if married by minister now, can you get married in the Catholic Church later?

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HI, I have a question concerning getting married in the Catholic church. It is a long story but I will make it short. My future sister-in-law was married once before in the Catholic church. She is now divorced and is about to marry my brother. She did not get the divorced ok'd by the church so they cannot marry in the Catholic church right now. If they get married by a minister now, can they get married in the Catholic church later once she gets everything cleared up? Thanks! Jen

-- Jen Hunt (jenzep@aol.com), February 20, 2003

Answers

Response to if married by minister now, can you get married in the Catholic church later?

The Church does not actually ok a divorce. The Church does not regognize divorce at all, under any circumstances. However, the Church will, at her request, investigate the circumstances of her original marriage, to determine whether or not it met all the requirements of a valid marriage. If for some reason it did not, the Church will issue a decree of nulity, a statement that a valid marriage did not exist, in which case she is free to marry in the Church. If the Church determines that the original marriage was valid, then she will never be free to marry in the Catholic Church, unless her husband dies.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 20, 2003.

Response to if married by minister now, can you get married in the Catholic church later?

This is a minor point of correction. I think that Paul Paul.Cyp@cox.net)'s statement about "If the Church determines that the original marriage was valid" is strictly speaking inaccurate.

Does not a Church Marriage Tribunal only issue a Decree of Nullity (if it determines the required conditions for validity were not met at the time of the start of the Marriage)? It never actually determines that a marriage was valid - that is the default assumption. If sufficient evidence is not produced to refute it, there just should be no Decree of Nullity.

However, if later more evidence is available, cannot the case be considered again? There is no formal "Decree of Validity" to be reversed just the usual presumption in favor of the bond.

-- Edward Pothier (EdwardPothier@aol.com), February 20, 2003.


Response to if married by minister now, can you get married in the Catholic church later?

Thanks Edward, I think you understand me.

-- John (JohnV5@aol.com), February 20, 2003.

Response to if married by minister now, can you get married in the Catholic church later?

Dear Edward,

You are correct in saying that validity is the default assumption, that is to say before any determination is made. But once a determination is made, it is equally correct to say that the Church has made a determination of invalidity, or a determination of validity. Can you determine one without determining the other? If the Church determines that the required conditions for validity were not met at the time of the start of the Marriage, then a determination of invalidity has been made. If the Church determines that the required conditions for validity WERE met at the time of the start of the Marriage, then a determination of validity has been made.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 20, 2003.


Response to if married by minister now, can you get married in the Catholic church later?

Dear Edward,

Having reread your last post a bit more carefully - yes, of course that is technically correct. There is no absolute determination of validity AS SUCH, though denial of a determination of invalidity is equivalent to a determination of validity at that time. You are correct though, that additional evidence could result in a reversal of that finding. Technically, additional evidence could also overturn a finding of invalidity, but that is highly unlikely since no-one who have cause to pursue such a determination.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 20, 2003.



Response to if married by minister now, can you get married in the Catholic church later?

Jen -- Your sister-in-law, if her marriage has not been anulled by the Church is STILL considered as married in the eyes of the Church as the Church does not recognize civil divorce.

This is how it goes: when a couple marries in ANY church in the US -- be it Catholic or Protestant, the clergyman is conducting both the Civil aspect of the ceremony AND the religious! That is why at some point you hear the words from the minister, "by the power invested in me by the state of...."

In many other countries, the two MUST be separate. France for example requires couples to be married civilly in a marriage hall and then the couple goes to the church for the religious ceremony.

Now divorce only breaks the civil aspect. In a Catholic marriage, there is still the obligation of the Sacrament that your sister-in- law had asked the church for. Without an anullment, that union is STILL binding on her. Better she start the anullment process ASAP and live in a brother/sister relationship with your brother until the anulment is final!

-- Cynthia Trainque (cltrainque@yahoo.com), February 28, 2003.


Response to if married by minister now, can you get married in the Catholic church later?

Cynthia Trainque (cltrainque@yahoo.com), February 28, 2003 wrote:

"ASAP and live in a brother/sister relationship with your brother until the anulment is final!"

I have a question with regards to what Ms. Trainque wrote, this being: "brother/sister relationship". How is it possible for two people who love each other have this type of relationship? I will expand further. Will they be living under the same roof? If they do live under the same roof, will they have separate bedrooms? I sort of question when someone mentions to me: "we have a brother/sister relationship". This was mentioned to me by a friend who has been married for a long time (married by the Catholic Church); in this particular case, they share the same roof, the same bed, they disrobe in front of one another but at the same time the relationship is one of "indifference" and they view and say that their relationship is one of "brother/sister". I have difficulty understanding this concept. I, myself, was raised in the Catholic religion, however, I am not a practicing Catholic. From the standpoint of relationships, or perhaps it has to do with the way I was raised, if two people meet, love each other and decide to get married, I strongly feel that it should be "until death do us part" and this phrase is part of the marriage vows, I think, in any religion. To marry or not to marry, I feel is not one of the easiest decisions to make. I believe two people must be very aware that their love is so great that they want to share the rest of their lives together. And to be so sure and cognizant of this fact so that they never have any regrets as to their decision and never end up in divorce court. I believe difficulties will arise in any type of relationships; perhaps difficulties could be more prevalent in a marriage since there is could be more sharing, understanding, tolerance, etc. of one another. I believe husbands/wives are there to support one another through thick and thin, no matter what. I am not sure if I am making myself clear. Thank you for your patience and understanding in reading this message.

-- Susana Molinos (susanamolinos@yahoo.com), April 12, 2003.


Response to if married by minister now, can you get married in the Catholic church later?

Jmj
Hello, Susana.

You wrote: "I have a question with regards to what Ms. Trainque wrote, this being: 'brother/sister relationship.' How is it possible for two people who love each other have this type of relationship?"

Susana, please re-read the opening message from Jen Hunt. She speaks of a woman who is "about to marry [her] brother." I want to assume that they are living separately now (as they should be) and living chastely. Other than the element of romatic love that may be present, a pure relationship like that would be equivalent to a "brother/sister relationship" -- i.e., no sexual activity.

You continued: "Will they be living under the same roof? If they do live under the same roof, will they have separate bedrooms?"

Since Jen's brother and his friend are not yet married, they should not be "under the same roof." But let us assume that they are "cohabiting" already -- living "under the same roof" -- before marriage. In that case, they should indeed begin now to have "separate bedrooms" until the woman receives a Declaration of Nullity concerning her first attempt to marry. [If she learns that no such Declaration can be issued, then the couple would have to go their separate ways until the woman's husband dies.]

Susana, you mentioned the case of a friend who claims to "have a brother/sister relationship" despite sharing the same bed, etc.. He says that "the relationship is one of 'indifference'". I agree with you that this is hard to picture and accept, but I do believe that it is possible. A relationship really can break down to this extent.

You also wrote: "I, myself, was raised in the Catholic religion, however, I am not a practicing Catholic."

Since you are visiting a Catholic discussion forum, I hope that you will not be surprised when I say that your situation is very unfortunate and saddening to me. I will pray that you have come to visit at the prompting of the Holy Spirit, who surely desires that you become a practicing Catholic again. (I was once in your very shoes, but returned to the active practice of the faith.) Please visit the forum often, reading and asking questions. This will help you, I'm sure.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 15, 2003.


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