Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annulment process

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I am a Catholic and very much want to get married in my Church. My fiance was once married in a Catholic Churchoutside the country while in the Service and now is civillay divorced. We went to speak with my priest and told him this. He advised us to get the annullment but said it could take a very long time. We did not want to put our wedding on hold and are praying the anullment will go through. Now we have been told it will still be another 12 months. What I have also found out is that he had the Military chaplain say that he received his confirmation in order for him to be married the first time in the Catholic Church. Does this impact the annullment. Can he withdraw the annullment and convert to a non-Catholic and then could we marry in a mixed ceremony (for me) in a Catholic church???? This process is taking so long and it is making me question my own faith, I have been to the Deacon and the Priest numerous times to discuss my feelings. Now I'm seriously reconsidering my faith....

-- Jennifer (anon@yahoo.com), January 15, 2003

Answers

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

Jennifer, I'm sorry for your situation, but I must ask if you are serious about having your fiance renounce the Church just so you can get married?? Do you understand exactly what that entails, and would you really want him to lose the certainty of his salvation for that purpose??

-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), January 15, 2003.

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

Unfortunately he is not a practicing Catholic. We have had many discussions and were considering having a private sacramental ceremony after the annulment, but plans have been made and our date is set and with all that has happened - he is question his faith too. I guess I am just looking for ways to advance the process or find a resolution so that I can remain Catholic and we can both remain in our church. Thanks for listening....

-- Jennifer (anon@yahoo.com), January 15, 2003.

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

Well, it sounds awful to say it, but if you're really serious about your Faith, even if he's not, you must make the effort, and be prepared, to wait it out. Obviously this will be difficult and time- consuming, but that's just how the Church works.

May I ask if you yourself are practicing your religion?

-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), January 15, 2003.


Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

Jennifer, Like every other political organization...it is who you know, how much money you can use to influence, and how liberal a diocese you are involved in. My friend had her annulment in a few months. That's REALLY how the Church works! ;-)

-- Cookie (CRS@aol.com), January 15, 2003.

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

Not to be mean or anything - but if your friend had faith in her marriage like you have faith in the Church, there there is no wonder it got annulled so quick.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), January 15, 2003.



Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

Be patient, there is a very good chance that you will get that annulment. Sinaatra did, one of the Kennedy.s did, despite the wife and kids. There were 300 annulments per year in 1950, there are now 60,000. So hang in there.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), January 16, 2003.

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

Annulment is Catholic term for divorce. And if you were serious in your faith and salvation, you know in your conscience, this is not pleasing to God.

-- lenny santos (academy@i-manila.com.ph), January 18, 2003.

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

> "Annulment is Catholic term for divorce."

I'm sure Lenny is being sarcastic, as an annulment is not a divorce, but means the marriage was never valid in the eyes of God.

It's looks like divorce today, simply because people are abusing the annulment process by lying to get annulments. This is out of the Church's hands, and those people are just fooling themselves if they think they can fool God.

The other reason why there is lots of annulments today, is because people are also having no intention of honoring their vows, when they take them on the day of their marriage. This also is out of the hands of the Church, and a huge injustice to faithful spouses who are getting married!

People get married today, without any intention of being faithful to their partner, and as result, causes lots of marriage breakups, and in such cases, the spouse has every right to receive an annulment, saying the marriage was never valid in the first place, because of the deceit of the other spouse.

The huge number of annulments today is just a reflection of today's society, that there are a huge number of people who are dishonest before God on the day of their marriage.

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), January 18, 2003.


Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

An annulment is not something to seek lightly. You must not seek one as a means of justifying a planned marriage. If you can not postpone a marriage to justly seek an annulment then you are not about to enter a marriage that even could be a Sacrament. If that is this situation then you are lying to yourselves and do not even understand what a marriage is in anything but a secular way. This is not to judge you this is to help you.

-- Karl (parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), February 12, 2003.

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

My annulment has dragged on now for over five years. The second instance (neighboring) Diocese refused to ratify the annulment granted by my own Dioscese. My experience has been that the people involved with the tribunals (mostly male) only look at it from a legalist and intellectual standpoint without any COMPASSION. This process has been agonizing and without much (if any) pastorial care for the petitioner/respondent built in to the process. In my case, I decided to go ahead and marry again because of a chronic medical condition that could shorten my life at any time. We utilized the "internal forum solution" to return to communion...but the annulment drags on with other grounds now being tried. The process needs reform...it is a brutal thing to go through as it stands now...I had hoped for more from my church.

-- Cissy (Irisheyes@cableone.net), March 27, 2003.


Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

I would like to add this: do not let the self-rightousness of some overly pious individuals deter you. I took exception to Karl's response to you. Each case is different Karl.

-- Cissy (Irisheyes@cableone.net), March 27, 2003.

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

Jmj
Hello, Cissy.

I was very disappointed to read your message. The fact that your nullity process has taken much longer than normal does not give you the right to bad-mouth tribunals and to break God's commandments and the Church's law.

You wrote: "My experience has been that the people involved with the tribunals (mostly male) only look at it from a legalist and intellectual standpoint without any COMPASSION."

Translated, this means: "The tribunals have followed the Church's Code of Canon Law and all the rules about grounds for determining nullity. But I DEMAND a Declaration of Nullity, even if they have to make up some new grounds to fit my situation! I need 'compassion.'"

You continued: "I decided to go ahead and marry again because of a chronic medical condition that could shorten my life at any time."

What do you mean, "marry again"? That is physically impossible, without the death of your spouse or a Declaration of Nullity.

You continued: "We utilized the 'internal forum solution' to return to communion."

No you did not, because there is no such thing as an "internal forum solution." That is an invention of dissenting priests -- totally illegitimate. Please separate, as soon as possible, from your present cohabitator and get to Confession. With your medical condition, you need to prepare your soul for possible sudden death. If you decide to ignore me and stay "shacked up," you MUST stay away from Holy Communion. Do not desecrate the Body and Blood of Christ on top of your adultery.

You closed by saying: "The process needs reform ... I had hoped for more from my church."

Rather, it is your soul that "needs reform". Jesus and his Church "had hoped for more from" you.

May God help you to straighten things out.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 30, 2003.


Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

A tribunal is a body formed for the express purpose of making definitive decisions based on the precise interpretation and application of Canon Law - nothing else. If they seem "legalistic", YES - that is their job! As private persons, hopefully they are compassionate; but if they make their formal determinations based on compassion rather than facts, or on a mix of the two, they are not carrying out their designated ministry in the Church, and are substituting personal feelings for objective truth.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 31, 2003.

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

I am seeking answers to the same type of question. The man I am currently dating was married in a non-catholic christian church. It was annulled not even a year later after his wife said she'd never stop cheating on him. I know the Catholic Church has always had it's own annullment process you have to go through before they will marry us. My question is, does his ex-wife have to be involved in this and what exactly has to be done? I so want to be married in my own Church.

-- T (tmarie820@msn.com), April 18, 2003.

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

T. This link will help. It is from my diocese, Houston/Galveston, Texas.

http://www.diocese-gal-hou.org/annulment_info.htm

God Bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), April 18, 2003.



Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

Thanks. I saw that first it says there is no fee, and then there is one... I'll have to find out how much that is.

-- T (tmarie820@msn.com), April 19, 2003.

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

The fee is not for the writ of nullity. It is to help defray the costs of the paperwork and tribunal process.

In my parish it is $400. The neighboring parish is $300.00. The processing fee is tied into the average ability of the parish to help in the diocesan costs.

God Bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), April 19, 2003.


Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

hi,i know of a couple that were married for 16 years.both catholic .they renewed thier vows after 10 years (in the church) had 3 children.then the wife meets someone else,tells faithful husband father of thier 3 children get lost.she gets the anullment on the basis she never loved this man or understood what she was doing when she agreed to marry.they married because she was pregnant.i think she understood that.the anullment took only a couple months.she then had a big catholic wedding with the man she had been living with (unmarried)with the 3 impressionable children present.her ex husband meanwhile has lost faith in his religon also.how does one begin to understand how the church can condone such behavior in it,s parishoners ? i think in this case when enough money is offered,the church turns it's head to discipline.sad commentary on the diocese .no wonder membership is not growing.we seem to be in the business of tearing down the family structure instead of preserving it.or at least in this kokomo indiana parish.

-- cathy hayes (chayes@cdtechno.com), April 22, 2003.

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

Cathy, it has nothing to do with "money ... offered." Only ignorant people (both faithless Catholics and abusive anti-Catholics) believe that a Declaration of Nullity can be purchased. The marriage tribunal (and the appeals tribunal too) do the best they can to consider all the facts and render a judgment. Then it is for the "spouses" (and for you and me as observers) to humbly accept the decision and get on with their lives, without losing faith.

Be confident, Cathy, that the Catholic Church does not condone the adulterous behavior you described. An individual pastor may get careless about such things, but not "the Church" herself. Please pray for your parish and diocese, and do not lose heart (which is what the devil wants you to do).

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 23, 2003.


Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

cathy,

the situation you describe is truly sad and unfortunately is not too rare these days as I have discovered. Visit some catholic church websites and you will see that is is not just your diocese that appears to be marketing 'annulment' -do we not market what we provide?

TRUTH and the search for TRURTH is not marketed -annulment is; ACCEPTANCE, COMMITMENT, & SACRIFICE that may be required for eternal salvation is not marketed -"feel good" NOW is; Marriage is not marketed -Single/Divorced victim minded pastoralism is marketed...

Instead of being a shining light signaling the proper path God intends for us -some PEOPLE in american churches and diocese have become nothing more than pastoral flashlights for the asking -a flashlight that those who travel off the path accquire so that they may feel thier path is illuminated -they are wrong. And those that feel good 'helping' others are wrong as well...

John -you would be correct if the Tribunals were indeed interested in the TRUTH, if they were indeed interested in the rights of the respondent etc. Thier actions strongly suggest NOT -they are for the most part interested in giving what the Petioner wants in as quick a time as possible -- Unfortunately, this leaves the responsibility of seeking the Truth upon the primarily uninformed, ignorant and confused Respondent -- IT is easy to take advantage of the meek, the believers -many marriages have been erroneously nullified and hence families & children virtually destroyed in the Tribunals zeal to be pastoral to the one who petitions...

Not everyone can get what they want -in such cases it is best to follow God's word, as Jesus said -he did not come to bring peace to world and as I suggest; where there is not peace there is in essence a conflict between good & evil. One is either with God or not with God -there is no middle ground

-much evil has been promulgated as a result of 'these' Tribunals ...

-my opinion...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), April 23, 2003.


Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

Jmj

Hello, Daniel. Your closing words were, "my opinion."

I'm sorry, but I don't respect your opinion, because your blanket condemnations are based on your imagination, not hard evidence. You would have to assemble a huge amount of complex evidence, implicating and convicting more than half of the 3,000+ diocesan tribunals of the world to prove your allegations. I doubt that you have reliable evidence (to persuade a jury and judge) to convict even one tribunal in the whole world.

You wrote: "Visit some catholic church websites and you will see that is is not just your diocese that appears to be marketing 'annulment' -do we not market what we provide?"

There is no "marketing." Again, this arises from a fertile imagination -- one residing in a person who feels "burned" by a tribunal and now nurses a grudge. We can't have any sympathy for people like you, who have become anti-Catholics.

You wrote: "John -you would be correct if the Tribunals were indeed interested in the TRUTH, if they were indeed interested in the rights of the respondent etc."

Thank you. Therefore, I am correct, because "tribunals [are] indeed interested in the truth [and] ... in the rights of the respondent."

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 24, 2003.


Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

John,

-or whomever you may be -I respond to the posting...

I do not have to prove what is self evident --IF one only looks and or is involved as a respondent -a respondent that has not given up and will not be hoodwinked by a 'pastoral' tribunal...

I myself am still a respondent -the reality of what I have found is far from the ideal utopia you espouse repeatedly...

I speak from experience -ongoing experience... AND I will publicize what I have and am uncovering...

What is your function in the tribunals?

How many marriages have you reconciled?

Call me anti-catholic? -I guess that means you are pro-catholic? I prefer to call you well intentioned yet misinformed and led astray... You espouse opinion clothed in deluded moral certainty and by doing so lead others astray -you wear your rightnousness well...

-continue on and expose yourself -come out into the light...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), April 24, 2003.


Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

To Cissy and all who may have been hurt by my response. The is a good canonist, theologian whose work is the best I have seen regarding marriage, divorce, annulment etc, he is Monsignor Cormac Burke. If you can find his works, please read them. They are just and they are compassionate. They can be a good source for understanding truth. John, Cormac Burke is in Opus Dei. He was the Ponens on my second instance Rotal decision.

Karl.

-- Karl (parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), April 25, 2003.


Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

D/K/B/P,
You (singular or plural) have jumped to a wrong conclusion about me.
I do not defend every action of every tribunal.
I do not claim that tribunals are infallible.
I do not claim that every single judge is perfectly educated, brilliant, hard-working, and free of corruption (though I believe that the vast majority are).
I do not object to appealing tribunal decisions to higher courts. [By all means, I favor this action whenever a person has a legitimate and nagging doubt.]

Really, this is all that I care to say about the subject. Please do not seek to draw still more out of me.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 25, 2003.


Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

I assure you I write only under this name. I do not feel comfortable as an imposter. Thanks for your reply.

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), April 26, 2003.

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

My last message was incomplete. I should have added:
I do not encourage spouses to get divorced.
I do not encourage separated couples to avoid attempts at reconciliation.
I do not disagree with the pope's longing that struggling spouses stay together (even when it is very sacrificial) -- this being particularly crucial when they have children.
I do not disagree with his urging that couples who were were invalidly "joined" in Catholic weddings do what they can to remove the invalidating conditions and continue to live together, now validly wed.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 27, 2003.

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

John,

Your last post is refreshing -you are almost there AND I mean that in the most sincere manner...

May I suggest that NOT doing something is doing nothing -do you follow?

Sincerely in Christ,

Daniel

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), April 27, 2003.


Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

As stated earlier, Daniel, I won't debate this, because I don't approve of what you (singular or plural) are doing here.
Excuse the double negative, but I don't "do nothing." And I don't accept you as a competent judge of what I do or do not do.
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 28, 2003.

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

John,

Good to hear from you. I have jumped to no conclusions regarding your intentions -I simply have responded to your actions...

When you recently posted your 'statement' in support of the administaration of the Marriage Sacrament as God, Jesus, Rome and our Church intend it I was overjoyed that you understood what you should be doing 'actively' e.g. your actions...

My suggestion was simply put: -now that you got the talk, walk the walk :)

Issue One:

The only unitopical and selfish debate I have inspired with my very singular presence was in regard to how, for the most part, the american tribunals are missing the mark... Your defense of the american tribunals was in essence a defense of actions that you now state you disagree with -In my opinion there was no debate -you agree and wish to now stop 'our' debate; therefore, the 'debate' on this issue is complete...

Issue Two:

My suggestion that you now practice what you know to be truth with those in need that you touch... Again there is no debate -your actions here will be self evident and will undoubtedly mirror your actions in your vocation...

TRUTH is not relative -- If you wish to debate or not debate -there is no debate... Debate and claim you are not debating -there is no debate... No debate - yes, no debate...

Sincerely in Christ,

Daniel

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), April 28, 2003.


Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

Stop LYING about me, Daniel. I have been answering questions here since January of 2000. You haven't the slightest idea whether or not I have "walked the walk." And you falsely characterize what I have stated here recently.
I will not debate with a dishonest person or a person who does not read carefully enough. Please go away. You are not of service to people here, you are harming the Church, and you are wasting my time.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 28, 2003.

Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

To get back to the question at hand, if you don't have the patience to wait for the Church to make a decision, then what the Church says must not matter enough to you. Don't bother getting married in the Church.

I know weddings take planning and all that blah blah blah, but at this point, it seems like it's just a social event, so have a party do it by the state and be done with it.

-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 04, 2003.


Response to Losing Faith in Catholic Church because of annullment process

Yea, that was a totally rude post. I don't take it back, I guess what the uderlying meaning was, if you aren't willing to wait for the Churchs decision, then you aren't taking it seriously, and it will end in divorce.

I know that is rash of me to say seeing as how I don't know the situation and all, but if you are willing to break the rules to try to get it done, it's not something that you really mean, that or you really just don't think rules apply to you, in which case reread my prediction, cause it will happen.

Take marriage seriously, or at least don't have kids. Thanks.

-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 05, 2003.


FIVE YEARS?! that is just plain torture for two well meaning people to have to wait. why?

-- wayne sprouse (pdqpc@yahoo.com), August 18, 2003.

The typical time required for a fairly complex tribunal investigation is one to two years. In clearcut cases with few complicating factors, it is often a matter of a few months.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 18, 2003.

"FIVE YEARS?! that is just plain torture for two well meaning people to have to wait. why?"

wayne,

-you too are well meaning?

I do not understand your question?

From what Cissy posted -the two well meaning people did not wait for anything and have even pursued the expedient 'pastoral feel good' 'secretive' hush hush yet meaningless "internal forum" solution?

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 18, 2003.


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