What should one know before Joining the legion?

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In the interests of Freedome of speech I'm reposting a thread which was deleted. Everything which will follow will be items which have not been covered by me in recent threads and therefore cannot be misconstued as SPam by the Moderator. I will limit unique thoughts to this thread in an effort to not repeat myself.

1. Once you enter you will be totally cut off from your family, with no means to privately communicate with anybody on the outside. I.E. no phone calls while in the Noviciate, letters will be opened and censored both incomming and outgoing mail, you won't even get a chance to go siblings weddings, or funerals outside of your core family.

-- james Xwing (James_xwing@hotmail.com), December 09, 2002

Answers

If you really were in the Legion you know that this is not true as you say it. In the Legion the novitiate is a period of discernment. So also in the discalced carmelite order where visitors are almost never permitted and phone calls not peritted either, much less going to families weddings. In the Legion, if you were a LC, you know you can call your family in the Novitiate at Christmas and on your parent's birthdays. You can write anytime, and the reason LC's leave thier letters open is for it to be a sign of docility in their trying to live their vow of Obedience as well as openness with their. i know for a fact that all letters aren't read when they come in, beceuse I used to pass out the letters to the brothers once the superiors opened it with a letter opener, and then immediately handed tehm to me to pass them out. I even had a letter from an ex- girlfriend pass through because they didn't read everything.

When you are out of the novitiate you can call your family once a month, they can visit you once a month, and if they come from overseas you can spend a week with them. You can also visit them on their birthdays at their homes once you are out of novitiate. Tell me if the missionaries to North America, or China, or anywhere else ever got opportunities to communicate with their families such as these?

Religious life is not secular life, and there are differneces between the two.

-- Joseph Carl Biltz (jcbiltz@canoemail.com), December 09, 2002.


Spam spam spam spam Spam spam spam spam Wonderful Spam! Wonderful spam!

-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), December 09, 2002.

Firstly lol to Christine and maybe the spam diet is just what she needs in her life right now! Fish is an excellent source of protein after all.

Regarding Joseph's comments:

Firstly you have confirmed that the rules are strict.

Secondly when I was a novice we were not allowed to phone home. If that has changed I would say bravo and about time.

Thirdly letters are not left open as a sign of docility, you mean to tell me that you were never told to rewrite your letters? I was.

Fourthly you can't write anytime. Every oz of free time has to be programmed and your superior has to approve your use of time. If you are writing too often you will be admonished by your superiors, my superiors used to say, "let the dead bury their dead!" and we had official time to write letters home, I think it was something like twice a month. Again if that has changed, about time!

Fiftly if your family has money you can avail of them coming to visit you overseas once a year and it used to be for 2 weeks. In the early days Religious from Rich families used to come to Rome and Spain regularly p.a. and the brothers would get time to spend with their loved ones. If on the other hand your parents weren't so fortunate you would not see them once you had left your native land, this could have been as much as 14 or 15 years in some cases where the brothers families would go to Romer for their ordination, a trip their families could only afford once in a lifetime.

I was actually a religious when my grandmother, who used to live with us, died. I was not allowed to phone or go to the funeral. I was simply told by my superior that "it is not the legionary way." More likely they just didn't want to pay for my flight, they didn't want to set a presedence as all brothers would be entitled to do so if they had allowed me to do so.

As a religous, i.e. out of the noviciate I was not allowed phone home once a month nor on parents birthdays. This would be in clear contradiction to what you have said, and no I don't think this has changed. The legion could not afford all religious phoning home once a month nor on birthdays, can you just imagine their phone bill if they did this in Via Aurelia?

-- James Xwing (james_xwing@hotmail.com), December 10, 2002.


I dont know which Legion you were in but it definitely was not the Legion of Christ. When were you in the Legion James, why not tell us who you relly are, as you say, the truth will set you free.

-- Joseph Carl Biltz (jcbiltz@canoemail.com), December 10, 2002.

Here is more proof that James is filled with hatred. He makes no secret of it. We must pray for his deliverance from obsessions.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 10, 2002.


Thank you once again, Joseph Carl Biltz, for coming to this forum to set the record straight. For weeks, I have prayed for a voice of reason and expertise to come forward. I went to the L.C. site and there invited an expert to come to this forum to tell the truth to the whiners like James. I don't know if you are the invited L.C. representative, but even if you are not, you are more than welcome.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 13, 2002.

John, what would the people at the Library of Congress know of such things?

Just kidding! lol

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 14, 2002.


Hello,

I left the Legion in 2001. So I believe I was the most recent member here. I was told when I was first there that they only look at the letters, they don't read them. But funny that I was so often told to re-write letters. I was also told that I recieved a "trash letter" from an uncle who didn't want me there. It is a means of cutting people off from the world.

-- Andrew Boyd (andrewboyd100@hotmail.com), December 20, 2002.


> "It is a means of cutting people off from the world."

And yet, in the very same message you indicate that you wrote letters!

Andrew, you seem to think that how the Legion behaves in this manner is wrong, but you seem to not know that many religious orders have operated this way for hundreds of years. If the Church does not have a problem with this, and you do, who do you think is the right or wrong here?

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), December 21, 2002.


Hey Gordon,

Yes, did write letters, but I never truly wrote what I thought because then i would have been kicked out. And they would have whited out anything they didn't want me to read.

You have told me that the Carmelites do this, but I know Carmelite priests who disagree with the practice. Coincidentally, he dislkes the Legion.

Just because people have done it for a while, doesn't mean it is good. The inquisition was in practice for a while, same with the death penalty, but the Church is the biggest advocate against the death penalty. Should peop[le still practice the inquisition?

I went through it, and it is not healthy for the mind.

In Christ,

-- Andrew Boyd (andrewboyd100@hotmail.com), December 22, 2002.



Comparing the Legion's practice of determining what would be harmful for the vocations of their seminarians to the inquisition is, in an understatement, unjust & totally off the topic. The Legion has a duty to protect its seminarians from factors which could compromise their vocation especially when a young man has just begun to live a religious life.

Andrew, how long were you in the Legion and how far along in your formation did you get? who are some of the priests or brothers you know personally?

Joe

-- Joseph Carl Biltz (jcbiltz@canoemail.com), December 23, 2002.


Dear Joseph, Hello. I hope that you and i can talk about this and not become enemies. I have spoken with LC's about this stuff and we are ab le to so charitably. I am not saying you aren't being unChristian, I just want to let you know I am not trying to cause you to hate me. You seem like good guy from the other posts, and I hate to be turned against my catholic brothers.

Sorry about the misunderstanding. Gordon said that reading the mail has been practiced in orders for hundreds of years. I don't think that is a good reason for them to still do it, because we had the Inquisition for hundreds of years, and the Church executed heretics for hundreds of years.

I was a Precandidate for a year, pcLC, and then a pc Candidate. Were you ever a PC? I entered July 2000, and left July 2001, instead of going to the Novitiate. Fr. David Steffy was/is the rector, Fr John Curran the vice-rector, Fr. Victor Franco, dean of Studies, Fr. Patrick Walsh, I forgot his job, I believe he is in Orange now. Fr. Chris Brackett was the Director of Novices in Cheshire. Fr. Julio Marti the rectoer of Cheshire. Did you know any of these guys? Oh, Fr. Patrick Murphy was the one who introduced me to the Legion. The list can go on and on as you know. How about yourslef? altough from what you say, it seemed like you were in long ago, before my time. I know have of the novices at Cheshire now, they were PC's with me.

You may say that because I wasn't a novice then I can't say what it is like. But these is little difference, unless my friends in the Novitiate have been lying to me, which I doubt.

You said above that you knew the letters weren't read? Can you be sure? Like I said, I was told to rewrite letters, told that I was preaching in my letters too much, and I knew before hand if I was going to recieve a "trash" letter.

Again, when were you in? An whom did you know? Ahh, the memories. IN Christ,

-- Andrew Boyd (andrewboyd100@hotmail.com), December 23, 2002.


> "Yes, did write letters, but I never truly wrote what I thought because then i would have been kicked out."

Andrew, sounds to me they would have been doing you and themselves a favor, since you did not agree with their practices.

> "You have told me that the Carmelites do this, but I know Carmelite priests who disagree with the practice."

I was actually thinking of the Benedictines.

> "Just because people have done it for a while, doesn't mean it is good."

And just because you disagree with it, does not make it wrong. I mean we are talking about something that is done in God's Holy Church for hundreds of years, and I fail to see what's so wrong about it. I have heard your reasons, but I don't agree with them.

> "The inquisition was in practice for a while, same with the death penalty, but the Church is the biggest advocate against the death penalty. Should peop[le still practice the inquisition?"

Actually that is very misleading what you wrote. The Church never claimed that capital punishment is wrong in all cases. There are circumstances that allow for capital punishment, but those circumstances do not really exist in the modern age, when society is in a better position to defend itself, through other methods.

A good question is: Was the Inquisition wrong in every case it tried, and were those verdicts just? I mean this is a question that can be debated all day. A good question to you, should the Church and society allow a person, to spread immoralty, that could cause souls to be lost to hell? If a society is just in doing something about it, what is the appropiate response. In modern society it is incarceration. In an age, like the time of the inquisition, when society punished criminals so severly, like capital punishment for stealing, was the inquisition out of bounds for it's punishments for the time period it existed in? I don't think there are any easy answers here.

> "I went through it, and it is not healthy for the mind."

I get the impression it was not good for you, and to me this is just evidence that you did not have a vocational calling to that order. If just have to learn to accept this, and stop being so bitter against this order.

I agree with Joe, that comparing the Legion's practice of reading your letters, to the Inquisition is a very poor example. It's like comparing the police act of giving out traffic tickets to the behaviour of the Nazi's in exterminating 6 million people. Why use such an extreme example to make your point. Let your arguments speak for themselves. You can't do that, simply because you do not any good arguments against it. You just dislike it, as you resent the control they had over you. It's called humility and obedience, a concept you don't understand very well.

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), December 24, 2002.


Dear Gordon,

"Andrew, sounds to me they would have been doing you and themselves a favor, since you did not agree with their practices."

True, that's why I left at the end of the school year, but I wasn't going to leave during the year, because my education is more important to me than their medieval formation system.

"I was actually thinking of the Benedictines."

Do me a small favor, give me the contact info for a Benedictine monastary, address and phone, so I can look into it, give me as many places as you like.

"The Church never claimed that capital punishment is wrong in all cases. There are circumstances that allow for capital punishment, but those circumstances do not really exist in the modern age, when society is in a better position to defend itself, through other methods."

I know, I did learn stuff in the Legion, and the seminary. It was practiced for hundreds of years. The doctors of the Church like Aquinas supported the execution of heretics. I can bluntly admitt I believe that was the right thing to do at that time, because if you read the numbers of how many nuns and priests were killed by the reformers, it is obvious that heresy could not spread, but it is, as you said, a different time. The same would apply to the inquisition.

cont'd

-- Andrew Boyd (andrewboyd100@hotmail.com), December 26, 2002.


"If just have to learn to accept this, and stop being so bitter against this order."

Many bishops, whom the Holy Father has appointed, are bitter towards the Legion. http://saintjosephcathedral.org/sitemap/news/news%2D10% 2D26% 2D2002.htm

"It's called humility and obedience, a concept you don't understand very well."

I was obedient, but there are extremes. If you want to pursure humility, send me your mail, and I will read it for you, the send it back. But, no, I wouldn't want to violate your privacy. I understand humilty, I wouldn't have gone into another seminary if I wanted to avoid it. There are extremes. It would be humbling to have to stand out by the road in my underwear, but that is extreme, like reading the mail. Which is why the majority of non LC priests disagree with the practice.

When the Legion does this, cut people off from the world, they take away their freedom, given by God, to choose to love Him. You don't have the choice to reject the evil of Satan. Suddenly, when they are out into the world as a priest, they cannot deal with this foreign temptation, and hence, many end up leaving. It happen with the first 9 Legionaries, and it continues to happen.

If it is the way to go, I don't know why the Pope doesn't mandate it for the diocesan seminaries? Especially with the problems today. Check out this post, tell me what you think. http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00AH94

In Christ,

-- Andrew Boyd (andrewboyd100@hotmail.com), December 26, 2002.



Many bishops, whom the Holy Father has appointed, are bitter towards the Legion. http://saintjosephcathedral.org/sitemap/news/news%2D10% 2D26% 2D2002.htm (So says A. Boyd.)

The linked item does not support either Boyd claim. It says nothing about "many bishops." And it expresses nothing "bitter."

Fact: The linked site shows that only one bishop has chosen not to allow Legion of Christ priests to work in his diocese. (He has not forbidden the presence of the associated "Regnum Christi" group in his diocese. He has not forbidden his people to join Regnum Christi.)

Fact: The linked site does not clearly explain why the Legion cannot work there, except for a cryptic reference to fund-raising activities. Perhaps something that needed the bishop's permission was done by a Legion representative without that permission.

Fact: There is not even a HINT that this one bishop believes any of the anti-Legion slander that has littered this forum for months now.



-- (For@Boyd.Brain), December 26, 2002.


> "I was obedient, but there are extremes. If you want to pursure humility, send me your mail, and I will read it for you, the send it back."

If I joined the Legion of Christ, I would be open to that level of humility, and yes, I would not like it, but that is what humility is about, it's about a sacrifice of some sort, or it would be meaningless.

> "When the Legion does this, cut people off from the world, they take away their freedom, given by God, to choose to love Him. You don't have the choice to reject the evil of Satan."

That makes no sense. Just because you cannot write to people and say what you want?

> "Do me a small favor, give me the contact info for a Benedictine monastary, address and phone, so I can look into it, give me as many places as you like."

Andrew, my friend just entered a Benedictine monestary, where they read all the letters that are going out, and are going in. Here is the contact info for that monestary: Westminster Abbey Mission, BC V2V 4J4 Canada

Please do contact them, and let me know what kind of response you get! I have a feeling you will not follow through on this.

Andrew, I doubt I will ever see your complaints against the LOC as just, as you and James have been complaining about them for a long time now, and all I see is two guys who do not have a vocational calling for the LOC. Just accept this and move on with you life. This bitterness you have about them cannot be healthy for you. Give it up!

I mean you guys are barking up a wall, as almost everyone here, who are good Catholics, oppose your complaints against the Legion. Anyway, I might as well stop trying to convince you from your mission, as I don't believe for a second you are going to get over this anytime soon.

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), December 28, 2002.


Andrew, here is better contact info for Westminster Abbey.

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), December 28, 2002.

Dear Gordon,

"That makes no sense. Just because you cannot write to people and say what you want?"

I am there speaking about the incoming mail. You are sheltered for so long, and you do not know how to say 'no' to temptation. When you go out, it is very hard to say 'no'. About contacting the Abbey, I may not contact them, it is not the first on my list to do. I want you to know that I believe you, I just want to ask them about the details.

"Just accept this and move on with you life."

Gordon, I am happy with my life, and am glad where I am. But I cannot change my feelings about the Legion. As long as they are decieving young men the way I was, I cannot be at ease with them.

"who are good Catholics, oppose your complaints against the Legion."

You are good catholics, but the diocesan priests I know, all of them, who wre also good, don't like the Legion. The Legion is not allowed in the dioceses of Pensacola, Miami, and Columbus. These are good bishops, whom the Pope has appointed, I would rather side with them, so to speak. Not only are there the diosecan priests, but most other priests from orders oppose the Legion.

I am not planning on staying too much longer, regarding what you mentioned. But I still want you to do something I suggested a while back. Go to your parish priest, and ask him what he thinks. If he doesn't know, or you think he is liberal, go to others. You will find that they usually don't like them.

Why does the Legion have these problems in the diocese, but other orders don't?

In Christ,

-- Andrew Boyd (andrewboyd100@hotmail.com), December 28, 2002.


Dear John,

"Fact: The linked site shows that only one bishop has chosen not to allow Legion of Christ priests to work in his diocese. (He has not forbidden the presence of the associated "Regnum Christi" group in his diocese. He has not forbidden his people to join Regnum Christi.)"

That is true about the link, but you left out that Regnum Christi apostolates are not to meet or work on diocesan property, and that no employee of the diocese may not use his position to promote RC groups. THe Legion is not allowed in the Archdiocese of Miami, nor the diocese of Pensacola. That is two of the seven dioceses in Florida, not a good record for the Legion. I wonder what other dioceses enforce the same thing.

"Fact: The linked site does not clearly explain why the Legion cannot work there, except for a cryptic reference to fund-raising activities. Perhaps something that needed the bishop's permission was done by a Legion representative without that permission."

The Legion happens to get kicked out for a lot of accidental things. I believe the Bishops are just looking for a reason to kick them out. For example, the Archbishop of Miami, kicked them out because they were trying to raise money during the archbishops campaign and another reason he gave was because they had tried to start a school without the Bishop's permission in Venice, another diocese!

"Fact: There is not even a HINT that this one bishop believes any of the anti-Legion slander that has littered this forum for months now."

Maybe, but he surely doesn't like them, same with the other bishops.

In Christ,

-- Andrew Boyd (andrewboyd100@hotmail.com), December 28, 2002.


Dear Gordon,

I went to the website for the Abbey, and tried to E-mail the vocation director, to ask him the details of censoring the mail, but the message was sent back as failed. I also asked him about what he thinks about the Legion.

We'll see what else we can do.

In Christ,

-- Andrew Boyd (andrewboyd100@hotmail.com), December 29, 2002.


Regarding the Bishop approval bit:

My Master of Novices used to insist that the legion were always consulted on who the new Bishops in their area should be. That the Papal Nuncio would take their suggestions and forward them to the Holy Father himself.

He also stated on more than one occasion that some candidates for Bishops would suck up to the legion and once in would turn against the legion.

Many have tried to say that the sick ones on these pages are people like myself, I would beg to differ and suggest that it is the legion which is sick, full of pride with a very fragile ego. Apparently everybody is marching out of step except the legion, that is if you accept the view of the hard core legionary!

-- james Xwing (James_xwing@hotmail.com), December 31, 2002.


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