Who thinks it is wrong for an Agnostic to be together ? Who made us believe that God Just Exists.. ?

Agnosticism is a concept, not a religion. It is a belief related to the existence or non-existence of God.

An agnostic is a person who feels that God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved, on the basis of current evidence. Agnostics note that some theologians and philosophers have tried to to prove, for millennia, that God exists. Others have attempted to prove that God does not exist. Neither side has convincingly succeeded at their task.

-- Renee C. (drenee@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003

Answers

Not me, Renee. I have talked to him. The first time was on July 23, 2000.

By the way, renee, I am a math teacher. The person least likely to believe in these things.

I have had many revelations since 1986 that serve as a guide that what I say is true. If the future doesn't exist, neither does God.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 06, 2003.

Dear renee,

Even though there are very convincing rational grounds for the necessity of God, when all is finally said and done, it is not for human beings to prove the existence of God. It is for God Himself to reveal His existence to human beings. He has "convincingly succeeded at this task", to the point where millions have willingly, even joyfully gone to their deaths rather than deny what they know to be the factual truth.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 06, 2003.

"it is not for human beings to prove the existence of God."

Why Not? Why does it have to JUST BE ? Who is GOD ? and why did he create us ? are we just a Game to him ?

My husband is a catholic ( by convenience ) and I am agnostic and we have discussions all the time.. Its not that I dont believe in Jesus.. I do.. There is Scientific proof that he walked the earth.. But His Father.. I am just having a really hard time believeing that this Super Being just existed.

But I guess that really is my issue.. :)

-- Renee C. (drenee@hotmai.com), May 06, 2003.

Renee

How are you?

From your question Who thinks it is wrong for an Agnostic to be together? and My husband is a catholic ( by convenience ) and I am agnostic and we have discussions all the time..

I guess you mean "Who thinks it is wrong for a Catholic and Agnostic to marry?"

There is danger in it. When the Hebrews married outside their faith they got in trouble. Usually they left God's ways. It is especially dangerous if a Catholic man marries a non-Catholic woman. There is a higher chance of divorce in that situation than if the woman is Catholic and the man is non-Catholic. Perhaps this has something to do with how a woman is the heart of a family. The woman carries the Hebrew blood line for Jews. To be a Jew your mother needs to be a Jew (I am fairly sure). If your husband valued his Catholic faith more he would have sought a Catholic wife. So since he may be (I am not for sure) somewhat weak in his Catholic faith, you ought to be sensitive to that, as perhaps you are and are coming here for help.

You say you are agnostic. I have a source for you to read that comes from no particular religion. It is a great, easy to read chapter, written by recovered alcoholics. It is chapter four in Alcoholics Anonymous In its meeting preamble, AA says this: A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

My point in that quote is to show that they may be more at your level of interest. It is not a specific religious movement.

Try reading Chapter Four, called We Agnostics Many people who read it can relate to it. Here is the link to it:

http://www.healingresource.org/book.cgi?Page_44

hope it helps

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 06, 2003.

Oh My.. Its amazing.. Sounds like you be saying that a Catholic must marry a Catholic.. OKay.. This is the law ( NOT ).. Just like Whites needs to marry Whites and Blacks needs to marry Blacks.. etc. WHATEVER.

Its is not 1920 any more.. The Catholic Faith is not the only FAITH out there.. And it sure is NOT the superior Faith. Its the joys of having thoughts and opinions.. My husband loves the fact that I am who I am .. Because I make him actually learn more about his faith.. But with most Catholics or any religion when you ask why do you do that.. Most will say.." you know I dont know .. it's just something that we do. "

He is not weak in faith.. I have yet in my life seen a TRUE Fully faithful living by the bible Catholic. So I would say 80 % of the "Catholics" in this world is weak to there faith.

I truly dont understand why it would "dangerous" for those who are of different faiths to be together. Makes no sense.. I think it make more sense for people of different faiths to be together.. Reason: to be able to teach and gain more knowledge of where the come from and who they come from ..

-- Renee C. (drenee@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

Marriage should be based on truth. So should faith. Unshakable faith in something that is not true is certainly of questionable value. The value of faith lies in the genuineness of what you believe in, not merely in the tenacity with which you cling to your beliefs.

Truth is not race-specific. People of all colors and nationalities can possess the fullness of truth. And people of all colors and nationalities can and do accept partial truth as the basis for their faith. Therefore your attempted analogy between races and churches has no logical basis whatsoever. Thankfully, some measure of ignorance concerning racial matters has been dispelled since 1920. However, genuine Christian doctrinal truth is still exactly the same as it was in 1920 - and 1820 - and 1420 - and 420. It is true that the Catholic faith is not the only Christian faith - and that fact in itself represents an outright rejection of the words of Jesus - "Father, that they all may be ONE". In fact, the Church Jesus founded does possess the "superior" faith, because it possesses the fullness of truth, and fullness of truth is inherently superior to partial truth, because partial truth means a mixture of truth and untruth.

You may not understand the problems and dangers inherent in marrying an unbeliever - dangers not just to the faith of the believer, but also to the marriage. But God does understand such situations, which is why His Word tells us "Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?" (2 Corinthians 6:14)

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 06, 2003.

Hi Renee,

It is hard for us to conceive of God always existing and never having a beginning because our frame of reference limits our perceptions. I think about how hard it must be for my son's gold fish to understand that's there's more to the world than just the fishbowl he dwells in.

And while God considered those who can believe without having to see "proof" to be blessed, He also doesn't shy away from those who would like to believe if provided enough evidence (e.g., doubting Thomas, one of Jesus's apostles). So I personally think that if you will ask God to show Himself to you, that he will. Just ask Him out loud (what we call prayer) and then set your heart and mind to be open to the possibility that He exists, just as we claim. Then set about to do some research and thinking . . . much as you appear to have started by posting on this forum :-)

There's lots of material out there that discusses this subject. The book "Show Me God" by Fred Heeren is a wonderful start for someone like you. He also was an agnostic (or was he atheist?) who researched God out of his own curiosity as a scientist and wound-up becoming a Christian.

Consider, first, the life of Jesus. Read the gospel of John and think about what Jesus said and did. If he did everything that's written and more, including being raised from the dead, then he must be the Son of God as he claims. On the other hand, it could just be stories (if I think about it from your point of view). Why should you believe the Bible? Well, consider those who followed Jesus. Read the book of Acts and see what they did and what was done to them. Peter and the others who lived with Jesus every day witnessed everything and recorded it in the scriptures. If it was a pack of lies, then they were an odd lot indeed, because they suffered an awful lot to defend and teach lies. They even were cruelly killed for their faith - surely they wouldn't have done that if it weren't true.

Your search for evidence might need to include kinds of evidence you've not considered before. Consider the complexity of creation and all of the intricacies of macro and microbiology . . . how can one view creation and not realize their is a Creator? That was the conclusion of such minds as Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawkins. Both have acknowledged that the more they understand of the universe, the more they realize it could not possibly have come into existence by mere chance, that it must be the product of a superintelligence.

I'd toss this extra challenge your way in case you'd like to try it. In addition to pursuing God from an evidence-based approach, would you be open to trying a few spiritual exercises as well? Hey, it can't hurt right? If He doesn't doesn't exist, then you've lost nothing for trying. OK, so here it goes, God desires to reveal Himself to you . . . He wants you to know that He exists and loves you. So start talking to Him about your doubts and concerns. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you inside where you can sense Him even if you external senses can't. Tell Him about your frustrations, just dump on Him, He understands and is more than willing to meet you half way. Ask Him to help you to believe . . . you have to be brave to try it, but again, it can't hurt eh?

Let us know what happens.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), May 06, 2003.

Well.. I respect your thoughts.. They are yours.. I love the fact that the more I read these threads the more I understand that there is alot of very Judgemental people here. And I really am learning more and more that If you are not "Catholic" and follow the LAWS of the Church.. Then We will be damned. And frankly.. I am not going to worry about my life after death.. I am only going to worry about my life on earth.. Be the best person I can be now. I like to think that I am loving, caring, non judgemental, honest person. I help when I can help..

I have been married now for 12 years. Very happily married. There has been danger in it. He believes in forever and so do I..

-- Renee C. (drenee@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

David " So I personally think that if you will ask God to show Himself to you, that he will. Just ask Him out loud (what we call prayer) and then set your heart and mind to be open to the possibility that He exists, just as we claim. "

--- HAHAH . sorry dont mean to laugh.. Do you think I am stupid and dont know what a Prayer is?? Never ASSUME.. Just because I dont have the same beliefs as you.. it does not mean I was not taught.. Growing up I went to church, bible school, sunday school.. I do go to church with my husband..

-- Renee C. (drenee@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

I have been married now for 12 years. Very happily married. There has been danger in it. He believes in forever and so do I..

OOPS>. Correction.. " There has been NO danger in it. "

-- Renee C. (drene@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

We can easily see that the Catholic Renee took for her husband isn't prepared to defend his faith. She is apparently able to disarm him as far as religion is concerned. Otherwise, his example and his guidance might lead her to belief in God.

God converts us; but we can resist conversion if we try. --Renee seems to be a resister; yet enters our forum guided by an unknown hand. Here she could find all that her Catholic spouse isn't prepared to teach her, because his own faith needs uplifting.

Paul and Mike are inspiring; and my own words to Renee would be, ''See to your own well-being; think of yourself. Later on you can assume a life of spirituality and faith. First ask up front; ''What's in it for me?'' --''Why should I care about a God I can't even prove exists?''

Being human, and having an interior self, (I think, therefore I am,) it should immediately attract you to Him, and to look for Him, when you are informed ''God will give Renee eternal life if she seeks Him & believes in Him''.

If you had no soul, no ''ME, Renee-- '' the concept of a never-ending life in future wouldn't have impact or interest for you. But, consider that every man can trace his existence back in memory to that first conscious knowledge of his own soul. Your soul recalls the cradle, practically. Nothing previous, however. Despite the testimony of your eyes.

Now, however we might try, we can't possibly imagine a future time, after death, without this living consciousness. Our soul can't contemplate a non-existent state. It won't take form in your mind. Dead body, yes-- but the soul very obviously is eternal, and that concept is NOT hard to see, even for an agnostic. He is designed for eternity. He is made in the image of his Creator, that's the reason.

Did He say we will live eternally if we believe in Him? He surely did, Renee. You are offered a choice, live eternally; or die. Only God can make that stick. You ought to begin contemplating; is it possible to live eternally? That's the crossroads you are entering now, Renee.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 06, 2003.

Renee,

You say that you're not going to worry about live after death. How can one have a life after death without something eternal, without God?

No one her is judging you for we believe that only God can judge you. You are promoting a concept that an educated Catholic simply cannot accept as true. You may take whatever is said here as judgements against you, but they're not. There is a difference between educating you on what we hold to be true and judging you. In fact based on what you have said so far, it sounds like you came here to judge us, to prove to yourself that Catholicism is intolerant and therefore wrong. Is it so wrong to be intolerant of what we believe to be false? In order to be truly tolerant, you must tolerate everything...would you tolerate murder? theft? I don't think anyone would.

If you are looking for us to prove to you that God exists, we simply can't. Only He can reveal Himself to you. Personally, I have not always been Christian much less Catholic. If you are truly interested in why I believe that God exists, then I would be happy to email my story to you.

In the end, when God reveals himself, we all have the choice to accept or reject Him.

I'll be sure to keep you in my prayers.

-- Nikki (mssnicole1@netscape.net), May 06, 2003.

That's exactly right Renee, I never assume anything. You may have grown up in a gogless home with no exposure to prayer. Other people are raised in homes in which prayer is only recited or is somehow mysterious. I was just putting in simiple terms for someone who appeared ignorant of Christian ways . . . based on your first few posts. Now I see that you are in a different boat, you're not ignorant of God, you've rejected Him. That's all-together different and sadder.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), May 06, 2003.

I myself could never even date someone who wasn't Catholic. Why? Because it is something that it such a deep part of me that I couldn't even see myself in a relationship (dating) with someone who doesn't have those same beliefs.

-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 06, 2003.

Hey Renee Ive posted a few thoughts from John Paull II on some of the issues youve raised on another thread. I hope you print them off and read over them. Some of it is a bit tough going but please ask any questions youre not sure on as there are plenty of people who will try and clarrify what the Pope is saying. Piece by piece it will all fall together if you appproach it with an open heart and mind.

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

Thank you everyone for your posts.. Look first off I have to say.. that I am saying that I am not judging you for loving and having God in your life. More power to you. All I am saying that we all have views.. And no ones views are right or wrong.. They are just views.. Look I just cant say if I can confirm or deny if he exists.. I am just clearly asking WHY? Why is that it just has to be.. Why can't we question what we believe and why we believe it.. We question alot of things in our lives spiritually, mentally, and physically.. SO why cant we just stop and ask.. WHY do I believe this.. Is just becuase it was something that was taught to me? Why was it taught to me? and do I believe because it is in my heart to believe or I just do Because I must follow the masses to believe?

That is all..

And someone here stated that all you are trying to do is to " teach me the truth " well how do we honestly know what the truth is ? And please do not qoute me anything from the Bible.. Just answer from your heart and soul if you must answer..

Thank you

-- Renee C. (drenee@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

Dear Renee,

Yes, every person does have views and opinions, and opinions are not right or wrong. Where opinions are concerned, it is true that "what is right for you may not be right for me". However, we also have facts, objective truths, and it is extremely important to be able to distinguish fact from opinion. If I say yellow is the prettiest color, and you say no, it's blue, then we have different opinions, but no-one is objectively right or wrong. But if one of us says that Washington was the first president of the USA, and the other says Lincoln was, then anyone listening to us, even if he doesn't know the right answer, immediately knows that at least one of us is WRONG, because what we are discussing is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact. It is a common error to treat religious doctrinal truths and moral truths as matters of opinion. They are not. They are facts, revealed directly to mankind by God. Therefore, yes, it is possible to know the truth regarding God's basic plan for mankind, His instructions for how we are to live our earthly lives, and the essential facts of our eternal existence after death. If it were not possible to know such essential facts about ourselves, human life would be not only subjectively meaningless, but objectively inexplicable.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 07, 2003.

Renee,

I would like you to think about something. In every civilization and culture there is the eternal. Every society that has ever existed has held that there are certain fundamental laws which cannot be broken. I have already mentioned murder and theft as two of them. Furthermore, every religion holds to certain principles such as forgiveness. To deny that there is a such thing as truth would be to deny that these eternal beliefs are false.

The question is who instituted these beliefs? Man or God?

Throughout history we have seen the rise and fall of civilizations and of ideas, but there are certain ideas that remain unchanged in human history. Everything that man has ever built has fallen or will eventually fall. If man is capable of creating the eternal then why do certain ideas fade?

I don't want you to be offended by this quote, but it does make a point. "One thing most ex-Communists could agree upon: they broke because they wanted to be free. They do not all mean the same thng by 'free.' Freedom is a need of the soul, and nothing else. It is in striving toward God that the soul strives continually after freedom. God alone is the inciter and guarantor of freedom. He is the only guarantor. External freedom is only an aspect of interior freedom. [...] its view of God, its knowledge of God, its experience of God, is what alone gives character to a society or a nation, and meaning to its destiny. Its cluture, the voice of this character, is merely that view, knowledge, experience, of God, fixed by its most intense spirits in terms intelligible to the mass of men. There has never been a society of nation without God. But history is cluttered with the wreckage of nations that became indifferent to God and died." - Whittaker Chambers, "A Letter to My Children" from Witness.

Doestoevsky believed that the problem of man without God is not that he'll believe nothing, it's that he'll believe anything. In believing anything, a man ceases to practice the eternal truths we cling to and he truly becomes a beast.

A world without God is not a world that I want to live in. He has to exist simiply because the eternal exists despite the fact that this body will eventually die. Man has never created anything that has not eventually died. The eternal must come from something higher than us, something better.

To the question that has plagued humanity from the beginning: Man or God?, the answer must be God. The decline of any civilization has always began with a denial of God. I guess He didn't like that ;).

Here's another way to look at it:

As we learn more about our universe through science it becomes more evident that there must be a Creator. The universe, although it may seem quite chaotic at times, is really quite organized. How is it that something without a Creator can have scientific laws? Take a look at physics. If God isn't out there controlling what happens, then wouldn't it be just as likely that if I released a ball in mid- air that it would be just as likely to rise instead of fall or remain in place for that matter? In biology, how is it that we have such complicated cells? How can such a complex system form itself and work as flawlessly as our cells do? The only explanation is that there is something outside this world who created it. Someone who wants to deny God may claim that it was aliens or something, but that begs the question of where the aliens came from in the first place.

I would love to show more examples, but I'm out of time right now. I hope that this helps at least a little. I'll keep praying for you.

-- Nikki (mssnicole1@netscape.net), May 07, 2003.

:) I know I know.. Sometimes the Greatest Mysteries of the world are meant to be Unexplained and or Unexplainable.

But the greatest thing about this is KNOWLEDGE.. We all have the "choice" to discover the Truth or What we believe to be the Truth in our own way..

If there is only one Superior Being "God" then why in different cultures and different beliefs that there can be many different supeior beings.. Why do the Catholics Believe that their GOD is better then some other God ??

( now I am not trying to start a heated discussion.. just asking because I can )

-- Renee C. (drenee@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

Dear Renee,

The great diversity of beliefs about God that has developed in various cultures demonstrates two things. First, that an awareness of a greater authority and truth, and a desire to find it, is an intrinsic aspect of human nature. And secondly, that God, who exists outside of time and space, cannot be discovered by the efforts of mere creatures confined to time and space. That God is a necessary reality can be determined by men, but the identity of that God cannot be discovered by human efforts. The only way that could be known by human beings is if God Himself took the initiative to reveal Himself to men. He did so to the original human beings, but they rejected His will and cut themselves off from Him. He did so again, to the Jewish people, the chosen race through which the one who would re-establish the relationship rejected by the first humans would come into the world. And finally, God revealed Himself with greater fullness and clarity when He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, into the physical world in physical form, to mediate the re-establishment of that relationship. So, the reason that the truths of Christianity concerning God are valid is that God, not men, is the source of those truths. Men are the recipients.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 07, 2003.

Renee,

Nice to be able post again,

You mentioned earlier, Look first off I have to say.. that I am saying that I am not judging you for loving and having God in your life. More power to you. All I am saying that we all have views.. And no ones views are right or wrong..

Ironically, to use your words, that couple of sentences is itself "judgemental" or in another way, demands that it's "view is right". If I say that, any view is the correct view then I make a claim about what is correct and what is incorrect when saying that. So there is obvious error in the words, any view is the correct view. You would like us to conform to the notion that all religious views are equally valid depending on what the person wants. How can you make us conform to that idea when you say that we are not expected to conform to any particular idea?

I am just trying to get you to think more deeply about what you are claiming as your doctrine. The doctine of anti-doctrine is a doctrine. That also reminds me of this: "if I choose not to decide I still have made a choice."

You are just like us Catholics who have doctrine. Your doctrine today just isn't our doctrine. But I wish your doctrine was our doctrine because than you would be in our family!

Mike

-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 07, 2003.

"But I wish your doctrine was our doctrine because than you would be in our family! "

Well if that was true then this discussion would not be happening now would it..

If I was a Catholic and had the same beliefs, thoughts and what have it then I am part of your family.. But since I am not Then I am banned from the Family.. Ok I really Understand now..

Someone wrote: "I believe Jesus Christ taught us we are to love other people unconditionally, whether Christian or not. This dramatically affects the way we do evangelism. Love means full respect for the integrity and freedom of other human beings, including members of other religions. "

we can ever quit studying and learning from non-Christian religions and from loving, respecting, and enfolding adherents of those systems into the communities in which we live. The "truth" of any religion or philosophy ceases to be "true" the minute it is used in service of hate, exclusion, and parochialism.

-- Renee C. (drenee@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

BANNED from the family? On the contrary, you are lovingly invited into the family. It is you who reject the invitation, which is certainly your right, and which is no cause to love you less. But membership in God's Church is a matter of personal acceptance. Others can only offer. A person either accepts the offer and chooses to enter the Church, or bans themselves from it. There is no locked gate keeping you or anyone else out.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 07, 2003.

HAHAHHAHA .

Ok .. First off I do go to church every Sunday.. I have Faith in My Spiritual Leaders.. But those leaders my not necessarily be your GOD. That is my choice.

I just am finding it amazing that if someone just questions certain theories then they feel sorry for me and pray for me and hope that "GOD" will lay his hand on me and heal me..

And you make it sound like since I dont have the same beliefs then I am in the wrong.. and You MUST make it right and Teach me what YOU believe to be the truth..

-- I have a little story to tell.. When my husband and I started dating I went to church with him. we were sitting there and the service was 10 minutes into it.. A family came in late.. And you know what the man beside us said. His said .. "Damn they should have shut and locked the f***ing doors- never come late to church" I was completely stunned. Now that really does not sound like that is a very Faithful Catholic Man..

-- Renee C. (drenee@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

Dear renee,

Anyone who believes that their beliefs are true necessarily believes that opposing beliefs are false. If you don't think my beliefs are false, then you do not believe that your beliefs are true, for truth cannot conflict with truth, and my beliefs do conflict with yours. Of course it is possible for two untrue beliefs to conflict with each other, but it is not possible for two true beliefs to conflict. It seems though that your basic premise is "it's all a matter of opinion". If that were so, I would have to ask "why bother"?

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 07, 2003.

--------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone who believes that their beliefs are true necessarily believes that opposing beliefs are false. If you don't think my beliefs are false, then you do not believe that your beliefs are true, for truth cannot conflict with truth, and my beliefs do conflict with yours. --- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I guess that I have an open mind.. Because What you believe is True is True and what I believe to be True is True to me..

Look I have been enlightened about all this.. and I thank you for your thoughts and words..

The fact of the matter is that we were all created equal .. and created to have own beliefs. And no matter how we believe and who we believe in we are to be respectful to each other.

I personally believe there is more then One Spiritual Leader and which ever one we decide to put our faith and trust into is our right. But we must also keep an open heart and be willing to learn of other faiths, but to never wonder off the path of faith that we believe to be true..

Therefore .. what and you believe in is your Truth and what and who I believe in is my Truth..

Thank you for the wonderful conversation.. and the enlightenment that I have gained..

But I must leave now.. many other things to do..

-- Renee (drenee@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

dearest renee-- you probabably are not reading this anymore, but reading this entire forum propelled me to put my 2 cents in. first, i congratulate you and your husband's ability to sustain a relationship and have been able to surmount such, to me, a large difference in beliefs. For many, it would have been hard, but you two are still together. In a way, it's almost indication to the existence of GOd, b/c GOD= LOVE. From your question, it kind of suggests that your husband does not have strong spiritual foundation. What i mean by that is NOT that "gee, had he been a strong catholic, he would ever never married a non-catholic in the first place?", the reason i say that he is not a strong catholic, b.c you behold very negative perceptions of Catholics, i feel. I get this feeling of resentment coming from you. And rather defensive about your agnostic dogma. Where do you get this idea that it is "WRONG for an agnostic to be together" with a Catholic? It sounds like either he is giving you wrong ideas about Cathlicism, and propelling your antipathy towards Catholics. Second, perhaps you do feel like Catholics or other religions are exclusive, and therefore, view it being "judgemental". But why? I mean, if I viewed members of PETA to be overly and at times irrationaly concerned with animal welfare, and i take offense that the members of PETA view me as an "animal killer" because i wear fur , and i think "they are awful! just because i wear fur, i am BAD!" But i choose to wear fur, and i understand that fur can result in many inhuman practices to animals, therefore, i must accept PETA's response to me because they are anti-fur. (btw, this is all hypothetical). It appears you chose NOT to Catholic or Christian or Muslim, et cetera. It's differnet, if you wanted to join, and all religions rejected you. That's not the case. You declined the invitation, and now you are dissing us for believing in God, and also accusing us of indamnation towards you. Third and lastly, your question "who MADE us believe that God just exists?" Again, no forces or coerces anyone to believe in God. And i believe as others above implied- Faith in God is really a gift, however, our hearts and arms must be open in order to accept it. Some readily embrace it. Others have friends, family whom help them to unravel their crossed arms for this gift. And for a few, they tightly cross their arms, not wanting to embrace anyone but their ownself-- therefore, making it very hard for someone, whether it's your husband, or even GOD, to let go and free your arms and surrender. Renee-- the funny thing is that your situation parallels mine..but the other way around. I'm the catholic one, and he was an agnostic. i see many similiarites between you two. For some reason, he always gave me the impression that he felt bad for not believing what i believed. And i always reassured him that the door is open to everyone. And he did not want to walk through it. In the process, he try to make me feel bad for believing what i believed. Yes, you are right-- everyone is entitled to their "belief", but ultimately, you must realize there is one belief--> one truth. And truth is not relative. For us, we have accepted in the Truth. I only pray that in time, you would be willing to uncross your arms and embrace God. I think you would be a less resentful and less angrier person.

-- mary (mle@itsa.ucsf.edu), May 25, 2003.