How can the passages in 2 Maccabees refer to purgatory when it talks about praying for the dead, when those people to be prayed for were idolators, carrying idols to battle ? I thought purgatory removes only venial sins.

-- (pleasetellme@now.com), May 22, 2003

Answers

The point of this passage is not that the specific people they were praying for were necessarily in Purgatory. They might have been or might not have been, depending on their subjective guilt in carrying such pagan symbols, which no-one else could possibly determine. We are never certain of the immediate whereabouts of any person who dies. The point of the passage is that people of that time and culture believed in praying for the dead, and therefore accepted the reality of a place in the afterlife other than heaven and hell - a temporary place from which deceased people could be released into heaven.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 22, 2003.

What would be the point of praying for someone in Heaven? They have already reached the goal of eternal happiness. What would be the point of praying for the souls in Hell? They are doomed for eternity and so, prayers for them would be a waste of time.

Therefore, Paul is correct in saying people of that time "accepted the reality of a place in the afterlife other than heaven and hell - a temporary place from which deceased people could be released into heaven"; and so do we.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), May 23, 2003.

Purgatory not only removes existing venial sins on a soul but also removes the stain (temporal punishment due) of previously forgiven sins - both venial and mortal. The key to understanding the concept of Purgatory is to remember that all past sins (both mortal and venial) and venial sins present on the soul at time of death need to be purged or cleansed from the soul in order to gain entry into the Kingdom of Heaven “Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14); “but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.” (Rev 21:27).

Any stain remaining on the soul after death must be removed (temporal punishment) before the soul is admitted into the presence of God. Purgatory is a form of penance to remove the stain of past sin and existing venial sin. We can help ourselves and others who have passed on by doing penance here in this life or by spending time in Purgatory in the next. “He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view” (2 Maccabees 12:43); “Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.” (Rev. 8:3).

Here are some more passages from scripture that help better understand the concept of Purgatory and of the temporal punishment that is due and must be served in order to purge venial sin and the stain of any past forgiven sin:

An intermediate state of purification exists. We call it Purgatory - Mt 5:26; Lk 12:58-59 There are different degrees of expiation of sins, some are more serious than others - Lk 12:47-48 Souls of the faithful departed can be aided by prayer - 2Mac 12:45 Salvation is ours, but only through purification by fire - 1Cor 3:15 There exists a temporary agony after death which involves purification - 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26 Christ preached to spiritual beings not in this world. Who could this be if there were only Heaven and Hell? Souls in Heaven don't need preaching - they are saved. Souls in Hell don't need preaching - they are damned for eternity. There must be a third place where souls require preaching. These souls are referred to as "prisoners" and the implication is they one day will be freed. - 1 Pet 3:19 Nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Once temporal punishment is due for past sins committed, how then do we cleanse ourselves? - Rev 21:27 Sacrifice for the dead - 2 Mac 12:43-46 - Why sacrifice for the dead if there is only Heaven (those who are saved) or Hell (those who are damned for eternity with no hope of salvation).

There is a reality beyond the two realms of Heaven and Earth a place between or near - 2 Cor 5:10; Rev; 5: 2;3 Rev; 5:23; Phil 2:10; Matt 18: 23-25 Luke 23:42

No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come. - Mt 12:32 "Extra" suffering exists for other's sake to aid in their purification. - Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14

Hope this helps.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), May 23, 2003.

Regarding Purgatory - a personal concern of mine - Have you ever attended a wake where a priest or deacon or someone else leads a short prayer service, which usually includes a brief eulogy for the deceased? The typical line goes something like this ... "Anna was such a devout person, so generous, always friendly and kind, supportive of everyone, a model of Christian charity for all of us. We can rest assured that she is now in the presence of God, in perfect happiness." What? Is this a Catholic clergyman saying this? What happened to Purgatory? Let's face it, Anna was a sinner, no matter how friendly and charitable she was, and we have no way of knowing what her sins were. It is a real disservice to Anna to state, only days after her death, that she is in heaven. This amounts to saying "don't pray for Anna - she doesn't need it". Anna may very well be crying out "don't listen to him! Pray for me!". I know from experience that it is difficult to walk the line between saying something that will comfort the family of the deceased, yet remaining faithful to the fullness of truth for the sake of the deceased. The family wants to be assured that their loved one is saved. But the one who is deceased, saved, and undergoing final purification needs our prayers. It is all too easy to take the attitude that those in Purgatory will make it to heaven whether we pray for them or not. That is true, but not very loving. If I have a migraine, I know it will end whether I take medication or not - but I take medication in the hope it will end sooner. When I am asked to speak at a wake, I try to recall some positive aspects of the person's life, some good memories, etc., but I carefully avoid stating that the person is in heaven, or free of suffering, something I cannot possibly know. And I always end by invoking those present to keep the person's memory alive by remembering them in their prayers and Masses in the days, weeks, and years ahead. One other thought on the subject - if you know non-Catholics who have died, make a special point of praying for them - not because they are necessarily more likely to be in Purgatory - but because their own families and non-Catholic friends are not praying for them. Prayer for the deceased makes sense only to those who accept the truth of Purgatory.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 23, 2003.

Dear Paul,

Regarding the very final part of your post. I once read about Padre Pio, a personal favorite saint of mine, that he felt that his prayers for his long deceased grandfather were efficacious because God includes all time thus simultaneously today's prayers for yesterday's people occur in God in concert, not separated by time.

I found his perspective kind of nice.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 23, 2003.

Dear Karl,

Yes, the reality that God exists outside of time is, not surprisingly, a difficult one to think about, and an impossible one to actually understand, since the concept is totally foreign to human experience. But it provides the answers to many otherwise perplexing questions. For example, one might ask "what if the person I am praying for is already in heaven?". The standard answer to this is "your prayers are not wasted - God will apply them to another soul who needs them". While there is nothing essentially wrong with that answer, another valid answer, more difficult to grasp from a human, temporal perspective, is "if that person is already in heaven when you pray for them, your prayers may nevertheless have been instrumental in their being there, even though you offered those prayers after the fact from a temporal perspective - because God, Heaven, and Purgatory exist outside of time; therefore there is no such thing as "before" or "after" in that realm.

Another question that is explainable only in terms of the extratemporal nature of Heaven is "How can Mary, a human being who is not omniscient or omnipotent, hear and understand and "keep track of" millions of prayers being offered to her all at the same time? The answer of course is that where Mary is, there is no time, so the phrase "all at the same time" becomes meaningless. She simply hears our prayers - period - not "all at the same time", not "at different times", and not "one after another", for "before" and "after" are also meaningless in the absence of time.

And of course the big one is the question of predestination. Those who can think only temporally say "God knows who will be saved and who will be damned BEFORE it happens; therefore He must create a person with the intent that it will happen". But the concept "before" exists only in time, and God is outside of time. He does not know our moral choices "before" we make them, or our eternal destiny "before" we reach it, for "before" is a temporal concept. God simply sees every moment of time - period. Not "all at once" - because "all at once" means "at the same time", and that in itself is a temporal concept! God sees nothing before anything else, nothing after anything else, just all things and all times throughout all eternity. From eternity he has seen me being born, making every decision I have made or will make in my lifetime, including my death and final destination. But it is not correct to say He "foresees" such events, because "foresee" is a temporal concept, based on the idea of "before". While I am experiencing this very moment of time, which I never experienced before and will never experience again, God is not experiencing it - yet He is seeing and relating to every moment of time from the creation of the universe and time itself, until the inevitable end of both.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 23, 2003.

Paul,

You bring up a good point that I have heard before. It truly is a disservice for the minister or priest to tell the congregration that this person is in Heaven.

I once heard Mother Angelica (of EWTN) tell the viewers that when she dies, she definitely wants us to pray for her. She said to ignore anything that is said about her and assume she is in Purgatory. Coming from a holy lady like her, it made me stop and think how much time I have accrued for Purgation.

God Bless.

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), May 23, 2003.

Original message on this thread: "How can the passages in 2 Maccabees refer to purgatory when it talks about praying for the dead, when those people to be prayed for were idolators, carrying idols to battle?"

Actually, the New American Bible translation of 2 Mac 12 does not say that the men were idolaters, nor that they "carr[ied] idols." Rather the text says that they wore amulets.
An online dictionary says that an amulet is an "object worn, especially around the neck, as a charm against evil or injury."

It is not hard to picture some rough-hewn soldiers slipping into this kind of silly superstition, perhaps not even realizing that it was forbidden, and thus not committing deadly sin.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 23, 2003.