... I will speak of the gift of tongues a little here, in response to a recent note from Daniel. The thread offered to him for information seems a little stale. Maybe this will help those who may be stuck in their prayer life.

First of all the gift of praying in tongues, offered by the Holy Spirit, is most certainly not Satanic, as the holy father Pope John Paul 11 received the gift when he was 12 years old, as he testified to 3000 priests at a charismatic retreat in Rome in 1997.

The number of Catholics praying {and speaking, another aspect of the gift}in tongues is growing as they search for intimacy with God on new levels. I, being a cradle Catholic and enjoying the fullness of this wonderful Church Christ left us with, received my heavenly prayer language when I was 23 years old.I've used it daily for 25 years. The more I excersize it, the more it develops and God can reveal Himself in deeper ways.

Usage of tongues cuts through confusion like a 2-edged sword and brings one from the 'head' to the 'heart' of God, revealing His mind quickly. Usage of tongues reveals what the Holy Spirit would have you pray for {Romans 8:26,27}.Tongue usage helps reveal what strongholds in place need to be destroyed in ourselves and others {1 Cor.10:4,5}. Tongue usage reveals situations that need tending to, when we don't know how to pray.

This is a gift which OPENS our spirits to the activity of the Holy Spirit. It's been called a 'threshhold' gift to the other gifts. It helps open us to see the work of the Holy Spirit,enabling us to co-operate with Him, giving us wisdom, discernment, healing gifts, etc. Using the gift of tongues transcends our intellect and grows our personal prayer life.

It's a wonderful communal gift. This past Tuesday evening 12 people of our prayer group met in our living room to pray and seek the Lord's will, as we prayed in tongues a UNITY of heart was created {acts 4:32}. The gift enables us to enter God's timing,sometimes called the prophetic realm, when we 'call down the heavenlies' so to speak. 1 Corinthians 2:16.. "for we have the mind of Christ".

When a community of believers prays in tongues there is a need to press on, to keep praying past the thoughts of "I look undignified, what will people think, I'm getting tired", there is a communal seeking God with one heart. Then things begin to happen, we begin to enter the throne room of God, so to speak. When the tongues ends there is a heavy silence, it covers us like a blanket, it's the sweet hush of the Holy Spirit. Am I speaking to anyone?? And the Holy Spirit begins to speak to our hearts. St. Paul, exhorting us all to prophecy, tells us the prophetic word usually edifies, encourages, and consoles. {1 Cor. 14:3}. This is important>> I say it again, "edifies [builds up], encourages [points to the positive destiny of one's life in Christ], and consoles [heals].

The goal of the gifts are to point us to Jesus.. Revelations 19:10.."witness to Jesus is the spirit of prophecy".

I believe there is a dyer need and an urgent call for us to seek the prophetic gifts of the Holy Spirit, on a personal and communal level. This is not stale old sermons, this is a fresh anointing calling us Catholics to speak fresh words to each other, to set captives free and break off old strongholds of wrong attitudes, ways of thinking, and fleshly desires. God needs strong soldiers to be salt of the earth now.

No, a zebra cannot lose its stripes, but the Holy Spirit wants to shed light on our strongholds and sinful patterns. Only by His grace can He help us repent of our pride,lusts for power, and other hidden sins. He wants to sharpen us up and increase our love capacity. He'll increase our zeal to be holy {for Rev. 21:27 says "nothing unholy will enter the kingdom"}. There is nothing wrong with saying "I am holy", for it is by His grace that we are.

Praying in tongues, the language of the Holy Spirit, helps us recover the image of God, by whom and in whom we were created. It speeds us to our destiny- His Kingdom here on earth. As Paul wished, ask for the gift of tongues now. You'll be delighted, to put it mildly. {so will He} Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), March 27, 2003

Answers

maranatha!

-- Tee (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), March 27, 2003.

Theresa, I have received the Holy Spirit three times. Last time in November 2002. I can tell you this: I never spoke in tongues(other languages), I didn't shake, I didn't fall down to the ground. This is what I experienced after closing my eyes, kneeling down before God: an intense light shines over you and gets inside, you shiver like when you are cold, yet you are warm, you feel like a 120 watt wire shocking you without hurting you. You vcan't talk, can't move.

Now I can understand what happened in AD 32(or 33) AD. The intense light are the tongues of fire. Since my situation didn't require to speak to others in a foreign tongue, I didn't.

I know Charismatic groups. They are no different than Pentecostals except they are Catholic. I have been to their retreats, their meetings, their renewals. They fake it when they claim they are receiving God's the Holy Spirit. If they knew, if they truly knew.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (EGONZALEZ@SRLA.ORG), March 27, 2003.

Well, I guess I'll go ahead and play the bad guy, since I'm already up to my neck in the stuff anyways...

Theresa, I don't think this thing you are talking about is even Catholic; that's the mild version of what I'm actually thinking.

Well hell, someone has to say it.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), March 28, 2003.

Um, out of curiosity, Emerald, why isn't it Catholic? And Elpidio, what makes you think they're faking it?

I've never had experiences like either Theresa or Elpidio, but I've seen people "resting in the Spirit" as they say, and speaking in tongues at retreats. I've always believed that it's entirely Catholic. Could someone enlighten me please?

-- marie (m@peace.com), March 28, 2003.

Ms. Tee:

It is a wonderful gift and thank you for sharing this post.

There are other greater gifts, however, as listed in the N.T., the greatest of course is love. Have you ever met someone so brimming over with the love of the Lord that their face radiates His glory? That truly is the perfection Paul indicates in Corinthians.

I did have the most glorious experience one time with tongues. A little 16 year old gal in our church was in a vehicle accident and had to be flown by helicoptor to hospital. No one had any idea what her condition was or how she was injured, but that it was serious. As I was praying for her that night I had an overwhelming urge to get on my knees and pray in tongues. As I was praying in tongues I saw an image of the Lord's hand go over her head. Then I found myself praying, "Lord, stop the bleeding. Lord, stop the bleeding." Over and over and over again.

The next day I found out that she had a vein in her head burst and was bleeding internally. The doctors could not stop the bleeding and told the parents to expect the worst. I asked what time the doctors had given the parents this notification and it was EXACTLY at the time I was on my knees. I believe the Lord allowed me to participate in His healing of this child.

Now, some would ask, "What did tongues have to do with that?" I would just say that it predisposed me to enter the supernatural realm, bypassing my own mental inabilities, and it enabled me to pray His will perfectly.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 28, 2003.

The charismatic aspect of Christian life is something Jesus gave His Church. To say that it is not "Catholic" is to say that the early Church was not Catholic. The charismatic gifts are clearly and repeatedly described in the earliest Catholic writings, the New Testament, always by way of emphasizing their importance and encouraging us to be open to them. Charisms are an integral part of a full Christian life, both personal and communal. It is a sad but glaring reality that the people who are most vocally opposed to such works of the Spirit are invariably those who have no personal experience of them.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 28, 2003.

"Um, out of curiosity, Emerald, why isn't it Catholic?"

It isn't so much a matter of saying why it isn't Catholic so much as having someone explain why it is Catholic. Because I don't see it in the Deposit of the Faith, as unmistakable Catholic teaching.

And Elpidio, what makes you think they're faking it?

I don't know what Elpidio is thinking, but what I'm not necessarily assuming people are faking things.

What will probably happen here is that people will continue to tell of their experiences with speaking in tongues, and soon enough the concensus will be that I'm completely out of the loop through the weight of personal testimony if we get enough postings, because that's the way things things usually go down.

But listen, I can't rely on personal testimony of this nature when I have the rich history of the Faith as the chief guide. Personal testimony has it's place in our Faith, but it can't take the place or improve upon the Faith that was complete at the time of the Apostles.

I can't say this is a Catholic phenomena because speaking in tongues, as people understand the term today... is not incorporated into our Faith in any official teaching over two thousand years; it just isn't there.

This absolutely does not mean that I refuse to believe in the manifest power of God; maybe I've personally seen something of it, maybe I haven't, but even if I did I wouldn't be authorized to promote it as Catholic Truth.

Actually, I do believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, very much in fact. This much is clearly laid out in our Faith. In fact, I've brought up many times the mystical experiences of Saints and I'm very attracted to this approved aspect of our Faith.

What makes me put this current understanding of the various manifestations of the Holy Spirit at arms length is that it appears to serve the interests of men and their supposed needs, wants and desires, whereas those mystical Saints, who had these incredible experiences, they all lived lives of intense suffering of the kind that not many of us could bear to suffer. They also were keenly aware that their suffering was directly related to the salvation of souls.

It hurts to be on the other side of the fence of people's affections sometimes, and sometimes I bring it upon myself by poking people, but listen, this isn't one of those times. I think things such as this need to be dealt critically and carefully.

One of my favorite mystics is Ven. Mary of Agreda. In her incredible book of insights given to her, she addresses the day of Pentecost and makes it very clear that the speaking in tongues that happened on that occasion was a matter of each hearing the apostles in their own native language. That's the operative understanding I believe represents reality. That, in and of itself, is a miracle enough for me.

On judgement day, even if I am dead wrong in not accepting this current understanding of speaking in tongues, I'm pretty sure that God will not call it a sin on my part for calling it into question, because of the fact that what is being put forth today as actions of the Holy Spirit in the Charismatic movement have not been clearly delineated as Catholic teaching.

Put it to the test, I guess. Show me how the Charismatic phenomenon is uniquely Catholic in relation to the Deposit of the Faith. Don't be nice, just show me something I can sink my teeth into. I'm not a doubting Thomas here; it is a matter of safequarding what the Apostles did hand off to us.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), March 28, 2003.

Paul, that I haven't experience anything is just not true; you'll have to just take my word for it. I'm not banging you over the head for assuming it, but I just thought I would let you know.

You guys must think I'm stale... lol! "That Emerald, he's just a jerk!" I'm just saying what I think. Maybe I'm speaking in tongues, who knows.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), March 28, 2003.

Hey Emerald:

It's good to chat with you again. It's been a long time. I think you are right in that the Catechism does not address speaking in tongues -- I think. I can't find it anyway. But neither does the pope condemn charismatic meetings. There is no mention in the N.T. of a cessation of tongues. The NT DOES specifically say that "Not all speak in tongues." So, anyway, that's all I know.

It's a great gift, but as St. Paul says, "the greatest is love." Balance is the key!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 28, 2003.

-these discerned phenomena and 'truths' -do they have a divinely inspired scriptural basis, e.g. the book?

-- Daniel (love@truth.org), March 28, 2003.

In earlier days, my mother often floundered for the truth. She was brought up Catholic, and had a really hard time after Vatican II. Not so much with the Mass changes at the time, more with the parish priests beginning to speak open heresy from the pulpit in our parish. Another parish priest being accused of homosexual acts on a teenager. Among many others. Anyway...she began to search high and low for something more spiritual (but still Catholic), hence her encounter, and short lived (thank goodness) participation in the Charismatic movement. She even managed to drag her stubborn, defiant pre-teen daughter (me) with her to a few 'revivals'.

Here is my recollection of these events: People with their arms stretched out, waving to and fro, marching up to the altar to be baptized in the 'spirit', some falling over fainting, some convulsing on the ground and then faining, and some speaking in tongues. Now, when I heard the speaking in tongues, I almost lost myself in uncontrollable laughter. What in the hell were these people speaking?! This was no language....this was jiberrish!!!!! Anyone who hears people 'speaking in tongues' can tell it is jibberish, not a true language. (As if the other antics besides the speaking in tongues aren't enough for a Catholic to make a clean run for the door.)

When speaking in tongues is spoken of in the gospel, it is meant that people of different languages heard the apostles in their own language. It was a gift from the Holy Ghost to enable the apostles to evangelize to diverse crowds or those of another language they did not yet know. How else was the Church to spread so rapidly?

Besides the fact that the Charismatic movement did not appear in the Church until the 1960's should also tell you something. Could it be possible that the 'Pentecostals' had something the one, true Church of Christ did not have that would be beneficial to one's soul?

Well, anyway, my intention here was not to deeply offend anyone, but I am as much opposed to this as some are in favor of it.

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), March 28, 2003.

Hi Gail; thanks for not clowning me one. =) That kind of patience, no doubt, is a gift of the Holy Spirit! lol.

The "voices" from heaven seem to be really subtle, and I don't deny that they happen. I have very little experience with any such phenomena, but here's what I'm familiar with or what seems recognizable to me:

A long time ago, in 8th grade in a private Catholic school, I had this teacher who I really liked. He was a single man, seemed broke all the time and drank gallons of coffee, and was very devoted to his faith and quite the philosopher. I met up with him many years later, right after college about 15 years ago because he was working for a well known Catholic apologist in the area. To the best of my knowledge, I haven't seen him since then.

Recently, after years of not thinking about this man, while not forgeting that he existed if you know what I mean... I'm sitting on my back porch with a cup of coffee, and this guy comes into my mind, and I'm thinking specifically about him, remembering stuff. I can't get this man out of my head. I comment to my wife on the way to Mass, that I can't get this Mr. X out of my head. At Mass, someone I know only a little walks up to me and says "I thought you might like to know, Mr. X just passed away last Friday night". The person telling me that Mr. X died didn't know how well I knew Mr. X, let alone that Mr. X was a favorite teacher of mine a long time ago.

So there it is. That, to me, is the subtle voice of the Holy Spirit. What's the Holy Spirit saying? The Holy Spirit is saying, "Emerald, pray for Mr. X" Not real flashy, just "there".

My friend Larry that just died... a long time ago, in grade school I was with my parents vacationing in another state. I was in a parking lot and saw a $10 bill floating by and picked it up. My mom asked me what she thought we ought to do with it, and while I don't remember it, she says that I suggested that we mail it to Larry; $10 isn't a whole lot, but we found out later that it was all Larry had to eat with when he received it. Same game, different arena.

Imho, that's the subtle manifestation of the spirit, on the "positive side". But it is one that seems to me to be only well placed when it points to hard lessons, suffering and the general benefit to the mystical body of Christ and not to personal benefit or satisfaction. There's even more on the hurtful side, too. The action of the Holy Spirit, imho, offers severe, intense suffering as a means to awaken souls to the life in Christ.

Please don't hate me for this Theresa.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), March 28, 2003.

You don't see the charisms as unmistakable Catholic teaching? Well, in addition to the New Testament, which is surely unmistakable Catholic teaching, consider the following passages from the Catechism of the Catholic Church ...

688 The Church, a communion living in the faith of the apostles which she transmits, is the place where we know the Holy Spirit: - in the Scriptures he inspired; - in the Tradition, to which the Church Fathers are always timely witnesses; - in the Church's Magisterium, which he assists; - in the sacramental liturgy, through its words and symbols, in which the Holy Spirit puts us into communion with Christ; - in prayer, wherein he intercedes for us; - IN THE CHARISMS AND MINISTRIES by which the Church is built up; - in the signs of apostolic and missionary life; - in the witness of saints through whom he manifests his holiness and continues the work of salvation.

768 So that she can fulfill her mission, the Holy Spirit "bestows upon [the Church] VARIED HIERARCHIC AND CHARISMATIC GIFTS, and in this way directs her."

798 The Holy Spirit is "the principle of every vital and truly saving action in each part of the Body." He works in many ways to build up the whole Body in charity: .... by THE MANY GRACES (CALLED "CHARISMS"), by which he makes the faithful "fit and ready to undertake various tasks and offices for the renewal and building up of the Church."

799 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, CHARISMS ARE GRACES OF THE HOLY SPIRIT which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.

800 CHARISMS ARE TO BE ACCEPTED WITH GRATITUDE BY THE PERSON WHO RECEIVES THEM and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.

801 It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church's shepherds. "Their office [is] not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good," 254 so that ALL THE DIVERSE AND COMPLIMENTARY CHARISMS WORK TOGETHER "FOR THE COMMON GOOD".

809 The Church is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is the soul, as it were, of the Mystical Body, the source of its life, of its unity in diversity, and of THE RICHES OF ITS GIFTS AND CHARISMS.

910 "The laity can also feel called, or be in fact called, to cooperate with their pastors in the service of the ecclesial community, for the sake of its growth and life. This can be done through the exercise of different kinds of ministries ACCORDING TO THE GRACE AND CHARISMS WHICH THE LORD HAS BEEN PLEASED TO BESTOW ON THEM."

951 Within the communion of the Church, the Holy Spirit "distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank" for the building up of the Church. Now, "TO EACH IS GIVEN THE MANIFESTATION FOR THE COMMON GOOD"

1508 The Holy Spirit gives to some A SPECIAL CHARISM OF HEALING so as to make manifest the power of the grace of the risen Lord.

2003 . . . There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit." Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, SUCH AS THE GIFT OF MIRACLES OR OF TONGUES - CHARISMS ARE ORIENTED TOWARD SANCTIFYING GRACE and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

2024 Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." CHARISMS, SPECIAL GRACES OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.

-- (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 28, 2003.

Regarding the interpretation of Scripture, we all know full well the pitfalls of that can arise. Behold Protestantism, and the volumes written by you and many others explaining how they fall into error. You and others have posted many good things in defense of the Faith is this regard.

Regarding the CCC; the CCC is infallible only in so far as it accurately states those things which are of the Deposit of the Faith; only in so far as it accurately reflects known doctrine.

That's all I can really say about it.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), March 28, 2003.

Dear Isabel,

"She even managed to drag her stubborn, defiant pre-teen daughter (me) with her to a few 'revivals'. "

A: Revivals? After 30 years in a charismatic Catholic parish, I have yet to see anything Catholic called a "revival". That is a fundamentalist Protestant term. Are you sure what you attended was Catholic? Or did you use that term for effect, when what you actually attended was a Catholic charismatic prayer meeting?

"Here is my recollection of these events: People with their arms stretched out, waving to and fro, marching up to the altar to be baptized in the 'spirit', some falling over fainting, some convulsing on the ground and then faining, and some speaking in tongues"

A: How beautifully scriptural! You probably didn't realize that at the time, but I would think that you would by now.

"Anyone who hears people 'speaking in tongues' can tell it is jibberish, not a true language"

A: On what basis can they tell that? By the fact that they cannot personally understand it? Cambodian sounds like gibberish to me, but that is due to my own ingorance of the language. Tongues has been analysed by linguistic experts and found to possess the essential structure of a language. Also, I have personally seen cases of persons speaking in tongues, and being understood by someone else present, who actually knew the language they were speaking, even though the speaker didn't know it! In one case it was Hebrew, in another case Swahili, and another time Russian. Of course, this only emphasizes what I said before - that those who are most vocal about rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit are always those who lack personal experience.

"When speaking in tongues is spoken of in the gospel, it is meant that people of different languages heard the apostles in their own language. It was a gift from the Holy Ghost to enable the apostles to evangelize to diverse crowds or those of another language they did not yet know"

A: Really!

"And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance". (Acts 2:4) What does this have to do with preaching to crowds? The only ones present were the Apostles.

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying." (Acts 19:6) Paul was not preaching here. Neither were the people on whom he was laying hands.

Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy ... (1 Corinthians 14:5) Was Paul saying here that he wanted ALL Christians to go out and preach to foreign crowds of people?? I thought that was the calling of an apostle.

"and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues" 1 Corinthians 12:10 Why would tongues need an interpreter if, as you claim, it is already being understood by all those who hear it??

In addition to the teaching of Holy Mother Church cited above from the Catechism, God's will regarding tongues is clearly spelled out in the Scriptures ...

"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues (Mark 16:17)

"And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues". (1 Corinthians 12:28)

"Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid the speaking in tongues". (1 Corinthians 14:39)

So why is it then that you do forbid what both the Church and the Scriptures so strongly support? Well, that is also clearly stated in Scripture ...

"Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?" (1 Cor 14:23)

Note that there is no suggestion here that the Church should not speak in tongues when it meets together, but only a description of how ungifted [read "inexperienced"] or unbelieving persons might react. Wear the shoe if it fits.

"Besides the fact that the Charismatic movement did not appear in the Church until the 1960's should also tell you something". Could it be possible that the 'Pentecostals' had something the one, true Church of Christ did not have that would be beneficial to one's soul? "

A: The movement that began in the 1960's was a called the "Charismatic Renewal". To "renew" means to bring back AGAIN, which is why the name was applied, to emphasize that the movement was a REclaiming, a REemphasis, of something that was essentially Catholic, but had sadly been neglected in recent times. It is well to recognize that this occurred after Catholics had been praying at the end of every Mass that the Holy Spirit would "renew the Church as if by a new Pentecost". God does answer the prayers of His people!

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 28, 2003.

The fact is this: not one Saint in the history of the Roman Catholic Church has ever described experiences that are even remotely similiar to the experiences described by those in the Charismatic Moverment. Not a single one.

Of the mystical Saints of the Holy Church, their experiences are in stark contract with the experiences described by those in the Charismatic Movement.

Read this by recently arrived member of the Church Truimphant, Sister Fuastina, and discern for yourselves if there is any similiarity.

Read this story of Ven. Emmerich and see if there is anything remotely similiar in her life to the modus operandi of the Charismatic Movement.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), March 28, 2003.

So basically, Isabel, you just don't have understanding because you have not the Spirit. I think that's the point. It sounds a little like modern art. Some guy heaves this cacaphony of paint at a canvass, and if you don't appreciate it, why, you're just not intelligent enough to understand it. You just don't have what it takes to appreciate it.

Woe to the traditionalists that have not the Spirit. Stale, stodgy sticks in the mud. At this point, Paul, again here's another one of those contradictions that keep coming up... telling Protestants that they can't interpret Scripture outside the context of the Roman Catholic Church, but that's exactly what you are proposing, imho.

Meanwhile, as to the traditionlist Catholics... even the dogs get that scraps from the master's table.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), March 28, 2003.

Since, I am busy at the moment, and do not have time to reply to the long post you left me (but will do so tonite) I will reply to your first thread with quotes from the Catechism. There is nothing that guarantees infallibility Catechism, but it is infallible, as Emerald stated, insofar as it holds true to Catholic doctrine.

Also, I noticed you seemed to capitalize every 'charism' as to validate your point. But, as stated by one of your quotes, this is the term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit." Now, using traditional Catholic teaching the gifts of the Holy Ghost would be: Wisdom, Piety, Knowledge, Counsel, Fortitude, Fear of the Lord, & Understanding.

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), March 28, 2003.

I don't see 'Gift of Tongues' listed in the above Seven Gifts of the Holy Ghost.

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), March 28, 2003.

The movement that began in the 1960's was a called the "Charismatic Renewal"... It is well to recognize that this occurred after Catholics had been praying at the end of every Mass that the Holy Spirit would "renew the Church as if by a new Pentecost".

That's interesting; I would be more inclined to link it with the disappearance in the 1960's of the praying of the St. Michael prayer after Mass, instituted by Leo XIII after seeing a vision of a conversation between God and Satan about how Satan would attempt to destroy the Church, and what was about to descend on the Catholic Church.

"Attempt" is what I said. The gates of Hell will not prevail against it.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), March 28, 2003.

Dear Emerald and Isabel,

The Catechism simply records what the Church teaches. Either you accept what the Church teaches or you take a smorgasboard approach to Catholicism. Take what you like and reject the rest (finding appropriate loopholes of course for rejecting that which doesn't appeal to you). Well, this is not a matter of morality, nor of dogma, so no-one MUST accept it. But the testimony of those who know about it by experience, like Paul, the Apostles, the Catholics of their day, and those in the Charismatic Renewal today, unanimously proclaim its great spiritual benefits. So why would anyone be impressed by the fact that some people who have no way of assessing its spiritual benefits nevertheless rant and rave against that which they have no personal knowledge of?

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 28, 2003.

The challenge is still out there, third post down on the thread named "Vatican II -- revisited".

If someone takes the challenge seriously, and finds the real answer, they will find that the following statement:

Either you accept what the Church teaches or you take a smorgasboard approach to Catholicism.

...does not apply.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), March 28, 2003.

Isabel, The gifts of the Holy Spirit are listed in 1 COR 12:8 as follows:

"For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, nd to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues."

Note that all of these gifts are supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit. They are not ordinary in the least. For instance, the word of knowledge is not someone having knowledge or understanding as is commonly understood. Instead, it means supernatural knowledge, like when Jesus confronted the woman at the well, he knew about her past husbands and the current man she was living with. Jesus didn't know that because he was God, he knew it because the Holy Spirit revealed it to him as a word of knowledge. Same as the gift of faith, it's not referring to the faith that we use to believe in Jesus unto salvation. It's a supernatural faith that results in a demonstration of God's power - such as all of those people who were healed miraculously without Jesus touching them or praying for them - Jesus testified that their faith had healed them.

Paul, I'm afraid this thread is a rather good example of your first observation. It is difficult for many to accept the idea of people being able to pray for healing or prophesying or speaking in tongues. It's hard to get past the misperception that such gifts are somehow earned and that those people claiming to function in the gifts are holier or something. The truth is that the Holy Spirit wants every believer to function in the gifts of the Spirit, not just "special" believers. And while there are those out there who are fooling themselves by thinking they are speaking in tongues when in reality they are speaking gibberish, that shouldn't discount the hugh volumes of people who are genuinely flowing in tongues as empowered by the Holy Spirit.

And as Theresa pointed out, tongues are a gateway to the Holy Spirit and to the greater gifts. Tongues strengthen the individual. The other other gifts are greater because they strengthen the entire Body of Christ and are frequently used to win the lost to Christ.

Excellent thread, Theresa.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), March 28, 2003.

Hello all, I am a child in Christ and stumbled to this conversation. We as God's children should look out out for one another, especially if the Devil is trying to decieve us. I have learned from my walk with Christ that I can not convince anyone in what the Bible reveals to me through the Holy Spirit. The Bible in its entirety is my only authority because every sigle word is God breath. I find all my answers in the Bible. God tells us to compare scripture with scripture to find truth. If we are studing a specific topic in the Bible, our conclusion must be testes with everything in the Bible. If our conclusion contradicts with something in the Bible, then our conclusion is wrong. Every verse that aplies to our topic must harmonize. The Old Testament history was recorded to tell us something about future prophecy. There is so much parallelism throughout the whole Bible. And every scripture from Old Testament to New Testament, God has hidden a spiritual truth the tells us something about our Lord Jesus Christ and His salvation program. The Bible is diffucult to uderstand because it is written in Parables. Christ only spoke in parables because He only reveals truth to the Elect only(the true believers), whomever they may be. We know a parable is an earthly story with an heavenly meaning. Yes the historical accounts recorded in the Bible are real inccadents and also historical parables which reveals a heavenly message which only the Holy Spirit can reveal to us. We must hummbley approach God's word asking for wisdom. And God Gives us understanding if and only if He has regenerated our souls(spiritual Life). I am so grateful for the spiritual wisdom that God gives me. I don't even deserve it! I give Him all the glory, Amen. Every tiny bit of knowledge I do have I can not take the credit for it because I don't think I am smart at all! Any bit of righteousness I do have is only because it is Christ who wills in me to do good. Frankly I am a filthy sinner who deserves to go to hell. If Christ didn't draw me and gave me spiritual life, I would have ended up in enternal Hell. One thing for sure is I fear God tooooo much to just make statements or opinions, especially if I am not certain. Because If i am wrong, it would be if I was comitting murder. We are living very very near the end time of Christ's return and we must be very very careful not to get sneared, because the Devil is the father of lies, he is amaster deciever, and he also comes down as an "Angel of light!" The devil transforms himself to any pastor or priest or evangelist. And His gospel sounds like the true Gospel. The moment we start following false doctrine, Satin has sucessfully done his job. Following false doctrine is like worshiping false gods, and the Bible calls it "high places." Since the begining of time the Bible talks about how God put judgement on the Isrealites because of "high Places". Even the true believers worshiped God Almighty and stil had their high places. But God patiently let it slide. Do you recall that after the death of Solomon, God divided the twelve tribes of Israel into two nations? Ten of the tribes became a nation called Israel which had its capital in Samaria. Two of the tribes, Judah and Benjamin, became the nation of Judah which had its capital in Jerusalem. God had set up a testing program for both of these nations. The testing program involved contemporary nations. During the days of the demise of the ten tribes, the testing program involved the nation of Assyria. The nation of Israel looked with longing at the beautiful horses and the beautiful apparel of the Assyrians and decided that their gods must be victorious gods. They began to play spiritual harlotry with Assyria. They began to run after the gods of the Assyrians, a nation whose language they did not understand, and God used the Assyrians to destroy Israel. Then the nation of Judah began to play spiritual harlotry with the gods of the Babylonians and the Assyrians. They looked at the success of these nations (the beautiful horses and the beautiful apparel), and all that went along with it, and Judah began to lust after their gods. Babylon, too, was a nation whose language they did not understand. It was this nation that destroyed Judah in 587 B.C. This is the scenario that God gives to guide us into truth concerning the destruction of the New Testament church. The principle of a testing program is found repeatedly in the Bible. Israel, for example, was tested by God when Moses left them for forty days to receive the tables of the law on Mt. Sinai. Israel failed the test by making and worshipping the golden calf. As a result, God's wrath came upon them and about 3,000 men were killed (Exodus 32). The number 40 in the Bible, or a multiple of ten of the number 40 such as 400, may be a clue that a testing program is in progress. Israel was in the wilderness forty years after coming out of Egypt. They failed the test; few of them trusted in God. The Bible records in Joshua 5:6: For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey. Significantly, it can be shown that there were exactly 400 years from the time when Israel came out of Egypt (1447 B.C.), and Saul became king over Israel (1047 B.C.). The latter occurred in the days of Samuel, who was the last of God's prophets to judge Israel. When Samuel was old, Israel came to him and asked for a king to rule over them. I Samuel 8:4-7: Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. Saul became king exactly 400 years after Israel, under the direct rule of God, came out of Egypt. They failed the test in that they did not want God to rule over them directly. Another interesting testing program in relation to the number forty is in the Book of Jonah. Jonah was instructed to cry against Nineveh because of their wickedness (Jonah 1:2). Jonah 3:4: "And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." Wonderfully, the people of Nineveh were victorious in their test. Jonah 3:5 and 10 report: "So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. . . . And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Perhaps the greatest testing program of all occurred in the New Testament, when the Lord Jesus Christ took on a human nature and was tested. Luke 4:1-2: And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness. Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered. The first Adam was tested in the Garden of Eden, and the second Adam, Christ, was also tested. The first Adam failed the test by disobeying God and thus plunged the human race into sin, but our Lord was victorious in the test. He remained entirely obedient to God. His perfect obedience has made the incomprehensible Kingdom of God a reality for all who believe on Him. Obviously, the principle that God tests the human race is firmly established in the Bible. The end-time church, too, is faced with a testing program. Unfortunately, the Bible reveals that the end-time church in large measure will fail its testing program, just as Adam and Eve failed in their day and as ancient Israel repeatedly did. The church will fail the test and will come under God's wrath, just as God's judgment came when Adam and Eve failed the test. In the Bible, we can learn how God plans to eventually destroy the New Testament church as it becomes increasingly sinful. It will not be by political action. It will not be by an ideology like Communism. It will be by satanic activity working through false gospels that look so much like the true Gospel that even the elect would be deceived, if that were possible. The Bible discloses that right near the end of time, Satan will become the dominant ruler within the congregations. In II Thessalonians 2, God speaks of the man of sin taking his seat in the temple. It will be seen that the man of sin can be only Satan. Matthew 24:24: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." In Revelation 13:7, God informs us: "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Revelation 13 speaks of the beast that comes out of the earth. This can be only Satan and his dominion, as he rules through false gospels. By this means, he is able to destroy the churches that are under the judgment of God. Thus, he is able to overcome the saints, the true believers, within the congregations. Destruction of the New Testament church is not through political action but through the action of the church itself as it becomes apostate. Clues and guidance as to how this will materialize can be learned from God's dealings with ancient Israel, because Israel is a type, figure, or representation of the New Testament church. What happened in the nation of Israel gives insight as to what will happen to the congregations of our day. The testing program that identifies with the end-time church will be focused on a nation whose language the congregation does not understand. God gives at least two prominent clues in the Old Testament as to the nature of the final testing program. The first clue is in Deuteronomy 13:1-3: If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. God clearly says that He is proving, that is, testing the congregation through the activity of a false prophet within their midst. We should know about the character of this prophet and the nature of his teaching. The introduction to Chapter 13 of Deuteronomy is the last verse of Deuteronomy 12, where God admonishes the congregation: "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it." God says that man shall not add to nor take away from the Word of God. To recognize the Word of God as His Word and have an intense desire to be obedient to it, is, in fact, worshipping God. On the other hand, to believe that there is an additional source of divine information (to believe that a dream, vision, or tongue is from God when, indeed, it is not), that effectively is worshipping a god other than the God of the Bible. God gives the same warning in the New Testament, in Revelation 22:18-19: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. "This book" can be only the Bible. The Bible alone and in its entirety is the Word of God. Any additional articulated, verbalized message supposedly from God which is delivered through a dream, vision, or by any other means, is an addition to the Bible. Because God is not adding anything to the divine revelation which is the Bible, if one listens to these messages and believes they are of God, he effectively is worshipping a god other than the God of the Bible. God warns in verse 18 that anyone who commits this sin is subject to the plagues written in the Bible; that is, he is subject to eternal damnation. Deuteronomy 13 says the false prophet is a dreamer of dreams, that is, he is convinced that what he hears in his dreams is of God. The sign or the wonder, the prophetic statement of his dream or vision, comes to pass; therefore, he believes he has received a supernatural visitation, but because the message he received was not from God, it had to be from Satan. When he teaches that the message he received in a dream or vision was from God and, therefore, is the Word of God, he is encouraging people to go after a god other than the God of the Bible. This is a deadly serious sin within the congregation. Deuteronomy 13 says that this prophet is to be put to death even if he is a loved one of someone in the congregation. The key phrases in these verses in Deuteronomy 13 are, "for the Lord your God proveth you" (or tests you) and "to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul." These phrases teach something about God's final testing program for the church. God clearly says that He will test the congregation by allowing those who say they declare the Word of God but who are false prophets (because their source is other than the Bible), to be within the congregation. The second Old Testament clue to the final testing program that will come against the church is that which came against ancient Israel. The signpost to this clue is in the New Testament, I Corinthians 14:21: "In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord." To understand this clue, one must know the setting in which it is found. I Corinthians 14 discusses the phenomenon of tongues, which was present in the church at Corinth. Certain individuals there received from God, as a gift of the Holy Spirit, messages in a language (a tongue), which neither they nor anyone else in the congregation could understand. In I Corinthians 14:2 God speaks of these as "in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." Additionally, within that congregation God gave certain individuals the gift of interpretation. By means of this God- given gift, the message received in the tongue was made understandable to the congregation. I Corinthians 14:5 informs us that when the tongues message was interpreted, it edified the congregation. This was a valid spiritual event in the church at Corinth. They had only that part of the Bible which is now called the Old Testament. God was still breaking the silence between the supernatural and the natural when He gave messages to Paul, John, Peter, and Agabus (Acts 11:28). Because these messages were from God, they were an addition to the Word of God. The New Testament had not yet been completed; even with these additions, the churches of that day had an incomplete Word of God. During the same time when it was possible for the apostles to receive direct messages from God, there were individuals in the church of Corinth who received messages from God in a tongue. The messages could have been in the form of a prayer, praise, or a revelation. Howbeit, it was a message from God, therefore, it was an addition to the written Word of that time. In the center of the discourse on the phenomenon of tongues (I Corinthians 14:21), is a reference to the Old Testament law wherein God had written that through tongues He would speak to the people and they would not listen. God speaks about tongues in Deuteronomy 28. Moses addressed Israel when they were about to enter the promised land. He warned them that they would not be content with the Gospel he brought them, "Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things" (Deuteronomy 28:47). The result of their rebellion against God was punishment. This is declared in the remaining verses of Deuteronomy 28. Verses 48 and 49 summarize the warning: Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee. The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand. This is the passage of law referred to in I Corinthians 14 in regards to the tongues phenomenon. The ten tribes of Israel were destroyed by their enemy the nation of Assyria after Israel had engaged in spiritual harlotry with the Assyrians. As a result of their spiritual rebellion, God caused the nation of Assyria, a nation whose language Israel did not understand, to destroy them. God gave a final warning of this a few years before it happened. The warning is found in Isaiah 28:11-12. For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. The sequel to God's judgment on Israel occurred 122 years later. The nation of Judah ran like a harlot after Babylon, a heathen nation whose language they did not understand, and Babylon is the nation that destroyed Judah in the year 587 B.C. A few years earlier they had been warned by the prophet Jeremiah. Jeremiah 5:15-17: Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the LORD; it is a mighty nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say. Their quiver is as an open sepulchre, they are all mighty men. And they shall eat up thine harvest, and thy bread, which thy sons and thy daughters should eat: they shall eat up thy flocks and thine herds: they shall eat up thy vines and thy fig trees: they shall impoverish thy fenced cities, wherein thou trustedst, with the sword. God is focusing on a nation "whose language thou knowest not." This passage, too, is referred to in the ominous language of I Corinthians 14:21. God has established the phenomenon of tongues, recorded in I Corinthians 12, 13, and 14, as a testing arena for the end-time church. God gave the true gift of tongues briefly in the church at Corinth so that the end-time churches' fidelity or infidelity to the Word of God could be discovered. Adam and Eve were permitted to eat of every tree of the garden except one. God provided lavish blessings of fragrant and delicious fruits of the trees to satisfy the physical needs of man. Lucifer wanted man to serve Satan rather than God, and he tempted Adam and Eve into thinking they were missing something important if they did not taste the fruit of the one tree that had been placed off-limits. Throughout the Bible, the church is reminded of the lavish blessings that attend salvation. The blessings are far more than anyone deserves; they are so wonderful that our hearts should continuously praise God. One minor, incidental blessing, briefly enjoyed by a few people in the church at Corinth (that is, being able to receive an additional message from God in an unknown language), was given before the magnificent blessings of the whole Word of God were available. God maximized His communicative blessings to mankind by giving us the entire record of His will (the New Testament and the Old Testament), and He placed off-limits the minor blessing enjoyed by the church at Corinth. Sorry for the long remark, Please brothers and sisters trust in the Bible alone. GOD Bless and may He give you wisdom.

-- paolo V. (vze3ffrz@verizon.net), March 29, 2003.

Dear paolo,

While I agree with many of your remarks and conclusions, your basic premise - that we are to trust in the Bible alone - is untenable, as proven by the ungodly state of confusion, conflict, and doctrinal chaos among churches which attempt to follow this unbiblical manmade tradition. Attempting to follow the Bible alone, without a source of authoritative interpretation, is what has caused the fragmentation of Protestantism into thousands of conflicting denominations, in direct violation of the stated will of God - "Father, that they all may be ONE, even as you Father and I are ONE". Unity in unchanging truth is what Jesus said would identify His Church, and unity in unchanging truth can be found in only one place - the Church Jesus founded, which history plainly identifies as the Holy Catholic Church - the one that follows the Biblical teaching that the Church is the foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15), and rejects the manmade 16th century tradition of sola scriptura.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 29, 2003.

Paul -deleting the truth from this BB does not delete the truth.

-- Daniel (love@truth.org), March 30, 2003.

Paul: That is ok to believe that, but I can not convince you other. If you believe that as truth then you just admitted that you worship man and not God! I say this hummbly. Don't get offended Bro! I will no way in the world step up and say "God I hear you but I think I am a little bit smarter than you!" I come from a huge Catholic family and ever since God woke me up spiritually, was when I began to understand the Kingdom Of God. I once thoght the Bible was just a book that a bunch of men wrote. But for some reason this incredible hunger to know truth came upon me at of nowhere. I was never a religious person and I hated to read! Most of all I never feared God! I can't explain exactly how God saves a person, but I tell you one thing God does all the work! There wasn't one tiny bit of action I possibly did of my own to get my self saved. My whole family was shocked that I became Like this. You don't understand how grateful I am that God gave a filthy sinner like me weho deserves to go to hell, SALVATION. Now my whole life revolves around the LORD only and nobody else. Well getting back to my point, I decided to do my research on the Bible to see it it truly was inspired by God. You see my problem was, there was toooooo many translations of the Bible. Well scientist or archeoligist, I am not sure, found an ancient copy of the old testament, over 500BC. Did you know that the King James Bible was the only translation which this ancient copy was almost perfectly identical to the actuall Holy cannon. What's awesome about the King James version is that man assigned a number to every word found in the original scrolls. Therefore when I read the King James Bible, with tools like a concordance(an index) I can actually test the translation with its original Hebrew word or Greek! It is like knowing exactly what we have in our ancient copies. So I decided to read the Bible and It was very difficult at first because the King James version uses the old English style. As my intense desire to find truth I learned that the Bible has this incredible cohesiveness and harmony to it that It "blew my mind" Every single word and verse(except italisized words) was purposely put there by God. Unless the Holy spirit gives you understanding, one will use humanly wisdom to TRY to understand the Bible. I was shocked in how perfectly He chooses words and fits them to hide spiritual truthes. God gives us a hidden calendar and actually makes it possible to determine the age of the earth. You don't understand i am in AWE! I could read the Bible 10 time and always find something I missed. The Bible is infinitely written and no way in the world man wrote these words. Yes God used man to pen the Bible, but every single word chosen is God's word! I also realized when an unsaved person approaches the Bible with unbelief, and searches for contradictions, God will reveal plenty. Yous see I can show you a handful of verses which are plain apparent contradictions, but without careful study these verses will not harmonize! People come to me with contradictions and later as I study the Bible, God begins to make me understand how to fit these verses so there will not be any. The Bible teches us to compare scripture with scripture. Finally I took out my catholic bible and decided to look over the the books of Apocrypha. The way these books are written sounds like men are speaking and not God. They seem to talk about Biblical events but these books are missing this cohesiveness that only God with his infinite wisdom could have made within the Bible. I hope I am not offending anyone. Not only that, God sort of puts His signature in His WORD to let us know it is His words. For example through out the entire Old Test. and New Test. God would use language like "thus said the LORD" this is just one example. I will not treat these books as inspired by God! Don't forget this verse God tells us when He ended the Bible: Revelations:22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. " One last thing, we must be careful in what the Bible says. Symbolically, God speaks of the churches of the church age as the temple, as Israel, as Jerusalem, and as Judah. First of all, the Bible clearly identifies the true believers as Jews in the spiritual sense. That is the reason why, in turn, He identifies them with a temple, Israel, Jerusalem, and Judea. All of these entities originally were identified only with the Jews. In Romans 2:28-29, God declares: For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. A true Jew by God's definition is anyone who has become saved. In these important verses, God is showing us that in God's sight a true Jew is not a blood descendant of Abraham, who shows this by physical circumcision, but a true Jew by God's definition is anyone who has been circumcised in the heart. That is, his sins have been cut off. That means a true Jew by God's definition is anyone who has become saved. This truth is reinforced by the language of Galatians 3:7: Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Abraham was the progenitor of the physical nation of Jews. In this verse God is reiterating what we already read in Romans 2:28-29, that a true Jew is someone who has begun to trust in the Lord Jesus. To be sure that we understand this, the Bible declares in Galatians 3:26-29: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. In this passage, God is indicating that each and every believer whether physically a Jew or a Gentile is spiritually a descendant of Abraham, thus making him spiritually a Jew. This is easily understood if we recognize that those who believe are sons of God, as we read in Romans 8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. As sons of God we are sons of Christ who in His flesh was the son of David, the son of Abraham (Matthew 1:1). Since Christ is the son of David who was a Jew, and we are sons of Christ, then we who are saved are also sons of David, and therefore, we are also Jews. We can now understand why Jesus identifies the believers with the temple, with Israel, with Jerusalem, and with Judah. These are all entities entirely identified with Jesus. Let us therefore, first of all, learn what the Bible says of believers being the temple. In I Corinthians 3:16, we read: Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? The context of this verse begins in verse 9, where we read: For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. The foundation of the temple is indicated in verse 11: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. The building blocks that are built into this temple are indicated in verse 12: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; It should be immediately apparent that the true believers are typified by gold, silver, and precious stones. They are the lively (living) stones who are built up into a spiritual house (I Peter 2:5). On the other hand, the wood, hay, and stubble must relate to the church members who are still unsaved. Fire does not destroy gold or silver, but fire will utterly destroy wood, hay, and stubble. Thus, the Bible is teaching that the spiritual temple is a spiritual house representing the churches and congregations, but within those churches there are people who are truly saved (gold, silver, and precious stones), and those who are not saved (wood, hay, and stubble). The churches that have existed throughout the season of the church age are also typified as spiritual Israel. In Galatians 6:16, we read of believers that they are the Israel of God. In Revelation 7, God speaks of 144,000 of all the tribes of Israel who were sealed (Revelation 7:4). The Bible then names 12,000 from each of 12 tribes of Israel, but the tribe of Daniel is not named. One tribe had to remain unnamed because in actuality, there were 13 tribes. There were 12 sons of Jacob who became the heads of tribes, but Joseph was given the two tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh, who were the sons of Joseph. Therefore, the total number of tribes was 13. Therefore, when Revelation 7:4 speaks of 144,000 of all the tribes of Israel, it is immediately apparent that the 12 tribes named are actually the complete fulness of the Israel of God, which includes all the churches of the church age. The numbers 12,000 and 144,000 symbolically represent the complete fulness of all those who would become saved in the early Pentecostal rain season of the New Testament church era. It might be noted that the 144,000 are presented in Revelation 14 as those who have their Father's name written on their foreheads (Revelation 14:1), they were redeemed from the earth (Revelation 14:3), and they are the firstfruits (Revelation 14:4). These same 12 tribes are spoken of in James 1:1: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. These 12 tribes are also called firstfruits in James 1:18: Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. The book of James particularly focuses upon those in the churches during the church age season. We have learned thus far that the members of the churches and congregations throughout the church age are typified as a spiritual temple and by a spiritual Israel consisting of 12 tribes. The reason that the book of James speaks of "firstfruits" is that this book is particularly focused upon those within the congregation during the church age. Of course, every book of the Bible is for all believers, including those saved during the latter rain. However, the book of James particularly focuses upon those in the churches during the church age season. It's harsh language is to help those in the churches examine if they are truly saved. Also, we read the accusation of those in the churches as "adulterers and adulteresses" (James 4:4). The unsaved in the churches are still in spiritual fornication against the law of God (Romans 7:1-3). So, God provides the book of James as a warning particularly to those in the churches. With this in mind, we can see why James 1:18 was written the way it was. We also know the members of churches and congregations were typified by Jerusalem and Judea. In Revelation 21:2 we read: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. This verse is speaking of the whole body of believers, throughout eternity future we are called the new Jerusalem. In Galatians 4:25-26, the Bible speaks of a present Jerusalem: For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. The context shows that the Jerusalem which now is consists of individuals who are still in spiritual bondage. That is, they have not become saved even though God calls them a Jerusalem. But these verses also speak of a Jerusalem above. This Jerusalem can only relate to those who have become saved. We read in Ephesians 2:4-6: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: In principle, the true believers are seated in the heavenlies with Christ even though we live on this earth serving as ambassadors of Christ. Thus, the body of believers on earth is made up of Jerusalem above (those who are saved), and Jerusalem which now is (those who think they are saved but are still in bondage to sin). These individuals make up the churches and congregations. Therefore, the churches are spiritually called Jerusalem. Thus, we see a parallel as God speaks of the churches as a temple and as Jerusalem. In the temple those who were saved were called gold, silver, and precious stones. They are called the Jerusalem above. However, also in the temple there are those who are called wood, hay, and stubble. They are called the Jerusalem which now is. The churches are also called Judea because Jerusalem was the capital of Judea. We read in Luke 21:20-21: And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. These verses link Jerusalem and Judea together. We read in the Biblical account of the spiritual condition of these congregations that already the church in Ephesus had lost its first love. To love God is to keep His commandments (John 14:21, 24). Thus, they were already beginning to teach doctrines that were not based faithfully upon the Bible. So God tells them if they don't repent, He will remove their candlestick. If their candlestick is removed, it means there is no light of the true Gospel coming from that church. They will have become a dead church. Fact is, the church of Sardis had already become a dead church even though some true believers were still a part of it (Revelation 3:1). God was almost ready to vomit the church of Laodicea out of His mouth (Revelation 3:16). The church of Thyatira was troubled by a spiritually adulterous woman God called Jezebel (Revelation 2:20). The church at Pergamos had allowed a wicked group called the Nicolaitans to operate in the church. Indeed, these have been the kinds of problems that have existed in the churches throughout the church age. At times, it would become so bad that the churches were entirely removed. The seven churches of Revelation, for example, finally ceased to exist. However, because the churches were God's method of evangelizing the world, new churches would be established even as some churches ceased to function. God in His mercy and patience continued to use churches as His means to get the Gospel into the world. The Bible discloses the fact that following the season of the early Pentecostal rain (the church age), which has brought in the harvest of the firstfruits, there would be a time of a spiritual famine of hearing the Word of God. This would also be a time of judgment on the churches. This time symbolically would be three and a half years in duration. It is called the time of Great Tribulation. This time of Great Tribulation will be immediately followed by the return of Christ and the end of the world. We read in Matthew 24:21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And in Matthew 24:29, God declares: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: This Great Tribulation period is not only described in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, but it is also described in the language of Revelation 13, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, and many other Scriptures. It is typified by the 70 year period beginning with the death of King Josiah in 609 B.C. and ending with the conquering of Babylon by the Medes and Persians in 539 B.C. It is a time typified by God bringing judgment upon Judah because they had refused to remove the high places where heathen gods were worshipped. God had warned in Leviticus 26:30: And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. He reiterated this warning in Ezekiel 6: 3, 4: And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places. And your altars shall be desolate, and your images shall be broken: and I will cast down your slain men before your idols. The character of the events occurring in the 70 year period from 609 B.C. to 539 B.C. was the total rule of Babylon over Israel. When the Israelites were taken captive into Babylon they had no temple, no holy city, and no priesthood. They were entirely separated from Jerusalem and all the sacred activity that had previously been actively taking place there. Likewise, the character of the Great Tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 is that Satan has occupied the churches and has become victorious over the saints. In Revelation 13:7, we read: And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. In Daniel 7:25 God prophesied: And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. In Daniel 8:11, 12 the Bible declares: Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. These passages show that the time was to come that God would give Satan the victory over the churches and congregations. This is the End of the Church Age, when Satan is given complete victory over the external church. When we understand that Satan is given victory over the external church which consists of all the local congregations, we wonder how this can be. Don't we read in Revelation 20:2, 3:And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. We must, therefore, ask the question: How is it possible that Satan is able to gain victory over the churches during the Great Tribulation? Did he finally figure out a plan whereby he could do this? The answer is, No! It is God who loosed Satan as a judgment upon the churches. We read about this loosing of Satan in Revelation 9:1-4: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. The star that fell from heaven can only be Christ. He alone has the key that opens and shuts (Revelation 3:7). Very deliberately Christ loosed Satan in the sense that He again allowed Satan to frustrate the preached Word so that it could not save. The time was coincidental with the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit from the churches. Once he was loosed, Satan as the constant enemy of Christ, of course could be expected to immediately attack the body of Christ which is found in the local churches all over the world. Thus, we can know that it is only because God is orchestrating the details of the Great Tribulation and the end of the world that Satan can become so victorious during the time of Great Tribulation. Even as God finally destroyed Judah and Jerusalem in 587 B.C. because it had not removed the high places, so, too, God indicates that the church, too, will be destroyed because it does not remove the high places. Remember we had read in II Corinthians 10:4-6:

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

As we learned earlier, the high places of the church are the doctrines held and taught by the church which are not true to the Bible. Some of these are imbedded in the Confessions but additional wrong doctrines are also taught. Divorce for fornication is an example of such a perversion of the law of God.

Even as Israel refused to permanently destroy its high places, so, too, the churches and denominations of our day refuse to remove from the Confessions and from their doctrinal teachings those doctrines which are not true to the Bible. As we learned earlier, this refusal to remove wrong doctrines from their Confessions and other doctrinal teachings of the church may be a result of the false notion that the church is the pillar and ground of truth. Please Trust in the LORD only! Read the Bible and make that your only authority, don't worship man, don't even trust me! Trust in what the Bible teaches. Only the Holy Spirit could make you understand! I pray for my family all the time. It is sad because they put their trust in the churches and their Priests, but do not test their techings with the Bible. Do not let satin fool you! Kill your pride bro! Our righteousness is like filthy rags to God. There none, no not one who seeks after God!!!!! After God saves you then you realize wait a minute I can't take any credit! And that's when you repent and good works follow. The moment I take my eyes off Christ I fall. I am weak! The only faith I have Is the Faith Of the Lord! It's not my faith. Believe me you will know when God draws you and begins to open your eys. Peace, In Christ Paolo.

-- Paolo (vze3ffrz@verizon.net), March 30, 2003.

Dear paolo,

"If you believe that as truth then you just admitted that you worship man and not God!"

A: on the contrary, by listening to the Church, I worship God as God told us to worship Him. By seeking truth in the Bible alone, a tradition that no Christian on earth ever heard of before the 16th century, you are worshipping God as Luther told you to, and not as God Himself has dictated.

"I can't explain exactly how God saves a person, but I tell you one thing God does all the work! There wasn't one tiny bit of action I possibly did of my own to get my self saved."

A: Amen to that! Salvation is a free gift of God that cannot be earned or merited - and so has His Holy Church consistently taught for 2,000 years. And so will it continue to teach, long after denominational religion has passed away.

"Now my whole life revolves around the LORD only and nobody else"

A: Amen again! Likewise the life of His Holy Church. However, if following the lord means living in the truth, you still have to deal with the denominational problem. Truth cannot conflict with truth.

"Did you know that the King James Bible was the only translation which this ancient copy was almost perfectly identical to the actuall Holy cannon"

A: Sorry to insert reality into your romantic notions, but the International Bible Society, a Protestant organization, published a list of over 3,000 translation errors in the original King James version, some of them rather minor, such as using the word "candles' instead of "lamps" (candles had not yet been invented); and other mistranslations a bit more bizarre, such as using "unicorns" as the english translation of the Hebrew phrase for "horned beasts" (the correct translation would have been "oxen"). The translators chosen by King James simply were not expert in the ancient languages, which is why the KJV is the least accurate translation still in widespread use today (although the Reformed KJV did correct many, though not all, of the original mistranslations).

"Unless the Holy spirit gives you understanding, one will use humanly wisdom to TRY to understand the Bible"

A: Given the widespread doctrinal conflicts in Protestantism, I would have to take this statement of yours as an admission that the Holy Spirit is NOT providing understanding through personal interpretation.

"Finally I took out my catholic bible and decided to look over the the books of Apocrypha. The way these books are written sounds like men are speaking and not God"

A: Don't you think it's a bit odd that no-one noticed this during the first 1500 years of Christianity, when the Apocrypha was accepted as canonical by all Christians? Can you honestly think that "the way these books sound" to you is of any significance whatsoever, compared to the greatest theologians and scriptura scholars of history??

"Don't forget this verse God tells us when He ended the Bible: Revelations:22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book"

A: Since the Apocrypha was part of the Holy Bible from day one, this passage from Revelation obviously forbids removal of these books from the Bible, which your human founder did. It also forbids adding words to the remaining text, which your founder also did. He also attempted to remove several books from the New Testament, which demonstrates his lack of authority and wisdom in removing the Old Testament books.

"As we learned earlier, the high places of the church are the doctrines held and taught by the church which are not true to the Bible"

A: Let's be reasonable here. First, the many conflicting teachings of Protestantism cannot be "true to the Bible", since they conflict with one another, and therefore they must also conflict with any objective standard against which they are compared. Secondly, it is not possible that anything in Catholic teaching conflicts with the Bible, since the Catholic Church alone decided which writings would be included in the Bible, and certainly did not include writings which conflicted with its own teaching.

"Trust in what the Bible teaches. Only the Holy Spirit could make you understand!"

A: Agreed! And since the Holy Spirit is obviously NOT providing understanding through denominational tradition, I listen for His voice where He said it would be found - in His own Church, the Pillar and Foundation of truth, where the fullness of truth exists in UNITY.

"I pray for my family all the time. It is sad because they put their trust in the churches and their Priests, but do not test their techings with the Bible"

A: All teachings of the Catholic Church are tested against its earlier teachings and writings, including the Bible. It is sad that you have nothing against which you can test your beliefs except your own interpretations of the Bible, which amounts to using your own beliefs as a test for your own beliefs.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 30, 2003.

Paul I appreciate your response and I always listen to others especially if I am in error. There many truths that the Holy Spirit allows me to understand as I read the scriptures. One thing is I am terrible in debating with others, and I try not to engage in debates. The last thing I want to talk about is my opinions and feelings. I never put my trust in my opinions. I beseech the Lord all the time for wisdom. One thing I learned is no way in the world I could convince people to truth. You see every answer you responded was through "the teachings of the Catholic church" Bro! no man is infallible. All I was trying to let you understand is the Bible was inspired by God! "the WORD became flesh" Everything I brought up to you, I try proving my answers thru the BIBLE. Any truth we think is truth, must be tested through the BIBLE alone! The only authority. I also proved to you that when you say mention CHURCH, the Bible talks about A spiritual church which Christ is the pillar and ground of truth, with his true believers(the temple) As God saves His elect, His temple continues to be built until the last elect gets saved. What you claim violates the Bible. So if your teachings contradict the the Bible, we must hummbly say, well I must drop these teachings and follow what Christ says. We must be obediant to what God teaches or else you will be worshiping man! If the external physical churches (suppose to be a representation of the spiritual eternal Church of God) Is the pillar and ground of truth, why does God describe intensely about the 7 churches in Rev: chapts. 1 thru 3. God destroyed these churches because of unfaithful ness. We can't pick and choose what we like in the Bible. We must harmonize every verse that applies to our subject. Remember God purposely put these verses to be understood more than one way. That is why we compare scripture with scripture to see if we are on the right track. If you feel the Church is invinceable, then what do you do with these verses, 1Peter:4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 2Thessalonians:2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Mathew:24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: All of these verses are warning us to flee out of the churches because God is using satin to judge the churches. This is the Great tribulations, the last event before Christ returns. One last thing is about the King James Bible, the bad translations could be found because we can use a concordance to look for the original text (hebrew or Greek) We must study very careful. Peace!!!

-- Paolo (vze3ffrz@verizon.net), April 01, 2003.

Theresa, I don't deny your religious fervor and honesty. I was part of those charismatic groups in 1983. I like Emerald said, couldn't say gibberish.

I, like Saint Paul believe that tongues edify the person, not the CHURCH. Corinthians Chapter 14 starts Paul thoughts on the subject. Verse 13 states that one who speakes in tongues must also interpret what is said. He states in verse 27 that no more than 3 should speak in tongues in the congregation, and if there is no interpreter, keep quiet. In chapter 12 prophecy is ahead of tongues. For Paul, the most important gift was love. Ch. 13.

It is interesting that Emerald, like me, notice the disappearance of the prayer to saint Michael in the 1960s, the one composed by Leo XIII in the 1880s that was composed to avoid the destruction of the Church.

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 01, 2003.

In my church, we pray to Saint Michael at the end of each Mass.

God bless,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), April 01, 2003.

Paul, I covet your gift of teaching. I thank God for your ability to explain and defend the faith. I pray our ears be opened.

Yes, Isabel, the sanctificatory gifts as listed in Isaiah 11:2, when,imparted to us in the Sacrament of Confirmation, are those sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit we move from interiorly. I prided myself as young Catholic in memorizing them. Tragically for me, they were in my head and not in my heart, enabling me to change and guarding me against the world's enticements. Never the less,thankfully, they were deposited there, and later as an adult,the Holy Spirit 're-activated'them,so to speak, {made them come alive} as I gave Him permission.He's such a gentleman, He waits , He needs our permission to move us.

Did you hear that? Once we give Him permission to move in us tremendous blockages come down and His life-changing power is unleashed. That's why to say the gift of tongues, and the other charismatic gifts {as listed in 1Cor. 12 and 14} are not communal is simply an ignorant statement. They are offered for the maintenance and upbuilding of the Church. {as earlier mentioned in the CCC}.

And as Gail states, all under charity, all authentic gifts {we can't judge who is faking, that's a waste of time,and prideful too} are of charity, as a matter of fact- the highest form of charity-as the aim is to intercede for our brethren,to 'take on' their pain and suffering, and to move them out of it. {unless of course it is ordained by God for redemptive purposes}. But most people's suffering is the result of their brokenness in their spiritual life, the breaks in our relationship with God, the ruined image of God,that which He seeks to restore. This is healing.

And as Bowerman repeats, tongues is the gift which opens us up to those other gifts which lead to this healing and freedom and restoration of the image of God in us.Why the prejudice against this movement of the Holy Spirit? I suggest to those with past bad experiences to forgive those who in the 60's made mistakes, get over it and seek what the Holy Spirit may be offering. Don't stay in your prejudice and ignorance.

Can we not see this revival of the Holy Spirit's gifts countered and counters the attacks against the Church?

In our parish, those who cling to the St. Michael prayer, and daily pray the rosary {myself included}, those who love our Lady, those who know our Lord in the Eucharist.. are many of the ones who excercise their gift of tongues daily.

Forgive me, I tell you, as I walk in the halls of my high school where I work as at teacher's aid, there are moments as I press against the bodies of these kids, I'm interiorly led to pray in tongues fiercely, fiercely as in a war, only God knows what is happening, but this is how I'm enabled to "pray always, unceasingly, in the Spirit", as we are commanded to do by scripture. In faith I know the atmosphere is changed, the hearts of the kids are changed.

This is Catholic.This is what Christ shed His Blood for, this is life in the Holy Spirit.

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), April 02, 2003.

Why the prejudice against this movement of the Holy Spirit?

Because I don't think it is from the Holy Spirit.

Don't stay in your prejudice and ignorance.

This just doesn't apply.

This is Catholic.This is what Christ shed His Blood for, this is life in the Holy Spirit.

You mean for this Charasmatic thing or the life in the Holy Spirit? To me, that's two different things. I'm absolutely certain that Christ didn't shed His Blood for the Charasmatic Movement. For those in it, yes, but for for Charasmatic-ism. For life in the Holy Spirit? Depends on what you mean by that. If it is in the here-and- now, then by all means no He didn't, because His kingdom was not of this earth. He made that very clear.

Christ shed His blood because we are a bunch of fallen schmucks. Whether anyone likes it or not, you're all down here groveling in the mud with Emerald because you all are in the same position I am in. Some might not like having to associate with ignorant, predjudiced people like me, but if you don't, you aren't participating in the Mystical Body of Christ.

You are in the same position I'm in, Theresa. We are supposed to die with Christ, to pick up our cross and follow Him. That means suffering and death in the here and now. This spirit-escapism is not the essence of Catholicism. There are no rewards in this life.

I know I'm caustic, but I don't apologize for it... I think it is more important to hold the line and die doing it.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), April 02, 2003.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, Emerald. I understand that the gifts have been abused, and sometimes tend to divide the faithful among the haves and have not's, but there is a legitimate spirit-empowered life for the believer.

Like Ms. T said, the spirit urges you strongly to intercede, you don't know what to pray, but He (the Spirit) does know. He makes you part of the miraculous, the supernatural. He invites you in to where He is working. Just like (I think it was you) who said earlier that you were given the memory of someone out of the blue, and then his name came about some very short time later. The gift of tongues would be perfect in that instance. You would have begun to pray in the spirit PERFECTLY that which you did not "know".

I have heard some mention "jibberish" as a reason to discount the legitimate move of the Spirit. I have heard some tongues which I did not think was authentic, but I know many many many who ARE authentic.

Love to all,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), April 02, 2003.

See, what it is Gail, that seems to be coming to the forefront... at least from my perspective, is that people are implying they know the will of the Holy Spirit, or know exactly how it is that He manifests Himself.

Ven. Mary of Agreda has some good thoughts on Pentecost which is probably a good read and touches upon some of these things.

Do I believe in the power and presence of the Holy Spirit? Hell yeah. I just don't want to speculate too much on when and where it occurs, and how it manifests itself. I'll take a stab at it here and there, but it's only an opinion of my part, like what I mentioned about that person that died. I can sense certain things here and there, but they might be just common awareness. Why seek these abilities out? God will give you whatever you need when you need it. It just doesn't square with me to seek these things out.

But look at the danger in this. We've got demons that can do some amazing things, and we already know they are masters of deception. When we step out of the realm of believing in the power of the Holy Spirit, and on into the realm of knowing the actions and the supposed direction of the Holy Spirit specifically, either individually or as a group, and involving ourselves heavily in this supposed awareness, we are charting some damn dangerous waters. We aren't saved yet; we are vulnerable and quite easily decieved.

Answers to prayer come slowly and require patience, if we ever see any visible answer to begin with. If a soul is in good standing, the prayers get heard no doubt, but the answer is usually never exactly what we bargained for. After all, none of us really knows precisely what is best for ourselves.

But anyways, on the other hand, take the oigee board for instance. The demons are always Johnny on the spot. Bargains with the entities bring fast rewards in the here and now, and always carry a deadening sense of well being.

It is a completely legitimate question... which ones are we playing with here? And more specifically, these "gifts", do they tend to placate me somehow? Do they at all involve the avoiding of pain and suffering that might be necessary for me in the course of picking up my cross and following Christ? Because from God-knows-when, suffering has always been considered a mainstay of Catholic thinking, and integral to Christianity... not the avoidance of suffering.

I believe in the Holy Spirit manifesting Himself, but to seek out a capability in this regard... that's out of line with Catholicism. To seek a sign, that is.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), April 02, 2003.

Hello all and God Bless This response are for those believers who truley fear God and Loves the Lord with all there heart. Please don't let Satin decieve you. The answers are in the Bible. Many responses I read in this chat, give their opinions based on their church teachings. We should be backing up all our answers thru scriptures alone. The WORD OF GOD! I speak hummbly and not judgementally. If i didn't care I would of left already. Just hear me out and check out the scriptures I give you. We can't pick and choose any scripture we like and claim this is what God is teaching. We have to study all the scriptures that apply. In Mark 16:19 it says, "So when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them He was received up into heaven and He sat down at the right hand of God." In Mark 16:20, it goes on to say, "And they went out and preached everywhere while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the word by the signs that followed". Now, in verses 17 and 18 the Lord is saying that they are going to do some signs. Verse 20 tells us what the Lord was doing by giving those signs. What did the Lord do by giving them the signs? The Lord confirmed the word! That's what it says! The Lord worked with them and confirmed the word. How did He confirm the word? How does God confirm His word? How did He confirm His word to the disciples? Read Mark 16:20! "By the signs that followed". So what is the purpose of miracles, including tongues? They are a sign to confirm the word! Keep that firmly in your mind. In Hebrews 2:3,4, it says, "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed??," past tense, "...it was confirmed to us by those who heard. God also bearing witness with them both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His will." Again, why was God working these miracles? To confirm the word. Now let me just spend a moment explaining that. Let me say that New Testament signs, as we study the characteristics of New Testament miracles, were nothing like the forgeries we see today. The miracles we see supposedly done in Jesus' name today, in character and quality, are being done by Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, transcendental meditationists, atheists, American Indians, pagans, heathens, and idolaters all over the world. But the New Testament miracle was of such a nature, such a character and a quality, that when it was performed a pagan would give up his religion and listen to this true New Testament miracle worker!, that Christian preacher, because of what he just did. And that was still only to prove that he was a follower of Jesus, and not necessarily that all that preacher's word could be trusted without question. So the Lord confirmed the Word as they went preaching the Word. When someone would say, "Alright, how do I know you're from Jesus?" They could answer, "Watch this, and they would strike someone blind, raise somebody from the dead, or speak with tongues. The nature of their miracles was such that the evidence was undeniable. All I want to establish at this point is that the purpose for miracles was to confirm the word. New Testament miracles were to validate the preaching in New Testament times. Must a man have miraculous gifts to have, or be filled with, the Holy Spirit today? No. Because as we'll learn, if the word we preach today was already confirmed there is no further need for the doing of miracles. Keep in mind what we've already learned concerning the purpose of miracles. They were for confirmation of the Word. Notice all of those passages were in the past tense because the job had already been accomplished during the days when the New Testament was given. The job had been accomplished according to the way the New Testament writers were talking by the time they were writing their letters! Also consider the case of John the baptizer. In Luke 1:15, it says that John was "filled with the Holy Spirit". While in John 10:41 it also says that "John never did a single miracle." Back to verse four of Acts two. "They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues." What were these "other tongues?" Literally, it's "languages." This word "tongues" comes from the Greek word "glossa." We get our English word "glossary" from "Glossa." What is a glossary? Words! That's what it is. The word "glossary" stands for something you look in when you're looking for the words of a book. The glossary of a book is a listing of the words that book especially uses. So the word "glossa" stood for "language" or "tongue". The word "tongue" is also used today to describe a language. You've probably heard it said today that people "speak several tongues fluently." Or concerning a person living in Africa, "What African dialect do they use in that part of Africa?" Or, "what African tongue do they use?" So we use the term "tongue" even in our own modern vernacular. You've probably heard the word used in the context of the phrase "all the many tribes and tongues of the earth." This is talking about languages. So try to keep that in mind as we study through the subject of tongues. The word "tongue" here in Acts 2:4 doesn't mean some kind of vain babbling of a religious experience. It does not. The word "tongues" in the Bible was never meant to represent the vain babbling of a religious experience. The word "tongue" simply means a language. So what were the apostles doing? Vain babbling? No! What they were doing was speaking in languages. And we can see that point more clearly as we progress through the text. Where did the denominations get speaking in their so?called tongues from? Where does the babbling come from? It's an emotionally induced experience. It comes on through the same process that even atheists go through on occasion. People that are under intense stress, people who are self hypnotized do it, people who want to do it, some people have been found to experience this simply because they got so worked up??not even in a religious experience or religious setting. You just have to get a person worked up enough. Children are especially prone to it. If you get them really excited enough and really scared, they can just rattle off an entire string of vain babbling nonsense. I've often witnessed children rattle off such gibberish. A child getting so scared his father was about to hit him and wanting to explain himself blurts out this whole big garbleygoop that doesn't make any sense at all. The point of this is, the tongues that people experience today come from an emotional experience. Let's keep reading in Acts two and verse five. "Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven and when this sound occurred, the multitude came together." You have the apostles speaking with other tongues, people heard this going on and said, "Hey, you have to listen to this..." So a multitude comes over, "and were bewildered because they were each one hearing them speak in his own language,",(verse six). Verse 5,"Now they were devout men from every nation under heaven," from all over the world??Jews, but from all over the world. Each of them, of course could recognize their own language. What were they doing in Jerusalem? According to true Judaism, you've got to make that yearly trek back to Jerusalem, to the temple; which a Jew can't do today, because the temple no longer stands. It was destroyed in 70 A.D. There's nothing today to return to. But back before 70 A.D. the Jews were required to annually return to the temple. "And they, each one, heard him speak in his own language." Verse seven goes on to say, "and were amazed and marveled saying, `Why are not all of these who are speaking Galileans?'" Some people may not realize it but this was a reference to their education. Galileans were generally uneducated people. They were ignorant people, they weren't of the school of Jerusalem. Mary and the women mentioned as part of the 120 in Acts chapter one were from Bethany and other areas. But all of these who were speaking were Galileans. Mary and the other ones were obviously not involved in Acts two. There were not 120 speaking in tongues. Just the apostles who were from Galilee were there at Pentecost in Acts 2:1ff. Verse eight, "And how is it that we each hear them speak in our own language?" Now his own "language" in verse six, and his own "language" in verse 8 were both the word..."dialect", from the Greek word "dialectos." Is dialect a babbling? A dialect is something that you can understand, a DIALECT. It is language. So now you've got the two Greek words behind any word for "tongue" in the Bible. Just these two. Dialect and glossary; which are not vain babbling. Was this heavenly language? Yes, in that it was given from God. What language was it? Well, let's see, "there were Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, residents of Mesopatamia, Judea, Cappadocia, and Pontus and Asia, and Phrygia, and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the districts of Libya..." So they were heavenly only in the sense that these languages were given by God. But they were what kind of languages? They were languages of men. What was the purpose of this sign? We've already looked at those verses. Hebrews 2:3,4 and Mark 16:20, state that it's a proof, a confirmation, that God is speaking through them. Tongues are a sign to confirm the word. Let's continue. "...Libya, around Cyrene, and the visitors from Rome both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs, we hear them speak in our own tongues...," that's "glossa" again. Tongues or glossa, glossa or dialectos should be translated tongue or language. That's what they mean. "...speaking of the mighty deeds of God. And they continued in amazement and great perplexity saying to one another, `what does this mean?', but others were mocking saying, `these men are full of sweet wine!'" That sweet wine, by the way, is non?alcoholic. So what they were doing in saying, "These guys are drunk on grape juice." They were really chiding or mocking them, really ridiculing them. They weren't saying these guys were drunk on alcoholic wine, but on sweet wine. If you study Bible wines, you'll find that sweet wine was nearly always understood in history and in the Bible to be non? fermented wine, because it's fresh squeezed sweet juice. You can't ferment it unless you can decrease the sugar content and you have to go through a whole process to do that. It would be like saying for us, "These guys are drunk on grape juice." The sweet wine here is "sweet wine" or "new wine." That means it was just squeezed out of the grape and there was not enough time to ferment the juice. Verse 14, "But Peter taking his stand with the eleven..." Wait a minute! What happened to the 120 people that some say were also there? They weren't there! And this is yet another proof verse that it wasn't the 120, but rather the 12 alone! "...Peter took his stand with the 11..." Somebody might say, "Well, there were more than 11 languages, there were 14 languages spoken!" So what? So one of them or two of them spoke a couple of languages. Doesn't that make sense? "...and raising his voice and declared to them: Men of Judea, and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give heed to my words. For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; but this" (what this? what they had just seen!) "is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all mankind; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even upon my bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit and they shall prophesy. And I will grant wonders in the sky above, and signs on the earth beneath, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come. And it shall be, that every one who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Now as far as the "blood and fire, vapor and smoke, and the moon turned to blood and the sun to darkness" ??that has happened. If we study Matthew 24 and other such passages we find that this speech is often used to describe the destruction of a nation. The same speech was used in Isaiah 13:1ff which is speaking about the destruction of Babylon. In Matthew 24 it is the destruction of Jerusalem. When the Bible uses the words, "in the last days" we must ask, "Of what? The earth? Or the last days of the Jewish system?" So when Peter quotes Joel's prophecy concerning the "last days", he's not speaking about the end of the world. Rather Peter stated that Joel's prophecy had then been fulfilled during the last days of the Jewish system. He says "I want you to realize what is happening. God is fulfilling His prophecy and confirming His word." Now I want us to go into Corinthians because that's where most people have their major questions regarding tongues, and where the largest amount of discussion on the subject is considered. It is quite obvious to most Bible students that the Corinthians were greatly lacking in love. This can be clearly seen in the corrections they received from Paul in 1 Corinthians in every chapter. And because of their lack of love they held one man up above another. They refused to put away the evil and the disobedient; they would sue each other in courts of law. They were being unsubmissive to their husbands and treating their wives like rags. They were destroying their brethren eating things sacrificed to idols and more concerned about their stomach and their enjoyment than the soul of their brother. They were more concerned with their own Christian liberty now that they were free in Christ than being a slave to one another for the sake of Christ. They were having communion with idolaters. They were trying to be Christians and worship idols at the same time. And then again because of their lack of love they were abusing the Lord's Supper??not waiting for one another and so on and so forth. In Chapter 12 we see that they had a completely warped concept of the Body life in Christ and felt that each of them was an island unto himself, that they did not need the local Body into which God had placed each one of them. This is a very important lesson, "those members of the body which we deem less honorable on these we bestow more abundant honor and our unseemly members come to have more abundant seemliness". In chapter 13, Paul speaks directly about love. He says that they can have all kinds of gifts??"If I speak in tongues of men and of angles, but I do not have love I have become a noisy gong and a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and I have all knowledge and if I have all faith as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing." From these verses he is going to go on to share the contrasts between these gifts and love. They were priding themselves in their gifts and not in their love. One question that needs to be answered is from 1 Cor.13:1. A lot of people say that this is where your "tongues of angels" comes from. But notice he didn't say he spoke in either tongues of men or angels at this point, although he will later on state that he speaks in tongues of men (chapter 14). But that's not his point in chapter 13. His point wasn't that he speaks in tongues of men or angels. Paul’s point was "even if I did and didn't have love, I am nothing". So what is he saying? "If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge", which he's going to say he doesn't, (1 Cor.13:9,12), but "if I did and have not love it still doesn't profit me anything." That's his point. So what he was saying in verse 1 is "even if I speak with", (and some versions will add `even if', or `though I' King James), "tongues of men or of angels. He was elevating it saying "even if I spoke with angelic language and had not love, then I'm nothing!" So Paul didn't say that he did in fact speak an angelic language, or that anybody else did! But if he did and didn't have love, its worthless. You become a noisy gong and a clanging cymbal. Just an irritant. You become an irritation! That is all he is saying so far. Now he continues to teach concerning what love is. Verse 3, "And if I gave all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned and I do not have love, it profits me nothing." So Paul taught that love was doing, and giving, and feeding, and giving your body to be burned, but at the same time you can do all that without loving. You can do that for the praise of men as the Pharisees did in Matthew 6. And you'll get your reward, you'll get people to see you, and that's it. Paul will go on to tell us what love is. "Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly;... That's why Paul is going to say, "Look, put your emphasis where it needs to be. You're worried about tongues; you're worried about prophecy. Put your emphasis where it needs to be. Love. Love never fails!" Paul has told us why we should emphasize love. He has demonstrated it in verses 1?7. You must be concerned about love because if you don't have love, all these other things don't mean a thing; they are worthless; it profits you nothing. He's going to say, 4"love never fails"5, `but the things you put hope in??they're gonna fail!' 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 clinches the fact that there would be a time when tongues would end. "Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with." Isn't that what it says? When it says "if there will be prophecies they will", (the King James says), "fail." It literally means they will be done away with or fulfilled. The idea is completion. The idea is they are done away with because they have fulfilled their purpose. The New American Standard will say "they will be done away". So "whether it be gifts of prophecy, it'll be done away with, tongues, they shall cease, whether it be knowledge, it'll be done away with". Knowledge will be done away with? Yes, the revealed knowledge or revelation. Another good verse to use with this thought is Ephesians 3:3? 5. In these verses Paul said "that by reading you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ." Verse 5 goes on to say "which in other generations was not made known unto the sons of men as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit". How is revealed knowledge given? Through the Holy Spirit. To who? Unto his holy apostles and prophets, that's who. But clearly from 1 Cor.13:8?10 there was going to come a time when the gifts of prophecy and tongues and knowledge will cease. When? Verse 9, "for we know in part", literally, "for our knowledge is incomplete or imperfect". The word there is the opposite of what he is going to say in verse 10. He's saying right then, (back in the early days of the Corinthian church), "our knowledge is incomplete", `we don't know everything right now'. Now qualitatively did they have the Word of God? Yes! Quantitatively did they have all the Word of God? No! They were still getting revelation from God. For instance, in the early days of the New Testament church the apostles would establish a local church by baptizing a group of people, and then the apostles had to lay their hands on them before they left to make sure they had the gift of prophecy and revelation and the ability to speak in tongues, (which were given by the laying on of the apostles' hands). Allow me to elaborate on that point a bit. Acts 8, Acts 19, and Acts 6 all demonstrate that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the gift of prophecy and/or tongues was given??gifts of the Holy Spirit were given through the laying on of the apostles' hands. Now those who claim to have such gifts today would have to have some pretty old apostles lying around, or they're pretty old themselves! Simon the Sorcerer went to Peter and John and asked them to lay their hands on him, he saw that through the laying on of the apostles hands the Holy Spirit was given, that is what the verse says. Philip was the one who converted the Samaritans in Acts 8. But he couldn't give them the Holy Spirit. And they couldn't receive Him by praying. Peter and John had to come up and give them the gift of prophecy. Is that why the denominations say you have to receive the Spirit today too? Yes, they're saying that because they want to go beyond the Bible. There's more to what they're doing than meets the eye. They need continued revelation to authorize their deviation from the Bible. If they have continued revelation and continuing gifts then they feel they've got authorization to go beyond what the New Testament Scriptures say. They can say the Holy Spirit is continuing to reveal new and different things to them. And that's why they have the gifts, it's more than what meets the eye. Back to 1 Cor.13:9ff, "For we know in part", literally "our knowledge is partial or imperfect or incomplete, "and we prophecy imperfectly" or incompletely or partially. It's the same word. Why didn't he mention tongues there? Because tongues wasn't a quantitative thing. Tongues confirmed what? The word. What was the word? The knowledge and the prophecy. Notice that tongues are sandwiched between prophecy and knowledge in verse 8. Why? You have to answer with Mark 16:20. Answer with Hebrews chapters 2, 3, 4. Answer with 1 Cor. 14:22. Because they are a sign to confirm the word. To confirm what word? The knowledge and the prophecy! That is why the tongues would end when the prophecy was completed. And notice that's the way it's worded too. It doesn't say, "prophecy will cease, tongues will cease, knowledge will cease", it says, "prophecy will be done away with, tongues will cease, knowledge will be done away with." Done away with, cease; one means "fulfilled" the other means "stop". Why aren't tongues mentioned as being partial? Because tongues were just speaking forth the glorious works of God, it was not quantitative. That is, it was not something to be fulfilled other than for the purpose of confirming the Word. When they spoke in tongues was it so that others of different dialects would understand them? Yes, and as a sign to the unbelievers. Yet it was not for the purpose of speaking to others in their own language in order to communicate. All the Jews of Acts 2 spoke Hebrew, and the known world also spoke Greek at that time. Most of the people back then did speak several languages. Even the Galileans would have spoken at least two languages, Greek and Hebrew, because they were only allowed to speak Hebrew in the temple during the service. They could speak Aramaic amongst themselves and speak Greek in the world market. That's why you'll see Jesus speaking in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. When we read most of the New Testament Jesus is speaking most of that in Greek. He's not speaking Hebrew. Let's get back into the text of 1 Cor.13:8ff. So "we know in part and we prophecy incompletely." Again I want to explain in verse 9 why Paul didn't mention tongues. Because tongues are not something you do in part or in whole. They were something you did to confirm the knowledge and the prophecy. Verse 10, "But when the perfect comes, then the partial will be done away with". See the word partial again there? It's the same word, by the way, as "in part" in verse 9. Somebody says??and most denominations say??that Jesus is "the perfect" here. They teach that when Jesus comes then the tongues and the prophecy will be done away with. The tongues and the prophecy and the knowledge. That's how some get their authority for tongues speaking today. They say, "the perfect there is Jesus, and the partial will be done away with when Jesus comes. So until the 2nd coming of Christ, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge will be around." And that's where they get their justification from. Number one, the perfect is not a noun to describe a person, but a condition. It comes from the Greek word "tolelion", which means "complete or completeness; Maturity" It is the same word that is used in other passages talking about maturity or mature. To be a mature man is to be a "tolelion" man. If the verse was supposed to mean Jesus wouldn't it have said the perfect one? Yes, it would be more of a personal pronoun involved, but it isn't! Read the verse in the context. "Our knowledge is partial and our prophecy is partial, but when impartialness comes, the partiality is done away." Read the 2 verses. Literally, the perfect there means impartial or perfect or complete. It is the opposite of the word partial. So what Paul is saying is that knowledge is going to cease, "the knowledge is going to be done away with" ...Why? Well look, "we know in part, we prophecy in part" right now, ("now" being in the 1st century). Because they had still, quantitatively, not received it all yet. Although qualitatively they did. "But when completeness comes, when perfect comes, when maturity comes, when impartialness comes, the partial" ??WHAT WAS THE PARTIAL? THE KNOWLEDGE AND THE PROPHECY WAS PARTIAL, CORRECT? "THEN THE PARTIAL WILL BE DONE AWAY WITH!" This statement is so simple, yet people have made it say all kinds of things. By the way, that word for perfection does not mean without flaw. In our English vernacular we might think that it is talking about Jesus, being without flaw as "the perfect One". Some Pentecostal groups would say that, because our word for perfect concerns what? Not the amount!, but the quality. And that is not what this Greek word for perfection means. This Greek word is talking about quantity, rather than quality. Because it's coming from God, it's qualitatively perfect too. But one thing is for certain, the "perfect" is not a person, (ie. Jesus), but rather a condition. Let me ask you something now. When are tongues going to end? When what comes? Completeness or maturity! When the impartialness is done away. Impartialness of what? Read the text, verse 9. When inspired knowledge and prophecy were completely given. In other words, the knowledge, the prophecy, and tongues will all have to end at the same time. When is that? When the knowledge and the prophecy are complete? Correct! Let's see if Paul is talking about perfection as a person, (ie. Jesus), or as maturity. Which is he going to illustrate? That is the question. Wouldn't that be a logical question? Since there is discrepancy on it, is he talking about perfection as being maturity, like I say, or love as somebody else says, or Jesus as yet someone else says? Some people take a position, because they have been raised in Pentecostalism. They get converted, they want to hold to some old doctrines of Pentecostalism and they say this is Jesus and do you know what else they say? That this perfection is talking about Jesus, but that he came in AD70. So they still come up with ultimately the same final position. They come up with the position that tongues ended about AD70 or thereabouts toward the end of the 1st century. But how they got there was kind of like being able to hold on to this in the past and grasp that in the future and tie them together. I think they're just straining too much. They're going beyond what the text demands. Stay within the context and see if that's what Paul illustrates. Lets see if Paul is illustrating Jesus as perfection, or maturity as perfection. Let's see if he is illustrating love as perfection, or maturity as perfection . I say he is illustrating maturity or completeness. Verse 11, "When I was a child," (that is immaturity), "I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child. When I became a man, I did away with childish things." What is he saying then? What is his becoming a man equal to? "When that which is perfect comes", right? So what is his illustration of?, love or maturity? By the way, did you happen to notice what Paul equated with childish things? The tongues, knowledge, and the prophecy are the childish things! Why are they called the childish things? Because these were the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the church while it was yet in its infancy stage. These were the gifts that were necessary to the growth and development of the newly formed, first century New Testament church. These gifts would continue until the church passed out of its infancy stage around the time when the New Testament was completed. What is going to be done away with? Knowledge!, the revealed knowledge!, is a childish thing! Not that the knowledge is childish, but the revealing of it was in the infant stage of the church. The church didn't have a New Testament. For just about the first 70 years of the church there was no New Testament to carry around. The apostles were the New Testament? Yes, and the prophets, those the apostles laid their hands on, and their letters as they were being distributed, and the preachers who memorized what was being preached, and preached it. That was the first century New Testament. Anyway, let's see if he is still talking about maturity or completeness in knowledge, or is he talking about love, or is he talking about Jesus. "For we see in a mirror dimly". In other words, it is not making complete sense. Ever look in a bathroom mirror after you've taken a shower? Its all steamed up, foggy, you can't see clearly. You can't see yourself very well. Do you see the analogy? The verse goes on to say, "But then", when? "When the perfect comes", when he "becomes a man". What is he illustrating? Maturity is the answer! The verse goes on to say, "then face to face". So there was going to be a time when we would see it clearly. Some people say, that is talking about Jesus, "face to face" with Jesus. But that is not right! Who do you see in a mirror? Yourself! What is James 1:24?25 talking about? God's word is a mirror, you can see your reflection in it. At that point, though, when 1 Corinthians was written, you couldn't see your spiritual reflection clearly. It was foggy, blurred, it was incomplete. "But then, face to face! Now I know in part", what is he talking about? Immaturity! "My knowledge is immature, my knowledge is incomplete". I'm not saying Paul was immature. I'm saying his knowledge was, or imperfect, or in part, or partial. That is what he himself says. "But then", when? When you see yourself face to face; when you become a man and put away childish things; when that which is complete comes and the partial is done way with; When the tongues end, although love continues. Verse 12, "Then I shall know fully just as also I have been fully known." What is he going to say? There was going to come a time when Paul would know the full revelation. And this will happen, at the end of his ministry. He will talk about the mystery that had been entrusted unto him and that he has entrusted unto Timothy and so forth, having received the complete revelation of God. "But now abides faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." Now the reason why the greatest of these is love is once you are in heaven you don't need faith and hope. Hope is swallowed up in reality, and faith is too. Faith is realized. Heaven is a reward of trust or faith. By the way, if you don't love God, can you have faith? Our love of God, is what everything else is dependent upon. Living in the faith and being obedient to the faith, trusting God, and so forth. Many people say they have faith, but they really don't love God. They are fooling themselves, they are going through a ritual. Their religion is dead. They don't trust. They do not have faith! They say they do, they say they trust, but they really trust in themselves. But Paul is telling the Corinthians to `Put your hope in love! These other gifts are going to be done away with when they are made complete. These things are only going to last for a time during the childish stage of the church. But when the maturity comes, these things are going to fulfill their purpose!' 1 Corinthians 14 and verse 1, "Pursue love, yet earnestly desire spiritual gifts but especially that you may prophecy". Take these in their context, look at the chapter, look at the setting in which it is, in the present tense that Paul is writing to the Corinthians. Did Paul have all prophecy? No! Then was tongues to be spiritual gifts still in force at the time he is writing? Yes! Why? Did they have a New Testament written? No! What was their New Testament? The revelation and prophecy that was given! They'd be foolish not to "desire the spiritual gifts." They would have to desire the spiritual gifts. For what purpose were spiritual gifts given? To confirm the word and to give the word! To give the word and to confirm it! "But especially that you may prophesy"...Why? Because they needed revelation. They needed direction and guidance. They needed to speak forth the Word of God. 1 Corinthians 14 is the primary text which Pentecostals go to for justification of the speaking in "tongues" today. Yet it teaches just the opposite of what they go to it for! Chapter 14 will be a general correction and condemnation of the abuses of tongues. The Apostle Paul is going to tell them that they better not speak in tongues except in the case when unbelievers are present. What today's "tongue" speakers are doing is pulling everything out of context using the verses to say the exact opposite of their obvious intended meaning. Why does Paul tell them to "desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy"? What are most Pentecostal groups trying to do? Not prophesy! They're trying to speak in tongues. Why? Because even they themselves realize that they have the prophesy of God in the Word of God, the Bible. Most Pentecostals will first admit that the Bible is all we need. But once they say that, they have also unwittingly admitted that the inspired knowledge through prophesy has been made perfect or complete, (2 Peter 1:3;Jude 3;2 Timothy 3:16,17;Revelation 22:18ff). Here's the argument: Ask a Pentecostal, `Is the Bible all we need?" Most of them will say, "Yes." When they say yes, then they're saying that we don't need prophesy today because prophesy was to give us the Word of God!, (Ephesians 3:5). When prophesy ended, so did tongues, that's just what 1 Corinthians 13:8 says! If we've received all the knowledge we need, then tongues have ceased as well. Tongues were a sign to confirm the Word, as the Word was given, and were not to continue through the centuries. Once the Word was confirmed, it is always confirmed. You don't see God still turning rods into snakes, do you? He did that with Moses to confirm the fact that Moses was speaking from God. You don't see pillars of smoke and fire today or God still confirming Moses' word! Why? Because Moses' word was confirmed when Moses preached it! You don't see God confirming Jesus and His apostles word today. Why? Because He confirmed it when they preached it. You could see that confirmation when Jesus and His apostles and prophets were speaking their message. That is why John said in John 20:30, "Many other things Jesus did in the presence of His disciples which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name". I will stop here because I am taking up too much room. Prayfully study these scriptures. AMEN

-- Paolo (vze3ffrz@verizon.net), April 02, 2003.

Paolo,

I have some advice for you (compliments of Shakespeare):

Brevity is the soul of wit.

God bless you, and may he lead you and all to His Holy Catholic Church!

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), April 02, 2003.

(topping)

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 03, 2003.

Hey Theresa; I stand by everything I say here on principle, but I want to apologize for the way I've said it, or the way it comes across. I hope you weren't too tortured by my posts.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), April 04, 2003.

Hey Emerald:

I catch your point, BELIEVE ME, I do. I have seen abuses. This is the key, if the gifts -- ANY GIFT -- is done without a spirit of deep humility and love of God and love our fellowman, it stands a huge risk of perversion. I know some folks in some pentecostal churches that wear their gift like a badge. YIKES! Very dangerous!

Gotta go,

Gail

P.S. Once I heard a very famous Word of Faith teacher "speak in tongues." Essentially, he put the sound "botin" on the end of every gutteral sound he made. So it was like "gluken-botin, sekin-botin, tuken-botin, ebo-botin, flebin-botin." Then, he and his companion start telling jokes in "tongues." It was quite ridiculous and a complete abuse.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), April 04, 2003.

I have heard some tongues which I did not think was authentic, but I know many many many who ARE authentic.

How do you know the difference?

Once I heard a very famous Word of Faith teacher "speak in tongues".... it was like "gluken-botin, sekin-botin, tuken-botin, ebo- botin, flebin-botin." Then, he and his companion start telling jokes in "tongues." It was quite ridiculous and a complete abuse.

So what does it sound like when it's the real deal? I've seen videos of charismatic prayer meetings where the "tongues" sound like: "ummmmmmmmmmm lub lub lub lub lub lub lub lub lub num num num num num num num num," Then there's the Benny Hinn- style "tongue" that sounds more like: "Nashaba Lacta, Na shabalahahamata."

Which, if either, would you consider authentic?

-- jake (jake1@pngusa.net), April 05, 2003.

Brothers and sisters: none of todays tongues are authentic. The Bible tells this truth. Anything of the supernatural is from Satin. God is giving his true believers the biggest test ever! Forgive me that I write so much, but I gave a lot of scripture from the Bible to prove this. Hummbly and prayfully read those scriptures from my previous responses, and ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom and understanding. If God gives you understanding to certain truths, we must be obedient to what the Lord commands us. Don't trust me, the Bible has all the answers. We should test all doctrine and teachers and prophets to see if their teachings are contrary to the Bible. Once we find past teachings contrary to God's WORD, we then must make a huge decision to obey God's command by dropping these doctrines. We can't let our pride get in the way. We know from the Bible that in the last days right before the comming of our LORD, any supernatural activities are all from Satin. God tells us to test every prophet! For example: Revelation 13, the whole chapter deals with the final tribulation, and it has to do with the activity of Satan as he brings signs and wonders and builds false churches. Matthew 24 and Mark 13 deal with the final tribulation, and it is totally spiritual. The likelihood is that the world will look more and more wonderful as it goes along. Revelation 17 and Revelation 18 talk about God's final judgment coming on the world, and speaks of the merchants and ships' captains weeping and wailing because suddenly all of their ability to make money has come to an end. These chapters give the impression that everything has going along better and better in the world. We read in Matthew 24:37-39: But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. While God uses very lurid and dramatic pictures of physical trauma, as in Revelation 9 and Revelation 10, they illustrate spiritual trauma. I do not believe that we are to understand them literally in any sense. In Matthew 24:24, God declares the character of the Great Tribulation. There we read: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Never before in all of church history has there been such an interest in signs and wonders, miracles, such as we see today. One of the most prominent signs is the phenomenon of speaking in tongues. All over the world there is an intense interest in this kind of activity. This evidence alone assures us that we are living in the period of the Great Tribulation, the last event before the return of our LORD, Jesus Christ. The Bible discloses that right near the end of time, Satan will become the dominant ruler within the congregations. In II Thessalonians 2, God speaks of the man of sin taking his seat in the temple. It will be seen that the man of sin can be only Satan. Matthew 24:24: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." In Revelation 13:7, God informs us: "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Revelation 13 speaks of the beast that comes out of the earth. This can be only Satan and his dominion, as he rules through false gospels. By this means, he is able to destroy the churches that are under the judgment of God. Thus, he is able to overcome the saints, the true believers, within the congregations. Destruction of the New Testament church is not through political action but through the action of the church itself as it becomes apostate. Clues and guidance as to how this will materialize can be learned from God's dealings with ancient Israel, because Israel is a type, figure, or representation of the New Testament church. What happened in the nation of Israel gives insight as to what will happen to the congregations of our day. The second characteristic of the tongues movement is an interest in signs and wonders. There is a conviction that God is performing miracles today, as our Lord and the twelve apostles did signs and wonders. Miraculous healing is most commonly expected. The sign of people falling backward (being "slain in the spirit" as some call it), is evidence of a supernatural event. While so-called miraculous healing can be explained in earthly, physical terms, falling backwards appears to be unexplainable from an earthly, physical vantage point. The phenomenon of someone appearing to receive a message from God in a tongue or vision, etc., may actually have a physical explanation. It could be an hallucination or it could be related to the individual's subconscious mind. Also, however, it could be supernatural activity induced by Satan; he captivates the hearts of those who are not content with the true Gospel. When it is a supernatural activity, it should be called a sign or a wonder because God calls the activity of speaking in tongues a sign in I Corinthians 14:22. Significantly, the Bible makes reference to "signs and wonders" in connection with the end of time. The fact that these references have nothing to do with the true church is of great importance. Every reference relates to satanic activity. For example, in Matthew 24:24: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." This verse indicates that false prophets will come with a gospel that is so much like the true Gospel that even the elect would be deceived, if that were possible. The elect are the true believers; they were chosen by God to salvation. They cannot be deceived because God will hold them fast. False prophets can be recognized by their signs and wonders. In II Thessalonians 2:9 God warns of the man of sin who will take his seat in the temple: "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders." In Revelation 13, in reference to Satan coming as a false prophet, God warns in verses 13-14: And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. In Revelation 16:14, God speaks of satanic activity just before Judgment Day: For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. God shows in these references that He will bring His judgment on the end-time church through false gospels that feature miracles. Do not be surprised that signs and wonders are prominent in churches with false gospels. When Christ came with the true Gospel, He attested to its genuineness by performing miracles. John 20:30-31: And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. As Satan comes at the end of time with his false gospels that feature tongues, he, too, attempts to attest to their genuineness with signs and wonders. Only two miracles are credited to him in the Bible: First, his ability to break the silence between the supernatural and the natural with messages in tongues and visions; and second, he can supernaturally cause people to fall backward. To add further credence to these gospels, Satan comes with lying signs and wonders; that is, his adherents will claim to do miracles and believe miracles have been done, when there has been no miracle. Modern means of communication such as television enhance the spread of these false gospels. People who worship in churches that are reasonably faithful to the true Gospel may become familiar with the blandishments and enticements of false gospels in the privacy of their homes. With no one knowing, they drink deeply of the poisoned water, and as the plague enters their churches, they are prepared to accept it as an aspect of the true Gospel. Right before our eyes, church after church capitulates to gospels that do not consider the Bible alone and in its entirety to be the true Gospel. The destruction of the church, to a high degree, is accomplished through the testing program of tongues. In blindness, a church will fail the test as Satan deceives the congregation into accepting the false gospels of tongues and signs and wonders. Thus, congregations will continue to exist during the final tribulation period, but they will be increasingly false. True believers will either voluntarily leave or they will be asked to leave when the congregation begins to follow a false gospel. Those who remain within the congregations in reality will be serving Satan even though they think they are serving Christ.The believers at Corinth who were given this gift were instructed to pray that they might interpret. The purpose of interpretation was to share with the congregation what God had revealed to them, for the edification of the congregation. This was possible because in that day, God had not completed the Bible. Around A.D. 95, God completed the Bible with the writing of the Revelation of John. God is the author of the Bible, and in the last chapter of the Bible, He declares, in Revelation 22:18-19: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.With this statement, God ended the possibility of any further information coming from God. From that point on, we cannot expect anyone to receive a vision, tongue, or voice from God because God will not violate His own rules. God said that He has given us His Word, the revelation of His will. We are to study it, be obedient to it, and not expect any phenomena of tongues or visions such as occurred before the Bible was complete. Today everyone who becomes saved is baptized in the Holy Spirit. Being baptized in the Holy Spirit comes with salvation; it is not a separate gift, but rather it happens to everyone who is truly saved. The true believer is one who has come to recognize that he is a sinner under the wrath of God and he knows that his salvation is entirely the work of God. He is one who has come to trust the Bible concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only savior given to mankind. When he is saved, that is, born again, he is baptized in the Holy Spirit. His sins are washed away, and the Holy Spirit takes up His abode with him. Let us consider what God says in I Corinthians 13:8-12. There we read: Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. Let us look at this passage carefully. In I Corinthians 13, God is simply saying that tongues shall cease, but He is not telling when they shall cease. God says that prophecy and knowledge will pass away, and in verses 9-12, He says that they will pass away when we see Him face to face, that is, when we get to heaven. Notice that verses 9-12 are only speaking of knowledge and prophecy. There are not speaking about tongues. This passage does not tell us when tongues will cease. God teaches in Revelation 22:18 that if you look for divine truth from sources other than the Bible, it indicates that you are still subject to the plagues written herein, that is, you are unsaved and subject to hell. Therefore, Revelation 22:18 gives the answer as to when tongues will cease, and that is when the Bible was completed. It is true that the Bible speaks of signs and wonders that will still come to pass. The Bible speaks about signs and wonders in a number of places, and speaking in tongues is a sign. We read about this in I Corinthians 14. The Greek word for sign is simeon, which also can be translated "miracle." The Bible speaks of signs and wonders, particularly in relation to the end- time church, ominously, and unfortunately, all references to signs and wonders near the end of time are satanically related. God declares in Matthew 24:24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. We read in II Thessalonians 2:3-4: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. The man of sin taking his seat in the temple represents or is a picture of Satan ruling in the church. Satan will come with signs and wonders of falsehood. God will make the followers of Satan believe a lie, so they will be prepared for judgment. Satan can speak in a lot of ways; he comes with all kinds of occult activities. Apart from the church, he comes through witchcraft, Ouija boards, tarot cards, and so on. In the church, he also comes with occult activity. The Bible says he does. II Corinthians 11:14: "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." We must be on guard and make sure that the only place we look for divine truth is the Bible. I tried to make this response shorter but it is hard to explain something without backing up my answer. Remember always back up all teachings thru scripture. If your church taught you something contrary to the Word of GOD, then perhaps the Holy Spirit is opening up your eyes. Don't ignore these verses. Notice how they all harmonize. This is how we find truth. We can't isolate one or two verses and create opinions. That is very dangerouse. God tells us the begining of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. If we don't care about what the Bible says, then we have no fear of God. This could be a good indication that we are still under the wrath of God. Seek Him and you shall find him. Peace and God Bless!

-- Paolo (vze3ffrz@verizon.net), April 05, 2003.

Hey Jake:

This is a very subjective answer but it's the best one I can muster.

The imposters sound like clanging cymbals and pots and pans, fingernails on the chalk board; the authentic is uplifting, edifying, hormonious, and beautiful -- AND NEVER DONE to draw attention to itself.

I'll check out that Benny Hinn thing. See, I don't get into people "showing off" their tongue -- like Benny Hin -- that's bogus already in my view. Thanks for the link.

Lots of Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), April 06, 2003.

There are a few strategies to use to discern what is authentic Holy Spirit activity and what is counterfeit, Jake. It's imperative for the Christian to know these things, as 'My sheep hear my voice and they know Me".. and 'the thief comes to steal and destroy', for Satan comes as an angel of light. Some things we know by natural knowledge, having spent enough time with the Savior to know His voice from someone else's.

Other important things require supernatural knowledge that comes from the three gifts sometimes called 'revelatory' gifts {they reveal heavenly things}; word of knowledge, word of wisdom, and discernment [sometimes we need specific discernment of spirits]. The gift of tongues opens us to these gifts, bringing us into the prophetic realm {knowing His mind about things}. .[who says knowing the mind of Christ is not Catholic???].

Gail it sounds like you've experienced a 'word of knowledge'. I've seen this gift in operation in well-train prayer teams . The beauty lies in the docility to and the cooperation with the Holy Spirit.One receives the word of knowledge {what needs to be done}, prayer is done to receive the word of wisdom {how to proceed}, and one may have a healing ministry, or a prophetic one. Submission to Church authority makes the gifts affective.God is a God of order. For again, the gifts are for the strengthening, encouragement and consolation of the Body.

Emerald...not to worry... your way of thinking is familiar to me, not new at all. Keep seeking, brother.

Paolo, it would be easier to read your posts if you hit the 'enter' button twice between paragraphs, it would be less overwhelming.

Let's keep each other in prayer.. Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), April 06, 2003.

oops, I see, Jake, you meant 'how to distinguish fake from real' gifts of tongues. I went into a broader issue, that of other behaviors.

Like Gail says, some people really make a show of it and it's quite annoying. But then again I can't tell if maybe they're just new at it and have an immature attitude and haven't learned humility. We must be patient before we cast the whole thing off as unauthentic.

Some people's tongue is just immature, and sounds quite repetitive. As the gift is developed and excercised {either in private or with an active group with mature leadership} it sounds more in harmony-the Holy Spirit actually USES the gift to BRING the group into harmony and unity of mind. The authentic purpose is really quite amazing.

One of the saints [name escapes my mind] teaches there are four levels of tongues, jubilation being one of them. Praising sounds different then worship, which sounds different then just sharing my heart with God. And spiritual warfare [deep intercession]is altogether different.

Over all, patience and love for each other must be our motivating foundation.

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), April 06, 2003.

ahhhh... bear with me... i went to write some bills, coming back with a few more thoughts.. on tongues.. beginners many times are like teen agers not old enough emotionally to handle their bodies changing. After receiving the gift many times people are not equipped with good teaching to help them understand their use and disciple their purpose. Thus, becoming kind of obnoxious. Beginners are like colts with wobbly legs, it takes time to learn to walk, same with operating in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

There's no real apparent danger here accept it's annoying.Danger lies when the enemy would cause this person to act on his/her own in a community, which is not permitted in a well-ordered community.

Another wonderful aspect of tongues prayer language is that the devil cannot understand it, when we have things we only want God to hear.. we're secure when we tell it to Him with our own prayer language.

-- Theresa (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), April 06, 2003.

As a child in Christ all I can say is I tried! Even if I gave you a hundred verses from the Bible some of you just don't care! Satin uses these signs and wonders to deceive you. This verse popped in my head. Matthew 16:4"A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. " God completed his prophecies and we have it in front of us called the Bible. And when God finished giving us messages He indicated in Revalations:22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Now if someone claims to speak in tongues, and tries to say it is from God, Even if it is prayer or some other message, then you are adding to the Bible and just violated what God said in Rev:22:18- 19!!! How is every child of God suppose to know every prayer or message, if he or she lives accross the country. God is not a God of confusion. Even if you claim to be praying, In the Book of psalms through David and other prophets God gave us prayers. Wow God also put in the Bible.

People do not get fooled! This is one of the signs that tells us Satin is ruling in the churches. Peace to all!

-- Paolo (vze3ffrz@verizon.net), April 06, 2003.