Generosity -- Things you need to know

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THERE FOLLOWS AN EXCHANGE WHICH EXPOSES ONE OF THE MANY MYTHS ABOUT THE GENEROSITY OF PROTESTANT USA. THE BASIC PROPOSITION WAS THAT THE US IS THE WORLD BIGGEST CHARITY DONOR. THE STARK CONCLUSION IS THAT IT IS THE DEVELOPED WORLD'S MOST MISERLY DONOR. THIS IS ACCEPTED BY THE DEFENDER OF THE USA. DETAILS FOLLOW:

We HAVE fed Ethiopia and we are spending billions to help people with AIDS in Africa... we are currently the single largest donor of food aid to North Korea - even while they threaten us! We've done more for 3rd world countries in terms of real, concrete humanitarian relief aid and support than every other UN agency combined. Only the Catholic Church does more...although Catholic Charities does manage 130 million in USAID for Africa...

-- Joe (Joestong@yahoo.com), March 11, 2003.

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That's an interesting point about North Korea, Joe. That's called biting the hand that feeds, literally !

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), March 11, 2003.

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before we get carried away here, the US gives the least (out of all the industrialized) countries, in proportion to its resources, to foreign aid. it only spends 0.1% of GDP, others pay ten or more times as much. The US budget for foreign aid is c.$10 billion, but it hasn't been increased for 10 years. this is about $3 per head of US population, the war in Iraq is expected to cost > $200 per head.

-- Well Done Darryl (Well.Done@Darryl.org), March 12, 2003.

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Thanks Daryl. You're arguing percentages and I'm arguing actual numbers. Name me one other country that spends $10 billion on foreign assistance? Secondly, as "America" is always judged not just as a government but also as civilization - so we are collectively to blame for "slavery" and for pornography, etc. even though alot if not most of "us" were and are agaist both... we also have to tally up how many millions if not billions of dollars in PRIVATE non-profit aid is being spent on the 3rd world by generous American citizens.

I don't recall any other nation's school children donating funds to help their Afgani counterparts. Maybe you do.

We are a generous people. Could we do more? Sure! But in real terms we are already giving more real dollars than any other country to these poor nations.

Question: in 1700 the 13 colonies were "3rd world" hovels... a mere 100 years later they became an independent nation - not needing a UN, and international "aid" to survive the winter. Why is that so? Could it possibly be that "wealth" is not mined out of the ground and then shared? Could "wealth" possibly be CREATED domestically by peaceful and hard working people?

In other words, the US is not the only place on earth where people can be responsible for themselves! How come WE ARE ALWAYS TO BLAME for some other country's bad government or backward economy, or 13th century civilization or religious nuts? Don't foreigners have free will? What happens when they immigrate here?

Could it possibly be that we are rich and prosperous because of our freedom, our limited government, the culture of generosity and tolerance...and more than tolerance, of charity and volunteerism, freedom of association and giving?

I'm amazed that no one thinks what we have here can be duplicated elsewhere! America is great because of our civilized beliefs in order, law, respect, etc. - not to say we're not fighting a fierce "culture war" among ourselves (right vs left)... but by and large our values and civic virtues allow all these 287 million people to convert inert matter into useful commondities, wealth, services...

If you think the Muslims are incapable of democracy or of a vibrant economy - then what does that say about your sense of humanity being one single family?

-- Joe (Joestong@yahoo.com), March 12, 2003.

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Thanks Daryl. You're arguing percentages and I'm arguing actual numbers. **** US citizens are the meanest when it comes to alms giving (and the most generous when it comes to arms giving, btw). given that God's word is directed at the individual, then there is a clear case that the correct way to rank-order (as opposed to tank-order) generosity is per capita.

Name me one other country that spends $10 billion on foreign assistance?

*** Japan. it gave 13 billion in 2000. in 2001 it was just shy of 10 billion. as you will know the Japanese economy (and GDP) is contracting -- and moreover its currency really devalued a few years ago -- so that is not a unsurprising trend. what is surprising is that Japan was hitherto giving more in "number" terms than the US -- it has a much smaller population than the US!

Secondly, as "America" is always judged not just as a government but also as civilization - so we are collectively to blame for "slavery" and for pornography, etc. even though alot if not most of "us" were and are agaist both... we also have to tally up how many millions if not billions of dollars in PRIVATE non-profit aid is being spent on the 3rd world by generous American citizens.

**** this is a non-sequitur. where is it alleged that the US is "collectively to blame for "slavery" and for pornography, etc."???

I don't recall any other nation's school children donating funds to help their Afgani counterparts. Maybe you do.

**** i think that you will find that such generous acts were performed all over the world. you might find some evidence of this on the www. the US most certainly doesnot have a monopoly on alms giving, nor is it actally that good at it -- see above.

We are a generous people.

**** yes, but in relative terms, simply not true -- see above

Could we do more? Sure!

**** agreed.

But in real terms we are already giving more real dollars than any other country to these poor nations.

*** see above. and in how many cases are strings attached. is it really "giving"??

Question: in 1700 the 13 colonies were "3rd world" hovels... a mere 100 years later they became an independent nation - not needing a UN, and international "aid" to survive the winter. Why is that so?

**** uummm, non-sequitur. but anyway .... might have something to do with the discovery of a New World with great pastures, natural resources, a young population (old people less liley to survive the trip over the ocean). basic economic forces.

Could it possibly be that "wealth" is not mined out of the ground and then shared? Could "wealth" possibly be CREATED domestically by peaceful and hard working people?

******** ummmmmm, think about the effect of war in Europe. that is the real reason for the wealth gap. the US did not have to pay for a complete recontsruction. the US' relative wealth is, by historical standards, a recent thing.

PS don't forget that these same "peaceful and hard working people" all but annihilated the indigeneous peoples of America; and that the civil war was amongst the most bloody on record.

PPS don't forget the US' use of Nazi scientists. very significant economic factor, btw.

In other words, the US is not the only place on earth where people can be responsible for themselves!

*** non-sequitur. but also true.

How come WE ARE ALWAYS TO BLAME for some other country's bad government or backward economy, or 13th century civilization or religious nuts? Don't foreigners have free will?

**** where is this alleged?

What happens when they immigrate here?

Could it possibly be that we are rich and prosperous because of our freedom, our limited government, the culture of generosity and tolerance...

**** see above

and more than tolerance, of charity and volunteerism, freedom of association and giving?

**** see above

I'm amazed that no one thinks what we have here can be duplicated elsewhere!

*** that may be precisely one of the great worries -- that you want to impose a liberal culture in foreign lands. why does the US have such obesity issues, why is everyone running to a shrink, why do you have schools shot up by young students, why do you need to be rich to get into politics, why is the US the bastion of liberal and fundamental Protestantism, why .......do i need to go on??

America is great because of our civilized beliefs in order, law, respect, etc. - not to say we're not fighting a fierce "culture war" among ourselves (right vs left)

**** see above. if yoiu recognise domestic "culture", you must be capable of recognising foreign culture.

... but by and large our values and civic virtues allow all these 287 million people to convert inert matter into useful commondities, wealth, services...

**** despite yourself, maybe

If you think the Muslims are incapable of democracy or of a vibrant economy - then what does that say about your sense of humanity being one single family?

***** where is this alleged?? you said this.

-- Well Done Darryl (Well.Done@Darryl.org), March 12, 2003.

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**** US citizens are the meanest when it comes to alms giving (and the most generous when it comes to arms giving, btw). given that God's word is directed at the individual, then there is a clear case that the correct way to rank-order (as opposed to tank-order) generosity is per capita. ++++ What numbers are you looking at? UN figures?

*** Japan. +++ How much of that $10 billion was given by generous Japanese individuals rather than Banks?

Secondly, as "America" is always judged not just as a government but also as civilization - so we are collectively to blame for "slavery" and for pornography, etc. even though alot if not most of "us" were and are agaist both... we also have to tally up how many millions if not billions of dollars in PRIVATE non-profit aid is being spent on the 3rd world by generous American citizens.

**** this is a non-sequitur. ++++ We are talking about the generosity of Americans, not just the US Government. Now, alot of people are arguing that the mess in the world is caused not just by the US government or CIA etc, but by US Cultural Imperialism, McDonalds, etc. i.e. Americans in general. Thus the Terrorists have targetted civilian skyscrapers and airplanes, and have promised more civilian casualties not as "collateral damage" but as the primary goal of violence. Yet these "targets" are among the most generous people on earth.

I don't recall any other nation's school children donating funds to help their Afgani counterparts. Maybe you do.

**** i think that you will find that such generous acts were performed all over the world. you might find some evidence of this on the www. the US most certainly doesnot have a monopoly on alms giving, nor is it actally that good at it -- see above.

++++ The overwhelming number of NGOs and foreign charities raise their funds from the US. Ditto for all those Muslim charities.

Question: in 1700 the 13 colonies were "3rd world" hovels... a mere 100 years later they became an independent nation - not needing a UN, and international "aid" to survive the winter. Why is that so?

**** uummm, non-sequitur.

Look here's the syllogism for you:

Third World Countries are poor. America is rich. America is to blame for their poverty

My syllogism was:

America was a poor wilderness With only their own work as investment immigrants produced wealth America is now vastly wealthy.

ergo, it appears that it was dedicated, organized, civil work that turned a wilderness into a rich land.

Your "explanations" for a rich America don't prove anything. Every country on earth has the essential elements of riches: human ingenuity. Japan has virtually no natural resources, yet when the US arrived to trade with them in 1856, they were a highly organized civilization... and by hard work and social discipline were able to even rebuild from near total industrial annihilation after WWII...

Could it possibly be that "wealth" is not mined out of the ground and then shared? Could "wealth" possibly be CREATED domestically by peaceful and hard working people?

******** ummmmmm, think about the effect of war in Europe. that is the real reason for the wealth gap. the US did not have to pay for a complete recontsruction. the US' relative wealth is, by historical standards, a recent thing. ++++ Your comments about the US Civil war and the rise of Nazi Germany show this argument to be wrong: a nation can totally turn things around economically in one generation if they are committed to organized, civil, and cooperative national efforts.

PS don't forget that these same "peaceful and hard working people" all but annihilated the indigeneous peoples of America; and that the civil war was amongst the most bloody on record.

+++ I agree about the Civil War. But there are still American Indians today... not that they weren't affected, of course they were, and I too have read and believe Alexis de Tocqueville's 1835 assessment of their plight...but be that as it may, there are still indian reservations throughout the country. Fact is, North America was largely unpopulated even with the Indians... because of their cultural level of advancement they never did - not in 15,000 years use land and resources as the Europeans did.

PPS don't forget the US' use of Nazi scientists. very significant economic factor, btw.

+++ No, except in the rocket and bomb projects, the Nazis didn't help our economic engine all. Sorry. They were'nt THAT much of a "Master race"!

In other words, the US is not the only place on earth where people can be responsible for themselves!

*** non-sequitur. but also true.

How come WE ARE ALWAYS TO BLAME for some other country's bad government or backward economy, or 13th century civilization or religious nuts? Don't foreigners have free will?

**** where is this alleged? ++++ it's alleged that the world is poor because America is rich.

What happens when they immigrate here?

Could it possibly be that we are rich and prosperous because of our freedom, our limited government, the culture of generosity and tolerance...

*** that may be precisely one of the great worries -- that you want to impose a liberal culture in foreign lands. why does the US have such obesity issues, why is everyone running to a shrink, why do you have schools shot up by young students, why do you need to be rich to get into politics, why is the US the bastion of liberal and fundamental Protestantism, why .......do i need to go on??

America is great because of our civilized beliefs in order, law, respect, etc. - not to say we're not fighting a fierce "culture war" among ourselves (right vs left)

**** see above. if yoiu recognise domestic "culture", you must be capable of recognising foreign culture.

... but by and large our values and civic virtues allow all these 287 million people to convert inert matter into useful commondities, wealth, services...

**** despite yourself, maybe

If you think the Muslims are incapable of democracy or of a vibrant economy - then what does that say about your sense of humanity being one single family?

-- Joe (Joestong@yahoo.com), March 12, 2003

-- Well Done Darryl (Well.Done@Darryl.org), March 12, 2003

Answers



-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 12, 2003.

Name me one other country that spends $10 billion on foreign assistance?

*** Japan. it gave 13 billion in 2000. in 2001 it was just shy of 10 billion. as you will know the Japanese economy (and GDP) is contracting -- and moreover its currency really devalued a few years ago -- so that is not a unsurprising trend. what is surprising is that Japan was hitherto giving more in "number" terms than the US -- it has a much smaller population than the US!

THIS ALL MAKES SENSE TO ME WE NEED TO DO A LOT LOT MORE FOLKS.

-- I like it!!!! (peeling.the@onion.gov), March 13, 2003.


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