Why are Protestants and Catholics always against each other? To me it seems that the main beliefs are the same, the only differences are in the rituals and ceremonies and stuff. The worst example of this is Ireland. Whenever I read stories about the religious fighting it pisses me off. Shouldn't the two religions act like brothers with differing opinions rather than enemies? I wonder what Jesus would say about this if he came to earth today...

-- randir14 (randir14@yahoo.com), June 17, 2003

Answers

Well, it probably has something to with the fact that, for a Catholic, the most important thing in the world is being a Catholic, and for a Protestant, the most important thing in the world is not being a Catholic.

In any case, although you are right to want Protestantism and Catholicism not to be seperate, you seem unaware of the importance of the differences. Most Protestants reject sacramental community, magisterial authority, the veneration of Mary, saints and relics, and the substantial real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

If you think those aren't important, then you're probably a Protestant. Unity can never be found by ignoring differences. They must be confronted and discussed.

But again, you're right to say that we are brothers in Christ. Read Ut Unum Sint

-- Skoobouy (skoobouy@hotmail.com), June 17, 2003.

The reason some Protestants and Catholics don't get along is because they each claim there way is the right way. Some 'Protestants' do not have anything against Catholics, and want to join with each other. But others, Like myself, see it as being a traitor to join hands with a Catholic. It's wrong. It's not really that we have something against the Catholic people, Just there teachings. Their teachings are unbiblical (alot of them) and you'll see they isolate verses (thanks eugene for correcting me) and misuse scripture.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 17, 2003.

While it is true that all people should show respect for the dignity of other people, it is certainly NOT true that "the main beliefs are the same"! ALL Protestant sects have rejected essential beliefs of the Christian faith, some obviously more so than others. Virtually all of them have rejected the central act of worship of the Christian faith, the Mass, and specifically the Most Holy Eucharist, without which one "has no life within him", according to Jesus Himself. Virtually all Protestant sects have rejected the profound reality of the priesthood, without which they are cut off from the sacraments, the principle channels of grace Jesus provided for His Church. All such manmade sects reject the authority Christ placed in the Church, nowhere else, and specifically in the hands of His personal Vicar, the Pope. Without recognition of this God-given authority, there is no real authority at all, and without real authority there cannot be unity - as seen in the widespread and ongoing fragmentation of denominational religion. Without untiy, there cannot be truth, for truth divided into conflicting camps ceases to be truth. Yes, there is a certain brotherhood between all who sincerely try to follow Christ, and the True Church recognizes this relationship in referring to Protestants as "separated brethren". The Church does not refer to non-Christian religions as "brethren". But separated they are - not only from the Church Jesus Christ founded for them, but even from other manmade sects. And this separation is not based on "rituals and ceremonies", but on essential doctrinal truth.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 17, 2003.

Yes, we can't join together and ignore the differences. Now Paul and Eugene, tell me something that a Protestant does that is unbiblical, something that is idolatry, or that will surely send you on a path to hell. It seems that 'protestants' "attack" Catholics, and Catholics defend, but why not the other way around? I'd like to hear what you guys say.

-- D.O. (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 17, 2003.

You misunderstand John 6, there is no presence in the 'eucharist'. And where in the bible did it say we had to follow the pope? Peter was not the first pope, and don't have succesion from them. Preisthood? What do we need preists? No one can forgive our sins but Jehovah.

-- D.O (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 17, 2003.

I suspect "randir" here has set out the bait just to see who'll take it while he/she sits back to enjoy the frenzy.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), June 17, 2003.

I'll take the bait.

John 6: 52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Jesus said to them, I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

Matthew 26: 26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, Take and eat; this is my body. 27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14: 22 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, Take it; this is my body. 23 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it. 24 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many, he said to them.

Luke 22: And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me. 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

1 Cor. 11: 23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me. 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognising the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Hmmm. Sounds pretty straight forward to me. So, who really is misinterpreting it?

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), June 17, 2003.

Uh no I didnt create this topic as bait. This is just something I have been wondering about for awhile.

-- randir14 (randir14@yahoo.com), June 17, 2003.

Also I am not Protestant or Catholic. My family is Protestant but I have seen a few things that I considered to be bullcrap. Im sure every religion has their faults though. I just read the Bible and form my own beliefs.

-- randir14 (randir14@yahoo.com), June 17, 2003.

Dear randir,

Hate to break it to you, but "reading the Bible and forming my own beliefs" is what defines a Protestant. And as a result of using this faulty Protestant approach, you have no more authority behind your beliefs, and no more assurance that they are true, than any other Protestant has.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 17, 2003.

"I just read the Bible and form my own beliefs."

If this way worked, randir, then there wouldn't be 30+ thousand Protestant denoms. They all read the Bible and form their own beliefs. But unfortunatly they don't all come to the same conclusion. Therefore, it is quite evident that either only one interpretation is correct, or none are correct and has yet to be found.

Thus, it should be of great interest to you to find out the Truth. Otherwise your interpretation is merely that; one more "truth" (with a question mark after it).

Fortunate for Catholics, their beleifs were not based on the Bible. Actually the opposite is true! The Bibles writings were based on the beliefs of the Catholic Church!

Sounds weird but it's true. For nearly a half a millenium a complete Bible didn't exist, although the Church continued to thrive! In fact for at least 50 years after Christ there had yet to have been completed all the writings of the New Testament! At it's inseption the Church merely had the Old Testament Scriptures! Yet even those Scriptures were not read by the average Joe. They were kept with the Jewish Priests, who interpreted them for the community!

So you see, personal interpritation EVEN of the Old Testament was not a Biblical or historical practice until after the year 1500! This was when people made a stand against authority, and decided that their interpretation was just as good as any. Which of course isn't true. How can two opposing interpretations both be true! For instance, in John 6, either Christ was talking about really eating his flesh, or he was talking figuratively. Well, Catholic scholars and Protestant scholars will both use the exact same text to prove the exact opposite conclusion until they are blue in the face. Who's right? Your answer is only based on your OPINION of the facts, but not on the reality of them. Who knew? The Apostles knew! The Apostles also passed their knowledge on. If you read the early Church Fathers (like St. Justin, and those of the first couple centuries) it becomes clear that the Truth is that Christ was being literal!

Therefore, randir, you must not trust your own interpritation of the Bible. It is useless without correct assistance and formation - just like the Eunuch that Philip helped! My interpretation is futile also! I can read the Bible, sure! And I may even come up with the correct interp. on my own. But I cannot know for sure that it is right unless I have the blueprint to check it with. That blueprint is the Catechism of the Catholic Church in conjunction with the Holy Tradition of Christs Church. If these three elements (Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium), which combined are the Complete Word of God, do not coincide, the Christ Jesus was a liar. For it was Christ who established the Church. And it is the Church who is the Body of Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), June 17, 2003.

Yes, Jake. Paul's post is straightfoward, the Catholic point of view. You tell David only the truth, which he's not willing to accept. It only shows he has not been given the faith. He retreats from the Holy Spirit. He leans on the Book. Only the Bible. As if Christ had ever commanded us to read a bible!

Jesus is the Saviour of all mankind. God gave his only-begotten Son for the salvation of His people. God gave us His Holy Word, as well. Not by writing any book. By speaking through men whom He gave the grace of prophesy and teaching.

In Christ's New Covenant, the appointed men were his apostles. David Ortiz knows that. He also knows the Bible was sent by God to teach us the truth; as His apostles were to do. The Bible and Christ's holy apostles can't clash. They will never be at odds over a tenet of faith and/or morality. The apostles produced the books. In them was much of our store of revealed truth; But not everything. Look at the epilogue to John's gospel: ''There are many OTHER things that Jesus did; but if every one of these (truths) should be WRITTEN, not even the world itself, I think, could HOLD THE BOOKS THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE WRITTEN.''

John is saying, ''Don't expect the books to be altogether complete, or sufficient.'' Many good and holy books were written by Jesus' hundreds of followers. They are still good, and some are holy. But not inspired by God; just testimonies and traditions.

And there's Christ's Church. She is the mother we learn God's Holy Will from. She gives us not only the Bible itself, but daily guidance in living. Holy living; and in life and death her sacraments. These bring us God's grace.

Jesus gave all His own grace and merit; drawn down from His Father to HIM, dying on the cross; He made it a resource, entrusted to His Holy Church. His Church makes grace available to all believers, and grace is what saves them. Grace is in our sacramental life; and it inspires in us all the virtues, Faith Hope & Charity the greatest. Many others; and grace makes us always prayerful. Without prayer there is no pleasing God!

Many folks want to pray, but give in to laxness and lukewarm faith; we fall short. We turn then to Our Holy Mother in heaven; Mary the Blessed Virgin. We bring her our petitons and our hopes. She then PRAYS for me & you. As all the other saints do. Even the Angels! PRAYER is love at God's feet. The most holy of prayers is Mary's. We ask her to pray for us, every day. And we continue to pray to God, without fail. Only in our Holy Catholic Church!

Meanwhile, the non-Catholic is caught up in his worship of the Bible. He adores that Book! They seem to forget, God's Word is everlasting, but a book is created for us. It can't contain EVERYTHING God wants us to know. It only gives the bare essentials for the ordinary man or woman.

And, apart from His Church, the ordinary man and woman can't understand everything in the Bible. It's full of mysterious and deeply spiritual truths. We are given these truths without any possibility of error in only ONE place on earth: the Holy Catholic Church. From our birth till the day we die! We are even taught this in the Holy Bible! ''The Church of the living God, the pillar and mainstay of the truth.'' (1 Tim 3:14.)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 17, 2003.

randir,

In case you did not know, what you just described--"I just read the Bible and form my own beliefs"--is what most Christians in this world call Protestantism. :) In any case, it is good that you read the Bible; there is virtually nothing more valuable for you to do right now. Let it speak to you--it is the voice of the Lord, from the lips of his Church.

And I also suggest, for the sake of courage, that you not be satisfied to just have "your own beliefs". That is not faith, because faith needs community, and dies when it is alone. Please, read John chapter 4. That is our invitation to you. God bless.

-- Skoobouy (skoobouy@hotmail.com), June 17, 2003.

dear randir 14:-

"The worst example of this is Ireland."

Ireland is the best possible example of the perserverance of Catholic faith against evil, imperialist, divisive protestantism.

fyi, through the MODERN age of Irish terrorism, the Catholic Church has constantly railed aginst the violence. the reaction from the protestant churches has been mixed -- and some, such as the Ulster Presbyterians -- have welcomed armed conflict.

if you go back further into the origins of the conflict, you will see quite clearly that Henry VIII, wanting a divorce with all of the ramifications that a break with Rome caused, saw that he had to protect his left flank from these blessed devoted Irish. thus began "the Plantation".

this was pursued by many other "protestants", but with underneath it all fundamentally political designs -- such as Cromwell, or Henry VIII's daughter.

the current problems are very much not religious. the vast majority of "protestants" used protestantism as a badge that idenitifies their particular beand of hatred. most have never been near any church. those "Catholics" that engage these evil swine are disowned by the Catholic CHurch.

Ireland is a dispute bewteen the ungodly "protestants" -- and those poor Catholics that are tempted away from the true path by the Ulster version of the devil.

if this is your "worst" or "best" example, think again.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), June 17, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Randir.

You wrote: "I just read the Bible and form my own beliefs."
Since you say that you read the Bible, I can't help but be surprised to read your opening message, in which you wrote: "Why are Protestants and Catholics always against each other?"

Randir, you must have forgotten about the following New Testament statement, made by a Catholic bishop to another (St. Paul/St. Timothy) to warn his people about the heretics who would soon be on the scene -- and to warn future generations about the founders of non-Catholic denominations, who would begin to come along about 1,500 years later:

"2 Timothy 4:1-4 ... I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths."

Randir, the "truth" of which St. Paul wrote is found in every Catholic doctrine. The "myths" he mentioned are such things as heresies and erroneous non-Catholic doctrines. The "teachers" he mentioned have included folks like Arius, Luther, Calvin, Joseph Smith (of Mormonism), Jimmy Swaggart, Jack Chik, John Spong, and thousands of others.

Randir, since you must have read the above words of St. Paul to St. Timothy, you should not have been surprised that there are arguments among Catholics and non-Catholics.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 17, 2003.

D.O., you said, "Yes, we can't join together and ignore the differences. Now Paul and Eugene, tell me something that a Protestant does that is unbiblical, something that is idolatry, or that will surely send you on a path to hell. It seems that 'protestants' "attack" Catholics, and Catholics defend, but why not the other way around? I'd like to hear what you guys say. "

You are correct, I think, in your perception of Protestants attacking Catholics. It is rarely the other way around. I am amazed by the amount of bunk thrown our way on this forum. Sometimes I get so battle weary I could cry, but I guess it sharpens my wits, helps me concrete my beliefs, and SANCTIFIES me, if I can keep my cool AND LET GRACE ABOUND! But the reason SOME feel they must attack is simple: To justify being a "Protestant" you must have something to "Protest." They cannot legitimize their beliefs or their existence as a Protestant without tearing apart the object of which they PROTEST.

Protestantism, right now, even by their own accounts, are producing more heretics by the minute than at any other time in history. I have Protestant friends who are downright outraged at the slop on Christian television stations; deplorable heresies being broadcast around the world! The latest one being "If you're a Christian you are EQUAL WITH GOD! That's right brother! If you're not walking in health and wealth, it's simply because you don't realize your own divinity." That's the latest from Creflo Dollar, multi-billion dollar T.V. evangelist, and his cohort Kenneth Copeland, two of the biggest names in T.V. land. There are many many others too numerous to mention espousing ridiculous heresies.

It's sad; really, really sad, that millions and millions and millions of people around the world are buying their message. I know some good, God loving, Jesus believing evangelicals who are truly GRIEVED over this plight, but there is nothing much they can do! When they squawk about it, they get threatened. They pay the price big time for speaking up especially if they do so on a public forum like radio or television.

I love my Protestant bros and sisses. They are not ALL my enemies, just the ones who MAKE THEMSELVES SO by constant badgering, belittling, slandering, willful dishonesty. You can only take soo much!

Gotta go,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 17, 2003.

You know, I was a Protestant for 20 years, and NEVER got persecuted like I do now as a Catholic. Praise God, it's kinda cool, really.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 17, 2003.

1. After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias.
2. And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
3. And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.
4. And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
5. When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
6. And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.
7. Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little.
8. One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him,
9. There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?
10. And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
11. And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.
12. When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
13. Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
14. Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
15. When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
16. And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,
17. And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.
18. And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.
19. So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
20. But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.
21. Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
22. The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;>br? 23. (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)
24. When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
25. And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26. Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29. Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30. They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31. Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35. And Jesus said unto them, I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE: he that COMETH TO ME shall never hunger; and he that BELIEVETH ON ME shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which SEETH THE SON, AND BELIEVETH ON HIM, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41. The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43. Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48. I am that bread of life.
49. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are DEAD.
50. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61. When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62. What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68. Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71. He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
“What did Jesus mean by eat me?

Remember He told them that the work of God was to BELIEVE on Jesus.

To believe is to accept, internalize, and absorb which is what eating is--allowing an outside substance to come inside of you. But unlike physical bread which is eaten and cast out through the digestive system, the spiritual bread, the word of God, is eaten/internalized through belief and never cast out. It remains inside of us. In verse 58, Jesus explains that when we eat Him it is "NOT as your fathers did eat manna and are dead". It is not the same kind of eating. It is INTERNALIZING, ACCEPTING, BELIEVING HIM.

Jesus' flesh is food because His flesh was crucified on the cross to pay for our death penalty of hell and the lake of fire--this is eternal death. If we believe that this happened and confess Him we will not experience spiritual death. We will go to heaven--this is eternal life. Believing/internalizing/eating this fact gives us eternal life. We need physical bread to stay alive, we need belief in His sacrifice (spiritual bread) so we can live forever.

What about the blood? Jesus blood is drink because the shedding of blood is required to forgive our sins. The blood forgives our sins and washes them away forever so we can live with a Holy and Just God who NEVER sins and can't live with sin. Hebrews 9:22 says blood is required in order to get forgiveness of sins/remission,

“And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.”

Once again, if we accept Jesus, internalize Him, yea eat Him, we have ETERNAL LIFE. The people were talking about physical life, Jesus was talking about SPIRITUAL life. Remember, when asked what we have to do to do the works of God, Jesus said,

"He that BELIEVETH on me hath everlasting LIFE."

When we believe on Jesus Christ, He actually lives inside of us, never to be purged like physical bread like the eucharist which goes out in the dung! A Catholic who holds to the eucharist as being Jesus says that my God is in their feces! Ridiculous.

Because I believe, Jesus lives in me. “ - Tracy

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 17, 2003.

The reason they didn't walk away in disgust is because they understood him figuratively. Just like Jehovah Witnesses, you get a single verse, blow it out of proportion. Sure, if you just read that single verse, you'll get that idea. But you have to read the verses before and after it, then you'll get what it really means. The bible can be made to say anything if you isolate verses.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 17, 2003.

It is amazing how Catholics treat the bible. You talk to bible- believing Christians and tell them they are wrong for following the bible and not belonging to a organization, a Catholic denomination (Yes, you might think of it as a denomination, but others do: i.e. skeptics). You say your traditions, your authority is the way, and degrade the bible. But when it comes time to answer to the skeptics, now the bible alone is 'infallible'. Nothing can prove it wrong. Why the sudden change in stances? Because a skeptic won't believe you when you say "My church is the true church", "my religion has the truth" because so many others make the same claim. Without the bible, Catholicism is just another pagan religion. With it, it's a pagan religion mixed with Christianity. The way you speak of it, it's just another book. Anyone can change what some chapters mean, since all the places it talks about 'sola scripture' must mean about the chapter(i.e. Revelation) and not the book (Bible).

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 17, 2003.

Corrections "(you might not think of it as a denomination)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 17, 2003.

Well here it is in context. Read it and believe - or misinterpret your way out of it, if you can't believe ...

"He who EATS My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is TRUE food, and My blood is TRUE drink. He who EATS My flesh and DRINKS My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who EATS Me, he also will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who EATS this bread will live forever. These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father. As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. (John 6:54-66)

Note: ""This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" Does this sound like a group of people who thought Jesus was speaking symbolically? Why would it be so difficult to listen to a simple analogy?

Note the words of Jesus: "But there are some of you who do not believe". Believe what? That they were to eat His flesh and drink His blood - that's what. Nothing else He had said would be difficult to believe. And Jesus called them unbelievers because they did not accept His word on that essential point, because it was too "difficult" for their level of faith.

"As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore". Does this sound like people who thought He was simply making some sort of analogy about listening to His word? Pretty extreme reaction over a simple symbolic analogy, wouldn't you say?

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 17, 2003.

David is replying three to our one. Signs of worry.

Here is a lame text-proof rule: ''But you have to read the verses before and after it, then you'll get what it really means.''

''Get'', David? If God speaks ''with forked tongue'', sure. You should never believe what any verse says. He might be tricking you; is that your wisdom???

Just what a Bonzo bible scholar might suggest. God wants everything done by David Ortiz's rules and formula. Otherwise, the straight talk, the obvious sense of Jesus Christ's words might be code. Just to fool catholics, Huh, David???

While ''Bible-believeing Dudes. & cyber punks have all the answers.

I see. The apostles wrote it ''funny'', so only the Bashers would know how to interpret. Just what God is GOOD AT; misleading us!

You won't see my ironic intent. Because you haven't the smarts, D.O.; you are a lightweight. Go on then, BELIEVE ON your silly interpretations of the Word of God. If you had real FAITH, you wouldn't expect God to throw curves at you in the Holy Bible. ''Isolate verses''---! Now I've heard it all from the sectarian wilderness. Isolate THIS, David: You need a laxative. You're stuffed with caca!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 17, 2003.

Yes eugene, keep on attacking the person saying the message. And where did 'eucharist' come from? Does eucharist mean bread? Go on, ignore the rest of what the bible says. You have no excuse. Your ignorance and arrogance makes you so closed minded. So eugene an paul have all the answers?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 18, 2003.

Eucharist, David,
is Thanksgiving. Giving God thanks.

Yes, I'm ''attacking'' the so-called messenger. His message is anti-Catholic with no apologies; so I'm not apologising either. If you come here to make war, let's have war. If it's for peace you came, you wouldn't be preaching your silly sermons. ''Believe On'' or get with the protestant program???'' --Who made you our Pope?

You, Sir, are here to learn. Not to instruct. If you think you can instruct you're mistaken. We aren't your Sunday School children. The Holy Catholic Church teaches followers of Jesus Christ, not cyber punks. Come here and learn. Or stay out and remain a lost sheep.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 18, 2003.

I feel I being ignored on this thread. (Boo Hoo!)

David, I cannot believe you accused Catholics of mishandling the Bible. Protestants castigated the Bible by removing 7 books. Then they chop, dice, spin and rearrange the pieces like a 1 million piece puzzle coming up with doctrine after doctrine after doctrine, all of them fads, popular with the times, and changeable with use!

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour,having been made flesh and blood for our salvation,so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word,and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished,is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr,First Apology,66(A.D. 110-165),in ANF,I:185

"He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood,from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body,from which he gives increase to our bodies." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,V:2,2(c.A.D. 200),in NE,119

"Having learn these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, And bread strengtheneth man's heart, to make his face to shine with oil, 'strengthen thou thine heart,' by partaking thereof as spiritual, and "make the face of thy soul to shine." " Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,XXII:8(c.A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:152

"Then having sanctified ourselves by these spiritual Hymns, we beseech the merciful God to send forth His Holy Spirit upon the gifts lying before Him; that He may make the Bread the Body of Christ, and the Wine the Blood of Christ; for whatsoever the Holy Ghost has touched, is surely sanctified and changed." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,XXIII:7(c.A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:154

"You will see the Levites (priests) bringing the loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers and invocations have not yet been made,it is mere bread and a mere cup. But when the great and wonderous prayers have been recited, then the bread becomes the body and the cup the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ....When the great prayers and holy supplications are sent up, the Word descends on the bread and the cup, and it becomes His body." Athanasius,Sermon to the Newly Baptized,PG 26,1325(ante A.D. 373),in ECD,442

"Then He added: 'For My Flesh is meat indeed, and My Blood is drink [indeed].' Thou hearest Him speak of His Flesh and of His Blood, thou perceivest the sacred pledges, [conveying to us the merits and power] of the Lord's death, and thou dishonourest His Godhead. Hear His own words: 'A spirit hath not flesh and bones.' Now we, as often as we receive the Sacramental Elements, which by the mysterous efficacy of holy prayer are transformed into the Flesh and the Blood, "do show the Lord's Death.'" Ambrose,On the Christian Faith,4,10:125(A.D. 380),in NPNF2,X:278

"Perhaps you will say, 'I see something else, how is it that you assert that I receive the Body of Christ?' And this is the point which remains for us to prove. And what evidence shall we make use of? Let us prove that this is not what nature made, but what the blessing consecrated, and the power of blessing is greater than that of nature, because by blessing nature itself is changed...The Lord Jesus Himself proclaims: 'This is My Body.' Before the blessing of the heavenly words another nature is spoken of, after the consecration the Body is signified. He Himself speaks of His Blood. Before the consecration it has another name, after it is called Blood. And you say, Amen, that is, It is true. Let the heart within confess what the mouth utters, let the soul feel what the voice speaks." Ambrose,On the Mysteries,9:50(A.D. 390-391),in NPNF2,X:324-325

" 'And was carried in His Own Hands:' how 'carried in His Own Hands'? Because when He commended His Own Body and Blood, He took into His Hands that which the faithful know; and in a manner carried Himself, when He said, 'This is My Body.' " Augustine,On the Psalms,33:1,10(A.D. 392-418),in NPNF1,VIII:73

And the heretic says, "Oh, but I'm greater than these! Come follow ME!" Like the Pied Piper, so are YE, David, and others like you who swarm around this forum like vultures to prey believing that you're the special one, that the Holy Spirit enables you to see something no one else ever has! And hence, a new "Pet" doctrine is formed.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 18, 2003.

"To believe is to accept, internalize, and absorb which is what eating is--allowing an outside substance to come inside of you".

That's a good interpretation of John 6 in ENGLISH by ENGLISH speaking folk in the year 2003. However, Christ was speaking most likely in Aramic in the year 30 with a Jewish crowd. Therefore, in order to think that Christ could have meant this, you would have to be able to prove that Jews in the year 30 would use that interpretation. According to scholars, on the contrary, for one to say "eat me" figurativly, it would have been a very nasty statement.

Understand this: that is the problem with a personal interpretation of the Bible. The Bible is over 2000 years of writings by different authors during different times, in different languages, in different cultural settings. Your inevitably gunna wrap all these things into one culture, in one laguage, at one time. Things are bound to be misconstrude. Even scholars have a hard time researching what certain phrases ment!

So to say that Christ meant something by his statements when you have little or no knowledge of that time period, and little or no knowledge of that people, is downright silly.

Fortunatly for the Catholic Church, we have all those meanings! They've been passed down, documented, and guarded by the Power of the Holy Spirit since Penticost in the year 33AD! No other Church can trace it's history past the year 1500AD, and therefore no other Church can claim to know Truly and thoroughly the meaning of God's Word in the Bible (which was compiled and sealed in the year 395AD by none other than the Catholic Church herself).

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), June 18, 2003.

Thank you so much for this imformation i used all of you letters for my project so thanx

Jessica Baker (Age 12)(South Africa)

-- Jessica Baker (08jesb@webmail.co.za), June 19, 2003.

God Almighty we thank Thee!

A young lady writes from South Africa! Is our little forum giving glory to God???

If He wills, a thousand more young children, girls AND boys, can be offered up to Our Holy Redeemer; learning about His Holy Church here, without false ideas, or pseudo-Christian double-talk. Courage, Jessica! Keep the holy faith, Dearest!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 19, 2003.

A reprise of Jake's good post:

So to say that Christ meant something by his statements when you have little or no knowledge of that time period, and little or no knowledge of that people, is downright silly. Fortunatly for the Catholic Church, we have all those meanings! They've been passed down, documented, and guarded by the Power of the Holy Spirit since Penticost in the year 33AD! No other Church can trace it's history past the year 1500AD, and therefore no other Church can claim to know Truly and thoroughly the meaning of God's Word in the Bible (which was compiled and sealed in the year 395AD by none other than the Catholic Church herself). -- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), June 18, 2003.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 20, 2003.

Reprise and joyful return vs. the oddball's interruptions:

A young lady writes from South Africa! Is our little forum giving glory to God??? If He wills, a thousand more young children, girls AND boys, can be offered up to Our Holy Redeemer; learning about His Holy Church here, without false ideas, or pseudo-Christian double-talk. Courage, Jessica! Keep the holy faith, Dearest! -- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 19, 2003. --------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 20, 2003.

No man comes to father unless the Spirit draws him. Outside are dogs and those who LOVE AND PRACTICE LIES. It IS TRUE IN OUR JOURNEYS its as if the Lord in not there. He said though I have hidden my face from thee in the moment of my wrath. When Gods face is tuned away there is no light or life; the face of the Lord has turned from the works of man . Yet his arm is not too short that he cannot save, repent of thy idolatry and He shall restore the. Woe, to you who add unto the word of the Lord to justify thy unholy traditions. You spoke for God as if he was using you, no that he hand of God is against thee.Isaiah 41:21 Behold, you are worse then nothing and your work-traditions-worse then a viper: an abomination is he that chooseth you

-- Alexinthe lightofGodsword (truthisfreedom316@yahoo.com), June 21, 2003.

Well here it is in context. Read it and believe - or misinterpret your way out of it, if you can't believe ... "He who EATS My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is TRUE food, and My blood is TRUE drink. He who EATS My flesh and DRINKS My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who EATS Me, he also will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who EATS this bread will live forever. These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father. As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. (John 6:54- 66) Note: ""This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" Does this sound like a group of people who thought Jesus was speaking symbolically? Why would it be so difficult to listen to a simple analogy? Note the words of Jesus: "But there are some of you who do not believe". Believe what? That they were to eat His flesh and drink His blood - that's what. Nothing else He had said would be difficult to believe. And Jesus called them unbelievers because they did not accept His word on that essential point, because it was too "difficult" for their level of faith. "As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore". Does this sound like people who thought He was simply making some sort of analogy about listening to His word? Pretty extreme reaction over a simple symbolic analogy, wouldn't you say? -- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 17, 2003.

Thanks, Paul. Let's give the thread some relief from U-Know-Who.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 21, 2003.

Once more; Please get out of the way, Alex Ruiz.,

If He wills, a thousand more young children, girls AND boys, can be offered up to Our Holy Redeemer; learning about His Holy Church here, without false ideas, or pseudo-Christian double-talk. Courage, Jessica! Keep the holy faith, Dearest! -- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 20, 2003.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 21, 2003.

Eduardo,
That's a simplistic reaction. Actually, intelligence has very little to do with faith. If it did, all the geniuses would come into the Catholic faith.

As it happens, many of our world's brightest men & women have no faith in God at all. And thousands of humble, uneducated folks are faithful to God; even live as saints.

The young girl who met Our Lady of Lourdes daily in 1858, Bernadette Soubirou; a saint in the Catholic Church, was very, very ignorant. Some people in her town of Lourdes even said she belonged in an instituion for half-wits. She couldn't keep up in school. Yet Our Blessed Mother was her confidante, and loved her over all the bright and famous people who came to the miraculous springs at Lourdes.

It was grace which set her apart from the bright minds of her world. Grace coming from God, through His Holy Mother. Grace is something in the soul, not the mind. We must receive it from god first. That's why His Church is so very important. The Church is here in the world primarily to sanctify us. We receive grace from Jesus Christ in all her holy sacraments. Most of all in Holy Communion.

Protestants are cut off from the grace of Jesus Christ by way of his Holy Church. God still loves each one of them, but his grace is not easily accesible to them as a whole. I believe some are given grace and may even become saints. But it's only by extraordinary means. We must treat each soul as worthy of receiving God's grace; if we can only give them Christ's real Gospel. They need it more than intelligence in this life. The soul can live for God very well without great intelligence. But not without grace; no matter how smart we are.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 09, 2003.

yeh Jake! You tell 'em! mom

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), July 10, 2003.

Hi.

I think that it started way back in history during the time of the conversion of the pagans. Could it be that the Church, in all of Her power, converted the masses by utilizing the strong arms of people such as Charlemagne and Rodrigo del Bivar? The pagans had one of two choices: 1. Baptism in the Catholic Church, or 2. Death by beheading. History has it that many pagans were converted this way, back then. It also didn't help that Martin Lurther started a chain reaction of disobedience both in religious matters and social affairs. Protestants began to express their view of the Church as an oppressive government instead of the "true" Church. It wasn't an issue of theology, in my opinion, that was the straw on the camel's back. I think it was the idea of being under the Papacy's rule. I believe that the people found a voice or power in becoming "Protestant" against all institutions. They felt that they could now determine their own doctrine for Salvation and didn't need anyone as a "go between".

Obviously, we see evidence of Luther's handy work in all of the Protestant denominations. But, I wonder what would happen, if people were knowledgable of their roots in relation to their religious conversions.

Today, we have "freedom", but we don't really understand the responsibility that comes with it. "Freedom of choice" seems to give people the idea that we give that freedom up when we allow an institution to govern our religious beliefs. Well, we kind of do. We must surrender our will to do God's will. We still have two choices: 1. Surrender to God's will , or 2. "Die" as Scriptures describe and teach.

rod. . . .... . .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 10, 2003.

Well....obviously....this conflict cause a lot of problems and innocent lives....the problem is that...protestant wants to be a protestant while a catholic wants to stay as a catholic

-- Derek Wong (schneider_cranes@yahoo.com), July 12, 2003.

Hi.

"protestant wants to be a protestant while a catholic wants to stay as a catholic "

You are missing something in your statement.

A believer wants to stay in the truth

The truth is God

rod.. ... . . .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 12, 2003.

The truth is Jesus Christ. Remember, "I am the way and the truth and the life" John 14:6

-- Mike (blank@none.com), July 12, 2003.

Yes, true.

"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
"I and the Father are one." John 10:29-30.(NASB)

rod.. .. . .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 12, 2003.

I'm sorry, but I get bored sometimes reading the same old whiney stuff from the same anti-Catholics.

It's like a person who tells everyone else about Chicago...Chicago this...Chicago that....they read books and articles about Chicago...and statements from people who used to live in Chicago (maybe the former resident hated Chicago and moved away). At any rate, these "Chicago" experts have NEVER EVEN BEEN TO CHICAGO EVEN ONCE!!! (You can tell I'm formerly from Illinios...ha ha.)

I suppose you can guess my little analogy here...

I'm am sick and tired of people yammering on about Chicago (Catholicism) and how they have all of these "proofs" about how "horrible" Catholicism is AND they've never been there to SEE FOR THEMSELVES. Go to Mass, then come back to the forum and report to us.

(Can't go there, you say? Why not? Wesley used to go to the bars to preach to people there, because he knew they wouldn't come to church. Are you too sanctified to go to Mass? And if you're worried about missing your own Sunday service, Mass is held daily in most places, so go then. I triple-dog dare ya! LOL!)

-- Victoria (tecdork99@pvfnet.com), July 12, 2003.

I double that triple-dog dare!

Gail

P.S. You might be surprised at what you find at the Mass! I know I was. Victoria, you are from Illinois? You're my neighbor. I'm in Missouri!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 12, 2003.

"I'm am sick and tired of people yammering on about Chicago (Catholicism) and how they have all of these "proofs" about how "horrible" Catholicism is AND they've never been there to SEE FOR THEMSELVES. Go to Mass, then come back to the forum and report to us."

I'm staying home... lol!!!

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 13, 2003.

Hi Gail...I always love reading your posts. Actually, I grew up in Illinois, but now live in Wisconsin, although...most of my extended family are from Southern Iowa and parts of Missouri. We're just Midwest people, I guess. :0)

Emerald...I am always entertained not only by your posts, but by the onslaught of "post-posts" that always seem to follow them! ha ha. Loved your limmericks, BTW.

Randir14: Yes, people should act like brothers and not fight...and I am guessing that this behavior wounds the heart of Christ. Still, it's not about who's right or wrong (which can be argued about for eternity depending on who's saying what), it's about truth. People who live in the light of Christ's TRUTH, do not behave this way.

Just thought I'd put my two-cents in.

-- Victoria (tecdork99@pvfnet.com), July 13, 2003.

Emerald...again...you are TOO funny for words. Just checked your link from my quote, out of curiousity, and the organization is in Chicago.....LOL...ROFL....ha ha ha ha ha. You're cheeky...you know!!! :o) Yes, I guess I deserve that for whining. Thanks for the reality check. LOL!!!

-- Victoria (tecdork99@pvfnet.com), July 14, 2003.

Reading this site just about brought me to tears. I do not know if anyone is still involved in this thread or not since it has been over a year since anyone has posted, but look at how terribly divisive your arguments are. The founding Fathers of our faith set before us the things that are essential to being a Christian in the Creeds. (Nicene, Apostles, etc) They developed these to weed out those who were preaching against the core of what it means to be a Christian (gnostics, arianism, and the like) These statements of faith along with the Holy Scriptures tell us the basis for our faith. There is a famous statement that says, "In essentials, let there be unity; in nonessentials, liberty; and in all things, charity" There is no use arguing about the things we don't agree on. The important thing is that we believe in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be one God in three persons and that belief in the Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ will grant us an eternity with Christ. In the one recorded prayer for the Church, Christ prayed for unity among the Brethren not uniformity, unity.

How amazing would it be if instead of arguing over these things we refuse to agree with each other on, we would stand together on the core foundations laid out in the creeds. How different would the world be if Christians would act like Christians and love one another in spite of differences. If we could agree to disagree in some areas and let Christ set us straight when we are before His judgement seat. We make the central issue infant baptism, or the Gifts of the Spirit, or the 'Right Bible,' instead of making the central issue Christ the Son of God crucified and risen for our sins...

-- Laura H. (laurempear@yahoo.com), October 25, 2004.

Civil wars are worst than others because the combatants are brothers... domestic squabbles often times get more vicious than attacks on complete strangers because there is more baggage brought into the conflict...

Which is why the Protestant/Catholic arguments so quickly move from scriptural analysis and interpretation to ad hominem diatribes condemning one or the other to hell.

Ecumenism is a tough thing to do - it requires alot of study and a lot of prayer. Not study alone, nor prayer alone. Both. And because the issue is so important it's also probably best left in the hands of those who have studied the most and prayed the most!

-- joe (joestong@yahoo.com), October 25, 2004.

Laura:
We're pleased with your sensitive words, ''How amazing would it be if instead of arguing over these things we refuse to agree with each other on, we would stand together on the core foundations laid out in the creeds. How different would the world be if Christians would act like Christians and love one another in spite of differences.''

No one wants to argue or ''refuse to agree.'' Catholics don't want ''exclusive rights'' to our faith. It is Christ who desires our union-- Communion --with Himself in One Church. The Catholic Church from all available evidence is still that total Communion revealed by the Holy Spirit, but those outside are in error. They weren't driven away by Catholics. They left the fold.

Jesus describes His Church as ONE sheepfold, and He is her chief Shepherd. The lambs are His. He made us all His by redeeming us and establishing the Church to guard us and separate us, from the world. Those who sin haven't all been lost to the fold. Inside the fold our Church, they find forgiveness of sin and grace in His divine presence.

All those sheep who have escaped Him into error are His, too. He desires their return to His fold.

Outside the fold and lost in error, there is no reliable forgiveness of sin. The Shepherd isn't keeping those sheep who stray, He keeps His in the fold. He will try to bring back His lost sheep; that much is revealed. How? Maybe you'll contemplate this mystery: HOW is Christ looking for me, a lost sheep? Is He with me here in the world, the wilderness? --asks the lost sheep. Not truly, in the way His FAITHFUL are.

You aren't really faithful if you reject the life of grace promised to His own in the Church His Mystical Body. There only is His sheepfold, the Holy Catholic Church. There is no true faith in half-truths and contradictions. There is no place outside His fold where His sheep won't be in grave danger. In the world they're prey to deception and false doctrines.

It is URGENT, every day of a Christian's earthly life, to realise where the True Church is; because there is the fold of the Good Shepherd.

''How different would the world be if Christians acted like Christians; loved one another in spite of differences,'' you said. --And we definitely feel that way from our side, inside His fold. We do love you, our separated brethren. Believe it.

There is no separation that can last forever. Because Jesus said so; He prayed His Eternal Father that we might be ONE, even as He and his Father are One. Jesus prophesied clearly; there will be One fold and One Shepherd. You and our other separated brethren have to return, thanks to Him; --God's Will be done. Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 25, 2004.

The Church lost England and much of Europe because it would not bend the truth. I pray that it does not give all that hard fogh faith for some kind of weak ecumanism.

-- Meyer (Tradskyu@aol.com), October 25, 2004.

How amazing would it be if instead of arguing over these things we refuse to agree with each other on, we would stand together on the core foundations laid out in the creeds

tell that to most of the protestants who like to drop in here. I don't go out and pick disagreements, but i will not watch the church which Christ founded be trampled by some miscreant who thinks himself a bible authority above those whom God has promised the Holy Spirit to guide.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), October 25, 2004.