Hello dear friend or fiends, I have a question about first election, the way John Calvin believed. Could you explain with scripture support what a catholic believes or thinks about election. That God draws us and chooses us to become saved because if Christ paid for a person's sins, it would be impossible for that person to go to hell because your sins are forgiven. Being cast into hell would be calling God cruel and a monster if he sent you there while already having paid for your sins. And a true believer who is saved will have an ongoing desire to be with God and a love-hatred struggle for sin. This is what electionist say and believe. They say as your preached the gospel God "secretly" saves you and that is when you begin to have faith in Christ. They quote verses like John 6:37,39,44. And Romans 3:9-18 and especialy verse 11. Also, about baptism my question is if we recieve the Holy Spirit at Baptism as I do believe, but.... howcome Acts 8:12-17 says Phillip baptized people but it never at all says the Holy Spirit comes upon or fills them until they had Peter and John lay hands upon them. Because in Romans 8:9 it says "Now if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His." I've read a commentary in my Catholic Bible that says he had received the Holy Spirit but not in the fullness until he had his confirmation. But I do not understand. And finaly, in Acts 10:44-48 people are baptized after they have faith along with the Holy Spirit. Please write back and explain, and I apollogize for these long questions but i'm spiritualy hungry, your brother in Christ, Jason.

-- Jason Baccaro (LegendsRborn@aol.com), May 01, 2003

Answers

You say that "Being cast into hell would be calling God cruel and a monster if he sent you there while already having paid for your sins." Rather, claiming that God creates some people for salvation while creating other persons for the express purpose of throwing them into Hell without a chance of salvation, would indeed be calling God cruel and a monster. The truth is, God did pay for our sins. He purchased the great gift of salvation with His own body and blood; and He offers that precious gift to every human being (2 Cor 5:14- 15), for He loves every human being equally and perfectly. He does not withhold salvation from any person, but neither does he force it on any person. Every person is free to accept and choose the great gift which is offered, or to choose instead the absence of that gift, which is Hell.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 01, 2003.

jason,

all honest questions...

calvin's idea of the elect is alot different than what you think it is. the basics of the idea of religious elect is that God creates people and predestines them for either hell or heaven. which means, you have a predestination already, and it is already decided that you will go to either heaven or hell. this results in some major flaws of doctrine. if we are free willed creatures, which the Bible says we are, then we would have the choice between good and evil... but predestination does not allow for that. Secondly, as other Paul said, the idea that God would create a person expressly doomed for hell is unfathomable.

What you write about in the second half of your question doesnt relate well to the idea of predestination... except to help disprove it. see, in calvinist predestination, the elect are holy from the moment they are born until they die because, hey, theyre bound for heaven right? but thats not the case. if you read in the Bible, except for cases of miracles, there is a progressive growth of faith by which we gradually come to understand the nature of the paschal mysteries placed before us. we grow through a path of understanding, we are baptized in the holy spirit, and then we grow more before we take first communion and enter the blessed sacrament that our Lord commanded. then when we have reached a level of spiritual maturity, not the end of the path but a significant level along it, we are confirmed in the church and receive the full blessing of the holy spirit. thus all men and women possessing free will can choose to grow in the path of our Lord and have a chance at entering heaven.

Sorry for the lengthy answer, but i hope i have managed to satisfy a part of your question.

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), May 01, 2003.

Paul, or anyone else, I am not saying that I believe in election, or for the fact free will, but I do firmly believe if ANYONE comes to christ and repents believing He paid for their sins, then their on their way to salvation. But, you failed to anwser me my questions. Forgive me if i'm wrong but you seem like you were someone who was startled at the idea of "election". But i'm asking a Catholic to help me understand verses like John6:37,39,44, Romans 3:11 etc. I am very well aware of free willish verses, but alot of verses seem to suggest election as well, like Matthew 15:13, Ephesains 1:4-7, John:1:12-13 etc. The idea even suggest that God hates man, Psalms 5:4-5, and Psalm 11:5, and notice that verse says "but the wicked and HIM that loveth violence His Soul HATETH", the person doing it. And we know that we are not saved by OUR works as Ephesains 2:8-10 tells us, but Jesus in John 6:28-29 says to the people who asked "What might we do to do the WORKS of God", Jesus replies, "This is the WORK of God, that you belive in the one that he sent" We know that man can not have salvation by our works, so, Jesus sounds like he saying God is doing the WORK for you. And First John:3-23, God says it's a COMMANDMENT to believe in Christ, NOT an option. So, if we break that command and deny the reality of Christ we have broken one of God's commandments, and have sined. And, "The wages of SIN (any sin) is death. So Christ would have to had paid for that sin as well, and he did. Jesus paid for every sin on the cross. And i'm not saying God hates us, there are PLENTY of verses where God says He loves us even as sinners, after all, he died for us, and becaqme man, praise Him. Jesus also says in Matthew 23:37 and Luke 13:34 of how He WISHES Jerusulem would COME TO HIM, BUT THEY WILL NOT. Very much sounds like it's THEIR CHOICE. And Paul, about what you said about if God chose to save some and not others, that would make him cruel, well, weather election is true or not, God can save whoever He wants or none at all. Because WE ALL do not deserve Him. But Praise Him for not abandoning us and saving us or ANY who come to him. So please, can someone, perhaps a well bible studied Catholic anwser me questions on election with scripture verses, thank you.

-- Jason Baccaro (LegendsRborn@aol.com), May 01, 2003.

Ok, not John Calvins idea of election, but just an idea of election. When I used to believe in election I learned it from Family Radio's President, Harold Camping. AND I DO NOT ENCOURAGE ANYONE TO LISTEN TO THAT STATION EIGTHER, but I do hope God will bless him. I now find so much truth in the Catholic Church.

-- Jason Baccaro (LegendsRborn@aol.com), May 01, 2003.

"God can save whoever He wants or none at all."

No, that is not true. If God could save anyone He wants, He would of course save every person he loves - and that means every person He has created. He OFFERS salvation to every person He has created, but because He gave men free will, He can save only those who freely choose to accept that offer. He CANNOT save those who refuse to be saved, not because He lacks the power to do so, but because He has already declared that men have free will, and He will not contradict Himself.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 01, 2003.

Paul, i'm curious, are you a Catholic. And also, you are not giving any sccripture on what your saying. Did you see the verses I said? Please do not get mad at me if you are. But they do raise questions to me and I am looking for an answer. And yes God did give us free will. From what I have learned when Adam sinned he became spiritualy dead. So yes we do have a "will" to choose things, but they will always be bad things. Because as Romans says in Chapter 3, the opening verses are talking about the WHOLE HUMAN RACE, "THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD" And God says "Our best works are filthy rags in his sight" Well, to "choose" to believe in Christ would be a GOOD thing wouldn't it? But God says "There is NONE that do good" So that leaves for God to draw us and change us into a Godly creature. Well, I was taught stuff like that. Which is why i'm searching for answers.

-- Jason Baccaro (LegendsRborn@aol.com), May 01, 2003.

jason, this is the second paul again... i appologize for thinking that you were asking about calvins religious elect. i have the answer youre looking for, but unfortunately i packed all my stuff recently because im moving tomorrow. computers the last thing to go i guess. but if you can wait a few days till i can get ahold of a Bible again then i can give you some scripture, etc.

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), May 01, 2003.

Yes I can wait, please write my email adrress and get back to me when you can, I am a fellow Catholic looking for answers.

-- Jason Baccaro (LegendsRborn@aol.com), May 01, 2003.

Jason-

Read those verses carefully. I don't think that God does the work for us, but rather, through us, as we do such works. Protestants believe that the works come by inspiration in order to reflect one's faith. But, the Calvinist doctrine is over simplified in that works mean absolutely nothing. At least, this is what I've gathered from all of my discussions and studies (probably over simplified as well).

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 01, 2003.

Dear Jason,

Yes, I am a Catholic. I am an ordained deacon of the Catholic Church.

The sin of Adam did cripple the human race spiritually, but it did not make Adam "spiritually dead". Otherwise, neither he nor his descendents would be capable of any moral good. However, in Deuteronomy 30:19, we read "I call heaven and earth to witness today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants." So, even before the Savior came into the world, men still retained their ability to choose good vs. evil. That's what free will is - the ability to make moral decisions. So, to say "we do have a "will" to choose things, but they will always be bad things" is a contradiction in itself. The capacity to choose ONLY bad things would be no choice at all. But free will, the ability to choose moral right vs. moral wrong, is an inherent trait of human beings, one of the characteristics which defines a human being, which we cannot ever lose, or we would cease to be human.

Once the Savior came into the world, the damage done by Adam and Eve was partially undone, and we were reconciled with our God. We still suffer some of the effects of Original Sin, in the form of concupiscence, our tendency to be drawn to evil. But we also have the power of the Holy Spirit who gives us guidance and spiritual strength to resist temptation, and thus enhances our free will, even while leaving it totally free. Thus, we read, "Their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed only in Christ. To this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. (2 Corinthians 3:14-16).

Thus our eyes are opened and we can grasp spiritual reality, including moral reality, far more fully than those under the Old Covenant could do, though still not as fully as Adam and Eve did in their pre-fallen nature. "... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:9-10) Thus, Jesus can instruct us ... "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:48). Surely Jesus could not give such an instruction to people who were incapable of making right moral judgements. Many other verses indicate our responsibility to respond to God's grace by choosing good and living moral lives ...

"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven". (Matthew 5:16)

"Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share". (1 Timothy 6:18)

"He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him". (Ephesians 1:4)

"Like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)

1 Peter 3:11 "He must turn away from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it". (1 Pet 3:11)2 Corinthians 4:12

Therefore, all good that we do must be by our own free choice, IN RESPONSE to God's call. That is the key element. When scripture says "Our best works are filthy rags in his sight", it means just that - OUR best efforts, separate from God's plan. This is mere humanitarianism, and does not constitute works unto salvation. However, when James asks "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14), and "Are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?" (James 2:20), he is speaking of works chosen in response to God's call, which are an integral part of our necessary response to God's offer of salvation.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 01, 2003.

Dear Paul, thank you for your answer. You have helped me somewhat. Yes in James it's clearly shown how God says if one says he has faith but doen't procede in any works his faith is dead. When we do good works it shows we have faith. Yes, I also am a Catholic, a new one. And I find it very joyful too, but.... you failed to answer the verses I listed. Paul, John 6:37,39,44, Romans:3-11 and how God CLEARLY says "THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD" talking about the whole human race. Those are the verses which I have a real question with on election. Electionist say if it were free will, then it would be a 50/50% gospel plan where Christ has done his part, now it's up to us to choose him which is equally important in order to get saved and it all comes down to mankind wanting their own prideful credit for their salvation. I am not arguing against you Paul, but I am trying to understan if these "electionist" verses have anoither interpitation that harmonizes with the Catholic faith. Anyways, thanks.

-- Jason Baccaro (LegendsRborn@aol.com), May 02, 2003.

Ok, despite all the election verses, and I do hope someone will anwser me still. But can someone anwser me on BAPTISM soon too, hehe. And Paul, if you say Adam and Eve did not become "spiritualy dead", why does God say "In Adam, All have DIED"?

-- Jason Baccaro (LegendsRborn@aol.com), May 03, 2003.

this is other paul again... Adam and eve were not spiritually dead, they became dying. there is an important distinction between the two. from that point on, man has been fallen. youre right about the idea of works... and catholics worldwide agree with you. nobody is saved by works alone. just as faith without works is dead so works without the driving faith is useless as well. we are creatures of sin and our works can never balance against the sin and evil we cause in the world. thus our faith is what saves us. let me tell you a story: a man approached his teacher one day and asked "what is the path to salvation?"
the teacher responded "there are two things. first you must realize that nothing you can do can save you, you are a sinner and no amount of work can make up for that."
"yes," the man said "what is the second?"
"you must live as if you didnt know the first." we are saved by our faith alone, no man can do good such that we are saved. but God can do good works through man, and by doing the works of the Lord our faith is fulfilled and grows. forgive my ignorance of you baptism question, please repeat it for me...

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanemail.com), May 03, 2003.

Thanks paul, that story is a GREAT example and helps. What do you think about John 6:37,39,44, and Romans 3:11? And doesn't God say "in Adam ALL have died,(or died)? Wouldn't that say we are spiritualy dead until the Holy Spirit fills us and makes us new creatures? Could you please anwser? And for Baptism, please look at my original question at the top. I ask it after I ask about election in the same paragraph. Just do not feel like re writing it hehe, thanks.

-- Jason Baccaro (LegendsRborn@aol.com), May 03, 2003.

Jason

I may be able to help. I detect that you have realized a truth that totally bothers you. You may not like it and seek for possible errors or instead you are leaning more towards man instead of God and His Word for truth.

Keep in mind the whole human race especially myself deserves to go to Hell. One sin, that's all it takes, in God's eyes, we need to pay the price of eternall Hell. I do not deserve salvation, I do not know why he chose me. I am from a catholic family but for some reason the church is afraid to teach this truth. We have to turn to the Bible for truth. God tells us in

Romans 3:4" God forbid *: yea, let God be true, but EVERY MAN A LIAR; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. "

You noticed he said "every man" and God did not list any exceptions such as preists or pastors. You see we have sin tainted minds and the moment we hear, "God chose who He wanted to save", our filthy pride tells us that God is unfaithful for doing this. God says He does whatever pleases Him and we should not question that. Just accept it! God tries to humble us. If you continue to ignore the truth, then God will harden your heart and put a deception in you and you will begin to believe a lie. Sometimes the truth hurts and if we do not like it, then it can kill us. In

Hebrews 4:12" For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and * * spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

I don't care how holy or what title somebody holds, If that idividual can't back up their answers with scripture then He may be a false prophet or if they ignore certain verses to suit their answers, watch out! Satin comes in sheep clothes. All I am saying is Don't put your trust in any man unless he backs up his reasonings through scriptures. There are people who hang their whole doctrine on one verse and ignore the rest of the scriptures that contradict their conclusion. The sad thing is an individual may think he or she is saved but still are spiritually dead. There is no way of reasoning with them.

The Bible does teach election and if you are not sure if you are saved then you continue to read the Bible and Beseeach the Lord. The moment you feel that there is one tiny bit of work you can do to get yourself saved, then you are in rebelion towards God because God says there is nothing we can do to get ourselves saved. You see the only reason one does repent to God(not man) is because God first saves that individual (if he was chosen) then that individual repents. As he grows in santification, then he realizes, WOW! "no wonder I have this intense desire to do God's will!". You must give God all the glory because He did this supernatural action that we can't possibly do. Remember only His sheep will hear his Shepard!

Be patient, if you are not satisfied with this truth, by all means Seek council from man. I am getting this information from the Bible, and you quoted many verses that harmonize nicely to prove it. If anybody ignores the verses you gave, then the truth is not in them!

One last comment. When you feel like you have truth, then your conclusion will continue to harmonize with the rest of the Bible. Once we come accross a verse that conflicts, then we must hummbly continue to search the scriptures, and the Holy Spirit will guide you. We must tremmble before the Word of God and carefully compare scripture with scripture. If we are not carefull then we will make a mockery out of God's Word and then it becomes a free for all.

I don't belong to any Church because all Churches are afraid to face scriptures that contradicts their doctrines. This is the PRIDE of their hearts. Forgive me for sounding judgemental but I Love the LORD and I take my Embassodorship very serious.

Sometimes when somebody is teaching ugly things, we may want to pay close attention to see if their is any truth. Who wants to hear about the wrath of God? Nobody, but God commands us to teach it. When you teach about God's wrath, then you will begin to see the Love of God because Christ had to step down from His Glory to become a filthy human and take the curse and eternal punishment for His Elect: just so He can take some back to His Kingdom. He didn't have to that, but He did! Why? Because He is God and He wants to be Glorifyed, and only the true believers will reconize this and they praise Him day and night for God's Grace in saving them! We do not know how he chose the Elect, but they weren't any better than you or me or a pastor. God told us we were all filthy sinners, murders, adultorers, fornicators etc. before we were saved!

Peace.....

-- Paolo (vze3ffrz@verizon.net), May 04, 2003.

Paolo, you are breaking this forum's rules by continually coming here and bashing the Catholic Church.
This is a CATHOLIC forum. The rules allow you to ask respectful questions and to offer polite disagreement with what we believe.
But you constantly violate these permissions by posting long messages that try to teach ideas that we consider false and even spiritually dangerous.
Please abide by the rules or go to a Protestant forum. Your present kind of anti-Catholic trash is not welcome here.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), May 05, 2003.

Paolo, thanks for your comment, but I have heard what you said a thousand times over. Also I very VERY much used to believe in election. At first when I became a Christian I started going to a church called The Christian Missoinary Alliance Church. It was a good one I thought and still do. It taught free will and I pray for all my dear friends who are still going there. Anyways, then I began to listen to a cretain radio station and became hooked on it. Day and night I would listen. I learned a great deal on election, spiritualizing scripture, etc. I believed and loved the idea of election so much and I totaly despised free will. I still continued to go to my church but became uninterested in alot of things being taught. Some time later I met a woman who is now my Fiance and she's also a Catholic. Ever since I became a christian at age 20, I despised and pretty much hated what the Catholic Church taught, but.... I did not even know or understand what they thought. I thought it was a works salvation, idolotrous, re-crucifying Christ, etc, church. But I WAS WAY WRONG. I just heard what OTHER NON CATHOLICS WOULD SAY OR CATHOLICS WHO DID NOT EVEN CARE ABOUT OR UNDERSTAND THEIR FAITH BUT ONLY WENT BECAUSE IT WAS A SUNDAY THING. My Fiance believed quite different. She had and has such a strong PERSONAL relationship with God. So, I began to do a study on Catholosism and as soon as I began I believe I saw real truth for the first time. I believe in all christian churches there is truth, but the Catholic Church for me as I see it in SCRIPTURE has a great deal of truth. And that's just it, EVERY DOCTRINE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES IS RIGHT FROM THE BIBLE. Praise the LORD. I know very much well SO MANY VERSES that seem to teach election, but there are also so many verses that seem to teach free will. I'm still studying for what I firmy believe as how I see it in scripture. I've noticed many verses that just seem that they CAN NOT harmonize with election. But whatever the case is, whether it's election or free will, salvation is ENTIRELY GOD's beautiful gift. And Paolo, do you listen to family radio because you say you do not attend church anymore. Well, that's what Mr. So-and-So teaches on that radio station. He already predicted Christ coming in 1994 and Christ did not come, and now I hear he says the worlds unchristian people can help the needy, but a true believing christain should mostly only supply money for the gospel. I believe what he teaches is dangerous now. It seems more like a cult now as well. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits (which are acts of DEEDS, along with the gospel), but I pray that God will bless him along with everyone. Anyways, can someone please please please answer me finaly on baptism, hehe thanks.

-- Jason Baccaro (LegendsRborn@aol.com), May 05, 2003.

God Bless All

John I haven't been responding lately and I have been reading some of the Q's and A's. I am one who Loves the Lord with all His heart. The last thing I want to do is start trouble. Why do you keep trying to turn away people who is seeking or sharing knowledge. You tell me to go to a Protesant forum! Why? I do not know what distiquishes all the different types of churches and denominations! And because they have all different teachings I want no part because the Bible Gives me all the answers with the help of God.

In my whole life I was in the Catholic faith. Now I do not give myself a title. I am just a child of God. I have an intense Love in the Scriptures. If I am teaching in a fashion like other denominations then it can't be because a church taught me this. This is the way the Spirit guides me to truth. Many things I say come from scriptures, so why are you afraid to face them? I know many of them aren't pleasant but these are God's words not mine. Doesn't the Bible teach us to compare scripture with scripture?

I am not perfect, maybe I shouldn't accuse anybody or a church but why is it that when Jason or myself give you scriptures that contradict what you teach, you flip out and ignore the verses. Don't you fear God? Teach me then, what did I say wrong? If I write too much then forgive me for giving ample information to back up what I say.

Jason I would love to have the information on "Family radio", perhaps this is why God led me to this forum. The ministry you spoke about seems of like mind. When you get a chance read the Book of Jeremiah and see how God's wrath was upon Isreal because of their disobedience and not obeying God's Word. God doesn't change Bro! He gives us a lot of examples to teach us future events. If you ask me I believe acient Isreal is a picture of All the churches today. And the Bible does speak about Satin ruling in the churches.

You can ignore the scriptures and look for the ones that suit you, but you are only fooling yourself. Let me stop writing before I I use up too much room.

Peace be with you all....

-- Paolo (vze3ffrz@verizon.net), May 05, 2003.

The truth of Christ resides in the Catholic Church in spite of its humanity.

I believe it was Jesus who left His Church primarily in the care of a man who denied him in public. Some friend huh? Still, Peter was asked to tend to his sheep? That choice is something that shows me where Jesus wants me to try to be.

I know that seems difficult to accept with the information about the Catholic Church which is everywhere. But it is. One day, Paolo if your journey is led by the Holy Spirit. He will lead you back home.

I cannot give you a scholarly answer and my own difficulties with the Church are huge stumbling blocks for me. My own pride obscures my vision. But home is the Catholic Church my friend. In all her diversity and unity and humanity.

Karl

-- Karl (PArkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 05, 2003.

Paolo, you say mankind wants to hear what they only want to hear? Well, that is correct. But by the way your suggesting it is that if someone does not believe in what you believe or in anycase "election" then they are just denying the belief of it because it suits them not. Well if you read what I said correctly I did used to believe in election AND LOVED it very dearly. I hated any idea of free will. But praying to God for truth many many times and trying to keep my pride down I humbly have been studying and I'm findind a great deal that contadicts election. Hell is a doctrine I do not like. Yes I said I DO NOT LIKE THE IDEA OF HELL BUT IT MUST BE PREACHED AS MUCH AS GOD's LOVE. People such as Jehova's Wittneses, The Mormons, Seventh Day Adventist, etc, reject beause they say it's too harsh and cruel. Well I do FIRMLY believe in ETERNAL HELL because I see it in scripture and I do not like it but I believe all of mankind and especialy myself deserve it and it must be taught and PRAISE GOD for coming to save mankind for ALL WHO BELIEVE ON HIM. Jesus says if your hand keeps causing you to sin, cut it off, well, no I do not take that literely. Perhaps there could be some christian fanatic that would and amputate his arm to keep him from stealing. But I am not going to cut off my arm because I do not believe Jesus was saying that and I do not like the idea of doing that. I interpret that to mean do whatever is nessessary to keep yourself from sinning. Jesus also says if someone takes your shirt, give him your jaket. Well if someone walked over and took a shirt of mine for their own, I would defenitly NOT give them my jaket. Or if someone took my gutair or dog I would not just let them keep it. I believe Jesus is saying do not be so fanaticly materialistic about physical things. So, am I choosing not to take verses (and there are many more examples) like that literely because I do not like it. Well, if I say no I would be a liar. In your belief in Christianity you have to be careful and pray to let the Holy Spirit lead you to truth because there are many dangerous "christian cults or just fanatic religous people out there, (Waco Texas, or false messiah's) that lead to disaster. And yes you do have to interpret scripture with scripture for truth and ANY truth we believe comes directly from God as he says in John 6. I used to not classify myself as any denomination too. I would say i'm a Christian or a child of God. Recently I have been saying i'm a Christain Catholic because I believe most doctrines the Catholic Church teaches. And yes I have read Jeremiah, and have heard and studied how it's a "picture of the end of the church age. After spiritualizing just about every peice of scripture a certain individual mine as well say the whole Bible is about the end of the church age, but that is something I do not believe. But I do believe Satan was bound at the cross and is now loosed corrupting churches with signs and wonders abnd may the LORD come quickly to put a stop to that. But may he bless us all with his love and great gift of salvation. God bless all.

-- Jason Baccaro (LegendsRborn@aol.com), May 05, 2003.

Thanks all and God Bless!

Jason when you get a chance may I have that information on Family Radio, I would like to search it out. Thanks for your time.

P.s. the main point to my responses was just for all of you to check out some scriptures that you may have over looked. I don't trust my humanly thinking this is why I was relying on the scriptures to be checked out because to me they seemed to contradict some of the teachings that all.

Peace...

-- Paolo (vze3ffrz@verizon.net), May 05, 2003.

Jmj

Hello, Jason.
When writing a message in the "Answer:" box, please frequently break your words into paragraphs by hitting your "Enter" key twice.

My eyes are weak and always getting older, so I have a great deal of trouble reading a moderate-to-long message that is one big block of letters and numbers. Thanks.

Paolo, you wrote: "the main point to my responses was just for all of you to check out some scriptures that you may have over looked. I don't trust my humanly thinking this is why I was relying on the scriptures to be checked out because to me they seemed to contradict some of the teachings that all."

Please, Paolo, stop telling us to focus every bit of our attention on the scriptures. Although they are the written Word of God, we need more than the scriptures.

You are right in saying that we should not "trust [our] humanly thinking." That is precisely why you cannot rely on the Bible "alone," because it never really stands "alone." Whenever you read it, you are adding to its words your own private interpretation of those words! The problem is that your private interpretation is terribly fallible -- prone to error. Therefore, come back to the Catholic Church, which is the only teacher we can all depend on to give us the proper interpretation of Scripture.

Read the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" to learn the truth about God, man, and salvation. Then return to the Bible, and you will understand the words far better than ever before in your life.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.