The Rapturegreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
Before I post anything on this subject I would like to hear a few people out first.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), July 02, 2003
JmjFor a quick summary of the mixture of doctrines on this subject that are held by various protestant groups, and to learn what Catholics are permitted to believe (and must reject) on this topic, I highly recommend reading this essay (from Catholic Answers, Inc.).
To see how Gail and others, in an Oct/Nov 2002 thread, helped Tim (a Baptist) to understand what Catholics believe on this subject, please click here.
David O, if your belief about "rapture"/"second coming" is something that Catholics must reject (according to the above two linked pages), then please do not even bother to post it. It would waste your time and ours to post it, because we know that it can't possibly be correct. But if your belief about "rapture/"second coming" is something that Catholics are permitted to believe, feel free to share it.
God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 02, 2003.
I do believe in the Rapture, the pre-trib rapture. A Christian should always be ready no matter if they believe in this. I'll post more on this later.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), July 02, 2003.
Dear D.O. All of us are familiar with the description of a ''rapture'' in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16; it says ''caught up''. But this moment comes after the tribulations. The tribulations are to last only a short time, Jesus tells us. This is for the sake of the elect (Mark 13:20). So the elect, the saints, will be on earth during the tribulation. Plain & simple. In John 11:23, Jesus says to Martha, ''Thy brother (Lazarus) shall rise.'' And she answered Him: ''I know that he will rise at the resurrection, on the last day.'' Christ didn't correct Martha or say, ''The rapture comes before the last day.'' He said, ''I am the resurrection and the life.'' Thess 4 :14-16 is on the LAST DAY, David. You have learned from false teachers of Christ's gospel. Men who didn't know what they were talking about. That's why you don't know either. It's private interpretation of the scripture that leads to gross error. This is just one more proof. --I've moved this post here from another thread. Pardon me for posting another lesson for David. Will he ever learn?
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 02, 2003.
Yep, David, Christ says "AFTER the tribulation of those days, you will see the Son of Man." Your eschatology is nothing more than pet- doctrine invented by men who pervert the scripture for their OWN glory in order to draw away men after themselves and SELL BOOKS at the local Christian bookstore!Once again, Christianity has been reduced to the latest FAD doctrine. Satan proclaims these new fads to exhaust the saints and to keep their eyes focused OFF of the Savior, and on to WHAT THEY CAN GET from God.
What is so completely SICKENING about this famous American doctrine is that it feeds the FLESH. The flesh doesn't want to SUFFER -- God forbid! That's for those over in Europe, Asia, or Africa but not for us AMERICANS!
I even heard the well known Protestant preacher, John McArthur, say that Christians won't be here when the Antichrist is revealed which is in DIRECT contradiction of Thessalonians Chap 2:
"Now we request you brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be distrubed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. LET NO ONE IN ANY WAY DECEIVE YOU, FOR IT WILL NOT COME UNLESS THE APOSTASY COMES FIRST, AND THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, THE SON OF DESTRUCTION."
Why didn't St. Paul say: "Don't worry -- you won't be here when the Antichrist comes for you will be wisked away on a cloud of glory!"
Maranatha,
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 02, 2003.
Haha! Yes, Gail;
I want to laugh when I see the dumb bumper sticker which says: ''Caution! Rapture is coming and this car will be without a driver!''Only a moron would stick that on his car bumper! Yes; MORON.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 02, 2003.
I agree with one thing David O. said. A Christian should always be ready no matter if they believe in this.
Jesus did warn us that the end of the world could come at any time so we should always be ready for it. So David O., I am glad that you are preparing yourself for the end of the world.
By the way, you mentioned that you will be posting more later. If it pertains to the Rapture, then don't bother as most of us are aware of the errant teachings of the Rapture.
-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), July 02, 2003.
David, on another thread, you said,"Gail, 'BUT you believe that EVERYONE who IS baptized in the Holy Spirit MUST speak in tongues contrary to what scripture says, right?. That's what AG believes.' I never said, stop assuming, we all know what happens when you ass/u/me. That's a 'misconception' you have about AoG."
NO MISCONCEPTION, DAVID, HERE IS WHAT YOUR AoG believes ACCORDING TO THEIR WEBSITE:
*****
Is tongues the only evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit? Will there be any significant changes in one's attitudes and actions after being baptized in the Spirit?
The first physical sign of the infilling of the Spirit is speaking in tongues. This is the one physical sign that is consistent in its recurrence, as pointed out earlier. However, the Baptism in not a goal but a gateway. It is a door to Spirit-filled living. It marks a beginning, not an end. Speaking in tongues is but the initial evidence and is to be followed by all the evidences of Christlikeness that mark a consistent Spirit-filled life.
*******
Here is what scripture says:
St. Paul asks the rhetorical questions: "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 1 Cor 12:29-30)
Further Corinthians says this:
For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguighing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues, BUT ONE AND THE SAME SPIRIT WORKS ALL THESE THINGS, DISTRIBUTING TO EACH ONE INDIVIDUALLY JUST AS HE WILLS. 1 Cor 12 8-11
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 02, 2003.
The current paradigm is influenced by end-time prophecies due to the end of the last millenium.Such books as the Left Behind series (which I have read) are entertaining but theological unsound in their interpretations. The book are good in that they start people questioning and if they start someone down the path, so much the better.
It's funny that some ministers who preached about the end-times, a couple of years ago, as if it were going to happen any minute, are now preaching differently.
Bottom line -- Only the Father knows when the world will end. Be prepared spiritually, do good and enjoy life.
God bless,
-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), July 02, 2003.
Elijah and Enoch [Gen. 5:22-24, Heb. 11:5] who did not physically die, were taken up to heaven suddenly.
"Because you have kept my command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth." (Revelation 3:10)
"Then there shall be two men in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left." (Matthew 24:40-41)
"For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him." (I Thessalonians 5:4,9-10)
-- David Oritz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), July 02, 2003.
But immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and the sign of the Son will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory, AND HE WILL SEND FORTH HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT TRUMPET AND THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM ONE END OF THE SKY TO THE OTHER. Matt 24:29-31I hope the guys that are touting their FAD will be around to clean up the mess they've made when people begin to lose their faith! One church we visited before finally coming home was a small Nazarene Church who was teaching the Left Behind series in their Sunday School class! The teacher said, "When I have doubts about the end times, I always fall back on my Left Behind series."
Gail
P.S. I guess David is going to ignore my post concerning his church's official stance on "speaking in tongues." It figures. People in straw houses shouldn't throw stones at the House built on Stone -- Cornerstone that is.
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 02, 2003.
I'm ignoring your post because this threads' about the Rapture. I'll be back later to reply on the other thread.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), July 02, 2003.
David,
The words of Saint Paul about the saints being caught up (raptured) into the air are not in question here. There IS going to be the one who is taken, one left behind. But this is in the last day, which is when Christ returns in glory. Before the last day, no one is raptured. All, the faithful and the unfaithful will see the tribulations, before Christ's 2nd coming. The days will be shortened, says Jesus, (Mark 13:20) for the sake of the elect. The faithful.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 02, 2003.
Eugene, it's no worse than a bumper sticker I saw the other day that said:Jesus loves you, but I'm His favorite.
-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), July 02, 2003.
Well, apparently you are ignoring my whole post including the part about Christ's 2nd Coming, so here it is again:But immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and the sign of the Son will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory, AND HE WILL SEND FORTH HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT TRUMPET AND THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM ONE END OF THE SKY TO THE OTHER. Matt 24:29-31
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 02, 2003.
Dear Gail,
David MUST ignore your post. He has no answer. It's very clear in the Bible.It isn't unusal. These pathetic sects continuously ignore prefectly clear passages of the Bible. Then they proclaim the truth of the Word of God. It's really because they call whatever they want to be the truth --truth.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 02, 2003.
Where is your answer on the tongues issue, David?
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 02, 2003.
In Matthew 24 Christ gives us an outline of the signs or events that will take place just before the end of the world. He declares in Matthew 24:21-31."For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[the next verse describes the great tribulations]
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect......."
[Speaking in tongues falls in this category]
Matthew 24:22 teaches that the tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect, we see that the believers will be present through the final tribulation.
Here are more clues on the "great tribulations", In II Thessalonians 2 we discover more information that points to the rapture at the end of time. In this passage God teaches us that two evens must happen before He will come for His believers. The first is the rebellion and the second is that the man of sin must be revealed. The man of sin will be revealed at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, at which time Christ will slay him with the breath of His mouth. That is, the wicked will be cast into hell. Let us read these verses, II Thessalonians 2:1-9:
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the sin of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [here Satan takes over the churches]
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, [here the Holy Spirit who restrains Satan lets Satan go to destroy the churches with all of his abominations]
until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."
Who is the "man of sin"? If we understand that he is Satan himself, as he works through his emissaries called false prophets or false Christs, we will have total Biblical validation. We find in these verses that he is worshipped as God. Revelation 13:4 speaks of the dragon, who is Satan, being worshipped:
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Thus, the language of II Thessalonians 2, which speaks of the man of sin being worshipped, points to Satan as being the man of sin. How can Satan be called a man? Isn’t he a fallen angel? We can see that he is called a man because he was typified by the king of Babylon who, of course, was a man.
In Isaiah 14 we read of the fall of Lucifer and from the context we know that Lucifer is Satan. God refers to Lucifer as a man in Isaiah 14:16:"They that see thee narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms?"
Satan is called a man because this activity was prefigured by the king of Babylon (Isaiah 14:4). As Revelation 18 teaches, Babylon is used often in the Bible as a figure of the kingdom of Satan. Thus, we see the parallelism that exists. On the one hand we have Babylon, which is ruled over by the king of Babylon. On the other hand we have Satan’s dominion, which his ruled over by Satan.
We know that before Christ comes again, the man of sin (Satan) must take his seat (rule) in the temple (the church or body of believers) where he will be worshipped as God. Since he is a spirit, he cannot be seen literally to rule amongst the body of believers. He can rule, however, through false prophets and pseudo-Christs who bring a gospel other than the true Gospel. The Bible speaks of this kind of activity in
II Corinthians 11:13-14:"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."
Similarly, we read in Matthew 24:24:"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
These verses emphasize the utter deceitfulness of Satan in this effort. The gospel he brings is so much like the true Gospel that even the elect would be deceived if that were possible.
Note in Matthew 24:24 that these false prophets will come with signs and wonders. Satan will come not only with a gospel so closely patterned after the true Gospel that even the elect would be deceived if that were possible, but he will give life and vitality to his gospel with signs and wonders. Even as Jesus came 2000 years ago with signs and wonders when He brought us the true Gospel, so Satan will attest to the seemingly God-like, Jesus-related character of his gospel by coming with signs and wonders.
The passage in II Thessalonians 2:1-9, also speaks of signs and wonders. The false prophets who represent Satan will come with signs and wonders, as verse 9 teaches, "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."
We must realize, of course, that these false prophets have been so deceived that they are convinced that they are servants of Christ. Satan is the great deceiver, the father of lies (John 8:44). Moreover, II Thessalonians 2:10-11 teaches that God blinds those who come with signs and lying wonders because they refuse to believe the truth.
The church, which consists of congregations and denominations all over the world, will be infiltrated and finally overrun by those who bring false gospels. The chief method of recognizing this threat is to look at its focus on signs and wonders.
We will include here a definition of the true Gospel. In Revelation 22:18-19 God declares:"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book"
Never again could there be a vision or a voice or a tongue from God. Thus the true Gospel is circumscribed by the Bible. It alone and in its entirety is the articulated, verbalized Word of God. Therefore, anyone who comes with a gospel based upon the Bible but to which he has added the idea of the possibility of divine truth from the other sources, such as visions, voices, tongues, dreams, or so-called infallible utterances of church leaders, comes with what is by definition another gospel.
May God give us wisdom.....
-- C.S (Embasader333@yahoo.com), July 02, 2003.
While you're waiting for the wisdom, CS;Save the preaching. It's all unnecessary. The Catholic Church is our sole authorized Teacher. --How can you keep repeating verse after verse, as if you truly knew the significance? You've proven to everybody here you have no gift. Please write a book. Get it published somewhere else?
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 03, 2003.
C.S., an interesting appraisal, but here are a few things to consider.The Antichrist will attempt to seat himself in the "temple of God." There has been much speculation about the "temple" from the earliest times. It has always been thought to refer to a Christian church, OR Jerusalem. Afterall, the Jews are still awaiting Messiah, one that will rule and reign in earthly power, just like they were when Christ came!
Right now in this world, we see the rise of false prophets, we see the rise in the occult, and materialism/humanism is eating people alive. It is quite possible that the Antichrist will rule the secular world in a "New Age" fashion. Afterall, he must claim HIMSELF to be God. He certainly will not validate the God of Abraham in any way, shape or form. How could he? He thinks he is God.
The rapture theory would be wonderful if it were true, but if you look at the persecution under Nero and Antiochus Epiphines, you see an archtype of the Antichrist. God's people suffered immense persecution under both of these archtypes, and God did not come secretly and take them home.
Secondly, Revelations speaks quite graphically of persecution against the saints. The persecutions under Nero fullfilled those prophesies, but only partially.
The persecutions in this past century, they say, have been more extraordinary than any time in the past. China, Sudan, communist countries have committed horendous atrocities against the people of God.
We Christians will certainly be "in the way" of the "progressive movement" that is alright underway, and I believe, in its last stages.
The microchip is already being used (the VeriChip), there are already families, and children that have volunteered for its use. That chip is representative of something dark and sinister, it represents DOMINION.
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 03, 2003.
Note: Christian Soldier has copied at least some of the above post from a protestant site, "When is the Rapture?".If you don't list your sources, that's plagiarism...
-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), July 03, 2003.
May God give us honesty...
-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), July 03, 2003.
Catherine AnnNice keep reading and God will guide you. Listening to the message is what is important. Anyhow you don't even know who I AM which isn't important. I am one who Loves God and proclaims HIS word.
Gail
Listen to how the Bible defines the antichrist. We read 1 John 2 2:18 "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."
1John 4:3"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
2John 1:7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."
You see anybody who is still unsaved is an antichrist. They are still under bondage with Satan. It isn't just one person. Everything we read about false prophets and teachers, they are the antichrist. And you said "Afterall, he must claim HIMSELF to be God."
Can you see, the churches because they failed God's biggest test, they think they are the pillar and ground of truth, they are claiming they are God. They think they have all truth. The churches are likened as a Harlot in Revelations because they have indulged in spiritual adultry with God, our Husbandman. The Bible should be speaking to us and not meer men who look white on outside but are like dead filthy tombs. Sounds like the pharasies?
If anybody has eyes to see and ears to hear, listen to what the Spirit says to the 7 Churches......
Peace
-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 03, 2003.
Sorry, C.S., my last post was just nasty. I was kind of frustrated when you insinuated that the Church's teachings are foolish.
-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), July 03, 2003.
Answer:
2John 1:7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." --You're very deceived, thinking in your heresy that the Church has taught error. That's the deception you have embraced, and you arrive at this Catholic site to disseminate it. That makes you an anti-Christ, CS. Not a Christian Soldier.
Our holy mother Church is teaching since Christ's day, very strictly, all the Christian mysteries to her faithful. We have always accepted Christ and His Incarnation ( God in the flesh). From the first days the Church is faithful to Jesus Christ, and remains so now. You are a fallen-away Catholic, whose house is divided against Christ's, the Church. In heretical doctrines. In total lack of faith in His Word. You aren't faithful.
The Bible has not divulged God's Holy Word to you. You've glossed over His revealed truths, believing instead many falsehoods taught you by heretics. They also were once Catholics. Martin Luther, John Knox, John Calvin, Henry VIII, and others. Your belief springs from their words and their sin; not from the Bible.
We get no pleasure out of warning you. We have no joy in judging your works. No happiness calling you a sinner. We have to tell you these things; the Holy Spirit demands we tell the truth! Now you cannot claim not to be informed. The only truth for you now is, you have rejected God's help, His truth. May He have mercy and save you from the power of Antichrist.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 03, 2003.
C.S. wrote:We must realize, of course, that these false prophets have been so deceived that they are convinced that they are servants of Christ. Satan is the great deceiver, the father of lies (John 8:44). Moreover, II Thessalonians 2:10-11 teaches that God blinds those who come with signs and lying wonders because they refuse to believe the truth.
and then:
I am one who Loves God and proclaims HIS word.
Could you possibly be a false prophet that has been deceived? I don't mean this as an accusation, but I love God, and I too, proclaim HIS Word. When I read at Mass I proclaim the Word of God. I ask for the Holy Spirit to fill my heart and work through me to proclaim the Word as it is meant to be proclaimed. Those times when I have been asked to talk to people about topics like the Beatitudes, I pray to God for the right words to say to convey the right meaning, and He responds.
So we both love God and we both proclaim His Word. Who's right?
Pax et Bonum.
-- Thomas (tcdzomba@excite.com), July 03, 2003.
CS, I'm not entirely sure what you are insinuating, but the Catholic Church confesses Jesus came in the flesh every single Sunday.The Antichrist is viewed as real person in Thessalonians as the Son of Perdition or the Son of Destruction. While many false prophets certainly do have the spirit of antichrist, there is THE Antichrist who is to come.
I see now that this thread is going to become yet another wasteland for Protestants to come and dump their garbage. It is really to bad that, for the most part, the Protestants that come to this forum are not interested in having rational, reasonable discussions based on scripture, but they are only interested in HEARING THEMSELVES SPOUT!
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 03, 2003.
ThomasI guess the difference is who do you put your authority, the Bible alone which is God speaking to us or the church feeding your brain with lies?
You can test what I say with the scriptures, I test every doctrine with scriptures. Do you check everybody out? Give me scriptures to prove me wrong and I will shut up!!!!!!
-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 03, 2003.
C.S.Do you know of anyone who can tell us the exact meaning of Revelations?
Which Protestant or non-Catholic denomination can sit down at tell us the exact meaning of any Scriptures in the Bible?
How many people in this world claim to have the truth and who should we believe?
Should we believe you and only you?
If you know the truth, than why hasn't the world followed you?
If you can prove that your interpretations are the truth (or anyone), then I'll drop what I'm doing right now and follow you.
rod. . . .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 03, 2003.
I guess the difference is who do you put your authority, the Bible alone, which has resulted in 450 years of fragmentation and doctrinal chaos, or the Church of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of truth, which has remained true and unfragmented for 2,000 years. No contest!
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 03, 2003.
We ARE testing your INTERPRETATION of scripture, and have posted responses, but you IGNORE those responses you have no answer for.For instance, where does it say that the churches are the Harlot? You are reading your own meaning into "Harlot." Why couldn't the Harlot be secular humanism? Why couldn't the Harlot be Satanism? Why couldn't the Harlot be the New Age religions?
I don't know who you got your eschatology from, but that and a dime might get ya a quarter cup of coffee!
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 03, 2003.
C.S. wrote:"I guess the difference is who do you put your authority, the Bible alone which is God speaking to us or the church feeding your brain with lies?"
I think the problem, C.S., is that you assume that God only speaks to us through the Bible.
What a shame. Your missing out on so much.
My authority is placed firmly in the hands of God. I test everthing through God. And He always answers me. Sometimes it is through Scriptures. Sometimes it is through people. Regardless, He always answers.
The Scriptures are one tool God uses. It is an authoritative tool no doubt, being that it is the Word of God. But it is a tool that can be easily misused, as Satan did when he tried to tempt Jesus.
Be open to God's presence everywhere and in everything, and you will see what I mean.
Pax et Bonum.
-- Thomas (tcdzomba@excite.com), July 04, 2003.
CS is losing it,--''I guess the difference is who do you put your authority, the Bible alone which is God speaking to us, or the church feeding your brain with lies?
You can test what I say with the scriptures, I test every doctrine with scriptures. Do you check everybody out? Give me scriptures to prove me wrong and I will shut up.'' HERE, CS:
do you put your authority, the Bible alone which is God speaking to us, or the church feeding your brain with lies? God does NOT speak to you in the Bible. You're deluded.The Catholic Church teaches the full truth, not lies. What's more, nowhere within the bible is ALL the authority placed on the Bible! Jesus never said, ''Blessed are the readers of the Bible.'' He DID say, ''If he refuse to hear the Church, let him be to you as the heathen and the publican. Amen I say to you, whatever you (the Church) bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven.'' This is His own Church he refers to, the AUTHORITY. (Matt, 18:17-18)
The Bible has no authority as a rule of faith unless the interpretation is correct according to the Church's (apostles') teachings. In any dispute over the meanings of whatever passage we read in the Bible, the Church is the sole authority. That is stated in the words of Christ: Matt 18:17-18.
CS: ''You can test what I say with the scriptures, I test every doctrine with scriptures.''
Precisely. You have no authority to test. The church is the sole authority, and you may NOT test every doctrine. The Church declares the doctrine, because her authority declares the interpretation of the scripture. Jesus Christ said it exactly: ''Whatever you bind on earth. Whatever you loose on earth--'' to the Church, not to the Bible.
And, CS-- Just in passing I'll repeat for you a point I made a week ago, which you ignore. When Christ says to his Church ''Whatever you bind on earth,'' it means universally-- on earth means everywhere, universal. Catholic is the Greek word for universal. That's the Church universal, ON EARTH. --The Catholic (universal) Church.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 04, 2003.
/ / /
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 04, 2003.
Why are some posts being taken out. What a deception and wicked thing to do! I try very hard to give ample information to what I try to claim. This happened before but I kept quiet. If you can't stand the scriptures I give you, take them out of the Bible, don't you rule over the BIBLE? Talk about stealing God's position. Doesn't anybody fear God? I have tried not to break your rules, and I try not to go over board. I posted something for Gail and you totally removed everything I wrote. I am not here to bash anyone but discuss certain issues that disturb me. You call this LOVE?Peace......
-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 04, 2003.
The Moderator can't stand the truth, he has no answers for you CS. All they can do is hide the truth from people by deleting posts
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), July 04, 2003.
None of your posts have contained truth. Yet I have allowed many of them to remain, in the hope that the sound and knowledgeable responses you receive would plant a seed of genuine truth in your hardened hearts. However, other messages you have posted have contained viscious attacks against the Holy Catholic Faith that are simply too obscene to allow. I opened one post which was quite long, and the first line I read was a statement that the Holy Mass of Jesus Christ, the only form of worship given to man directly by God, was voodoo. I don't know what else that post contained, for that one statement was more than enough to delete it immediately. This kind of brainless vitriol will not be allowed on the forum. I have already bent the rules to the breaking point in allowing you to post what you have posted. So don't push your luck. In any case, if you are not here to learn, you might as well leave, because it is clear that you are not in a position to share anything of value.Moderator
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 05, 2003.
Paulyou have to admit most of my posts are 90% scriptures, yes they are ugly verses but we can not ignore them! These are the words of God, for Christ sake. What do you have against the Word of God? You know, the more I read and see what goes on in this forum, makes me believe different about the Catholic Church. I see a side never before revealed to me. But it is not too late to repent! Can't you see you are playing God!!!! I feel bad for these dear people.
Do me a favor please put my post where I explained about the Harlot to Gail. I gave scriptures for her to look at. Why would you want to hide that from her. If your church is being guided by the Holy Spirit, then you have nothing to worry about!
Peace....
-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 05, 2003.
Repeated, for C.Soldier's sake. Please read it, Paolo:The Catholic Church teaches the full truth, not lies. What's more, nowhere within the Bible is ALL the authority placed on the Bible!
Jesus never said, ''Blessed are the readers of the Bible.'' He DID say, ''If he refuse to hear the Church, let him be to you as the heathen and the publican. Amen I say to you, whatever you (the Church) bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven.'' This is His own Church he refers to, the AUTHORITY. (Matt, 18:17-18)
The Bible is not the authority as a rule of faith unless the interpretation is correct according to the Church's (apostles') teachings. In any honest discussion over the meanings of the passages we read in the Bible, the Church is the sole authority. That is stated in the words of Christ: Matt 18:17-18.
Your quotes out of scripture are only true when they correspond to Catholic doctrine. --For instance, if you, CS, quote the commandment ''Thou shalt not bear false witness,'' that's a truth; God has revealed this to His Church. She teaches this commandment as truth in her doctrine and your interpretation is not false.
But, in denying various other truths, --Christ truly changing bread and wine into His Body and Blood, for instance, --you have no authority to deny the doctrines of the Catholic faith. Your quotation will be false, if you say anything contrary to the Church. You have already done this; saying the Church of Jesus Christ is ''invisible''. No scripture bears this out; you added your own false doctrine.
You must serve only the truth when you quote a verse from the Bible. The Bible is useless when corroborating a falsehood. We know it, and scripture has proven it, when the devil quoted scripture as he tempted Jesus Christ!
You come here and repeatedly corrupt the meanings of many passages. That's why we have to reject you & David O. and Kevin. The three of you fail to see the truth in the scriptures.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 05, 2003.
Hey guys...I've been out of town. Hope everyone had a nice 4th of July...or 1st of July, for my Canadian friends. :o)I couldn't resist this "Rapture" thread, having been raised Assemblies of God and Pentacostal, but now a convert to Catholicism. I've heard every theory on the "Last Days" from every protestant minister for the last thirty years. I've even heard the author of "The Late Great Planet Earth" in person, as a kid.
Boy was I scared of all of that stuff! I used to call my mother from school on a frequent basis, just to be sure she hadn't disappeared and left me to fend for myself during the tribulation due to some sin I had committed on the playground that day, that hadn't been forgiven...and then just my luck...the Rapture. Childhood was pretty terrifying due to that thought.
The only logical problem I had as an adult about all of this was...why would God give us a book 2,000 years ago that was to "sit dormant" until someone could come along in the 1970's and "explain" it? Why would He do that?
Since I wondered about all of this, still as a Protestant, I traced my own church's beliefs about the Rapture. I studied the founder of my sect, and who she got her beliefs about that issue from. Then, I studied THAT guy, and where he got his beliefs about the Rapture, and then that guy, and that guy, and that guy...until the trail finally led back to a shocking horrible conclusion that I certainly wasn't ready for....it goes back to two Jesuit priests in Spain. I almost fell out of my chair at the library when I came across that. I actually said, "Oh my God!" out loud and the librarian gave me a dirty look. I wasn't swearing either...I was really calling out to God in my moment of absolute Protestant shock and awe! Of course, I didn't like finding out this information at all. I wanted to run out of the library screaming, but alas...I had to deal with it.
This is when I started my research in earnest...and found out that all roads lead back to the Catholic Church. Very unsettling for me at that time. It took me a year, even after I knew the truth, to do anything about it because I was in denial. Finally, the Spirit of the Lord said to me, "OK...so it's true. What are you gonna do about it?"
From my private research about the Rapture thing, (from non-biased sources) I know it's been the idea of a few individuals in the last century that got passed around. That notion did not exist before a hundred years ago. I looked it up, as I stated before, because I wanted to know it's birth.
I just wanted to say to David, that I have appreciated GREATLY his posts and participation in this forum. I don't agree with him on many principles, due to my conversion from his faith...which was once my own...however, David is a breath of fresh air compared to Alex. At least David tries to post intellegent comments and scripture verses. I actually think that David has been called to the Catholic Church, the way that I was, otherwise, God would not have called him to this forum.
I will wait each Easter Vigil to hear the good news, David. Come Home.
-- Victoria (tecdork99@pvfnet.com), July 05, 2003.
EugeneDo you believe the Bible is God's breathed words to us? If you say yes, so what's the problem? How do you know the Holy Spirit is not working in me when I state some of these scriptures? I Corinthians 3:16, we read:"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" So ignore what I say and just read the scriptures I give. Can't you see by you ruling over the Bible, makes you like a god. God tells us to not rule over his flock but set an example. 1Peter5:3 "Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. "
Maybe you didn't read my post but I proved that the Bible speaks about 2 churches, A spiritual and a physical. I will show it again from the Bible, please read the scriptures I give you, and stop making me look like a liar! I will go slowly this time.
Can I begin by saying that the Bible in it entirety is God's personality or God's foundation? Is this biblical? John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." So we know Jesus Christ came down to confirm the Word, or the Bible. Is this correct so far?
Or we read in I Corinthians 3:11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. "
So if the Lord Jesus Christ Is the Word (BIBLE)that became flesh, and HE laid the foundation which we build on, is it wrong to say the Bible should be everybodys' foundation? Now the verse tells us we build with "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;" Is it wrong to say if the Church (here on earth) is God's temple, then the "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;" , spiritually represent the people we bring into the church? They are the building blocks of the temple. Is this correct so far?
I Peter 2:4 "To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." I am trying to be very careful in what I say. Is everything Biblical so far?
So the true believers (the Elect)are typified by gold, silver, and precious stones. They are the "lively" (living) stones who are built up into a spiritual house. On the other hand, the wood, hay, and stubble must relate to the church members who are still unsaved. Fire does not destroy gold or silver, but fire will utterly destroy wood, hay, and stubble.
From this line of thinking could we say our churches on earth consist of true born again believers (Elect)and unsaved christians who probably think they are saved. Well in this case someone stated no catholics are saved, they have to wait to the end. (I'm not sure where this comes from)
Dosen't the Bible speak about the true believers (God's Temple) as the Lord's bride? Revelations 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."
This verse is speaking of the whole body of believers, throughout eternity future we are called the new Jerusalem. In Galatians 4:25- 26, the Bible speaks of a present Jerusalem: "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. " This verse tels us there is a spiritual Jerusalem that is above and it's free. Is everything biblical so far?
The spiritual Jerusalem was likened to the Bride of Christ Rev:21:2, which is the Spiritual Church. The context shows that the Jerusalem which now is consists of individuals who are still in spiritual bondage. That is, they have not become saved even though God calls them a Jerusalem. But these verses also speak of a Jerusalem above. This Jerusalem can only relate to those who have become saved.
We read in Ephesians 2:4-6:"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we [the Elect] were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
You noticed in this verse it is in the past tense as if God already completed the salvation of his Elect. Who says we are not saved until the end? If we do not get saved before we die then on judgement day we will automatically be going to HELL! Believe me you will know if God has saved you. And there is no work of ourselves that we can possibly do to get saved. God does all the work! We give God all the glory for this incredible gift!
In principle, the true believers are seated in the heavenlies with Christ even though we live on this earth serving as ambassadors of Christ. Thus, the body of believers on earth is made up of Jerusalem above (those who are saved), and Jerusalem which now is (those who think they are saved but are still in bondage to sin). These individuals make up the churches and congregations. Therefore, the churches are spiritually called Jerusalem.
We see a parallel as God speaks of the churches as a temple and as Jerusalem. In the temple those who were saved were called gold, silver, and precious stones. They are called the Jerusalem above. However, also in the temple there are those who are called wood, hay, and stubble. They are called the Jerusalem which now is. The churches are also called Judea because Jerusalem was the capital of Judea.
We read in Luke 21:20-21:"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. "
If God is giving you eyes to see you will understand that This command is for those true believers (the elect) to get out of the churches when we see the abomination of desolation sitting in the Holy place. The Bible give us clues to identify the abomination of desolation which is Satan ruling inside the churches and congregations. This is the period of great tribulations.
Please do not delete this response because I want Eugene to check out these verses, and perhaps he can tell me if they are saying something else.
Peace.....
-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 05, 2003.
Hello CS:You said, "Can I begin by saying that the Bible in it entirety is God's personality or God's foundation? Is this biblical? John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." So we know Jesus Christ came down to confirm the Word, or the Bible. Is this correct so far?"
JESUS is the Word. He did not come down to confirm the Word, because HE is the Word -- the Word was made flesh and dwelt around us.
Then you said again, "So if the Lord Jesus Christ Is the Word (BIBLE) that became flesh, and HE laid the foundation which we build on, is it wrong to say the Bible should be everybodys' foundation? Now the verse tells us we build with "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;" Is it wrong to say if the Church (here on earth) is God's temple, then the "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;" , spiritually represent the people we bring into the church? They are the building blocks of the temple. Is this correct so far?"
Your premise is wrong, CS. Jesus is not the Bible nor did he come to confirm the Bible.
You say, "We read in Ephesians 2:4-6:"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we [the Elect] were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
You noticed in this verse it is in the past tense as if God already completed the salvation of his Elect. Who says we are not saved until the end? If we do not get saved before we die then on judgement day we will automatically be going to HELL! Believe me you will know if God has saved you. And there is no work of ourselves that we can possibly do to get saved. God does all the work! We give God all the glory for this incredible gift!"
David, the true tenses are actually past present and future. In other words, we are "BEING" saved. We are "being delivered," we are "being sanctified," we are "being justified." If you have a Strong's concordance that might be helpful to you.
You said, "We read in Luke 21:20-21:"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. "
This prophesy was literally fullfilled in 70 A.D. when Jerusalem was destroyed by the gentiles and great persecution broke out. It is interesting that the believers at that time hearkened to Christ's words recognizing what was happening and did flee to the mountains. Many many were saved.
CS, you are over spiritualizing the texts of everything you cited, and pouring your own meanings into them. I really could not respond to the rest of your commentary because I simply couldn't follow it.
I believe you have a sincere heart, CS, and I understand your paranoia over today's churches. I wish you would spend more time studying the writings of the Church Fathers. I think that would help you a great deal in interpreting scripture. ccel.org will give you the writings of all of ancestors in the faith. Very helpful indeed.
I gotta run. Maybe someone else can answer the rest of your post.
Love,
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 05, 2003.
"Do you believe the Bible is God's breathed words to us?"A: Yes. We know this because the Church has infallibly proclaimed it to be so. There is no other way anyone can know this truth.
"If you say yes, so what's the problem? How do you know the Holy Spirit is not working in me when I state some of these scriptures?"
A: It does not take any guidance of the Holy Spirit to state scriptures. Satan himself can quote scriptures, and it isn't by any action of the Holy Spirit. However, when you offer personal interpretations of the scriptures you have quoted, that's when it become plainly obvious that the Holy Spirit is not working in you, for the private interpretations you offer are in direct conflict with doctrinal truth that has been affirmed and guaranteed by God Himself. HE said that what the Church binds on earth is bound in Heaven. YOU say that your personal interpretations of the Bible overrule that which is bound in Heaven. HE said that one who listens to the Church listens to Him. YOU say "don't listen to the Church, listen to ME". God said that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church to all truth. YOU say God lied. The Holy Spirit guides YOU, not the Church, to all truth. Now really, who do you expect us to pay attention to - You? Or God?
"John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." So we know Jesus Christ came down to confirm the Word, or the Bible. Is this correct so far?"
A: No, this is not correct so far. First of all, John 1:14 is not a reference to the Bible. It is a reference to the person of Jesus Christ Himself. HE, not the Bible, is the Word referred to here. It was HE, not the Bible, who was made flesh and dwelt among us. Secondly, how could Jesus have come down to "confirm the Bible" when the Bible didn't exist yet? Yes, in coming to earth as man He confirmed the Old Testament prophecies concerning His coming. But Jesus came to earth (1) to gain our salvation by His death and Resurrection; (2) to found a Church, so that all men might have access to the fullness of truth concerning the salvation He gained for us; and (3) to reveal to that One Church the fullness of truth which He wanted all men to have access to. His mission had nothing to do with writing or confirming a book.
"So if the Lord Jesus Christ Is the Word (BIBLE)that became flesh, and HE laid the foundation which we build on, is it wrong to say the Bible should be everybodys' foundation?"
A: Yes, it is wrong, because (1) Jesus is not the Bible. He is the founder of the Church which gave us the Bible. And (2) the Bible itself says the Church is the foundation. Why do you insist on ignoring this straightforward statement from the Word of God itself? The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Bible is NOT. So says the Word of God!
"Now the verse tells us we build with "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;" Is it wrong to say if the Church (here on earth) is God's temple, then the "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;" , spiritually represent the people we bring into the church? They are the building blocks of the temple. Is this correct so far?"
A: That content of that interpretation is not completely contrary to Christian teaching. However, the various materials we use to build are generally considered to be our works - what we DO in building the temple - not the workers who are involved in building it. Notice it says WE build with these various materials. WE do not build by using other people. We build by living as God calls us to live, as members of His Body.
"So the true believers (the Elect) are typified by gold, silver, and precious stones. They are the "lively" (living) stones who are built up into a spiritual house. On the other hand, the wood, hay, and stubble must relate to the church members who are still unsaved. Fire does not destroy gold or silver, but fire will utterly destroy wood, hay, and stubble."
A: Yes, in this passage the people themselves are referred to as living stones, with Christ as the builder.
"From this line of thinking could we say our churches on earth consist of true born again believers (Elect) and unsaved christians who probably think they are saved."
A: No, we could not say this. We could say that the True Church of Jesus Christ includes those who are responding to God's plan of salvation; those who are responding less completely; and those who are responsding little if at all. The Bible refers to this as the wheat and the chaff, which will be separated into the saved and the unsaved AFTER the harvest is gathered into the barn. ALL of these people are elected to be saved. ALL of them are currently unsaved, but some of them are taking steps toward being saved, and some of them are not.
"Well in this case someone stated no catholics are saved, they have to wait to the end. (I'm not sure where this comes from)"
A: No, I didn't state that no Catholics are saved. I stated that no PEOPLE are saved while they are still alive on this earth. Where this comes from is the teaching of the Church, as recorded in the Holy Bible. "the one who endures to the end, he WILL BE saved" (Matthew 24:13) (And several other equally clear passages which I have shared previously)
"The spiritual Jerusalem was likened to the Bride of Christ Rev:21:2, which is the Spiritual Church. The context shows that the Jerusalem which now is consists of individuals who are still in spiritual bondage. That is, they have not become saved even though God calls them a Jerusalem. But these verses also speak of a Jerusalem above. This Jerusalem can only relate to those who have become saved."
A: Yes, that is all correct; but it isn't nearly as complicated as you want to make it. The spiritual Jerusalem is the Church. The earthly Jerusalem is the earth. You are right that the earthly Jerusalem consists of individuals who have not yet become saved (another clear confirmation that no-one is saved while still on earth). You are also right in saying that the New Jerusalem can only relate to those who have been saved. It is, of course, Heaven, and only the saved are there.
"We read in Ephesians 2:4-6:"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we [the Elect] were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: You noticed in this verse it is in the past tense as if God already completed the salvation of his Elect"
A: Of course it is in the past tense. He is speaking about the conversion experience of a group of people who have already turned to Christ. If I told you about my coming to Christ, I would also speak in the past tense, since it happened a good many years ago. However, he is simply speaking about their being formed as a Christian community, not about their final salvation. The same writer also told them they must "work out their salvation in fear and trembling". He told them the prize would be awarded AFTER they finished running the race. He said that he himself was working toward not be eliminated from salvation. Passages like these make it perfectly clear that Paul didn't consider himself or anyone else to be already saved. Ignoring such clear passages while trying to twist a more obscure passage to fit into your particular denominational beliefs is simply dishonest.
"Who says we are not saved until the end?"
A: The Bible does - repeatedly. And the pillar and foundation of truth does. What more could you need?
"If we do not get saved before we die then on judgement day we will automatically be going to HELL!"
A: If we do not remain faithful to Jesus Christ until we die, then we will forfeit salvation, just as the Bible states, and the only alternative to salvation is Hell. But if we live our earthly lives in the smug assurance that we already hold a free pass to heaven, instead of following the Biblical instructions to work out our salvation day by day, we may find when we reach the end that God places more emphasis on what His Word says than on denominational traditions of men.
"And there is no work of ourselves that we can possibly do to get saved. God does all the work! We give God all the glory for this incredible gift!"
A: Amen! Salvation is a free gift of God which cannot be earned or merited - solid Catholic teaching there! But any offered gift has to be accepted before it truly becomes a personal gift. And the means of accepting the free gift of salvation are repeatedly spelled out in the teaching of the Church, including the New Testament. Faith and good works are the necessary means of accepting the gift. Show up for judgment with faith alone, or with works alone, and salvation will not be yours. So says the Word of God.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 05, 2003.
Speaking of The Book of Luke, CS...Jesus said this would happen in ONE generation. This is absolutely correct because the destruction of the Temple and the entire leveling of the city of Jerusalem by fire, occurred in AD 70...the same generation, which according to Jewish customs at the time was 40 years.
Ya see, Jesus died in the 30's and one generation later (40 years) in AD 70, it happened. Just like Jesus said it would. That’s why he was really sad about Jerusalem and made the other comments about it from the Mount of Olives.
Also during the destruction of Jerusalem at that time, there were some "elect" Jews...meaning Christian converts, that did, in fact, escape to the hills. The church building that they had made (at the site of the upper room) was one of the only buildings left intact after that...as a sign from God.
So, CS--you are absolutely correct about the foretold events that are stated in Luke, just wrongly interpreting them. This is not Catholic lore...this information that is available in history books, that have no religious bias. Don't take my word for it, look it up.
-- Victoria (tecdork99@pvfnet.com), July 05, 2003.
CS, --It hurts me to say this to you, and other well- intentioned ''Christians''.Do you believe the Bible is God's breathed words to us? If you say yes, so what's the problem? How do you know the Holy Spirit is not working in me when I state some of these scriptures? I Corinthians 3:16, we read:"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?''
The Bible is NOT God's breathed word to a heretic. He gave His Word to the Church founded by Jesus Christ, not to false prophets.
You ask: How do I know the Holy Spirit is not working in you? --You are outside the true faith, that's how. You just don't realise it yet. The words, ''Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? are true in the epistle. Paul was writing to the faithful of the only exixting Church. The Church of the Apostles.
Naturally, he would say that; they were all Catholic saints! You aren't.
You followed the false teachings of MEN; and therefore the bible is a closed door to you. Why should the Holy v Spirit enlighten, or indwell the declared enemies and opponents of Christ's Church??? Until you come back into the Church of your blessed ancestors, you will NOT have the Holy Spirit. I'm sorry.
You'd better contemplate this before you delude yourself some more, reading a Bible you'll never understand.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 05, 2003.
"I find it hard to forget Jake perceived a Catholic soul at Holy Mass as a ''moron'', because he addressed the congregation in a cheerful way…Jake said he got up and left the celebration, because the Moron had exhausted his patience. Christian, indeed! ''All the Catholic Morons!'' Is that your song?"-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 21, 2003.
"I want to laugh when I see the dumb bumper sticker which says: ''Caution! Rapture is coming and this car will be without a driver!'' Only a moron would stick that on his car bumper! Yes; MORON.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 02, 2003.
-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), July 06, 2003.
Hi, Jake:
Did I borrow a term out of your lexicon? Shame on me.I found it apt for ridiculing somebody outside the Catholic faith (which makes him foolish or ignorant.)
You employed it on your own brethren. I hope God will not hold you accountable. BTW; today is Sunday. I know you will necessarily have fasted (no food no water) from last midnight till Holy Communion; a fine idead. You may not yet have gone to Mass, however. And so; let me ask you as a brother: Pray for holy mother Church before God's altar???
I have no argument we all should; just as always, united in Christ. I'll be praying.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 06, 2003.
I found it apt for ridiculing somebody outside the Catholic faith (which makes him foolish or ignorant.)That's not ecumenical.
-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), July 07, 2003.
You seem on safe ground, from the objective POV. Let's hope you now give up the usual practices. I was laughing at a silly bumper sticker. Only indirectly at the car owners. You were pouring scorn on the Catholic Church. To me you were altogether reprehensible. I still think so; our celebration of the Holy Eucharist is not fair game for elitists. If you can't control your disgust take it somewhere else, please.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 07, 2003.