Okay, I have a few questions about marriage and divorce.

1. Why is it that the church recognizes a civil marriage and deems it must be annulled before that person can marry in the church, but on the other hand if you get married in a civil ceremony (and not in a church) you are considered to be sinning if you consummate that marriage because you're not married in the eyes of the church?

2. If I am currently divorced (which I am) and have not recieved an annullment (which I haven't), is it true that I should not be entering in another serious relationship with another and even considering remarriage?

3. When I do get an anullment, it essential means that there was never a marriage in the first place. Since my case wil be a no brainer for the tribunal... married young, no children, short marriage, obvious mistake... the church will (basically)say that there never was a marriage. So in a sense, since there never was a marriage, I should be able to continue on as if I was never married in the mean time. Would this be correct? Why or why not?

4. I would appreciate anyone who is going to give me advice on this not judging me. I read so much of that on this forum. There are a few of you that seem to act holier than Mother Theresa and I'd appreciate it if you saved your judgemental thoughts for yourself.

When a person is questioning his/her faith, it is this conisending type of attitude that drives them further away from the church.

-- I Ben Thinking (curious@hotmial.com), March 14, 2003

Answers

Response to About marraige/divorce...

Why is it that the church recognizes a civil marriage? because marriage is marriage, no matter who your are, no matter what color your skin is, no matter if it was a preist preacher or even a judge who read the vows to you, your the the one that said them and made them with your wife and GOD said he holds you to your vows untill death (by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage." Rom.7:2 )("A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, ...." 1 Cor.7:39 .. catholics say thay dont believe in divorce because bible speakes against it, so thay make up another word for divorce called annulement and thay say the bible does not say anything againest annulement, "of corse not", the bible dont even say anything about annulement in fact the bible dont even have annulement in it (because it is just another word for divorce)

(hebrews chapter 13 verse 4 "Marriage is honourable in all and the bed undefiled:)(1st Corinthians Chapter 6 verse 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. so then god recognized a marriage with a harlot and joined them together and the two becoume one flesh.)(is a harlot not a sinner) so what makes people think that GOD dont see all things, remember your marriage vows are befor GOD not just to GOD thay are to your wife, so how dare people say to GOD i never really married that person. then GOD may say it might not have been the one i would have chosen for you, but he give you free will to choose who you want, dont try to lie to GOD and tell hem you didnt really marry that person if it dont work out because he sees the vows you made to her

(here is a good pairable) a father has two sons one son sales a car to the other brother 3 weeks later he brings the car back and says i dont want the car it just is not the car i was looking for it broke down give me my money back i didnt realy buy the car from you anyway so the two brothers go to the father for advise, and the fathers advise was to the one that bought the car: you bought the car so honor your word :but father the car broke down it has to many things wrong with it i did not look it over good enouf :i am your father i was here all along and you did not ask for my advise i would not have told you it was not the car for you but your word is your word it is your car now and now that you are asking for my help we can fix this car and it will (after a little work) be perfect for you but if you dont listen to my advise and turn your back on me again i shall turn my back on you untill you say your sory (ask for forgiveness)and listen to my advise (repent)now lets make that car work you you

this is what i wrote to someone else it may be helpful

do you really want the truth or do you just want someone to tell you everything will be alright because the bible is truth.. so i would like to give you hope but also give you truth.. it has been said that some of the things i say is aginest the catholic church and that is not my intentions at all, so i will not answer your question but i will let the bible do it.. remember this is directly out of the bible word for word buy the Apostle Paul and is not my opion but Gods, so if any argue with what you are about to read their argument is not with me but with GOD. "Haven't you read, he replied, that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female, and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together. lET MAN NOT separate." Matth.19:4-6

"It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail." "Anyone who DIVORCES his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery." Luke16:18 "Anyone who DIVORCES his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." Mark.10:11-12

by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage." Rom.7:2 "A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, ...." 1 Cor.7:39

"To the married I give this command ( not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must NOT divorce his wife." 1 Cor.7:10-11

"The Lord is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant. Has not the Lord made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his." "So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth. I hate divorce, says the Lord." Mal.2:14-16

-- Jason Kennon (jasonkennon@yahoo.com), March 14, 2003.

Response to About marraige/divorce...

Scripturally speaking...Jason has part of the truth, well most of it, with the exception of ANNULMENT. Precisely because the Church holds so strongly to the indissolubility of marriage, it must face the question of who is married. Precisely because it believes that there is a content to marriage, it can sometimes declare that people who have been through a wedding ceremony are not married. Annulment means that despite appearances and the couples good faith, they have never really been married, and each of them is therefore now free to get married, unless a prohibition is attached to the sencence or decree of nullity. There is a process that deems whether or not the marriage was, for example, entered into freely or not. The process is in place to make sure that there were no impediments (blocks) to marriage in the event of separation. Annulment doesn't mean divorce, it means that the marriage never took place SACRAMENTALLY. Yes the wedding happened but there was no marriage. Let's begin with your questions: 1. The necessity of a marriage is free consent, given and received, because of the free will that God gave to us...when you use your free will, without impediment, the vows that are exchanged, whether in a jp's office or backyard, or in the church, constitutes marriage. It is NOT a sin if you get married outside of the Catholic Church! The Church would prefer that a couple to be married in the Church surrounded by the family and friends (the church community=body of Christ) so that with the help of Christ, their marriage would be blessed and aided by the grace that Christ desires to give his people. Married people are asked to try to reflect the love shown in their family...like that of the love that God has for His people. 2. Code of Canon Law #1134 From a valid marriage there arises between the spouses a bond that is by its nature, perpetual and exclusive. Jason has given some very good scriptural references to the indissoluability of marriage (that the Catholic Church teaches). Your vows exchanged in the first marriage are supposed to be THE covenant with spouse before our Holy God. Richer or poorer, sickness or health, for better or for worse. Remember those? VOWS = MARRIAGE ...Jesus tells us that marriage is for life, marriage is indissoluable. According to Ezekial 18, I must let you know that You should abstain from extra marital relationships until an annulment can be procured proving that your previous marriage was in fact, not valid. 3. No one is promised annulment. Living this way is not Christian and it doesn't follow Christ's example. This is absolute objective truth, outside of your situation and therefore not a judgement on your current situation. If an impediment to a previous marriage cannot be proven, then one commits adultery! If you want an annulment, start the process by simply phoning the tribunal in your area ASAP (if you would like to remarry). Or see your pastor and he can be of advice. Remember, if one is "married" even though the relationship is over, a relationship with another or marriage with another spouse is not a good idea (In Jesus' words...adultery). God always blesses the patient person. Only sanctity carries weight in the eyes of God. If you seek to please God then you will see the workings of God's grace to bring about truth and goodness for thie unfortunate and uncomfortable situation. Also, entering into another marriage, without a previous annulment, automatically invalidates the next marriage. See code of canon law #1085 4. I am concerned for your soul most of all. This information is true to the questions you ask. Although they may be answers that you may not want to hear, it is a starting place. Get your local pastor to help you begin the annulment process and pray for God's assistance. Remember knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

-- patrick farley (Pfarley@saintmeinrad.edu), March 15, 2003.

Response to About marraige/divorce...

Jmj
Hello, "I Ben Thinking" (IBT) and Patrick.

Patrick, when composing a long message, please break it up into paragraphs. You cannot accomplish this simply by hitting the "Enter" key once. You must hit the enter key twice, leaving a one-line gap in this "Answer" box. (Another way to cause a break to a new paragraph is to type a "p" between "<" and ">".

Now, IBT, I'd like to go through your questions. I do agree with almost everything that Patrick has told you, but I believe that he was seriously mistaken about at least one thing. I will probably approach a couple of things a bit differently from Patrick. [Please disregard the anti-Catholic comments in Jason's message.]

"1. Why is it that the church recognizes a civil marriage and deems it must be annulled before that person can marry in the church, but on the other hand if you get married in a civil ceremony (and not in a church) you are considered to be sinning if you consummate that marriage because you're not married in the eyes of the church?"

It is not true that the Catholic Church recognizes every civil-ceremony marriage, but only those entered into by two people who are NOT Catholic. According to the disciplinary marriage laws of the Church, Catholics must ordinarily follow what is called "canonical form," which includes being married in a Catholic celebration of the Sacrament of Marriage. However, non-Catholics are not bound by Canon Law and canonical form, so they are able validly to marry in a civil ceremony.

If both of the people are Catholic, they cannot marry in a civil ceremony. If one of the two is Catholic, and if the other one insists on not getting married in a religious ceremony, the Catholic may be able to get the bishop's permission to marry in a civil ceremony. But without getting such permission, the Catholic cannot enter into a valid marriage by civil ceremony. That is why Patrick was wrong to say this to you, without qualifications: "It is NOT a sin if you get married outside of the Catholic Church!" If one is a Catholic, indeed it IS a sin of disobedience to do this, and it then leads to further sins of adultery or fornication.

"2. If I am currently divorced (which I am) and have not received an annullment (which I haven't), is it true that I should not be entering in another serious relationship with another and even considering remarriage?"

Yes, it is true. The reason is that you may now be married in God's eyes. As Catholics, we do not recognize a divorce as being capable of ending a valid marriage. Only the death of a spouse ends a valid marriage. Divorce is merely a means of formal, civil separation. Therefore, since a divorced Catholic may still be married, he cannot enter into a dating relationship (much less an engagement) without first obtaining a Declaration of Nullity from a Church tribunal. A divorced Catholic can have, with the opposite sex, only those kinds of platonic friendships that he knew were permissible on his wedding day.

"3. When I do get an anullment, it essentialy means that there was never a marriage in the first place. Since my case will be a no brainer for the tribunal... married young, no children, short marriage, obvious mistake... the church will (basically)say that there never was a marriage. So in a sense, since there never was a marriage, I should be able to continue on as if I was never married in the mean time. Would this be correct? Why or why not?" Let us pray for each other, IBT.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 16, 2003.

Response to About marraige/divorce...

Oops! I made a formatting error and lost my answer to your third question. Let's try that again ...

"3. When I do get an anullment, it essentialy means that there was never a marriage in the first place. Since my case will be a no brainer for the tribunal... married young, no children, short marriage, obvious mistake... the church will (basically)say that there never was a marriage. So in a sense, since there never was a marriage, I should be able to continue on as if I was never married in the mean time. Would this be correct? Why or why not?"

It would be very wise for you not to judge your own case, IBT. It would be very painful to presume certain things, only to learn later that the tribunal had decided differently. The criteria used by the tribunal are many and complex, and you are not familiar with all of them, so I strongly urge you to humbly trust the Holy Spirit to help the tribunal to do what is right and just. The things you mentioned ("married young, no children, short marriage, obvious mistake") are not automatically "grounds" for a Declaration of Nullity. The key is whether or not there was an obstacle to the two partners giving free, full, valid consent to each other on the wedding day. You and I are not able to determine that on our own, but the tribunal will be able to determine it, if they are given good and complete testimony about the facts. You will have to provide written testimony, so you need to be truthful and avoid omitting anything.

Let us pray for each other, IBT.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 16, 2003.

Response to About marraige/divorce...

John Getting married outside the Church for Catholics isn't the normal or preferred thing to do, objectively speaking it is not a sin. Now, on a case by case, subjectively speaking; as to why Christians don't want to be married in the Church (or refuse to be married in the Church) may involve a sin. But remember, sin has to do with knowledge of the act too. Without full knowledge of what one is doing, then it may not be a sin...

-- patrick (Patrick@truth.com), March 16, 2003.

Response to About marraige/divorce...

Catholics "getting married" outside the Church is at the very least a sin of disobedience to the authority of the Church, which Jesus indicated is His own authority ("he who hears you hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me"). But apart from the question of the sinfulness of the actual "wedding", any subsequent sexual union between the couple would objectively constitute fornication, while any reception of the Eucharist while in an ongoing, unrepented state of overt illicit cohabitation would constitute sacrilege.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 16, 2003.

Response to About marraige/divorce...

Jmj

Thank you, Paul.
Maybe now that Patrick has the facts from both you (a deacon) and me, he will realize that he has been mistaken on this subject.

Two Catholics who go through a civil wedding ceremony are not actually married. Chances are about 99-to-1 that they know that they are not allowed to do this, so they almost certainly commit a sin of disobedience (probably followed by fornication).

Patrick, I asked you a couple of questions on another thread, but you didn't answer me. Perhaps you didn't see my message. Here they are again -- though I realize that you are not obliged to answer them:
1. Until today, you have been signing off as "patrick farley (Pfarley@saintmeinrad.edu)." Are you a seminarian at St. Meinrad Seminary?
2. If not a seminarian, are you a Benedictine monk at St. Meinrad Archabbey?

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 17, 2003.