Renovating an old house and turning it into an Inn. Currently researching elevators and would appreciate some advice regarding my current project. The elevator will stop at 3 floors (approx 30 ft total) and space is at a premium.

Electric motor drive v hydraulic powered

Particularly interested in safety, reliability, cost to maintain/fix, quietness, smoothness, energy consumption, and space requirements.

Thank you for your advice, Newbie

-- Stephan C. Stille (stillesc@yahoo.com), February 13, 2003

Answers

Based on the current state of the art, I believe a direct plunger oil hydraulic would be the likely best choice. BUT -- there are so many possible variables that it is impossible to assess them all in this format.

You need the help of a qualified consultant or at the very least, the assistance of a irst class elevator company.

Best of Luck with your project!

-- John Brannon (akaelevman@aol.com), February 13, 2003.

Electric motor drive v hydraulic powered

( Hydraulic) That will be your best bet for what you are putting it into. Do not go with a major brand like Kone, Otis, Shindler, etc. if you go with anything you should go with a company that will put in an open source type. Like Motion control, Virginia control, etc. that way you can have Service Company work and maintain your elevator and shop around for a good service price.

Spend and save later buy putting in a couple of things. 1. Oil collector and return pump. 2. LED lamps in all push buttons and position indicators. ( stay away from printed position circuit boards with the fancy stuff. They go bad, and you’ll pay a lot for replacements). 3. Vandal resistant buttons. ( they last longer ) 4. Be sure that you get a copy of all prints. Wire hookups, and KEYS. 5. Submerged pump for sound isolation. 6. Insulate the machine room walls for sound and keep the room cool.

-- P.J. (mrelevator@hotmail.com), February 15, 2003.

Thanks and a follow up question

Thank you for your advice. How does the hydraulic SYSTEM compare with respect to durability of parts and cost of their replacement?

-- (stillesc@yahoo.com), February 15, 2003.

not a hydraulic

I know every person has there own opinion but i would stay as far away from hydraulic lifts as possible. traction lifts are the way to go. as a customer u should know that hydraulic lifts have a certain amount of starts per hour. i find them to be noiser and more problematic as well, compared with a decent traction lift. if space is a problem u can purchase wot they call a motor room less lift. all the larger companies have them and u will find that they are cheaper then a hydraulic.the motor and the drive unit are mounted in the shaft and the controller is normally mounted in the foyer on the top floor of the lift. dont b afraid about being "locked" in with the one company. Contracts for these such lift are relatively cheap ne way. you also get the support of a major company. you will find these lifts to be safe (as every lift should be) reliable, cost efficient in all areas (installing, maintaining and energy efficient) and will definetly meet ur space requirements, even better then a hydraulic lift. i suggest u contact a lift company in your area and have a chat with them.

-- phil (phil@hotmail.com), February 16, 2003.

While the weak points he mentions do assert themselves at times, I must respectfully disagree with Phil's advice to avoid hydraulic elevators altogether. If they are properly applied, hydraulic elevators are eminently satisfactory. They are DECIDEDLY less costly than traction elevators. Yes, there are "MRL" tractions available these days, but in most applications, they are NOT directly cost competitive with hydraulics. At five or six stops, yes, perhaps, but not at two or three.(Most five or six stop applications would be a misapplication of hydraulics anyway in my opinion).

At this time, better than eight out of ten of the new elevators installed in the US each year are the oil hydraulic type.One would think that this establishes that there must be some merit.

All things equal, traction would be preferable, but all things are seldom equal.

-- John brannon (akaelevman@aol.com), February 16, 2003.

Energy consumption: a 40 HP hydraulic can be replaced by an 8 HP machineroom-less elevator such as the KONE MonoSpace. In addition to 75% energy savings, the electric equipment (main panel, wires, disconnect) will cost less because much smaller. If you have an emergency generator you can also save big on that equipment. KONE doesn't use proprietary equipment to service its elevators. Other big companies do though. Enquire about a usage-based service contract, instead of a fixed-interval one. You may save substantially. Space requirement: in addition to the space taken by the shaft, the controller can be fitted in a closet approximately 48" W x 16" D beside the top landing door. No hydraulic can beat that. Super quiet gearless synchronous AC motor. No gear to wear or to make noise. Smooth and accurate levelling every time. No lubrication needed, no pollution. Hydraulics can have problems if the machine room is too hot (caused by too many starts usually) or too cold (oil less viscous => bad levelling). Oil leaks are polluting and smelling.

-- Jean (j.laro@sympatico.ca), February 18, 2003.

With all due respect, Jean, your arguments as to QUALITY have merit, but then COST rears its' ugly head.

A typical 2/3 stop hydraulic of 2500# capacity would require about 25 HP.

For a typical 2/3 stop traction to require only 8 HP, it would have to be counterweighted 50% and operate at 100% efficiency. The heavy counterwighting would result in near maximum HP being required more of the time in both directions. The hydro would use only a small percentage of its available HP going up under typical loads, and, of course, none at all coming down.

Therefore, 75% power savings is not realistic (nor is 100% efficiency). Even if it were, it would take a long time to make up the typical cost differential.

ANY elevator can experience problems if its' machinery is exposed to temperature extremes.Odor problems with hydraulics result from getting the oil (and usually the wrong type of oil) too hot. There should not be enough leakage from a quality system to be worthy of concern.

The fact is that properly applied (short rise, light to moderate use) a quality oil hydraulic will provide eminently satisfactory service (including smooth accurate leveling every time)for MUCH less initial cost. In such service, either type should last indefinitely.

The proof of the pudding is to price both, including maintenance contract costs, and compare.

-- John Brannon (akaelevman@aol.com), February 19, 2003.

cost

last time i asked (yesterday) the mrl from schindler was cheaper then a hydraulic, even on a 2/3 stop. i hope we have seen the last few hydro's goin in for ever.

-- phil (phil@hotmail.com), February 20, 2003.

Pricing

I've narrowed my choices down to 2; the Kone Monospace and the Schindler Smart (MRL). The Kone quote is cheaper than all quotes and smokes the comparable Otis hydraulic, let alone the Otis MRL; I am still waiting to hear from Schindler, but the "ballpark" figure they gave me beat both Otis models I'm looking at (the Otis Compact Hydraulic and the MRL), though not by much. Schindler seems to have the shortest lead-time, which is attractive. I am leaning towards Kone, but I'm a little wary of their ability to perform adequate service; in my area, there is 1 Kone technician maintaining approx 100 elevators per month. They say they are hiring (expanding) in the area. How concerned should I be?

-- stephan (stillesc@yahoo.com), February 20, 2003.

good man

im glad u came about there and r steering away from the hydraulics. with ur question about service and the man having 100 units. with a well established company like kone or schindler u will find that service will be provided per the contract and if they dont u have the luxury of goin up the ladder to the area managers and so on with ur complaint which im sure will be deal with swiftly. i hope it never gets that way, but with big companies when u complain they get dealt with. "a noisy wheels gets oil" if u know what i mean. like i said i hope it never gets that way which i dont think it will anyway. good luck and keep us posted! cheers

-- phil (Phil@hotmail.com), February 21, 2003.

Mr.Stiles,

elevators are like good appliances.You can buy One or many .spend good money now and not alot later...,some facts..the hydro elevators are becoming a thing of the past..due to impacts on the environment high costs of drilling etc.products that are out ther...Kone has ameco disk unit not bad but the company is not doin well...next schindler has a unit but there software has why too many bugs besides they will be sold this year or the next...if your really interested email me i'll send you some info..good luck

-- dan w (danotis@aol.com), March 05, 2003.

sold?

wot do u mean schindler will b sold Mr stiles. im an employee and i havent heard ne thing. do u mean in a country of area???? please explain.

-- phil (phil@hotmail.com), March 06, 2003.

Gen2™ The Elevator Re-imagined The Gen2™ system combines 21st century technologies and materials to provide 21st century solutions: More usable building space. Timesaving installation. Energy efficiency. Environmental protection. Design flexibility. Enhanced safety systems.

Space Saving, Energy-Efficient, Clean The Gen2 system requires no machine room - the mechanism is at the top of the shaft. Lightweight, flexible, polyurethane steel belts permit the use of an energy-efficient machine.

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Clean, Efficient, Better for the Environment The Gen2 hoist stays clean as the belts and the gearless machine (which has permanently sealed bearings) require no oil. The synchronous permanent-magnet machine, with a radial air gap, is as much as 50% more efficient than a conventional geared machine.

The Gen2 systems electro-magnetic filter eliminated interference with the buildings other electrical system.

Superior Ride Comfort The Gen2 system is remarkably quiet and comfortable. The compact gearless machine,flexible belts on a small sheave and specially designed machine brake making for a quiet ride. No detail was left to chance. hope that helps..Dan

-- Dan w (Danotis@aol.com), March 10, 2003.

hellow

-- jesica Lopez Ramirez (jesi18@msn.com), January 05, 2005.