Religious Discussion

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Okay, heres the deal. I posted a question about Pagan religions, and apparently I offended someone, because it was deleted. So, I'm making this post. It lets us discuss any and all religions equally. I hope everyone that can joins in, because it WOULD help to stop intolerance that eventually leads to people becoming outcasts, murderers, dead, and more. There are a few rules here:

1. NO trying to spread your express point of view, or trying to convert anyone. This means don't just go out and claim your religion is the best, no matter what you may believe. This is to avoid offending anyone. This is the prime rule here. 2. No excessive language. No swearing, or using terms that are considered offensive in certain quarters. 3. Just a request here, basically, but use correct grammar and spelling, okay? 4. Another request, but if you have long messages, separate them into paragraphs...otherwise, it becomes difficult to leave.

I may post more rules as I think of them, but as of now, this is how it stands.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 27, 2003

Answers

If truth is interpreted in the wrong way, it ceases to be the truth. Therefore, truth can only be interpreted in one way to remain Truth.

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), March 27, 2003.

Give me an example, if you will.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 27, 2003.

I would like to invite one and all into the Roman Catholic Church to be baptised, confirmed and to receive the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, for salvation.

The Catholic Church is the most tolerant of all, as a black man, a white man, an oriental man, can all come into the Church and become one Mystical Body through the unity of the blood of Christ.

The Catholic Church is the most tolerant of all, as it protects and defends the beautiful and profound nature of woman.

The Catholic Church is the most peaceful of all, as it calls it's members to lay down their lives for the good of mystical body of Christ; because it seeks true order among created goods and created beings; because it seeks one kingdom and serves one King.

The Catholic Church is the one true Faith.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), March 27, 2003.


I would like to invite one and all into the Roman Catholic Church to be baptised, confirmed and to receive the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, for salvation.

Well, sorry, not gonna happen exactly. Besides, who says we need to become Christians or Catholics to prevent from being condemned all eternity? I don't believe in the place Christians refer to as Hell, anyway.

The Catholic Church is the most tolerant of all, as a black man, a white man, an oriental man, can all come into the Church and become one Mystical Body through the unity of the blood of Christ.

How is that being tolerant, though? Yeah, they aren't racist or anything, but they don't respect other people's religious beliefs...in fact, the Christian and Catholic churches are infamous for hunting down people other Pagan and Neo-Pagan religions in the past.

The Catholic Church is the most tolerant of all, as it protects and defends the beautiful and profound nature of woman.

The Wiccan religion, and other Neo-Pagan religions, do that too...thats why the Goddess is the God's equal, and, in some sectors, His better.

The Catholic Church is the most peaceful of all, as it calls it's members to lay down their lives for the good of mystical body of Christ; because it seeks true order among created goods and created beings; because it seeks one kingdom and serves one King.

Other religions do a lot of that stuff, too...and you can't claim its the most peaceful. Ever hear of the Burning Times?

The Catholic Church is the one true Faith.

Gotta disagree with you there. I respect your beliefs, I just don't agree with them. Can you say the same? Plus, I believe every religion has equal validity...you choose how much, heh.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 27, 2003.


Well, I'm being even nicer than you thought, lol!

I gave you a freebie hidden premise... that all tolerance is good. There's your hidden premise.

But it isn't a true premise. If someone drives down the wrong way on the freeway, we don't have to be tolerant of this; in fact, tolerance in this case is to be absolutely discarded, for the sake of the innocent. If someone comes through my front door and walks out with the bagels and cream cheese, hey, right? No tolerance required here either.

So not all tolerance is good. So... now what do we do?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), March 27, 2003.



Okay, you make a point...time for me to try to do the same.

My point is this: driving down the wrong side of a freeway can hurt someone. Taking things from a persons house without their permission isn't exactly legal, either. But how does it hurt someone if a person practices a different religion? And we all know its legal...

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 27, 2003.


Because the cases above (the freeway, the bagels and the cream cheese theft) are a fortiori, meaning "by a greater [argument]. They are the paradigamtic cases of something, or the case where the truth of the matter is most obvious or is the best example.

But here's the thing question, though... the most obvious example of what? What is that something? In this case, they are the most obvious examples of being out of alignment with the truth in one or another respect.

If you keep bringing up instances like these, obvious ones, you can't help but begin to induct a universal principle by which these things operate.

At this point, you are in the realm of abstract truth and on your way to first principles. You begin to realize that, although unseen and not concrete to the senses, there is universal and immutable truth, from which the obvious examples such as the freeway, bagels and cream cheese instances flow from.

Once in that realm, no matter how murky and grey in appearance it might seem from time to time, truth and falsity are mutually exclusive.

At this point it becomes clear that various religions will absolutely not be able to maintain any all-inclusive, pure form of tolerance of each other.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), March 27, 2003.


But is it really fair for people to go around offending people because they want their religion to grow and be the largest? People used to convert people to Christianity using FORCE. Is that fair?

Sure, pure tolerance probably won't happen, at least not in our lifetimes, I bet. But SOME tolerance is infinitely better than intolerance. How about everyone just respects everyones beliefs enough to not harrass them about it?

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 27, 2003.


Emerald has done such a fine job since I have been away, that I think my example of truth would prove useless, at this point. But have at it, I am immensely enjoying this debate. I may have to jump in at some point.

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), March 27, 2003.

Feel free...

*Thinks to himself, "Man, i've got to get some people to help me out here..."*

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 27, 2003.



But is it really fair for people to go around offending people because they want their religion to grow and be the largest?

Well, I think you're assuming something here that may not necessarily be the case... that the objective is to be the largest. What good is a huge body of so-called believers that don't understand or practice their faith? Pretty much worthless. This could even hold true in simple business terms: growing a business large and fast doesn't make you profitable... better to have a smaller, stabler and loyal client base in the long run. So I don't think that's the objective of, for instance, the Catholic Church at all.

But about offending people, there is a way to offend people, sure, and it should be avoided. But this avoidance of offending people is not at all to consist of avoiding the truth. People will always be offended at ANYthing anyone can say, and if you begin to allow them this luxury, the first casualty will be the truth. Face it, there is absolutely no way around offending some people when it comes to promoting the truth, and sometimes you just have to let it happen.

Excercise prudence? Sure. But it is not so much about completely avoiding offending someone as much as it is minimizing collateral damage, as in a war. Even the dentist will to you "hey, this is gonna hurt a little". So I would say offhand, it is not about avoiding the offending of a person, but minimizing the unfortunate side effects of telling the truth.

People used to convert people to Christianity using FORCE. Is that fair?

No. And most likely, the conversion isn't real, either. But don't assume that ALL conversions were done by force.

Sure, pure tolerance probably won't happen, at least not in our lifetimes, I bet.

Should we aim for pure tolerance, or the absence of the need for tolerance? If there is absolutely truth, and all traces of falsity and evil were to thrust aside, we wouldn't even need tolerance at all. This would be the best situation.

But SOME tolerance is infinitely better than intolerance.

In the here and now, I suppose so, if by tolerance you mean being patient with other people's errors and blunders. I would be forced to agree with that.

How about everyone just respects everyones beliefs enough to not harrass them about it?

If the offering of truth becomes harrassment, then I would say call of the dogs, sure. However, this last question may enter into the realm, at some point, of questions about the common good of society as a whole, and at that point the character of the question and the answers to it change quite a bit. You then have to ask questions such as "do I want my children exposed to this?" or "what understanding of the truth do we wish to base our civil government upon", and whatnot.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), March 27, 2003.


Okay, lets get down to earth here. Lets toss out any abstract ideas, and lets ignore what everyone may believe is the truth, even if it may be different.

Showing people things that you may believe is the truth, but they may not believe, could be considered harrassment. People may file complaints against others. Also, parents may not want their children exposed to this, and may pull children out of school, or other places, if they feel their child is being exposed to what they may feel is lies.

I'm not trying to get into a discussion about "well, they may think its lies, but its really the truth". People may be offended, and it will just lead to problems. Its both on a religious level and a logic level...

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 27, 2003.


Hi Shane!

Glad to see you're back. I'm dashing out the door right now for one of my kids' sporting events...I haven't even read this thread yet. But perhaps I'll get the chance to post later.

I don't think you offended anyone. Probably that spammer we were having trouble with posted something "highly" offensive.

Will Blayze be joining in?

Will get back here later.

Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), March 27, 2003.


Well, again, go back to the case of the paradigmatic case, or the most obvious or exemplary case. If a man has inadvertently put his left arm in one of those treebranch chipper-shredders, there is no way in hell that you are going to convince this man to be open minded about inserting his right arm. In this case, close-mindedness is seriously a good thing.

Here's my point, though. You can't help but go from this obvious case to the more abstract case... the human mind just does this because it is made that way. It happens, even if you don't want it to. Nature seeks its goal consistantly whether we try to thwart it or not, and so it is with us humans.

I would say that what one can see through clear waters does not at all go away when the waters turn murky, as when you get into matters of truth beyond the sense. There is most definitely, in the same way, a good way to be closed-minded concerning matters of truth that are not so obvious, not so material, not so concrete to the senses. Once you come into contact and assimilate certain unseen truths, you guard them carefully in a very justifiable sort of closed- mindedness. The only real “tolerance” you need to carry at that point is to be patient with others in attempting to offer them the same kind of certitude that you have fought to achieve.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), March 27, 2003.


Hey, yeah, Blayze will probably be coming back...

And Emerald, no offense intended, but some of your resposnes are insanely complex...thats a good think, but would you mind "dumbing it down"? I could probably make sense of it if i tried hard enough, but I'm kind of talking to a million people at once, so my time is kind of limited.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 27, 2003.



Hi Shane; you know, I don't think it is a matter of dumb vs. smart at all, really. I think it is a matter of practice. Unfortunately, modern existence has people jumping and popping around trying to meet deadlines and attain stuff, and they are simply out of practice. They do think good thoughts, but they really don't seem to let them flower into anything.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), March 27, 2003.

"But is it really fair for people to go around offending people because they want their religion to grow and be the largest"

A: Catholicism was the true Church even when it had only 12 members. Size has nothing to do with it. Is it really fair to expect people to hide the truth because the truth offends some other people? Seems to me that those who are offended by the truth have the problem, not those who share it.

"People used to convert people to Christianity using FORCE. Is that fair?"

A: No. It absolutely is not fair, nor is it the will of God.

"SOME tolerance is infinitely better than intolerance"

A: ANY tolerance of sin is infinitely worse than intolerance. Tolerance of false beliefs is likewise to be avoided. As for the persons who inadvertently subscribe to such false beliefs, tolerance of them is not sufficient. We are called to love them, not merely tolerate them.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 27, 2003.


Also, parents may not want their children exposed to this, and may pull children out of school, or other places, if they feel their child is being exposed to what they may feel is lies.

OK, let's turn this around the other way. By being a pagan, you are pretty much saying to keep Christian beliefs out of schools, so as not to offend others who don't believe this. But when you do that here is what you get:

The unteaching of creation, and a new teaching of evolution.

No prayer in schools, so that kids even who choose to pray are often harrassed, if not punished.

The introduction of sex ed in schools.

And, consequently, a spike in teenage pregnancies.

Consequently, teaching of birth control, abortion, and handing out condoms in schools.

Consequently, more promiscuousness, because now they can protect themselves.

Etc, etc, etc.

Now you may not have a problem with this, but you see, it offends me. Someone will always be offended, so the question is: Do we really smother the Truth at the risk of offending?

BTW, many more Catholics were martyred by pagans, than people forced into Christianity. Forcing conversions, of course, is never a good thing, and not something I condone, because a conversion has to begin within. But when you level accusations, you must always keep history in perspective.

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), March 27, 2003.


Gheez, so many rules! How can anyone comment if there is "NO" expressing of ones point of view allowed? (did I spell gheez right?)

Here is the fact: God = Love There is no life without Love!

-- Choas (Choas@ivillage.com), March 28, 2003.


Well, Paul, you can go around preaching Catholocism is the only truth, and I'm sure there are many people who would accept that, but there are more who would not, myself being one of them. But that is your viewpoint, and I respect that. I only ask that you also respect mine, and do not try to force your own viewpoints upon me.

Choas: It's "Geez". And I don't think I said you couldn't express your viewpoint...I just think I said you couldn't force your viewpoint onto others (if thats not what I said, I apologize...consider it an official amendment.) Now, there HAS been life without love in some cases, much to many peoples dismay, and not everyone believes you need to believe in the Christian God, or any deity/supreme being, to have love. So, technically, its not a fact.

Isabel: If we are keeping history in perspective, well, consider the fact that pagan religions came before any monotheistic religion...and don't start with the hole "Adam and Eve" thing, because, although it is in the Bible, it is not documented in any historical database.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 28, 2003.


"consider the fact that pagan religions came before any monotheistic religion"

So is it a case of "first is better"?? Ignorance always precedes knowledge.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 28, 2003.


I never said that, Paul. I'm only stating something.

Besides, Wicca came after Christianity, so, according to your logic, Wicca is better than Christianity...of course, thats assuming you are fair and apply the same rules to everything. You have to be consistent, you know.

I'm not stating Wicca, or any other religion, is better than Christianity...I just feel Wicca is better FOR ME. Catholocism is better for you. You can go around claiming I'm sinful, but it won't bother me in the slightest, because I don't believe in the place you call Hell, nor the being you call Satan. Your rules are meaningless to me, just as my rules are probably meaningless to you.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 28, 2003.


And, for the record, witches don't "Do the Devil's Work", either. My uncle, a certified fundamentalist Christian Pastor, has stated that you cannot be worshipping, or helping, something you believe with all your heart doesn't exist. I've heard of the same statements from other Christian and Catholic ministers, priests, etc.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 28, 2003.

lol Paul:)

Shane, I really don't care how you spell Gheez!! I myself prefer it with an "h", but you can say/spell it anyway you want.

You say "there has been life without love in some cases, much to many peoples dismay, and not everyone believes you need to believe in the Christian God, or any deity/supreme being, to have love." What life might that be, plant life?

-- Choas (Choas@ivillage.com), March 28, 2003.


Speaking of spelling, how many of you were told that the word "fish" can be spelled "ghoti" in elementary school?

:-)

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), March 28, 2003.


Dear Shane,

You cannot be CONSCIOUSLY worshipping, or helping, something you believe with all your heart doesn't exist. But that doesn't mean that what you are doing may not further the cause of something or someone who really does exist, even thouigh you think he doesn't. In fact, not believing that a dangerous enemy is near, when he actually is sneaking up on you, gives that enemy a distinct advantage over you. Not believing that he even exists gives him an even greater advantage. Who would defend against a deadly enemy, if they mistakenly thought he didn't exist? But that doesn't make the enemy any less deadly.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 28, 2003.


Was Ghoti a gangster fish?

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), March 28, 2003.

"Was Ghoti a gangster fish?"

LOL!

Here's "Ghoti".

Enjoy,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), March 28, 2003.


Pagan religions came before any monothesitic religions? I'm not so sure that that would apply to Judaism...It goes back very, very far.

But the age of the religion aside, the issue here is that you believe that all religions are equal, and just a matter of preference.

Catholics do not believe this. Many of us have searched, sought, studied, and come to a logical conclusion that God has revealed Himself and His Truths most perfectly in the Catholic Church.

While all religions have some elements of truth in them, the Catholic Church most perfectly presents the Truth in its fullness.

There may be folks here who would much prefer a church where there is singing, hand clapping, hugging, or dancing skyclad, but personal preference isn't what we're looking for in religion. We're looking for Truth.

Many Truths have proofs, so to a certain degree, the people who have chosen Catholicism have come to a logical conclusion and made a choice to believe in this Faith.

Then again, I have known of others who left the Catholic Church, not because they couldn't or didn't believe what was taught, but there was another church in town that was more fun, or there seemed to be "more action."

I suppose it depends on what you're looking for when you choose a religion.

What led you to Wicca?

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), March 28, 2003.


although it is in the Bible, it is not documented in any historical database.

Ah, but Shane, the Bible is a historical database. And, as Anna has said, was not Judaism before paganism?

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), March 28, 2003.


No, Judaism did not come before Pagan religions in historical databases (this is setting aside faith records such as the Bible, which, although believed by some, is considered worthless by others). The ancient Greek and Egyptian pantheons came far before Judaism. Judaism was started by a man named Abraham, who was born in a polytheistic religion, and he said there was only one God, and began Judaism. You can look it up, if you doubt me...

I am drawn to Wicca because it answers all my questions about life. It spiritually fulfills me, and isn't that important in religion?

Now, someone (i think Anna, it was?) was saying that the Catholic religion was the only religion that promoted Truth. Well, you may think that, but I personally think that isn't true...once again, though, a matter of faith.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 28, 2003.


And Paul, although your point is valid in earthly matters (crooks, criminals, etc.) the being you call Satan is, in all truth, a being that exists only in the Christian religion groups. I personally do not believe in him. You do. Its a matter of what faith you are from.

I don't serve or help "the Devil" on any level. Technically, "the Devil" is the opposing viewpoint of the Christian God (note that this is not to offend anyone, I'm just saying the Christian God to separate it from deities of other religions.) Satanists, for all their faults, DO believe in the Christian God, which makes them an extension of Christianity. Neo-Pagan religions such as Wicca are a section all of their own, and don't apply to what you call God and Satan.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 28, 2003.


Hi Shane,

Actually, what I said was, the Catholic Church most perfectly presents the fullness of Truth, while other religions--Wicca included--contain elements of Truth.

So, you hunger for spiritual fulfillment. That is good. So do we. And I think it is safe to say that we both have a deep appreciation for the value of ritual.

In the previous thread, I had pointed out that while we honor God for His Power and Wisdom, it seems that Wiccans attempt to draw powers (and certain knowledge?) from their god and goddess. This puts you in a position of wielding some power; whereas, we Catholics believe there is power in our prayers to God--He being the One Who decides whether or not to exercise His power, not us.

Now, we believe that our God is actually a Trinity: Three Divine Persons in One Immortal Godhead. These three are the Father, Son (Jesus Christ, the God-Man) and the Holy Spirit.

The Virgin Mary is not a goddess to us, but a human creature, perfectly created. She is honored as a Mother and Queen, but not worshipped as a diety.

You have a god and goddess? And these two dieties have many faces, right? Each face has a name. How many faces are there?

And how do these faces work? Do you address a certain face for a particular purpose, or does the god or goddess present him or herself, and you figure out which face you're dealing with?

Maybe I am not using the correct terms at all. If not, I apologize. I am just trying to understand what and how you practice your religion.

Do you channel energy and light? That is forbidden for Catholics. (Since we leave all power to God, it would be a form of idolatry to exercise supernatural powers. This would include casting spell, using charms, clairvoyance, etc.)

I hope you aren't angry with Paul. You've come upon a Catholic forum, and he is presenting very well our beliefs to you.

You may not "believe" in Satan, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. If I could "wish him away," I would do so! (Ever see Stephen King's Rose Red? "Not here, not here, not here, not here!" If only it was that easy!)

Having spoken with a priest who was the exorcist for the archdiocese of New York, I can assure you that Fr. LeBar has seen, first hand, manifestations of demonic possession. One of his exorcisms was even recorded, in part, on 60 minutes. Chilling. Demonic possession isn't take lighty. The manifestations are supernatural, not psychotic. The possessed person can do things that an ordinary human cannot, and likewise, he cannot do certain things that the ordinary human can. An exorcist can determine cases of possession or opression. There is something very powerful and supernatural going on in either case.

It sounds as though you believe that there are only good spirits, and no evil ones. Is that a correct assessment? Enough questions for now! (And welcome back, if I didn't say that earlier.)

Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), March 28, 2003.


Anna, okay, a lot of what you said is what is often known. Please allow me to clear up a few misconceptions:

People known as witches don't exactly channel power...I've read many different beliefs on how "spells" work. Some believe you ask the God or Goddess to help you with something. This is basically a prayer. Some believe that everyone and everything is made up of the Divine, no matter how distantly, so they believe they can connect to their own inner power to accomplish something, which, in a way, is sort of what you meant, i guess...

Well, there are many different theories and beliefs on the many faces of the God and Goddess. Some believe each different face is an individual being. Some believe they do not exist at all. Some believe each face is an aspect of the God and Goddess, basically, just a different name applied for their...how shall I say this...type? That's probably not the best word...Anyway, I fall into the latter category. So, technically, according to my belief system anyway, both Catholocism and Wicca believe in a sort of triad-deity or something. Catholocism has the Holy Trinity-the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit- while Wicca has the Divine, the God, and Goddess.

On a side note, "Satan"'s occasional appearance (horns, etc.) comes from the Horned Consort, something the Wiccan God is often called...

True, the belief systems are different, but it all lies in the faith...there are some similarities, there are some differences.

And as for the Devil thing, I believe he doesn't exist. You can think he harms me, I think that he is nothing, therefore, he cannot harm me (at least, thats what I think). Who's to say which is right or wrong there? You will claim you are right, I will claim I am right. At the end, though, neither of us will have changed opinions, and the only thing to result is tons of messages of us shouting at each other.

I believe there are evil spirits, sure...but good and evil are decided by the people. In many sectors of the Wiccan religion, there are what are called "Psycic Vampires"...I've heard many types of information on them, but, to summarize, you can consider them the Wiccan counterparts of demons, or evil spirits.

Did I make any sense at all?

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 28, 2003.


Isabel - Your partial diatribe of Ccreationists versus Evolutionists bring to ask if are aware the Scoffield Trial circa 1930's I think.

My mind was put to rest early grades pre-high school when it was taught God breathed The Breath Of Life into Man His Creation at some point in evolution.

This alwasy made sense to me for at some point He gave the gift leetting his creation know He was the Alpha/Omega sa as to start the programe. Adam and Eve are historical myths.

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), March 29, 2003.


I used to know someone who was both a science teacher and a Christian, and his belief systems (evolution and religion) often clashed. He eventually came up with a theory that might make some sense...time is relative, right? I mean, for an infinite being, millions and billions of years could be, oh, say, seven days? After all, time is a human creation. Of course, this is if you accept certain theories and faiths before this.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 29, 2003.

I am a professional biologist, a university "science teacher", a born again Catholic Christian, and an ordained minister of the Church, and I have never found any conflict whatsoever between the revealed truths of faith and the discovered truths of science. In fact, such a conflict cannot exist, as truth cannot conflict with truth. As for belief systems, I have only one. I am Catholic. Evolution is not a "belief system" any more than biochemistry is.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 29, 2003.

You are wrong, Paul. Evolution is a belief system. Evolutionism. Its a form of atheism, I think.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 29, 2003.

The fact that Darwin was an atheist, and presented his scientific findings from that perspective, doesn't make evolutionary biology a "form of atheism" any more than atheistic brain surgeons make brain surgery a "form of atheism". No area of science is either theistic or atheistic. Science just explores the natural world. It does not try to relate the natural world to the supernatural. However, individual scientists may be either theistic or atheistic, and just like anyone else will look at their reality through the lenses of their world view. If a person is an atheist, then he will assume that evolution took place atheistically. But, if a person acknowledges the existence of the One True God who created all things from nothing by an act of His infinite will, and continues to maintain them in existence, then it is immediately obvious that a natural system by which species change and are gradually replaced by other species is a wonder which could only have been designed and put into place by the mind of God. Obviously things cannot change (evolve) unless they first exist. Therefore evolution, from any rational perspective, demands creation.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 29, 2003.

You are missing the point, though. There are scientific theories about how everything came to be, and they have as much physical proof as any faith--almost none. That may offend someone, but that is just too bad. No one currently has enough proof to physically disprove any religion, and don't claim you do, because, unless you are some sort of prodigy, you do not, and even if you were a prodigy, I highly doubt you would have proof.

Evolutionism IS a belief system. You can look it up, but its there.

Once again with the arrogance, Paul...you annoy me very much sometimes.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 29, 2003.


There is no workable scientific theory for how everything came into existence from nothing, because such an occurence lies outside the realm of science. It is scientifically impossible! But of course that has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution is not the study of origins. It is the study of change in things which already exist.

Obviously your statements about lack of physical proof for faith are correct. Scientists deal with the physical, and therefore need physical proof. Faith is spiritual, and therefore transcends physical proof. However, it is irrational to say that physical proof is the only valid proof, when you observe that many thousands of Christian people have willingly gone to their deaths rather than relinquish that which they KNEW by faith to be true and correct. Obviously the proof they had experienced was sufficient, and left them with no doubt regarding the truth. This is in sharp contrast to the physical proofs of science, which can always be changed, or even reversed or abandoned in light of new evidence. How many scientists have gone to their deaths rather than relinquish their scientific beliefs?

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 29, 2003.


Hi Shane X.

It is amazing to learn about how something works or the science of events or things. But, science still cannot identify the source or will that makes these events or things possible. My opinion is that we should learn as much as possible through science with the understanding that God is the ultimate source of everything. Do you know why a quark exists or why it behaves as it does? My science can never answer this question. My faith answers, "because God has willed it".

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 29, 2003.


Paul, my point was that Evolutionism is a belief system. I wasn't talking about Creationism, or something. You are twisting my words.

I KNOW Evolution does not talk about how things came into being. Some believe it was a cosmic sort of creation, some believe it was the work of a higher being, etc. That can be discussed for days on end.

AGAIN with the arrogance, Paul? Claiming your religion is superior to all others is a form of bigotry. At least I'M open-minded.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 29, 2003.


Well I'll concede that a person, lacking anything more substantial, COULD make evolution his central belief system - or ecology - or cosmology - or any number of other ologies. What a misguided and paltry belief system that would be! Actually it would not be too different from other forms of paganism in which the creation is worshipped in one way or another, and endowed with anthropomorphic powers which rightfully belong to the Creator.

However, for a person who has God as the central core of his existence and his belief system, biology and physics, like everything else in creation, fall into proper perspective. For such a person, evolution or cosmology or ecology are simply little pieces of the natural order which can be examined by natural means to yield natural information, without reference to the supernatural, or "belief systems". Such an approach is called science. And no true finding of science can possibly conflict with any true doctrine of religion. Both faith and nature are of divine origin, and God does not contradict Himself.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 29, 2003.


Fine. Can I just try something to make you a little less harsh towards the Wiccan religion?

Catholocism believes in an all-holy, all-powerful God. He is three beings in Himself- The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Wicca believes in an all-powerful entity that created all. That entity is called the All, or the Divine. This is not to suggest that it is a force, but it simply doesn't assign a gender, because it transcends earthly matters. The All then is two beings in itself, the God and Goddess. All the deities of other pantheons- Greek, Egyption, etc.- are aspects, or faces, of the God and Goddess, that people have created to sort of familiarize themselves with the God and Goddess.

Sure, there are some differences, but there are also a lot of similarities...for the sake of peacefulness, is it okay to say that the All is (more or less) the same being as God?

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 29, 2003.


From what I've read, some of you are trying to force your opinions down Shane's throat, saying the Catholic religion is the only good one or right one out there. To some it may be but what about those who want to become Pagan or something else? Would you people still force your opinions on someone? I mean yes, you can state them but only to a certian point. Going beyond that point would be saying 'Hey! Your stupid so is your religion! Join mine because it's the right one and the better one.' Anyhow, I am rambling most likely. I will go and come back later to see if I've had any responses on this little bit of whatever it may be.

-- Katz (nnys_stalker_777@yahoo.com), March 29, 2003.

Hi, Shane, If The All was the same being as our "I AM" (The Holy Trinity), then He (The All?) spoke to Abraham and revealed Himself, and set forth rules and promises to His people who keep His commands. He sent His Son to come among us, and made a new covenant with His people, leaving them a Church, in which they are to serve Him. This Church, He promised, would always be guided and protected from error by the Holy Spirit. This is how our God has shown Himself to His people. (Incidentally, we say Him, He, His, but God the Father & Holy Spirit are spirit, hence genderless...God the Son was the Word, also genderless, until taking on a human nature, that of a man.)

I hope we don't have a shouting match! (As you suggested above.) I wouldn't mind asking a few questions about your religion, so I better understand where you are coming from, and where other wiccans are coming from. In exchange, I offer you some basics of our Faith, so that you understand that what the Church teaches is sinful, we cannot and will not condone.

It's not a matter of hatred. We don't hate you; we don't hate wiccans in general. We simply don't believe that the Wiccan religion offers absolute Truth, and we believe that the Catholic Church does. Will that stop us from dialoging? Not unless you want to. Will it cause us to begin shouting at one another? I see no reason why it should.

I'm not about to convert to Wicca, and you're not about to convert to Catholicism. So let's just try to understand what each believes, for the sake of understanding.

I assure you, I asked my questions with no preconceived notions at all. I've heard these terms, had very limited experiences with some, and just would like to better understand it all. However, from what you tell me, no one can really explain it. Some believe it's this, some believe it's that. Are there no absolutes? When wiccans get together, do they all believe the same thing? It sounds as though they do not. Has wicca changed much over the centuries, or is there any way of knowing? Surely, you must have some historical records, given your religion is so old? Is there no hierarchy? (I'd explain our hierarchy, but I assume you already know. The Church has a visible head, the pope, etc. Will explain further if you're interested.)

Oh, maybe one more question. How do you show honor to The All? We offer a Holy Sacrifice, the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus, to the Father, daily.

(Let me know if my manner of exchanging information is irritating. I am just throwing out random thoughts, so I have no hidden purpose for asking these questions...)

Pax Chrisit.

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), March 29, 2003.


It is not an "opinion" that the Catholic Church is the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ for all men. It is a documented historical fact. It is likewise a fact that God has revealed Himself as one supreme entity incorporating three separate and distinct Persons, none of who is identified as a "goddess". You say we can state our beliefs, but "only to a point". What do you consider the point at which Catholic beliefs should no longer be stated on a CATHOLIC forum?

If all religions are of equal value, and we should give them all equal respect, then truth obviously does not matter. If truth doesn't matter, then why bother with religion at all? What is the point of going through life professing absolute faith in something that is probably or even possibly not true? Jesus said that the truth would set people free. He gave His Church the fullness of truth. Beliefs which conflict with that divine truth are, by definition, untrue. Sorry if that sounds a bit rigid, but truth is rigid, absolute, and objective. It is not a matter of opinion.

That having been said, it is impossible to force your beliefs on another person. Everyone has free will, and can accept or reject anything they wish. If you mean that we present the truths of our faith forcefully then yes, we do - thank God - and with good reason. We do not identify members of other religions as "stupid" - just wrong. The idea that Christians should be "open-minded" or "tolerant" toward the false beliefs of manmade religions is pure nonsense. Truth is not open to untruth. The Word of God says "if anyone, even an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!" (Gal 1:8-9) Tolerance toward false beliefs? NOT!

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 29, 2003.


Hi All.

Paul- your words are good. Very few people around me can speak/teach the same thing. And, those few people are the very ones I need around me to build my faith. I forget where in Sirach, it says to go and seek the wisdom of others. There are many here in this forum who are thought provokers--a good thing. Your replies are strengthening my knowledge and faith. Thanks!

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 29, 2003.


Anna: You have many, many good questions. There is a lot I cannot answer as of this moment, but I can answer a few. For hierarchy, it all depends on your situation. If you are a solitary practicioner (sp?) you answer to only the God or Goddess. If you are in a coven, or another such group, there is usually a High Priest or Priestess (or sometimes both) and you answer to them (its kind of like a mini- church segment, with the HP's representing the Pope, or something.) We honor the God and Goddess through the respect they deserve. They do not want us to bend down and worship them (although we DO recognize the fact that they are higher beings--I'm not saying we are their equals). They want us to work WITH them, but, of course, they will aid us when we can do no more. We respect them greatly. And, since we honor and respect them, and they are the All, we honor the All that way. There are many different varieties of Wicca, and most everyone forms their own way of practice, but there ARE a few cardinal rules that everyone follows. To mention a few, the Wiccan Rede, the Threefold Law, etc. If you want to know more, we can talk about it later.

Paul: Yes, it is an opinion. Give me one, solid piece of evidence that your religion is the one, superior religion--and don't give me anything that comes from the Bible, because that is a document that relies on Faith for it to be believed, and thats fine, but it is by no means a documented database that can be applied to history.

I never SAID truth was a matter of opinion, but faith is not truth. Faith is something you believe in without physical proof. If there was physical proof that could not be disputed, it wouldn't be faith anymore, it would be fact. Many people look upon faith as a sort of theory. You can THINK that what Jesus said is the only way, and I'm sure its not a bad way, but I believe that it is NOT the only way, and neither of us has any solid, nondisputed proof that either of us are right.

It IS possible to force your religious beliefs on another person, particuarlly if you threaten them, or insert your beliefs in a childs mind, a mind that has not yet formed a solid concept of right and wrong, a child open to any form of corruption. Well, you identify our religion as wrong? I identify your religious concepts--the concepts that claim only your religion is true-- as wrong. Where does that leave us? Now don't go around saying the Bible and such is pure, undisupted truth--sure, you may believe it is the "Word of God", but none of us were alive when it was written. Isn't it entirely possible--even REMOTELY possible, with a .00000000000000000000000001% chance-- that is could have been written by a bunch of crazy people, who were making stuff up as they go along? And don't go saying "Well, they may have been crazy, but God inserted those thoughts into their head, because he chose them to be his prophets" or anything like that, because I don't buy it. Paul, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you have an arrogance problem. You HAVE to be openminded about certain, abstract things, otherwise you will be viewed as a bigot. You believe your religion is supreme? Fine. That is your belief, and I respect that. But DON'T go blasting me with Catholic information unless I request it.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 30, 2003.


Hi Everyone.

Yikes! I used to greet everyone with "Hi All". Now, so that I won't get confused with the Wiccans , I'll change my greeting.

Shane? Can you prove the existence of "All" or is it your faith that is enough for you?

Have you seen, talked, or touched your god and goddess? Why haven't I seen your gods? Why am I not convince? Can you show facts of your god's existence that prove that your gods are the true source of "All"?

rod

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 30, 2003.


Its faith, of course. But can YOU prove the existance of your God? Don't ask me to do something unless you are prepared to do the same.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 30, 2003.

Dear Shane,

"DON'T go blasting me with Catholic information unless I request it"

A: What else would you expect to receive, having posted your views on a CATHOLIC site??? You can easily avoid receiving Catholic information by posting on a non-Catholic site.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 30, 2003.


Hi Shane.

You have made the observation that we use faith instead of fact to prove the existence of God. Faith-the very thing that you have proclaimed to be your proof of your god and goddess. If you can accept your faith, then you should accept our faith as the instrument of proof. The main point that makes Christianity true is the logic, beauty, and inspiration that only God can give us. I have taken a look at other so-called "religions"(pagan). I cannot find the truth in any other except what God has given us. I speak of Christianity.

I ask you Shane to have a strong look at your beliefs and compare it to God's Word. Look for the beauty of His Grace. Look hard and see if you can witness the difference before closing the "door" to Christianity. You are always free to choose. We all have free will.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 30, 2003.


Rod, you didn't get what I was saying. None of us have physical proof about our religions. You recognize your religion as the one for everyone, I recognize my religion as the one for me. You may disagree with that, well fine. I disagree with you.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 30, 2003.

And Rod, I HAVED compared Christianity to Wicca. It wasn't an easy transition, going from Christian to Wiccan. Many of my family members do not like it.

The fact is, I no longer recognize the existence of your God. I'm sure He is real to you, but he isn't to me. Everything you have claimed is the beauty of your God, I find as the beauty of the God and Goddess.

I don't want to offend anyone, but its just the way it is for me. Please respect that.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 30, 2003.


Hi Shane,

I know a little bit of the Three fold rule; that's where if you do something evil, the All is going to cause you to experience triple the evil that you committed, and if you do good, the All will triple back to you goodness, right? I'm probably oversimplifying here.

Of course, as a former Christian, you are well aware that the Bible teaches that God repays us a hundredfold. I really believe that! Here's a story for you: a true story. One Christmas Eve, I went to Midnight Mass. (It's really beautiful; if you ever get the chance-- go! Even a pagan, excuse the expression would love the majesty and imagery expressed at Midnight Mass) Anyway, I was completely broke. During the offertory, a basket is passed around, and we place donations to support the Church into the basket. I dropped into the basket my last dollar bill. Nobody knew how much, nor how little I had donated. After the Mass, I took my little bunchkins up to the Manger to get a closer look at the Baby Jesus. On my way up, someone walked up to me, wished me a Merry Christmas, and pressed something into my hand. To my surprise, it was a hundred dollar bill...

Now, I don't expect for God to send me pennies from heaven, but as He says, He cares for the sparrows and the lillies of the field, and He takes care of His children, too. I have experienced that first hand in many ways.

Soon Easter will be upon us, and if I may, I would like to invite you to the Easter Triduum. It is amazing. There is nothing more spectacular in any Church, anywhere, than this three-day event. (No, you don't have to stay in Church for three days! lol) You simply attend services for three nights in a row. I hope you'll say Yes! I hope you will go, because then you'll see something of the rituals that Catholics practice. Just remember, you may not go up to receive Holy Communion. That is reserved for Catholics only, and is very sacred to us. But, you could still come and enjoy just watching and experiencing what we do during this, our holiest season. (You still have time to think about it, the Easter Triduum is the 3 days before Easter Sunday.)

I have a few other questions...I had asked before how many faces the All has. I asked this, because I saw a list of the "A" names, and there was like 100 names there! And that was just the "A's"! So, it must be nearly impossible to know all these faces...

How does the High Priest get chosen or elected? Does the coven select them by human reason, such as a vote, or is it more ritualistic?

You probably know that our priests enter a college called a seminary, where they study for many years, and go through various stages of education and formation before they are officially ordained. Many drop out, realizing that the priesthood is not for them. Those that remain become priests when they receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Then there are certain (for lack of a better word) promotions, whereby the priest is given the title Monsignor from his bishop. Bishops are priests who are raised to that higher office by the pope. The pope, himself is a bishop who was elected by the other bishops after intense prayer, often lasting many days.

Do you mind my asking, Who do you think Jesus Christ was? There is certainly historical data, tracing the lineage of King David, to affirm that indeed there was such a man. Or do you doubt His very existance? And if I didn't ask before, and if I wouldn't be too intrusive, what Christian denomination did you belong to before you became wiccan? Just wondering.

Oh, also, Do you like Tolkien, and/or C.S. Lewis?

Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), March 30, 2003.


Hi Shane.

I am searching for the one truth. I never claimed that any one doctrine is the one true doctrine. I do know that Christianity is the one true faith. In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is not just a bunch of words for me--it is real.

Why aren't we Buddist? Because it just doesn't "jive". Right? Yet, there are many who are Buddist. All we can do is to show our faith in God. Hopefully, all will see the truth and believe.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2003.


Anna: Yes, in the Wiccan religion, and other such religions, there are many aspects of the All, however, it is not nescessary for us to know them. Many simply believe in two beings--the God and Goddess-- while others believe in a multitude of beings--the All's individual aspects. Those that fall in the latter category most likely do not know every single face of the All, but, most likely, only several. It all depends on what we are asking for...if we ask for courage, we ask a certain god/goddess, if we ask for knowledge, another, etc...Also, I'm not entirely sure how a Wiccan High Priest/Priestess is selected, as I am not currently a member of a coven, nor have I ever been, so I cannot answer that question.

Rod: I understand what you are saying, but the fact is, it is what YOU believe. I believe something different. I'm not trying to force you to believe what I believe. You believe that your religion is the only true religion, and I respect your beliefs, although I do not agree with them. You aren't going to convince everyone on the planet that Catholocism is the only religion that is true. If you do, most likely, a lot of the religions that believe every religion has validity will begin to close up, and think THEIR religion is the only true one. I'm not trying to change your beliefs, I'm just trying to make you understand that it isn't fair to say another religion doesn't make sense to anyone. It may not make sense to YOU, but there are people it makes sense to.

And PLEASE don't have anyone erase this topic...I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone. I originally opened this topic to have a fair, open-minded discussion about any religion, and once again, its turned into a topic where people keep trying to tell me I'm wrong (with the exception of Anna, who is actually sticking to the topic for the most part)

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 31, 2003.


Oh, and Anna, I DO believe in the existance of a man who was known as Jesus Christ. It is historically confirmed. I don't believe in him on a religious level, but that is because of my religion.

Before Wicca, I was a Protestant (I think thats the correct term, right?) My entire family just called ourselves Christian and let it go at that.

I like C.S. Lewis. Tolkien is supposed to be a wonderful writer, but I was only able to read one of his books (The Hobbit). I tried reading the first LOTR book, but after an entire chapter was spent describing the scenery of the area, I set it aside (thats probably an exaggeration, but its what it felt like).

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 31, 2003.


As a Catholic, I recognize parts of our religion as faith-based beliefs. Many Catholics call these beliefs "facts", a word which is sometimes defined as "something believed to be true or real". This muddys the waters when trying to debate others who believe otherwise, and who can just as easily state "facts" about their religions. There are many Christian faiths, for example, which will argue between themselves over the biblical "facts" as they are presented in the Bible.

What evidence do I find convincing about the Catholic faith? (1) Personal feelings of what I can only describe as holiness and grace exclusively felt as a result of Catholic sacraments. (2) The tracing of a Papal succession from Peter to the current Pope. (3) Various accounts of miracles that are associated with the Catholic church. Two that come to mind are the appearance in the sky of an apparition of Mary in Egypt in the 1960's, and the transubstantiation of bread and wine into actual flesh and blood in Italy in the 1500's.

(someone who has a better memory than me might be able to provide more details on those miracles...)

The Shroud of Turin is still open for debate, isn't it?

-- DavidCyrus (DavidCyrus@yahoo.com), March 31, 2003.


David: finally, someone who understands that, despite what your personal beliefs are, stating that your religion is "fact", not just "faith", will result in nothing good. Not to say that its not okay to BELIEVE your religion is pure fact, but I just don't think its fair to go around shouting to people that "oh, your religion is wrong, you are worshipping the devil, you are going to Hell". I'm going to have to deal with enough of that from my Uncle and his family (fundamentalist Christians...my Uncle is a pastor).

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), March 31, 2003.

Shane, I have to get off the computer. My son needs it. David does make a really interesting point about Church confirmed miracles. The Church is the last one to pronounce anything a miracle. By that I mean, they investigate every possibility that it is NOT a miracle, before admitting and giving their stamp of approval, that it truly is one. If I had five more minutes on the computer, I could give you some great links. Perhaps you could do a search, using the words Miracle of Lanciano. The bread and wine, in the 1200's turned into human tissue and blood, which is still visible today, despite no preservatives of any kind. I'm not asking you to believe in it, but it is really awesome. Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), April 01, 2003.

Not that I would be disappointed if you did believe in it, mind you...;)

Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), April 02, 2003.


Hi Shane.

Let me quote your reply:

"I just don't think its fair to go around shouting to people that "oh, your religion is wrong, you are worshipping the devil, you are going to Hell".

Is it the "shouting" or the fact that a religion may be "wrong" that you find to be a problem?

Logically thinking, how can all or a combination of religions be true if they are all different?

How can we allow ourselves to deny others the chance to weigh the evidence of what we believe to be the truth?

If we believe that we have the truth, why would we accept any other religion? Sure, we can learn about other religions, but when they prove false we must point it out.

Wouldn't you do the same, Shane?

If it boils down to faith, we must go with that which makes sense and is good. I can't find these qualities in any other religion except for Christianity. I'm still learning about Catholicism since childhood.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 02, 2003.


Rod: I don't like people claiming other religions are "obviously false or wrong", because its bigotry. Its a lot like racism, on a religious level, and not quite as harsh, but the similarity is still there. It almost always boils down to faith, and when that does, who's to say what is right and what is wrong? I believe one thing, you believe another. If it is all down to faith, there is no physical proof. Catholocism makes sense to you, my religion makes sense to me. So really, there is nothing left to do but either argue pointlessly about it, or let the subject drop...

Anna: How do these alleged miracles show Catholocism is the only true religion? Now, I don't want to offend anyone, so don't take this the wrong way--I'm just playing devil's advocate. Who's to say the miracles weren't caused by another diety? Or, if it was caused by the Christian God, who's to say He's the only deity out there? I know many people, of many religions, who say "well, if there is one, why can't there be others"? Just because someone is all powerful doesn't mean there can't be another like them. Okay, I'm done playing devil's advocate for now.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 02, 2003.


Shane

by your logic, you and I and the world are all "religious bigots". Jesus made it clear to avoid paganism; I shall.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 02, 2003.


Thats not what I said at all. I just said it was a form of bigotry to claim your religion is superior to all others. Thats what bigotry IS, after all...claiming you, or your attributes, beliefs, etc, are the only RIGHT ones.

You can avoid paganism because Jesus said so, according to the Bible, but I don't believe Jesus was a Divine figure, so I'm going to keep up with my religion, and if you don't like that, too bad.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 02, 2003.


Shane,

You are free to believe whatever you wish. No one can force you to believe otherwise. The Salem witch hunts are over with now. ;)

However, coming upon a Catholic forum and telling us that our Church is not the One, True Church, could also make you appear to be a religious bigot.

We should all be able to practice our Faith in peace, and respect one another's right to believe in "whatever" it is we believe in. If there is interest in an exchange of understanding, then we can share information for that purpose.

When you come upon a Catholic forum, you can expect that we will believe that our Church is the One True Church.

I didn't give you the Miracle information to prove anything to you, except that Jesus promised that the Eucharist is truly His flesh, and that He showed us that, with this particular miracle. There are many Eucharistic miracles, both approved by the Church, and phenomena not necessarily approved as miraculous as well. I just thought you might find it interesting. Was I supposed to be proving something? I'll have to scroll up and re-read...

Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), April 03, 2003.


I KNOW I was expressing my religious beliefs...in defense. I made this topic for equal religious discussions about any religion, NOT Catholocism vs. Paganism. I wasn't the one to bring it up...

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 04, 2003.

Ok, Shane.

So, what do you do (in your religion) when you're feeling stressed?

We Catholics generally take time to meditate on some favorite prayers, devotions, or Scriptures. We may sit quietly in front of the Body of Christ,(Eucharist) located in the tabernacle of every Catholic Church.

Or, we may ask the intercession of a particular saint(s) or friend(s) to pray for us.

It is definitely time for me to go pray a few decades of the Most Holy Rosary!

Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), April 04, 2003.


A variety of things...often, forms of meditation.

-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 04, 2003.

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