Our Lord mentions Heaven many times, but Paradise, only once, to the Good thief. It would seem, that Paradise is something else. If so What? Why would Jesus only mention this place once. He also said "this day". We know that the Lord did not ascend into Heaven for another 42 days. So?

-- ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), December 04, 2002

Answers

Perhaps this will help, Ed~

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14519a.htm

-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), December 04, 2002.

Ed, This is what I was taught. It was His death that opened the gates of Heaven. "He was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell, on the third day He rose again from the dead." So even before he rose from the dead, He descended into Limbo to free the souls waiting for salvation. His death and sacrifice on the cross were the means for our salvation, not his Ascension into Heaven. In fact, the good thief was with Him in Heaven that day, because by being God, it is possible for Him to be both in Heaven, and here on earth instructing His apostles.

Anybody, feel free to correct me if this is wrong. It is just what I was always taught.

Isabel

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), December 05, 2002.

Thanks Isabel, I guess your answer is as good as any. We'll find out someday, won't we?

-- ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), December 05, 2002.

I know that many may not agree with the KJV or my thoughts, but let me just post these verses here for you Mr. Richards.

----

Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

> Jesus tells thief they will be together in Paradise.

----

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

> Jesus spent 3 days and 3 night in the heart of the earth. Why?

----

Lu 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

> Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom. Why? Because Christ hadn't ascended yet.

--

Lu 16:22-23 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

> The rich man went to Hell.

--

Lu 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

> There is a "great gulf" betweem Abraham's bosom and Hell. So, apparently they [were] next to each other.

-----

1pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

> vs. 19 claims what Christ was doing while in the heart of the earth according to Mt 12:40.

----

2co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

2co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

> According to vs. 4, it claims that Paradise is now in Heaven, so Christ must have brought it there when He arose.

--

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

> Another verse concerning Paradise.

----------

Hope I didn't lose anyone... ha! I'm sure there is more but I can't think of anything right now.

God Bless!!!

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), December 05, 2002.

Thank you Tim.

-- ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), December 05, 2002.

Jesus did not ascend bodily into heaven for 40 days, but His spirit, like that of every human being, left his body and ascended at the moment of his death. It was only after he was raised from the dead (spirit and body reunited) that he lived on earth for another 40 days. He told the good thief that he would be going to the same place Jesus was going. There are only two places deceased human beings can ultimately go - heaven or hell - so the soul of the thief must have gone directly to heaven (which would be expected since he had just been baptized (by baptism of desire), and the graces of baptism remove all traces of sin and all punishment due to sin). And since the thief went to heaven, Jesus likewise must have gone there, since he told the thief they would be together that very day.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 05, 2002.

Then Paul,

Where is Purgatory and why didn't the theif go there?

Just wondering?

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), December 05, 2002.

Dear Tim, The thief did not go to Purgatory because he had just received the graces of baptism, which remove all traces of sin and all effects of sin. Anyone who dies immediately after baptism will go directly to heaven. Purgatory is for atonement for sins which we commit between our baptism and our death, which have not been atoned for during our time on earth. In Christ, Paul

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 06, 2002.

Thank you Paul for those explanations! I had not thought about that before, but it makes perfectly good sense.

Tim wrote:

"I know that many may not agree with the KJV or my thoughts, but let me just post these verses here for you Mr. Richards.”

Tim, aside from the KJV missing 7 books, and cutting and adding to a few others, there really is nothing wrong with it. We simply disagree sometimes with your interpretation of it.

“Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus spent 3 days and 3 night in the heart of the earth. Why?”

Very good Question Tim. I had not thought about this before either. Off the top of my head, here are my thoughts. We should note that when Jesus is referred to as the Son of Man, we are called to pay closer attention to his humanity. When He is referred to as the Son of God, we should pay closer attention to his divinity. Remember that Christ was ALL God and All man at the same time. He had a human will and a divine will; two separate wills but inseparably united. Therefore, the Son of Man physically was in the earth (or buried) for 3 days and 3 nights. While Jesus’ physical human body was in the “heart of the earth”, Jesus’ divine Spirit had descended into Hades, etc. On the Third day Jesus’ physical Body and His Divine Spirit were reunited and he was raised from the dead.

Thanks for the post, Tim.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), December 06, 2002.

While the Lord's body lay in the tomb, His spirit & soul along with the theif's descended into "Abraham's Bosom/Paradise" mentioned in Luke 16:20-31. Paradise prior to the resurection was located in "Sheol/Hades/the place of the dead" and was clearly visible to those who were suffering in "Gehenna/Hell". But there was a great and impassable gulf separating them. While there He preached to the spirits who were held captive there as shown in 1Peter 3:18-20; captured the keys of Hell and death, Rev. 1:18; and upon his resurrection led those held captive there along with Paradise into Heaven to present to the Father along with Himself as first-fruits of the resurrection, Eph. 4:8-10. When the Lord was resurrected many of those he was taking to Heaven with Him were resurrected also as shown in Math. 27:52&53. We know the Lord had not yet ascended to Heaven because He told Mary Magdeline so in John 20:17. But he didn't wait 40 days before bodily ascending either as stated in the same verse. Later that same day He returned and offered to let Thomas touch Him in John 20:27. After the Lord removed Paradise from "Sheol/Hades" Hell was enlarged to fill the void.

-- Rick Cuttill (r.cuttill@att.net), December 30, 2002.

Hello, Eddie

" Our Lord mentions Heaven many times, but Paradise, only once to the good thief....It would seem that Paradise is something else. If so what?"

As it is God's abode, paradise is located outside of this world. But Biblical language also places the divine dwelling place in *Heaven*. Sometimes paradise is identified Eddie with the "highest of heavens," The one where God abides. That is where Paul was ravished in the spirit to contemplate ineffable realities (2 Co 12,4). This is also the ordinary meaning of the word paradise in the language of Christianity: In Paradisum deducant te angeli..."May the angels lead you into paradise..."(Funeral liturgy, ICEL translation). Fron now on paradise is opened to all who die in the Lord.

-- @ (No@more.eddie), December 30, 2002.

When I was younger (some 50 years ago) I remember playing a party game, the name of which I do not recall, in which a phrase was whispered to the first in line of any number of participants. That person would whisper the phrase as they heard it to the next person and so on in succession down the line until the end was reached. The last person would recite what they had just heard and inevitably the phrase would be quite different from what was whispered to the first person. The lesson here is that the closer to the source the truer the information, and that is why I like to go to the writings of the early church writers. In this case, the question of where Paradise is now, the early church believed that Paradise or Abraham's Bosom was not in heaven, but in a place higher than Hades as expressed by Tertullian (c207). This was the belief many years after our Lord's ascension so it must be so now. As far as the statement by Jesus on the cross to the penitent thief; there has been a long standing controversy over where the comma should be placed. Punctuation didn't enter Holy Writ for many years so should the Lord's statement be read: Surely I say unto you, today you shall be with me in Paradise. or Surely I say unto you today, you shall be with me in Paradise. If the former, the thief went with Jesus into the belly of the earth to Abrahams bosom and not to heaven because the Lord Himself didn't go until more than forty days later. If the latter, then the thief could either enter Abraham's Bosom at his death or wait for his resurrection to enter Paradise in Heaven. The point is moot from the early church view; in either case the thief went to Abraham's Bosom or Paradise, or Elysian fields which was not in heaven.

Shalom

-- Russ Williams (rjshalom@centurytel.net), October 12, 2004.

The premise doesn't apply to that world, or place, Paradise.

That game of 50 years ago and our secret word, or phrase-- whispered to the first in line-- doesn't take into account the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus calls Him the spirit of truth. Chapter 16, John :12, 13.

He keeps incorrupt for the Church whatever Christ has spoken. Remember how well Christ undid the Jews in a previous verse, ''Isn't it written in your Law, I said you are gods? (And scripture cannot be broken.) and you say of him whom the Father has made holy and sent into the world, ''Thou blasphemest,'' because I said, ''I am the Son of God.'' John 10 :34, etc., This explains how revelations cannot be false. We must simply try to understand them, since they can't be denied.

I think we must accept every word that ever came from the mouth of Jesus Christ as incontrovertible. Paradise is what we call heaven, and not less. The converse is also true. Hell is where He says that rich man was sent after he died; a place of everlasting torment.

Naturally, this subject can be debated endlessly. But that premise about a game; it has no application in this debate.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 12, 2004.