Hello Catholics and non-Catholics,

God exists for us because of the many ways God is presented to us. Someone said we know God though his gifts. On another thread I noticed that another person's lack of belief in God was at the root of a breakdown in our communication. So I'd like to use this thread to foster belief and knowledge of the existence of God.

Atheism (from Greek atheos godless) can be a total rejection of God. Usually it is in a more hidden form such as agnosticism. Or pantheism in the forms of materialism or intellectualism. The list is endless (And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" He replied, "My name is Legion; for we are many. Mark 5:9 )

To help such people, I'd like to hear what personal experiences a God fearing person had, to arrive at a belief in God. Especially what lines of reasoning did you use to help you arrive at this belief? Not that you can prove God mathematically but what is some reasoning helping you to make that leap of faith into moving in God's direction, thus renewing or beginning your journey home.

Conversion experiences in general would be neat to hear too. But I'd also like to know how one's mind eventually caught up to make sense of that experience or to complete that experience. It may be some short work you read that clicked for you while on your journey. So this thread doesn't have to only be thoughts right from an initial conversion time. Some of you may be life long believers.

Some of my early experiences were this. I suffered in the grip of alcoholism. From this, my troubles with the civil law courts, required my getting counseling, this led me back to God who miraculously kept me sober. Sobering up was something I tried to do on my own many times but could never do. A few months later, I had to use my reasoning in order to combat doubts about God's existence. God's existence ought to make sense! and not just because he saved me from danger once. (I'm weak)

So I thought about God... and thought if there was no God then how could that be? How could I exist? Reason #1. The line of creation goes back to my parents and theirs and theirs....who made the first person or thing?. Also I was amazed by God's universe, the unexplainable things. If my reason is good but finite than there must be a God who created the unexplainable things and can explain the unexplainable things that my reason can't grasp or seem to make use of. The unexplainable things send me to find God who alone can explain it and satisfies my reason if not in this life than in the life to come.

For instance, a number line has an infinite number of points between any two points. Between 1.0 and 2.0 is 1.5, between 1.5 and 2.0 is 1.75, between 1.5 and 1.75 is 1.59 etc. So we cross an infinite number of points or spaces in traveling from one point to another. Every time I physically move it is an infinite proposition although on the surface it appears to be limited. How can that be?

Also this, the number of unexplained mathematical and scientific items keeps increasing. Every scientific answer adds several times that amount in questions to the scientific agenda for later study. This implies there is limit to what we can know compared to what is knowable. And what is knowable is infinite. These things point to God for me.

Of course there are always beliefs in God which come about through the scriptures and teachings of Mother Church.

Which one(s) clinched a belief in God for you?

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 06, 2003

Answers

Long post, hmmm

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 06, 2003.

Mike,

No one can ever prove the existence of God. At the end of the day, for one to believe in the existence of God, one has to give the assent of faith.

How does none acquire faith you might ask? Well, from scripture we are told that faith is a gift from God. God wills that all men be saved (1 Tim. 2:4), but not all men are open to His will: When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do you say that the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in Heaven.” (Matthew 16:13-17)

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), April 06, 2003.

so far as i am aware (!), neither can anyone prove the non-existence of God. you therefore require a leap of non-faith to be Atheist. that is something they conveniently forget. in fact i believe it is the basis of obe good reason to make the leap when you consider what happens when you take the wrong option.

in terms of personal experience i can only speak for myself, but i believe that it is possible to be born just knowing. you know, the code is embedded in your head. the hard bit is to listen and to try to be a good Catholic because modern living puts so many temptations in the way.

granted, some will argue that "just knowing" is also the basis for manys a superstition and so i guess that i rely on a leap of faith that comes to us all in different ways.

one thing i am pretty confident about, however, is that, unless a child is given religious teaching early on, it becomes less and less likely that he/she will ever embrace God. there are exceptions, but my experience is that people brought up in a secular environment just do not seem to have the ability to imagine that God actually exists. any attempt to use a logical proof is dismissed as word- play even if they cannot provide a counter argument. the whole notioned is scorned.

-- Ian (ib@vertigfo.com), April 07, 2003.

If you believe that God exists, God exists. If you believe that something is real, it is real. Then, we experience our whole lives witnessing God's creation and miracles. Then, we spend our thoughts deciding if what we believe is real. Then, as some do, we reject the whole thing about God. It is best not question the existence of God. It is best to see God in all that we experience. If we exist, than God exists. God exists even when we don't (atheists).

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 07, 2003.

Fun thoughts on a serious questions from those in the past.

Freud: - " There most be something that holds all this to-gether. "

Atheist - " Why am I arguing with God on the issue? "

Bishop of Lourdes France during Bernadettes ordeal - " For those who ask there is no answer - For those who believe there is no question. -

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), April 07, 2003.

Thanks everyone. I understand that God himself is instrumental in any belief in Him but we know that reason also helps faith. Reason is a supreme gift from God to humans and nothing substantially compares to human reason in any other species. Even though human reason is not infinite in its ability to probe mystery it still can probe mystery to some extent. Finally, by using reason to discuss "why God must exist" in a logical manner from experiences is also a gift from God. And this line of thought will appeal to atheist/agnostics. (be clever as serpents)

"To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law--though not being myself under the law--that I might win those under the law." 1Cor 9:20

We must get in tune with this because it is how the opposition thinks. We must use their god (human reason) against their position to the fullest.

Sincerely

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 07, 2003.

Yup! I hear you Mike.

I look at the quarks and can only conclude that God exists.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 07, 2003.

The point I was trying to make was suddenly presented on another thread by John. The error of Traditionalism:

"According to traditionalism, human reason is of itself radically unable to know with certainty any truth or, at least, the fundamental truths of the metaphysical, moral, and religious order. Hence our first act of knowledge must be an act of faith, based on the authority of revelation. This revelation is transmitted to us through society, and its truth is guaranteed by tradition or the general consent of mankind."...

..."Since Traditionalism, in its fundamental principles, is a kind of Fideism, it falls under the condemnation pronounced by the Church and under the refutation furnished by reason and philosophy against Fideism."

Catholic Encyclopedia

Therefore we can use reason alone to come to an awareness in God but it is not the only way.

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 07, 2003.

My reasoning went like this. You have dreams that come true. How could that be possible if your body is in the present? Something happened. a) Someone told you or b) You went into the future.

If a) someone told you, who is that someone if spirits don't exist?

if b) If you went into the future, then only your spirit went into the future. So spirits do exist.

Answer to both is : spirits exist. Thus, there is a spirit world.

If there is a spirit world, then there is someone who controls the spirits.

Answer: that someone is that existing one = yahweh.

Up until this day I found out that about 30% of the people remember had a dream that came to be true by age 18. Keyword is remember. We don't remember more than 95% of our dreams.

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 07, 2003.

My previous post Mike was by reasoning. I reasoned God until age 37 1/2 in 2000. At that time I saw him and also he and I talked. That was by dream revelation. The revelation had a prophecy to it. It became fulfilled this year, 2003.

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 07, 2003.

Hi Elpidio.

I am imagine that people look at you funny because of your experience. I won't ask about the prophecy. Usually, God reveals things to people and then people must do some action that seems difficult to do. Did you have to do something difficult?

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 08, 2003.

Experience and knowledge shows me that human reason is a non-material power, that is, we can and do think of non-material and non-temporal things which are real: justice, truth, goodness, beauty... "rights" etc.

Now, we are obviously physical beings. But if we have this power of reason and free will, we must have a non-material part of our being.

But wait a second... we didn't create our selves! And while Sex provides the material wherewithall for our bodies, physical things like molecules and cells (which are spatio-temporal) can't have effects which are non-spatial-temporal...non material... so therefore our immaterial power or quality must come from somewhere.

But since we are persons to the degree with have intelligence and freewill, it's very logical to presume that some other person created our souls.

In reality there are many plausible directions this line of reasoning can lead- and none of it is atheism.

I have never heard a cogent and coherent argument for atheism or for human beings not having spiritual souls.

-- Joe (Joestong@yahoo.com), April 08, 2003.

Hi Joe.

You said this,"...it's very logical to presume that some other person created our souls."

It seems very ILLOGICAL to presume that some other PERSON created our souls. Here is my reasoning:

God is not of this universe. God is not from "somewhere". God is not limited to the materials of this universe. If God were, then God would have a beginning. God does not have a beginning or end. God was not created. God is. God is not confined to matter, space, or time. Our thoughts are given by God. Thoughts cannot be physically touched, yet thoughts have the power to make things real and eventually tangible. God is thought. God's thoughts created all that we experience. One day we will all be with God. Some will perish while some will have eternal existence.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 08, 2003.

Elpidio,

That's pretty cool reasoning about dreams that come true. A time machine, now that does sound like God. What is that he is, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent which would cover time travel.

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 08, 2003.

Joe

Yes, I read that formal atheism is self-refuting.

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 08, 2003.

Rod, I don't understand your post.

I mean, technically speaking spiritual souls (such as ours)are part of "this universe" only because they "forms of our physical matter" which is spatio-temporal, and thus part of this universe.

The universe is physical yet man is more than physical. Man is - by evidence of his activity: rational and free, more than physical. Man has attributes, powers which are beyond the physical realm of reality and thus cannot be caused by the universe.

So the spiritual nature of our souls (life force, principle of life, form of matter, etc.) can likewise not be found within the universe of atoms and forces....

Matter is not alive. It can be animated, but that animation comes from elsewhere. If a living being acts like man in ways that defy space and time, then whatever animates man cannot be the effect of space and time.

Human souls are therefore not the result of any activity of the universe, but of some ONE beyond the universe.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), April 09, 2003.

Hi Joe.

I think that we are saying the same thing and are agreeing with each other. Except for one tiny thing:

Yes, we are made of stellar material, but I'm not so sure that our thoughts are. In God's image may include our Spiritual make up. If God is going to "talk" to us, then We must surely share a fraction of His devine Spirit, which is not of this universe but totally of God. We have eternal life, but not in this universe. Eternal life will be in either Heaven or Hell. And, where is Heaven? Surely not in the universe, right?

It is simply too difficult to Imagine a place in this universe as being Heaven. This has a ring of "of the flesh" to it. Things of the flesh is not our driving force. It is our Spirit that drives us to God.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 09, 2003.

Yes, I agree. we are mostly saying the same thing.

One point though. Our souls, as forms of our bodies are "here" though they are not metaphysically "made of star dust". Nor are we little bits of God... He created individual souls - spiritual souls to be sure, but distinct from Himself.

And heaven does have space - because there are bodies there such as Christ's, Mary's, and one would presume also Elijah and Moses...

But we believe there will be a new heavens and earth in the resurrection. Like Eden, I don't think this can be found until it is revealed.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), April 09, 2003.

Hm....

you've given me something to think about, Joe.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 10, 2003.

A great philosopher, i forget who at the moment, said...

1-- if my eyes can decieve me then i must not be able to believe in that which i see and cannot, therefore, believe in the world around me.

2-- if i cannot believe in the world around me then i must doubt God as well.

3-- if i doubt God then I must doubt that i exist.

4-- There is only one thing in this entire existance that I cannot doubt... I cannot doubt that I am doubting.

5-- to doubt i must be thinking

6-- to think i must be (see I think therefore i am)

7-- if i exist, i must have a creator (God-- see the laws of causality, God is referred to as the first cause without cause, or the first uncaused cause)

8-- if I believe that there is a God, I must also believe that this God would create a place for me to exist.

In this way, through philosophical (non theological) proof, one can be sure that God exists.

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), April 17, 2003.

ah, i remember, rene descartes said that

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnEmail.com), April 18, 2003.