debt she is a domestic violence perpetrator??? Pull her out of the house...take the kids away and criminalize her in court. That would be unfair to stigmitise a women like that.

YOu are really out of touch with what is going on in the divorce industry.

THird time ...Take my offer to meet the victimized Women....Men ...and children....who have fallen prey to the radical feminists.

Then give an opinion

....Share the news with your friends at the shelter...GT. Families and all people of faith are on to their destructive game.

-- MGA (mg_comm@hotmail.com), October 06, 2003.


"So saying "why didn't you look where the H@ll you were going?" when a spouse backs over a trashcan would be abuse? That trashcan could have been a child. Some criticisms ARE justified, and not abuse. And I can't recall asking for help deciding what to have for lunch, so there are also decisions that don't need both people's consent, or approval."

Hi Frank,

No, I wouldn't think the trashcan thing was abuse at all, but there would have been some choice words in return for the spouse leaving said trashcan out.... ;-)

I think most women give as good as they get verbally, and I also think that men CAN be beaten down (abused, if you will, as opposed to violence) with constant nagging and criticism, but that men will rarely report it, just as men will rarely (the Joan Lunden divorce case was a notable exception but that was only because there was serious money involved) pursue getting child support from a woman even when legally entitled to do so because it is so rare that a man will get sole custody of the children, and they consider themselves lucky and don't want to jinx it.

I did say "significant" decisions, that was why I mentioned the example I did. No, I didn't mean lunch and so forth.

The cutting off from friends and family, now that I would consider a major indicator of baaad things to come, and you should leave now, before things get violent. When your support system is cut off, who can you go to here on Earth when things get really bad?

There are nutty feminists out there, just as there are nutty women who think that it is a husband's biblical right to hit them. "Abuse", however it is defined, should NEVER get a chance to escalate into "violence". I believe in getting out of potentially dangerous situations, and if that means divorce, well that's that. But, I do not condone making up issues that don't exist to better your case, for the husband or the wife.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 06, 2003.


GT,

No, I wouldn't think the trashcan thing was abuse at all, but there would have been some choice words in return for the spouse leaving said trashcan out.... ;-)

Well GT, all I can say is that's the payback you eventually get for having kids, it becomes the shiftless KID'S fault the trashcan wasn't taken in :-D !

Frank

P.S. I do know what you're saying though, We've had a sink clogged for months that I just got around to fixing yesterday...

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), October 06, 2003.


Frank?????

What are you talking about ...trash cans???? Please reviev the threads thus far ...The was never any example on my responces regarding that. MGA

GT,

Again, I challange you to partake in a little field trip to your local Court house, police department, women shelter, favoriate sons and daughters of the court (phycholigist.

Then meet the families ....women....children....men all permanently financially, emotionally destroyed by unethical lawyers.

Visit the local shelter group and see what really is going on ....Bring a camera crew with you... Expose to the public what really goes on.

Ya know during WW2 there were alot of people (good German people) who were in denial that there were gas chambers.....Not untul exposed by the US military did it come to light.

Millions of people were killed under the oppression of the Natzi Regiem....Now there were no statistics posted on my part...I ask you to see the gas chambers (women shelter operations) and report back to society what you see)

Yes it is epidemic....it goes on every day under the guise of helping people.

All the lawyers in every court vintage know the deal. If they do no they do not last in matrimonial law.

Good Luck GT.

-- MGA (mg_comm@hotmail.com), October 06, 2003.


MGA,

"If that is the case, every time a women spends excessively on a credit card putting the family in debt she is a domestic violence perpetrator??? Pull her out of the house...take the kids away and criminalize her in court. "

Sure, as long as you would do the same to a man, fair is fair, he didn't need that John Deere anyway.... It could be a reason for at the very least an official "separation" so that you can put the little notice in the paper saying that neither of you is responsible for the other's debts.

You are the one posting these radical ideas, and in your way you are responsible for any new cases that come about because someone and their smart lawyer reads about this subject. I'm sure that thousands of women to whom this line of big story would never have occurred to them otherwise will thank you for showing them the way....

I really doubt that shelter personnel have all the time and money you say they do in order to pursue frivolous claims. They have enough to do as it is to get physically battered women in good enough emotional and mental shape to withstand testifying in court against someone they are terrified of.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 06, 2003.


MGA, there is no comparison between even the nastiest divorce and the Nazi Death Camps.

Frank, my DH hates plumbing not because he can't or won't do it (he can, and is good at it), but he says it is ALWAYS three trips to the hardware store for parts.... :-)

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 06, 2003.


GT,

Nice try....deney the feminist mantra...then when called out and exposed...blame it on someone else....

The abuse of the system and process is clear. As a women you should do some soul searching. Try to view things from the eyes of the children.

-- MGA (mg_comm@hotmail.com), October 06, 2003.


mga,

Try reading others' posts, then the responses will make sense to you.

GT,

Yeah, not to mention it's so "yucky" LOL! I must say though that the new stuff they have out now is GREAT! I put a new sink in the kids bathroom and everything just went together like Legos, and didn't drip a drop. There's been some great thinking going on out there.

Frank

-- someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), October 06, 2003.


clive,

Do you have any suggested solutions? -just what are you suggesting:

--That DV is not OK but false DV claims are?

--That false claims are an acceptable lesser evil given the greater evil of DV?

---That DV is an injustice as is false DV claims?

---or something else entirely?

----please clarify intelligiently & intellectually on this emotional issue otherwise you may just be dismissed as but one more of the 'brainwashed' moral relativists blindly repeating and mouthing the words from the relativists mantra of lies handbook...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), December 16, 2003.


I will only add a little of what happened to my poor little boy. I was already divorced for over a year and a half with a new wife, and the ex mutually agreed upon, was where my son would live. I had open ended visitation. One day I found a diary of my son Matthew's talking about sex in it at 7 years old. There was an obvious adult involved because some of the writing was way to good for a 7 year old boy.

I was alarmed about the diary and brought it up to the ex, only to find out days later she went to "CIVIL" court and took out a exparte protection order, accusing me of threatening her on the phone. I was shocked. I lived with this woman for over 15 years, married for nearly eight and never was even accused of any kind of abuse, or DV.

To make a long story short this happened in May of 2000, and I have not heard or saw my son since. They won't let him testify. They won't take my evidence. No where in all of the protection orders issued year after year does it even mention my son, other than to attach him to the protection order. If I want to see him I need to jump through all of their "social agency hoops" and pay $ to get him back. If I was to do that it is an admission of guilt, and lends creedence to what is being alledged.

Do you understand what I am saying? My son has not saw his father for four years because an ex wife said I threatened her on the phone...no tapes not anything, just her word. All of my evidence the diary all of it was not allowed into evidence.

Most people say you need to get a lawyer. I cannot afford one, and quite frankly I believe if your going to give a paid for "victim advocate" to the petitioner, in a civil proceeding, then you must also give the respondent the same kind of advocate. That is "equal protection" under the law. Well what am I told, you can go to "Catholic Community Services", and see if they can help.

The gentlman that started this thread knows exactly what he is talking about. The entire family court is nothing more than a social feminist racket...nothing more nothing less.

I find it unbelievable that anyone would say that what I am saying is condoning Domestic Violence.

Eventually there will be a serious backlash for the "Unequal Rights" perpetrated on family court, that will eventually set back the feminist movement by years...that is if our society is able to make it that far.

Eventually I will be adding all documentation to my story and you can find it at http:http://www.thelawparty.com/FATHERSRIGHTS.htm

There is no pain worse than losing a child and when the "State" becomes part of the kidnapping and condones it, society is running out of time. The ability for women to get a protection order in a civil proceeding, backed up by the State, even tho the man has never even been accused in a criminal court...essentially what you have done is taken the "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" which is 98% and lowers that burden in a Civil Proceeding to the "preponderance of the evidence" 51%....please do not tell me that this is legislation that has like everything else spiraled out of control.

I am sorry if this is not put together in a fluid logical way, as I am just typing what I feel with no correction, or re-reading.

In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends. Martin Luther King, Jr. (1929-1968)

Take care everyone and God Bless and please pray for my poor little boy Matthew Thomas Chelton.

Jeffrey T. Chelton

-- Jeffrey Chelton (warrior1777@msn.com), February 09, 2004.


It is true that domestic violence occurs, but only 2% in marriages. The other 98% happens where people are shacking up without benefit of marriage, and is brought on by mistrust, a direct result of no commitment by marrying. Reference Marriage Savers and Focus On The Family for statistics and proof. Shelters ARE against marriage and DO exist to destroy marriages WITH TAX MONEY. I have read testimony after testimony from Mothers who have been tutored how to treat their husbands in HATEFUL ways...with LIES...in order to get them and the shelter MONEY. The Protective Orders come at the suggestion/INSISTENCE of the attorneys "because you have no idea of what they can do to you". Problem is, no PO EVER protected ANYONE from violence from the violent person. We have had deaths locally where the person DID have a PO in their possession at the time, but it did NO good. Pin 500 on your person and see if it stops the violent person. This is just another way for the UNfamily system to make money. The PO is put in place to PREVENT RECONCILIATION, prevent any kind of working-it-out efforts. It is a guarantee that there will be 180 days of separation without efforts of reconciliation...and an automatic FORCED, ILLEGAL divorce. No claims of wrongdoing with proof are presented, no defense permitted, and no apppeal to the judge's decision to grant a divorce based on absolutely NOTHING. NO Due Process, NO Equal Protection under the law, NO Trial By Jury of Peers...NO "justice for ALL". All of these are guaranteed by our U.S. Constitution. It's a Done Deal BEFORE court convenes. The whole system STINKS because it violates these constitutional rights of the one who wants to hold the marriage, family, and home together...IN AMERICA, rewarding the quitter/abandoner/deserter as they trash their marriage vows of "in the bad times till death parts us". What brought you together? You didn't get married hating each other or chasing after someone else. Communication in most marriages is the major problem, and it's just a matter of learning how to do that to save your marriage. Winners don't quit, and quitters don't win. Violence? Separate and get help, but save your marriage, family, and home. Five years from now you will be so glad you did. It will be better. National statistics now PROVE this. Do NOT accept advice about your marriage from divorced people. They have straight Fs on their report cards. Get help from older married people who have gone through the tough times that come to EVERY marriage. It is during the tough times that you make the best glue to hold the marriage, family, and home together. Love and marriage are giving relationships, and "I DO" is for a LIFETIME, according to God's definition. Marriages are one of HIS three institutions. God protects marriages and you need to protect yours. The UNfamily divorce courts tear families apart for profit to the state, just like autos are torn apart by chop shops. They are Destoy- the-family courts and profit is the game. $10 billion annurally for abortion: $250 billion annually for the DIVORCE INDUSTRY. Happiness is a personal choice; marriages are WORK...pleasant work when BOTH work on it. DO love to one another, in thought, word, and action; be kind; be tender-hearted; be forgiving; do to mate what you want mate doing to you.

-- Billy Miller (brmiller@bellsouth.net), October 10, 2004.

I find it remarkable that this tread is still active after 2 years. Seems the divorce industry continues to florish with our tax dollars and and the advent of femist jurisprudence.

I call on all Catholic lawyers not to accept divorce and expose each and every womens shelter group for what they are. Demand that your local BAR association holds all the unethical lawyers accountable for using false domestic violence claims as a means of getting a jump on divorce litigation and lining their pockets with massive billable hours. Its time good ethical lawyers hold their unethical peers accountable.

False domestic violence claims equals forced divorce and the financial destruction of the family. Our children are as lost as a vanished thought.

Lets have some Catholic lawyers define how Ex Patre' restraining orders are constutional!!

-- MGA (augiepal2000@yahoo.com), October 29, 2004.


It is remarkable that not one Catholic lawyer will step up and answer the question of exparte restraining orders being Constutional or not?

Can any lawyer adress this issue?

The domestic violence industry must be exposed. All Catholics need to begin asking the right questions.

-- MGA (augiepal2000@yahoo.com), January 10, 2005.


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