Vatican's opinion on War

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I would like to know where the Vatican gets off tellling the Nation that anyone who participates in the war on IRAQ without Global consent will have to answer to GOD!!! First of all I beleive in God, and have faith but who is the Vatican to tell me when I have to answer to God. The war on IRAQ is to protect the people of the world. Where is the Vaticans opinion on when Suddam Hussein has to answer to God about his actionsor is he not included in that statement because he is not declaring war. But for the past 12 years he has been building weapons of mass destruction to take out the innocent lives of the peole who now want to defend their own lives against him. Because we would like to fight for our lives rather than have Suddam take them from us we need to answer to God for that. I have a strong faith but for the Vatican to make the statement they did is absolutely repulsive. I did not see a statement from the Vatican broadcast across CNN when the reports of the priest molesting little boys broke out. There was no report on how they will have to answer to God. No the Vatican tried not to make to much publication about that issue because it directly reflected on the Vatican for entrusting priests to present gods faith to us. That is a grace to God himself. They were and still are being protected rather than publicy denounced by the faith. But for the people who want to protect the innocence of millions of people, the Vatican would rather denounce them. We all answer to God individually, not because the Vatican says so!!!! I would also like to further state that I think it is cowardly for the Vatican to make such statements and not have the email address available for the public for a response. I have always heard the statement "Have Faith", but how can I be expected to have faith when the Vatican does not.

-- Janet Kimball (kimballone@aol.com), March 18, 2003

Answers

Response to Vaticans opinion on War

The quote from the Vatican is:

"Whoever decides that all peaceful means made available by international law have been exhausted, assumes a grave responsibility before God, his conscience and history,"

I don't see how anyone can find a problem with this statement. To choose to go to war, especially in our day, is a grave responsibility. I think George Bush and Tony Blair would agree 100%. The Vatican didn't imply here that this was going to be condemned by God. (In other places they certainly hint towards this, but not here.) And no where is it implied that this responsibility results from any statement from the Vatican. It appears you have significantly misread/misunderstood the statement.

God bless!

-- Hollis (catholic@martinsen.com), March 19, 2003.


Response to Vaticans opinion on War

I agree with Hollis. Whether or not one supports the war, it's always true that everything we do will one day be judged by God. The Vatican was just reminding the leaders of this truth especially in light of the grave consequences of war.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), March 19, 2003.


Response to Vaticans opinion on War

"There are two ways of combating: by discussion or by violence; the first being peculiar to man, the second to wild animals, one should only have recourse to the latter when the former is of no avail."

Henry of Ghent

-- Elvis (elvis@graceland.com), March 20, 2003.


Response to Vaticans opinion on War

Everyone interested in the subject of the conflict in Iraq and the morality of the coalition's actions should read Joe Stong's masterful message posted on March 21 on this thread.

JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 24, 2003.


Response to Vaticans opinion on War

U.S. officials say the invasion of Iraq is a “preventive war,” and a just war. But the claim that the invasion constitutes a just war is contradicted by the Pope and Vatican officials. Archbishop Martino, speaking in his capacity as president of the Vatican office of Justice and Peace, has said that a preventive war can not be a just war, that a preventive war is specifically excluded “from the definition of” a just war. Cardinal Pio Laghi has visited President Bush and has personally suggested to him that there remain other measures which can be tried in an attempt to resolve problems with Iraq (measures which, according to the Just War doctrine, must be taken before the U.S. can justly resort to war). Pope John Paul II, speaking in anticipation of the U.S. invasion, warned that, “War is always a defeat for humanity,” and on March 23 as the invasion began, declared that, “When war, like the one in Iraq, threatens the future of humanity, it is even more important to proclaim in a strong and decisive voice that peace is the only way to build a more just and unified society.”

Some have rejected the pope’s judgment against the invasion, on grounds that when he made it, he was not speaking infallibly. The not- speaking-infallibly argument however does not defeat the claim that all Catholics are required to accept the Vatican’s judgment that the invasion is unjust. Archbishop Martino and Cardinal Laghi are certainly not speaking infallibly, and it maybe that Pope John Paul is not speaking infallibly either when he condemns the invasion. When he condemns the rape of Iraq by a U.S.-driven “Coalition of the Willing,” (comprised of Britain on the one hand and the U.S. on the other), the Pope is not proclaiming “a doctrine pertaining to faith and morals”(See Vatican Council II, Vol. 1, p.380), ” and so arguably is not speaking infallibly. But infallible pronouncements are not the only pronouncements that the Catholic must accept. At Vol.1, p.379, Vatican Council II declares that , “… loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic teaching of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and that one sincerely adhere to decisions made by him conformably with his manifest mind and intention…”

When the Pope declares that the war “..in Iraq...threatens the future of humanity..,” it is evident he has decided that the U.S. invasion of Iraq is unjust. Accordingly, all Catholics are required to treat that invasion as unjust. A Catholic may not, under pain of serious sin, support it in any way. Instead, he is required “to proclaim” with the Pope, “in a strong and decisive voice, that peace”-- and not war (especially not “preventive” war)-- “is the only way to build a more just and unified society.”

-- mike mckee (mckeesign@aol.com), March 29, 2003.



Response to Vaticans opinion on War

Jmj
Hello, Mike M.

You are missing a crucial distinction in language, and your error is leading you to a wrong conclusion. This has been happening all over the forum, and it really needs to stop.

You correctly quoted Vatican II as stating:
"… loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic teaching of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra ..."

Absolutely! I am one of several people who have tried hard, for years, to spread this fact to people who fail to submit to the pope's "ordinary" teachings.

But note the crucial two words: "authentic teaching." We must submit to the pope's "authentic teaching." The pope only expressed a non-binding, "prudential judgment" on the situation involving Iraq. He did not give us an "authentic teaching," but an opinion that we are to respect (without necessarily agreeing with it).

If the pope had wished to give us an "authentic teaching" to which we would have to submit, he would have stated (many weeks ago) words to this effect:
"It is patently clear that the military conflict being contemplated against Iraq would be immoral, and Catholics may not participate in it without committing grave sin, for the following reasons ... [etc., where the pope would explain how the conflict could not possibly meet 'just law' criteria, etc.]."

Right now, I don't have time to go into the subject of "preventive" war, etc., that you mentioned has been raised by certain bishops.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 31, 2003.


Response to Vaticans opinion on War

Janet - I feel your pain. John G and Joe S have made several excellent posts on various threads to help me resolve the uncomfortable feeling of not agreeing with the Vatican and the Pope. In my opinion, this is case and point where I am reminded that leaders of any organization (be it the Church or the gov't) are human and therefore subject to error. Of course, when the Pope is speaking infallibly or ex cathedra on Church doctrine/teaching, that is a different matter as those comments are guided by the Holy Spirit.

Hollis - there can be no reasonable interpretation of the pope's statements and that of the Vatican other than a wholesale condemnation of Bush and the US. Just like interpreting scripture, we need to look at the sum total of what has been said and look at the context in which it was said. I agree with Janet here - this condemnation is off base and I respectfully dissent.

Mike M - "rape of Iraq" - give me a break!!! What news reports are you watching?!? Spewing lies like that is repulsive, not to mention dishonest.

John - well done, once again.

God bless,

-- Bob M (itsallgood777@hotmail.com), April 08, 2003.


Most of what I see here is a lot of people who want to show that they know the latin for "From The Chair." Very impressive. I have lost any use for this church...not to be confused with Christianity. Too many arrogant punks for me to ignore. Hello God....Goodbye bullcrap church. Paul K. Condon

-- Paul Condon (pkcondon@aol.com), December 17, 2003.

Oh, well thanks, Paul Condrums,
We wish you well. On your happy pilgrimage to nowhere salute some others who said bye-bye to the Church of Christ and his apostles:

Martin Luther
Henry VIII of England and his 9 wives.
John Calvin (a notorious heretic)

I hope your own parents and late forebears weren't included in this band of unbelievers who hopped off the Bark of Saint Peter into the ocean of spiritual confusion. Let's hope you still number many good and faithful Catholics up somewhere in your family tree.

They will be in heaven with the Holy Son of God and His Blessed mother, all the angels, saints and martyrs of the Holy Catholic faith. Your own blessed ancestors, Paul ! ! ! Tell us; were they all arrogant punks?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 17, 2003.


--

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 17, 2003.


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