Our school and family had a jolt yesterday when one of the most competent and beloved (by children) teachers at our neighborhood parochial school was fired. The woman a 32 year old with superb credentials is our Computer and Technology teacher. We worked very hard to raise money to bring her from part time status to fulltime status this year....

She was allegedly released because of her inability to get along with two other teachers. The two other teachers whose classrooms flank hers on either side have been carrying on a somewhat illicit affair (the woman was separated when she began dating and sleeping with the male teacher..she is now divorced..but the children have reported seeing them carrying on daily--including sneaking off to kiss and make out in a dark closed classroom..). Parents have complained but have been told that it is none of their business... When the fired teacher refused to condone the relationship and had a falling with the female of the pair, things became ulgy.

Currently, the parents have discovered that the computer teacher was on a three year probationary (!) contract. She does not seem to have any legal recourse, but our concern is that she was ousted in favor of a pair whose very activities seem to violate most reasonable expecations and tenets of Catholic School Teacher behavior.

The fired teacher's mother was very incensed and upset about her daughter. The question is does this fired teacher have any recourse whatsoever? Do not suggest the pastor becuase he told her he would stand by the principal (who by the way promptly left early for Easter break for the airport with children sobbing in the hallways and parents standing aghast...)and she was just a know it all little priss...

Help? What can parents do?

-- Elizabeth Bronset (cbraintrus@aol.com), April 16, 2003

Answers

Being a probationary employee does not exclude the possibility of being wrongfully terminated. If you want to do something for her, chip in & hire a labor lawyer, and fight it in Court.

Of course, the whole affair issue will be brought out which can be good or bad for your beloved teacher. Good because I would think the parties would wish to quickly settle rather than face the humiliation of having their dirty little secret aired in a Courtroom - and because children tend to make excellent witnesses. Bad because she'd be bearing a pretty big burden of proof, particularly if she faced any kind of disciplinary action prior to being terminated.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), April 16, 2003.

Okay, I am a teacher and here is my take on the situation from what little information we have.

1. Since she is working in a private school they have a lot more flexibility as far as getting rid of her. There is not the union support that there is in a public school.

2. Something leads me to believe that we are not getting the full story here. As we all know there are three sides to every story. I have also learned over my years of teaching not to trust what students go home and tell their parents in its entirety. (It's not that they are making it up, it's just that what they precieve is not always what really happened.) If the computer teacher was causing a disruption by prying into coworkers personal lives, it could be grounds for her removal. Even though it is a Catholic school, it is very hard for a school to tell it's teachers how to live their personal lives. For that reason, the concerned computer teacher needs to make sure that the proper channels are followed if she had issues with the other two individuals. It wouldn't be her place to confront either teacher, especially as a new teacher.

3. The administrator, despite what you think, possibly has good reason to make such a decision. It is possible that you are not getting all the details. Letting a person go is a very touch and unpleasant situation and I would find it hard to believe that it was done without some serious thought. I am curious about the opinion of the rest of the staff about the teachers involved.

4. If you choose to fight for the computer teacher's job, please remember that battles like these should not be fought through the children. It sounds to me as they are already involved by supplying information. My suggestion would be to keep them out of it, tell them it's a decision that adults are working on, and conduct your appeal in a way that is a good example for you children to follow.

I am sorry if I didn't give you the answer you were looking for, but I can sense by your tone toward the other two teachers, the principal, and the pastor that you are ready to go to battle. Just be sure that you have ALL of the FACTS before you put your neck out on a line and get the reputation as "one of those parents."

Good luck and I hope that in the end it all works out for the best of the children.

Tom

-- Tom (Trit@hotmail.com), April 16, 2003.

i must second tom's opinion. hes right about the fact that there private school has no need to keep her on, so legally there is no recourse. however, if the moral infraction part is true, then you might organize for parents to send letters to the bishop detailing what occured. the bishop would then ask the school to account for their actions, and, if the administration is in error, he would have them fix it. my feeling, however, is that only half of the story has been let out in the open, and it would be best if you got the full shabang before going to the bishop

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), April 16, 2003.

I hate the phrase "it's not your place...etc." It has a master/servant connotation that is quite negative....

How old were the children who witnessed the behavior? Kids today are a lot more savvy about what's going on these days because of TV, for example. Don't dismiss what they say out of hand.

I don't know about others, but YES, I would expect a teacher at a Catholic School to maintain higher standards of behavior while on campus. In fact, I don't care where a teacher teaches, there shouldn't be ANY kind of PDA (public displays of affection) while working.

You could always try to get some photographic evidence of the bad behavior, and you would then have some leverage with the Bishop, instead of it being a "he said, she said," type of thing.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 16, 2003.

Thanks to each of you for your thoughts. I do believe that there is truth to the statement: there's her side, his side and the truth.

The truth is this young woman is quiet (does not go to happy hour with the others on Friday), bookish with a quirky sense of humor. My experience in the work force is that no matter what your general demeanor, you should always attempt to make some allies or friends. And in this case --a very small school--while I think she has the respect of many colleagues, she was told by the principal that despite her competency she was viewed as unapproachable. Despite her heretoforth good reviews, her very good relations with parents and her somewhat legendary beloved status among the children, I think simply put she was viewed as airish and standoffish. She is aLSO THE ONLY TEACHER who volunteers for student clubs (our sponsor for the Scrabble club and the editor for the student newsletter...other teachers do not run or assist in any clubs, most go home at 3:00; a few stay and are paid to help run aftercare)

We now have a hard paid for state of the art computer lab in a city where Catholic schools are just getting into the modern age. Despite her persistent attempts to offer to help teachers design curricula with her help in the lab, to work with their children on projects, a good number are loathe. She wants to show them the amazing things technology can do for the kids and their courses. I have attended one of her sessions (she does love her work). Many teachers want to dump their kids in the lab to do homework or papers while they run acros the street to get a cup of coffee. On that score, there does seem to be a disconnect. It is not just her, but what she teaches and her approach. We have a fair number of techno-phobes and many with a strictly utilatarian approach to lab etc... As someone who has their own business and website, I can honestly say that many view the whole lab and computer thing with trepidation or a little disdain even.

She also made the critical mistake of accusing the principal of interviewing for her job while she still has it. Frankly an environment where all the young teachers are on three year probationary status has a tinge of fear of intimidation.

As someone on the board who helped to bring her status to full time, I have not --nor have the board parents of Home School decided what to do. I will say this however, the inconsistent standards to which teachers are held is appalling to many of these parents.

The major issue brewing there now (as a board member I was inundated with calls all night!)is how two very distracted teachers whom parents have been complaining about since their affair commenced continue to be gainfully employed in our school. BTW this is not one child making up stories, but dozens of parents and students --as an adult setting up for the Scrabble Club I have mysaelf witnessed the gentleman leaving his classroom for 15-twenty minutes at a stretch to flirt with the woman outside of her classroom door. His children are only 7 and 8; hers 8 and 9. They have had loud lovers' quarrels when they thought the building was all clear, including one in which he responded, "I don't care what that F---ing b----- hears" when the woman said be quiet I don' want so and so to hear us....

Ultimately it is a tangled web, but it is clear from the initial parent meetings that parents are extremely angry that one of they eatchers they view as highly competent, warm to their children and a decent moral role model is getting booted while the other two carry on so flagrantly.

And may I say regarding the notion of "becoming one of those parents", I have learned the hard way that worrying about that is almost futile. My mother was an educator and she refused to spend alot time in the teachers lounge simply because of what she described as constant, unprofessional and hostile gossip about families, parents and their children.

-- Elizabeth Bronset (cbraintrus@aol.com), April 16, 2003.

To be fair, I see the problem with computers/calculators, etc. in the classroom being one of making work 'way too easy for the students. I am not talking here about using the internet for research, that is wonderful, but calculators for example should never be introduced when learning the concepts, only AFTER the children have shown that they can figure out the answers using their brains. Too many kids are TOTALLY UNABLE to do anything when you take away their computers/calculators.

Catholic schools have consistently been able to turn out students who are better students than those at "computer literate" public schools, so the argument that computers have revolutionized education is a joke.

In fact, the best argument for computers is that they make homeschooling from Kindergarten through College much easier and therefore preferable to any kind of regular schooling (except of course for classes that require many people, like band and drama).

Education does not have to be boring, but when it is too entertaining (like a lot of the learn to read computer programs are), well, no wonder kids don't want to pick up a book--it doesn't jump up, move around and talk!

I also think that it is bad to be teaching children to type so early-- we're setting them up for a life of carpal tunnel syndrome and other hand/arm problems. Yes, there are better designed keyboards, but very few are using them, and voice recognition software is not as easy to use as they show on TV with the medical transcription commercials. I'm sure there are teachers who feel the same way I do.

It also could be that the teachers are happy with the way they do something--lesson plans, calendars, whatever--and the computer represents too much of a time investment in a learning curve (which would probably not be paid for on the clock) for what they see as a small payoff. I get tired of having to relearn Quicken and Windows every time I upgrade. Computers are not destruction proof--you drop them and they break, or the drive goes kaput and everything is gone, etc.

I think that your best chance is to get the other two teachers also let go on a "conduct unbecoming" issue (they are, after all endangering children by leaving them alone in class for periods of time). If you point it out that way to your Bishop, they may let your other teacher back in.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 16, 2003.

I also think that it is bad to be teaching children to type so early--

ARE YOU NUTS? computers are the wave of the future... btw, dont use quicken, it seems good, but if you crash you lose your books, its better to keep that kind of stuff on paper. we are entering the computer world where those who know basic functions of computers are going to hold all the keys to success. the most rapidly expanding field in the world is computers. futhermore, by teaching proper posture during typing you avoid the physical debilities that you were speaking of. eitherway, computers are an integral part of the future of the world as we leave the industrial era and enter into the dawn of the information era. to say that we should limit exposure of our children to computers is to limit those children to always being a couple years behind their compatriots.

second, catholic schools do not, on average, produce better students than any other schools. they perform equally as expected.

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), April 17, 2003.

Paul,

Not saying to limit exposure to computers, but to wait until they can do basic reading, writing, math without it. Waiting until high school (instead of learning on the antiquated computers that trickle down to the k-6 grades) would be more productive. I learned FORTRAN in college (punch cards). Talk about a waste of time. FORTRAN was certainly no stepping stone to the computers of today.

As to the typing, in the days of manual typing with QWERTY keyboards (designed deliberately to be slow because of the machine's limitations) your hands were rested every time you lifted your hand to physically return the carriage. This is no longer the case with computers. Your hands are constantly in that awkward position. And, realistically, unless you have big bucks you are not using the computer at a perfectly ergonomically designed desk--and you certainly are not putting that money into a child's desk. So, if as a good parent you montitor the child's computer time at home, they are either using a laptop next to you, or the desktop computer at the table/desk designed for an adult.

Btw, I keep the checkbooks both ways--DH thinks it's silly, but I feel better that way. And sometimes the low-tech way works as well or has other advantages--think how much your power bill has gone up with computer this, computer that. A book is free and works without a power source. For example, recipe databases are great, but you're not going to drag your computer into the kitchen to spill flour on it....:-)

Also, as far as typing earlier, it is just like all the back problems children are having earlier because they are sometimes carring half their body weight in books because the schools have done away with lockers.

Unless a Catholic school has severe problems, they have always outperformed the public schools in test scores. It would be interesting to compare the ones that are truly religious Catholic schools (Mass every day, religion taught as a subject) with those that are Catholic but have such a high percentage of non-Catholics attending that they don't have Mass and religious education with the public school scores.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 17, 2003.

GT

Catholic schools do indeed 'out-perform' non-denominational schools, whether these schools are Privately or State-Funded. I speak, of course, about schools in the UK, since I don't know how the school system compares in the US. It has been found here time and time again that Catholic school pupils achieve more academically. Children within Catholic schools are more morally aware and live out the Christian ethos in their School Community, and carry it out into the wider community. We are in the fortunate position here that every Catholic child is entitled to receive a Catholic Education, and this is funded by the Government, we have very few Privately Owned Catholic Schools. This means that each Catholic school is equipped to the same standard as any other school, including the supply of computers. The Church retain authority over who is employed within a Catholic School in this country. Whoever wishes to be employed by a Catholic School must be approved by the Church, and in order to do this must be living according to Catholic Teachings, and supply references from two priests.

Our schools provide such a wonderful education for our children that parents of other Christian Denominations often decide to enrol their child in our schools, as well as Muslim Parents, who appreciate the high moral standards within the Catholic Education System. This doesn't compromise our children's education in the least, as when parents choose to enrol their child in a Catholic schools they know that Catholicism isn't merely restricted to a set Lesson every day, but is part of the whole ethos of the school.

God bless

Sara

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), April 17, 2003.

Hi Sara,

What we have seen here in the states is that the more non-Catholic the student body, the less religion there is in the school (no prayers before lunch, etc.). For many, sadly, Catholic schools are a much cheaper alternative to prep schools, and parents don't even want their children exposed to anything Catholic, so they opt out of Mass or whatever.

When I went to Catholic school, we had one non-Catholic in the class, but she stood for prayers, attended Mass, etc. I don't think it is like that today.

I hope we hear back from Elizabeth--it is always a shame to lose a good teacher.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 17, 2003.

Well, our school is about 70% Catholic and 30% non-Catholic and all the children are required to take religion, participate in morning prayers, and to go to monthly school-wide Mass. Non-Catholic children however do not receive the sacraments.

As for our situation, the teacher followed her parents' suggestion and contacted the head of Catholic School services here in our archidiocese. He met with her Thursday, and he took copious notes. He seemed most interested in the fact that her last two evaluations apparently were stellar and the principal failed to do the one that was due Jan 2003.

The pastor called and left the teacher a message on her home tape machine ( I suspect after he was contacted by the archidiocese) and left an apology for his remarks to her (you know the prissy know it all comment--while screaming it, putting his finger in her face, and with children around....lovely).

The principal and the pastor are set to send a letter to parents saying she was not fired but her contract was terminated. (Right, piss on my leg and tell me it's raining).

The Advisory Board president has requested an emrgency meeting with the the board, principal and the pastor. I suspect we will not get it.

Meanwhile, tension was thick in the school the last day before Easter break. The teachers who are normally ebullient were very quiet. Parents came and went quickly. Also a new policy took effect this week, whereby the teacher's lounge which has all the copy machines used by the PTA and other clubs will be locked and only teachers issued keys.

I think it will get uglier before it get resolves. Having attended Catholic schools my entire life (as have my two children) I will say that at some point these schools are going to have to wake up and realize this is post-Vatican II. At $5,000 a kid, parents are going to want to express their opinions and to be taken seriously. They want accountability and they want some sort of moral standard within the leadership and the faculty.

-- elizabeth bronset (cbraintrus@aol.com), April 19, 2003.