Hello,

My wife received a small bottle of St. Joseph's Oil a few years ago. Recently, she has been experiencing health issues and has been rubbing the oil on the affected area of her body plus has been praying for the health issue to be resolved.

She has nearly depleted her supply of the oil. Can someone advise where I can order St. Joseph's Oil?

Thank You....Mike

-- Michael Liantonio (mliantonio@netzero.net), July 04, 2003

Answers

Jmj

Hello, Michael.
I suggest that you start by contacting the place where "St. Joseph's Oil" started (through the miraculous work of Blessed Andre Bessette):

Oratory of St. Joseph of Mont-Royal
(Oratoire Saint-Joseph du Mont-Royal)
3800, chemin Queen Mary
Montréal, Québec, H3V 1H6
Tél. : (514) 733-8211
Téléc. : (514) 733-9735 [FAX?]
Courriel : joseph@osj.qc.ca [E-mail]
Click here.
I was there in 2000. Make the trip yourself, if you can.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), July 04, 2003.

Michael Liantonio

Why do you want to buy some oil? I am learning so much about the catholic faith, it is mind boggling! Is this better mister moderator. Why does the moderator delete whatever they feel like in this forum? Perhaps they are hiding the truth from these dear people.

Do You know what verses pops in my mind everytime this forum does such wickedness?

Mark:4:15 "And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts"

People! the devil is stealing the truth from your hearts.

Matthew 13:15 "For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:"

Unless true believers depart out, nobody shall be saved!

Mr. moderator, what do you have against the scriptures?

God BLESS....

-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 05, 2003.

Dear C.S.,

You ask" Why do you want to buy some oil?" This is just one more example of your incomplete version of Christianity. The use of such sacramentals has been a prominent practice in the Christian Church - the TRUE Christian Church - from the very beginning. This is just one more example of a holy Christian practice that has been rejected by your manmade tradition, so that now you must search the Bible for passages which will seem to support your rejection of biblical truth.

"And they were casting out many demons and were ANOINTING WITH OIL many sick people and healing them." (Mark 6:13)

"You did not ANOINT MY HEAD WITH OIL, but she anointed My feet with perfume." (Luke 7:46)

"Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, ANOINTING HIM WITH OIL in the name of the Lord." (James 5:14)

How is it that you are so confused over a common practice of original Christianity like anointing with blessed oil, which is repeatedly described in the Bible?

As for "hiding the truth from these dear people", these dear people, including the moderators who serve them, are Catholics, and therefore have complete access to the fullness of Christian truth. Nothing is hidden here. Such people are ready and willing to freely share the gospel of Jesus Christ, the full gospel, authoritatively interpreted. There is nothing you could offer such people that is not already offered in the one true Church established by Jesus Christ for all men. Anything different that you preach simply stands in condemnation of your incomplete, manmade religious tradition, and the many elements of Christian truth which you have rejected.

Do You know what verse pops in my mind everytime such peddlers of pseudochristianity invade this forum? This prophetic description of Protestantism ...

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths." (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

Mr. moderator, what do you have against the scriptures?

Why, as a Catholic, would I have anything against a collection of inspired Catholic writings defined and compiled by my own Church? It is the perversion of the Sacred Scriptures which Catholics are against, as each conflicting Protestant sect tries in vain to twist the Word of God into a form which will appear to support their own private collection of manmade doctrines. They can't agree with one another on what constitutes the truth, yet each of them, from the ungodly morass of doctrinal chaos in which they are trapped, tries to tell the Church of the Living God that their own personal version of biblical interpretation is the right one, and that the 2,000 year old doctrines of the holy Christian faith are wrong. We can only put up with this silliness for so long. We allow you to stay with us for a while, in the hope that some spark of grace may allow you to recognize genuine truth when you hear it. And perhaps a seed has been planted in spite of the walls of manmade tradition you have erected between yourself and the truth of God's Word. But for the present that seed cannot grow, because ...

"Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them." (Matthew 13:15)

You have had the opportunity to present your beliefs. You have been offered powerful testimony which clearly demonstrates the inaccuracy and untenability of those manmade beliefs. Therefore I suggest that you visit some forum where others, like yourself, practice the 16th century tradition of designing doctrine by reading Catholic writings and guessing what they might mean. As long as you stay here, you will simply encounter frustration as you come face to face with pure, unshakable and irrefutable truth, time after time.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 05, 2003.

Paul

This topic may be a little of a challenge and I wouldn't mind searching the scriptures to tackle this. You have to understand that God speaks in parables and every miracle and historical event has a spiritual meaning that deals with salvation. God chose to put these specific scenes in the Bible to teach us something about the kingdom of God or Jesus Christ. The healing that God wants us to know is spiritual healing. When we come with the Gospel we are giving people an opportunity to become saved. The Bible is also referred to as the bread of life or living water. We are to feed people with the Gospel and hope that God will give them a new soul.

Romans:10:17 "so then Faith comes by hearing, [God first needs to give us ears to hear] and hearing by the word of God" [we must proclaim the word faithfully. This is how we cast out devils, by proclaiming the Word faithfully.

If we look at James 5:14: "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord."

The Greek word for "sick" in this verse is aesthenio, which is used to speak of any kind of illness, physical, mental, or spiritual illness. Why do they call for the elders of the church? The elders are not doctors; they do not come with medicine. The elders come with spiritual counseling. If someone is very sick and maybe dying, the elders come to check on the spiritual condition of that individual.

This will be shown to be true as we go on. "Let them pray over him." We read in Mark 9:29 "And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting."

In other words, they pray that this person might be saved."Anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord" is not talking about physical anointing because you could pour all the oil you want on someone and it will not change anything. The oil that God is speaking about is the oil of the Holy Spirit. If we bring the Gospel to someone, and he becomes a believer, he is anointed with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes into his life and brings him salvation, and this is proven by the next verse,

verse 15:"And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him."

"Save" has to do with salvation, but the word "sick" here is a different word from the word "sick" used in verse 14, which could refer to physical, mental, or spiritual illness. This word "sick" is used very rarely in the Bible, and it is the Greek word kamno. With a concordance we can search these words. When this word is used, it has nothing to do with physical illness; it has to do with spiritual illness, spiritual fatigue. If this person is sick spiritually, and we are all spiritually sick before we are saved, and if it is God's intention to save this person, then as the elders visit, there will be salvation for him.

This is proven as it goes along. "The Lord shall raise him up" means that he has been raised with Christ. The next phrase guarantees that we are on the right track. "And if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." Well, everybody is a sinner, but to have our sins forgiven means that we have become saved. It occurs at the moment we are saved.

Thus, if a man is physically or mentally ill, or whatever the illness might be, the elders come to him, and they bring the Gospel. Hopefully, through the Gospel, he will be saved. This person might die the same night, or he might die tomorrow, or he might become well again, but the elders are not there to pray for the physical health of that person. The elders are there to administer spiritual counseling and share the Gospel with him so that hopefully, he will become saved, that is, his sins might be forgiven if he had not already become saved.

If the nature of the Gospel was that people might have physical health, it would be a terrible catastrophe because everybody finally dies, and we usually die of an illness of some kind. If the purpose of the Gospel was to give us physical health, it would be a mockery. The purpose of the Gospel is to give us a health that is infinitely more important than physical health; the purpose of the Gospel is to give us spiritual health, eternal life. If we have been given eternal life, it can never be lost. Isaiah 53 talks about the healing of our sin-sick souls.

We read in Isaiah 53:5-6:"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

When we are saved, we are healed of our sins. We were under the wrath of God because of our sins, but when we have spiritual healing, we are no longer under the wrath of God. That is a big deal!

I think this response was pretty biblical!

God Bless!!!!! May God give you wisdom

-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 05, 2003.

"The Greek word for "sick" in this verse is aesthenio, which is used to speak of any kind of illness, physical, mental, or spiritual illness. Why do they call for the elders of the church? The elders are not doctors; they do not come with medicine. The elders come with spiritual counseling. If someone is very sick and maybe dying, the elders come to check on the spiritual condition of that individual"

A: What good is spiritual counseling to a person in a coma? Are you suggesting that physical healing is purely medical, and doesn't involve God?? It seems to me that Jesus did an awful lot of physical healing. So did the Apostles. I am well aware of the relationship between physical, mental, and spiritual illness - and physical, mental, and spiritual healing. Indeed, much physical and mental illness has a spiritual component, something the medical establishment is just beginning to realize. I never indicated that I was speaking of physical healing only. Anyway, the type of healing is irrelevant here, for the question you asked concerned the use of blessed oil, and what I was addressing is the biblical concept of using blessed oil in bringing about healing - regardless of the type of healing required in any specific instance. This was and still is a common practice in Judaism, specifically mentioned about 40 times in the Old Testament. Jesus incorporated this valid sacramental into Christianity as well; otherwise the Apostles would not have used it.

"Anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord" is not talking about physical anointing because you could pour all the oil you want on someone and it will not change anything".

A: Excuse me, but the Word of God plainly says that it DOES change things! The phrase "ANOINTING WITH OIL many sick people and HEALING THEM" is an obvious reference to physical healing, and anointing with oil was instrumental in bringing about that healing. People didn't call the elders of the Church to their bedside because of sin. They called them because they were seriously ill and in danger of physical death. That doesn't mean that spiritual healing didn't occur as well. Indeed it did, since the two are intimately interconnected, and spiritual healing is often necessary before physical problems symptomatic of spiritual illness can be healed. Still, the opening statement of this passage - "Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church" - obviously refers to physical sickness.

"The oil that God is speaking about is the oil of the Holy Spirit. If we bring the Gospel to someone, and he becomes a believer, he is anointed with the Holy Spirit."

A: Good grief! The oil that God is speaking about is OIL, specifically "anointing oil", repeatedly described in the Old Testament. It contained olive oil and aromatic spices. It still does. It never ceases to amaze me how you guys come here day after day telling us "There it is, plain as can be, right there in the Word of God! Do you accept the Word of God or don't you?" Then, as soon as you are shown a statement in the Word of God which clearly contradicts your personal ideas, your first response is "the Word of God doesn't mean what it says"! Well my friend, "annointing with oil" means just one thing - "ANOINTING ... WITH ... OIL". Anyone with any concept of early Christian life would instantly recognize this sacramental sign which has been used by Christians from day one in healing - physical, mental, and spiritual. "So Moses took some of the anointing oil and some of the blood which was on the altar and sprinkled it on Aaron, on his garments, on his sons, and on the garments of his sons" (Leviticus 8:30) You really think Moses was sprinkling them with a mixture of blood and COUNSELING??

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 05, 2003.

Paul For once please, put your guards down and listen carefully. (I am saying this hummbly) God speaks in parables...... If God doesn't give eyes too see you will never understand. Before you rebuttle or get mad, listen to what I am trying to say. The Gospel is a big mystery to those who are still under bondage. Don't get offended. Ask God for understanding before you totally reject something you were never taught. If you believe the Holy Spirit is guiding you then you should have no fear in getting deceived.

A parable is an earthly story with a spiritual or heavenly meaning. I know Jesus did a ton of physical healing but God is trying to teach us something through those physical healings. If we read all of the "cerimonies or sacraments" that were done in the New Testament and try to copy them then we are just as bad as the Jews who are still under the curse of the Law.

The Jews still do all of the Old testament cerimonials laws which Christ has completed on the cross. If you want to get technical, John the Baptist was the last of the Old testament prophets who announced the Lord Jesus Christ. And John was doing water baptism. Therefore water baptism was one of the Old testament cerimonial laws.

Now when it comes to physical healing, I know God is in control of everything. God works through man in creating and discovering medicine to heal diseases and infections. It is God who gives them the wisdom in creating such medicine. God has a purpose for everything. But then again it is God who allows this medicine to work. You got to addmit, some medicine works on some people and not on others.

Think about this, what good is it to try to physically heal somebody if unexpectically they die the next day without recieving salvation? If they die without being saved then they will be going to hell. Or how about giving some poor souls some food and money so they can actually live just a few more days, and not doing anything for their souls? I am not saying not to feed these people, but we should be concerned with their salvation.

Think about this, how could a baby get saved inside the womb if he/she don't even know what's going on? But yet God can save that baby inside the womb. We know this because it is God who does all the work of salvation. It is God who gives people spiritually ears to hear. Our job is to proclaim the Gospel faithfully and leave the saving up to God! So a man in a comma can still be witnessed to.

You can play some Christ centered music, or have the Gospel read to him/her. If that person is one of the Elects, believe me God will use that activity to save that person in a comma.

Why is it that some people spiritualize the Bible whenever convenient to them? The entire Bible is dripping with hidden spiritual salvation messages. Every verse! Once you understand the salvation of the Bible, God continues to reveal this truth in all the scriptures. That is why I am positive in what I say, especially pre-electin. Discovering these hidden spiritual truths on salvation, is how I know the Bible is authentic, written by Almighty God. This is one of His trademarks or signatures. And this is how I know which books belong in the Bible.

My friend I am so Grateful to God for this undeserving gift, I can not take one bit of credit. All I know is that I am a filthy sinner who deserves to go to hell. I don't know why God chose me as an Elect, but now I owe my life to HIM in making sure other people know what I know. And I enjoy doing it. It is a great honor and privlege to be an Ambasador for the Lord Jesus Christ!

May God give you wisdom...................God Bless

-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 06, 2003.

As usual, CS;

You don't know what you're talking about. Your head is stuffed with nonsense. What you think you're learning from reading the Bible is only a delusion.

We want you to have the truth. The truth is in the Catholic faith, not your private interpretations of the scriptures. You presume to know, and don't know.

One point and then goodbye. Our Lord spoke in parables to His disciples. You're mistaken though, to expect everything in the Bible to have a parabolic adaptation that proves your errors. This is a self-serving presumption. Error is error; and you live in self-delusion. Read all you want; it's only self-delusion while you remain a heretic.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 06, 2003.

I am well aware of parables and their significance. They were symbolic stories told by Jesus Himself which served as detailed analogies through which He expressed deeper realities. When a biblical writer states that the Apostles anointed people with oil, this is not a parable. It is a direct statement made by an eye witness, of something the Apostles actually did. Even if the Bible didn't repeatedly state that this sacramental was widely used in the early Christian Church, we would still know that it was, for it is a part of Apostolic Tradition, having been performed by every generation of Christians since the Apostles. Certainly such sacramentals often had symbolic meaning, but the fact of the anointing is not symbolic. They dipped real fingers into real blessed oil, and anointed real sick people, invoking real graces from God, which produced real results. It still happens today in REAL Christianity.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 06, 2003.

I agree with Paul. One more point: in James, he is clearly giving instructions to the faithful.

"Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, ANOINTING HIM WITH OIL in the name of the Lord." (James 5:14)

Why would he speak in parables? Wouldn't it be clearer just to tell them, "counsel the sinners among you"? Do you actually think that the men receiving the letter would see your "spiritual" explanation as the only, ordinary and natural one?

Remember, these are guys who were familiar with Old Testament rites and practices.

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), July 06, 2003.

You guys are right! I am not saying theses events were parables. They definitely did happen. What I am trying to say is that God is teaching us spiritual truths on the healings recorded. These historical events were purposely chosen to teach us something on salvation. In a way they are like historical parables. Every verse in the Bible is dripping with these hidden truths. If we do not see them, we are still spiritually blind. This is God's authentic trademark. From the Old Testemant to the New Testement in its entirety reveal this. It is ammazing!!!! This is one of God's signatures on HIS incredible infallible infinite WORD. That is why God tells us to compare scripture with scripture.

God Bless. Check out the Bible the next time you read it. Some are easy to detect and some God will not reveal until you are ready!

-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 06, 2003.

The Bible has to recognized as not a text written by God, but a library of books written by men, inspired by God.

The Church fathers collected the books and decided which books should be included as teaching texts.

Who do you think decided what the Bible should be?

The Bible is very, very, very important, but it should not be the end all.

For example, I want to teach someone how to be a lawyer. I assemble a group of books that help me teach. Black's law dictioary, the penal code, the code of criminal procedure, the code of civil procedure, etc.

The books are all irreplaceable, but just reading the books without interpretation will not teach someone HOW to be lawyer.

Every Church, whether they call it tradition or not, has it.

Sola Scriptura doesn't pass muster.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), July 07, 2003.

To Paul, first: You called the sacrament of Extreme Unction a sacramental, but it's really one of the seven sacraments. It is a grace-producing work of Jesus Christ through His Holy Church. Sacramentals are not sacraments but ''actions or objects (as in the Holy Rosary) of ecclesiastical origin that serve to express or increase devotion.'' (Merriam-Webster Dictionary).

To Christian Soldier.
You say: ''--I am trying to say is that God is teaching us spiritual truths on the healings recorded. These historical events were purposely chosen to teach us something on salvation. In a way they are like historical parables. Every verse in the Bible is dripping with these hidden truths. If we do NOT see them, we are still spiritually blind. This is God's authentic trademark. From the Old Testemant to the New Testement in its entirety reveal this.''

Reply: --I underscore ''If we do not see them.'' Because you need to come to the realisation, CS; that for us to ''see them'' with the help of the Holy Spirit, we must be faithful to the Church of Jesus Christ. To understand them, not just build theories around them, we have to KNOW how Christ works through the method, not just the ''hidden messages'' which you selectively root out of the written Word.

The Word works through Christ's One True Church. You will not find anything ''dripping'' from a biblical passage with spiritual validity, --unless you follow Christ's apostles. They give you everything; the Bible only publishes. It was published but not explained.

The apostles entrusted their explanation, their truth, to the Church. Not to freelancers and heretical ''scholars''. Human wisdom to God is folly; and private interpretation of the Bible mainly gives you verses ''dripping'' with man- made pronouncements and errors.

That's one reason false Bible scholars like Rev. Jim Jones of Jonestown, a murderer- suicide, are ''dripping''-- for eternity in the sulphur and brimstone called Hell. They distorted Holy Scripture.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 07, 2003.

Dear Eugene,

I did not call the Sacrament of the Sick a sacramental. I called the oil used in the sacrament, as well as in various non-sacramental applications, a sacramental.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 07, 2003.

John

You said, "The Bible is very, very, very important, but it should not be the end all". Do all Catholics feel this way about the BIBLE?

I truly pray the answer is no. If that is how Catholics feel about the Bible then why bother with it. We can pick and choose what we like and ignore what we don't want to hear. The problem is that all the New Testament churches, (not isolating the Catholic church) has failed the biggest test. God is always testing to see how faithful we are. Adam and Eve failed, Ancient Israel failed, and now all the churches failed God's test.

The more I stick around and understand what your church teaches the more you bring the end time verses to light. I can't believe what I hear in this forum. I am Shocked!!! Doesn't anybody fear GOD?

The Bible in its entirety, which is the OLD Testament and the New Testament, is perfect with no contradictions, has this cohesiveness and all these hidden spiritual truths are harmonious. This is God's signature and this is how I know which books belong in the Bible.

Once we add books that are not inspired by God, then it isn't the Bible anymore. Adding to the Bible is a grievous sin. Every single word and phrase came out of God's mouth. When we read the Bible we should read it as if God is speaking. So if Apostle Paul wrote a letter, we read it as if God is speaking through Apostle Paul.. "Holy men wrote as the Holy Spirit moved them".

This forum is the first time I had to ever argue about if, "God is the pillar and ground of truth", or "the Church is the pillar and ground of truth". We shouldn't even think twice what the answer is. How could anybody reject God being all truth and all authority? The WORD became flesh. Therefore God’s telling us the WORD, BIBLE, is the Voice of GOD. I found a fluent Greek speaker, born in Grease, with a Greek BIBLE who explained to me that, in the Greek grammar, that verse can go both ways. How do you respond? You tell me she doesn't know GREEK. That was your answer!. Well I know another Greek person, that I am trying to get a hold of,. I will give you a response what she tells me.

If the church is the pillar and ground of truth then the churches are claiming they are god. Simple as that; So I guess the abomination of desolation is sitting in the Holy place ruling!

Peace…….

-- C.S. (embasador333@yahoo.com), July 08, 2003.

"If the church is the pillar and ground of truth then the churches are claiming they are god. Simple as that."

A: If the church is NOT the pillar and ground of truth then WHY does the WORD OF GOD say that it is? (1 Tim 3:15) Simple as that.

Don't confuse the "pillar and ground" of truth with the SOURCE of truth. God is the source of truth. He is the builder of the building called truth. The pillars and foundation are not the building. They are simply the necessary supports of the building, which give it form and structural integrity, maintaining its correct shape, and preventing it from becoming warped and deformed, and ultimately collapsing. That is what the Church does for the truth. And that is why the Word of God identifies the Church alone as the pillar and foundation (or ground) of the truth.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 08, 2003.

We are conversing with a bibliolater, Paul. CS places the Bible over and above Christ's Church, as if the Bible were God. He worships the words of scripture. That's why he's ''shocked'' no one else is on his knees before the Bible!

If he had found one verse, just one-- in the SAME Bible---- where we are told to read the Bible & forget the Church. Forget the saints, their lessons which ARE the Gospel of Christ. To adore henceforth only the Bible and nothing but the Bible! One verse, CS!!!

He thinks that's God's commandment. He has imagined the Bible is truly God on earth. That's plain idolatry. Only the Catholic Church reveres and follows the Bible faithfully. Her teaching and the true meanings of scripture never deviate. CS means well. But he's a lost sheep.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 09, 2003.

Just a second, C.S.

You believe the Bible is God, literally?

The Bible is the Word of God; The Word of God is Jesus; Therefore, the Bible is Jesus;

Since the Bible is Jesus; Jesus is God; Therefore the Bible is God???

I keep getting that idea from your posts.

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), July 09, 2003.

Dear Catherine Ann,

I am getting the same impression about our friend the Christian Soldier. Dear C.S. do you believe that God exists outside of the Bible?

Do we fear God? Of course we fear God!!! Without that fear, we would all be atheists or agnostics and we would be succombing to the rampant hedonism and amoralism in our society.

You accuse us of being one of the New Testament Churches. Why do you ignore all the posts in this and other threads that show how Catholics follow the Old Testament as well?

You ask us to back up our faith with Scripture. And we have. We have even cited from the King James Bible. And yet these verses are ignored. The facts of history are ignored.

Another question for you, brother C.S. - it is apparent that you have a belief in God, but do you have faith? It seems that before you accept anything, you need proof. Everything must be tested first through Scripture. What if Jesus walked this earth tomorrow? Would you put Him to the test to see if Scripture supports Jesus returning on July 10, 2003? Or would you allow your heart to recognize Jesus and follow Him? As Scripture has it, you shall not put the Lord God to the test.

Sometimes, I think we try to make things so complicated. It is so easy!! Jesus to us that His yoke was easy and his burden light. He told us that if we live in Him we shall not die, but live. He told us not to let our hearts be troubled, but to have faith in God and have faith in Him.

C.S. do you fear God, or do you fear the end times? So many people from all Christian and non-Christian denominations seem to fear the end times. They focus on Revelation, they practice numerology to justify when things will happen, they live waiting for the world to end. What is there to fear? We had a thread on the Rapture. I say arguing about the Rapture is totally irrelevent. Why? Because if we put our faith in God, and we put our trust in God, and if we do our best to live our lives in God's Grace, then there is nothing to fear. God will take care of us. Read Psalm 23. What is there to fear if God is by our side?

Pax et Bonum.

-- Thomas (tcdzomba@excite.com), July 09, 2003.

Re: my previous post.

Catherine Ann, I reread my post and it reads like I am addressing everything to you. Of course I am not.

-- Thomas (tcdzomba@excite.com), July 09, 2003.

Hard to believe we started out this thread about St. Joseph's oil. I get this great oil mixed with frankincense and myrr at the local Christian bookstore, get it blessed by a Catholic priest and use it all the time as a sacrametal. Just the smell of it is condusive to prayer.

Dear C.S. .. regarding the authority of the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth, and the authority of bible interpretation... when I first gave my life over to the Lordship of Jesus and began living for Him he opened my eyes to the scriptures with an understanding I hadn't had before, causing me to hunger for the word, I couldn't get enough. But at that time I didn't have yet a broader understanding of how this Word came to us in the first place, and who it was that gave it to us. Yes, the Holy Spirit inspired men to write it, but who were these men? There's such a bigger picture, and I ask you to just step back and ask the Lord to reveal this to you. He's so much bigger then our puny minds, it's quite marvelous.

May I quote some sentences from an informative tract on the matter from "Catholic answers" publishers. They explain it well. You see before the bible was even written the church was established and flourishing, it took the people of the church to agree on which books should be allowed into the canon. A study of early Christian history shows that there was a considerable disagreement among Christians until the issue of the canon was finally settled. Some early Christians saidthe book of Revelation didn't belong in the canon. Others said Pope Clement's letter to the Corinthians {written circa A.D. 80} did belong in the new testament. There are some books like Philemon and 3 John that first off don't seem like they should've been 'inspired', there's not much doctrinal contents there.

You've never even seen the autographs [oringinals] of the 27 books of the New Testament. Nobody today has. The earliest copies of those books we possess are centuries newer then the originals.

LIKE IT OR NOT, YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE SAY-SO OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT IN FACT THOSE COPIES ARE ACCURATE, AS WELL AS HER DECISION THAT THOSE 27 BOOKS ARE THE INSPIRED NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES. {Caps mine}. You DO accept her testimony as trustworthy, or else your protestant bible would not have those 27 books...

The fact is, the only reason you and I have the new testament canon is because of the trustworthy teaching authority of the Catholic Church.

The fact is, the Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church to recognize and determine the canon of the New and Old Testaments in the Year 382 at the Council of Rome, under Pope Damasus 1. This decision was ratified again at the councils of Hippo {393} and Carthage {397 and 419}. You, my friend, accept exactly the same books of the New Testament that Pope Damasus decreed were canonical, and no others.

Furthermore, the reason you accept the books you do is that they were in the bible someone gave you when you first became a Christian. You accept them because they were handed on to you. This means you accept the canon of the New Testament that you do because of tradition, because tradition is simply what is handed on to us from those who were in the faith before us. So your knowledge of the exact books that belong in the bible, such as Philemon and 3 John, rests on tradition rather that on Scripture itself!!

C.S. let me ask you... if the bible we've received from the Catholic Church is our sole rule of faith, who's doing the interpreting? And why are there so many conflicting understandings among Evangelicals and Fundamentalists even on central doctrines that pertain to salvation? You ALL claim to be 'bible-only' Christians.. but which group is right?

The Catholic Church, the True household of the Living God, was given to us by Jesus to protect the Word, and she has for over 2000 years. I hope you get on board for the benefit of the fullness of the faith. Theresa

-- Theresa (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), July 09, 2003.

To All

No I don't think the Bible is GOD! I do believe the Bible is supernatural and when I read it, I read it as if God speaks to me. The Bible reveals the infinite perfection of God Almighty. The Bible is the only way God speaks to us today!! I believe God does raise faithful teachers who receive much wisdom. Every true born again believer has his own gift. Because God has saved me, He has given me a new soul and heart, I am a new creature. The Holy Spirit indwells me and guides me into all truth.

I admit I do not understand everything in the Bible, but because God has opened my spiritual eyes, I am able to detect false teachings and false prophets. There are a great multitude of people today with the same gift and interpretations. You are right that the churches has made a big mess with the scriptures but there are a remnant who are faithful with doctrines. This is why God is furious with the New Testament churches. They come up with all of these crazy teachings spreading spiritual fornication! This is why God is using Satan to judge the churches. God let Satan loose for a little season. (the great tribulations). Eventually all true believers will leave the churches.

Do you know why this has happened? Because there is no fear in the Lord!! No body trembles before the Word of God. If I didn't tremble before the word of God (BIBLE) then I would approach the Bible and come up with all crazy ideas. The moment I teach and spread information that is contrary to the BIBLE, it would be as if I am committting murder. So I would not blabber out ideas that I wasn't too sure of or if I haven't studied that topic. I stand firm because God continues to confirm (through the scriptures) the truths I claim in this forum.

Deuteronomy:28:58" If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;"

Psalms 2:11" Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling."

Psalms 25:14" The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant. "

Psalms 34:11 "Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD. "

Proverbs 1:7"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

I am not here to convince anybody. It is God who seeks His lost sheep! I pray there may be some Elects in this forum and God will use some of the things I say to draw them.

Peace GOD BLESS

-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 10, 2003.

Hello CS,

You wrote:

"I admit I do not understand everything in the Bible, but because God has opened my spiritual eyes, I am able to detect false teachings and false prophets."

It appears that these spiritual eyes failed you in this thread. Your ability to detect false teachings actually led you to attack a Biblical practice.

Further, you write:

"I stand firm because God continues to confirm (through the scriptures) the truths I claim in this forum."

Your "truths" could be correct interpretations...and they could also be incorrect interpretations of the Holy Bible.

Finally, you write:

"I am not here to convince anybody. It is God who seeks His lost sheep! I pray there may be some Elects in this forum and God will use some of the things I say to draw them."

Well, you might not be surprised if we Catholics see that you are the lost sheep. In the case of the practice of anointing with oil, some of the Christians here (like Paul) have brought you a little closer to truth--you're a little less lost. :-)

I realize that sometimes, Protestants who don't personally know Catholic Christians can end up holding inaccurate and prejudiced views about Catholics and their beliefs.

I recall, about a year ago, a "Bible-Christian" (here's the link) spoke about a particular Biblical commentary (New Jerome Biblical Commentary) as being "so Catholic in its interpretation that one can almost smell the incense." Ironically, every mention of incense in the New Testament (and most OT references) is licit and acceptable to God.

A pattern exists. All Catholic practices--even those that are treated with suspicion by "Bible Christians" compatible with the Holy Bible--either explicitly or implicitly.

If you believe God can communicate through the Bible, you should try to abandon your prejudices. By doing so, you may realize that there is only one Bible Church--the Catholic Church.

Reading your posts, I noticed that you came here with an "I know everything" attitude. You have adopted a somewhat more humble attitude toward the end of this thread. Humility is a virtue, and it is in short supply on the Internet. Keep it up!

God bless you,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 11, 2003.

"The Bible is the only way God speaks to us today!"

A: That is utter nonsense. Among those who believe that, there is widespread contradiction in beliefs. That fact alone should indicate to any thinking person that God is NOT speaking to them through the Bible, because God doesn't contradict Himself. And among those who DON'T accept that ridiculous premise, there is unity in the fullness of unchanging truth for 2,000 years. The facts speak for themselves.

"The Holy Spirit indwells me and guides me into all truth"

A: And so says every one of the 20,000+ conflicting denominations. each claims to be right, but the facts demonstrate just how wrong they - and you - are. Please note who Jesus was speaking to when He said that the Holy Spirit would guide to all truth - the first bishops and Pope of the Church He founded - no-one else.

"because God has opened my spiritual eyes, I am able to detect false teachings and false prophets"

A: So says every one of the 20,000+ conflicting denominations - and each of them detects that all the others have the false teachings. Can't you see how ridiculous this is? If you could really detect false teachings, you would have run far away from protestantism by now. The fact that you are still in this manmade system of doctrinal chaos indicates that you can't identify false beliefs at all - and apparently can't even recognize that conflicting beliefs are false.

"but there are a remnant who are faithful with doctrines"

A: And let me guess ... YOU are a member of that remnant, and the other 20,000 are all wrong. Of course, each of them makes the same claim about you.

This is why God is furious with the New Testament churches"

A: There is only one New Testament Church - the one Jesus Christ founded for all men. The one to whom He gave full authority on earth. The one His Holy Word refers to as "the pillar and foundation of truth". The one to which He said "he who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects Me".

"Eventually all true believers will leave the churches"

A: Yes, they will, for "the churches" are unauthorized, unauthoritative, unreliable traditions of men. Only The Church will persevere until the end of time, as Jesus Himself said. And only when "the churches" complete their current ongoing process of collapse and disintegration, and all believers come back to The Church of the Living God which they have rejected, will there be the Christian unity which Jesus said would be the identifying mark of His followers.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 12, 2003.

Just an observation: Christians Soldier; 5 verses. Paul; None.

-- Mike (blank@none.com), July 12, 2003.

Catholic Rhetoric?

-- Mike (blank@none.com), July 12, 2003.

Dear Mike,

Thanks for your observation that simply throwing out Bible verses has no direct relationship to truth. You are so right! Satan himself used this method, attempting to support his own position by quoting scripture passages. (Matt 4:6) I stand on the Rock, the scriptural pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15), not on the shifting sands of personal scriptural interpretation.

Also, there is another reason for not throwing scripture at such people. They don't accept scripture as authoritative. Of course, they claim to, but in fact it is only their own personal interpretations they will accept, which makes THEM, not scripture, the final authority. So there is little purpose in telling such people what the Word of God actually says, knowing that the Word of God holds no authority for them at all when it conflicts with their personal interpretations of the Word.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 12, 2003.

Mike blank@.non is making observations: CS, 5 verses-- Paul, none. He wants to know, is Paul just making ''Catholic rhetoric''--?

Mike, did you read the five verses CS posted? He says: ''I stand firm because God continues to confirm (through the scriptures) the truths I claim in this forum.'' Does He??? Please judge for yourself;

Deuteronomy:28:58"If thou wilt not observe and do all the words of this law written in this book," (of Deuteronomy)--

Referred to the Law of Moses. Not what CS claims to ''know'' from scripture. Does CSoldier OBEY deuteronomy? Is he ritually pure, is he circumscised, does he keep the Sabbbath, celebrate Passover, or-- everything in deuteronomy? Would he take an eye for an eye? --No.

The remaining four verses you're proclaiming better than Paul's ''rhetoric''--

From the Psalms, & Proverbs; --Do nothing whatever to support Chr. Soldier's ''biblical wisdom''. The verses tell us of God's authority. What the psalmist called ''the fear of God.'' Nothing pertains to private interpretation of the scriptures. Soldier once more was giving himself a false license to teach here, quoting irrelevant verses.

Is this what you call CS, 5 verses, Paul, none??? Paul answered with wisdom. It is CS who falls back on empty versifying. Paul won. CS lost again. You ought to pay attention, Mike Blank. Read the whole argument before you post scores.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 12, 2003.

I know... I left "the churches" because God called me out of them to the true Church of Jesus...the Catholic Church.

Back to the subject of getting more oil from St. Josephs.....

I too have been privileged enough to have gone to L'Oratoire Saint- Joseph (St. Joseph's Oratory) in Montreal, as my husband and all of his family are French-Canadian--I'm American. When we visit his hometown, we always go there. The most impressive thing about OSJ is that the people built it...by their own hard work and donations, along with Brother Andrew...who was considered a simpleton and too slow to be a priest; yet, God used him. (There seems to be a pattern with God using the lowly and outcast...people that regular society deems "useless".)

Anyway....

L'Oratoire Saint-Joseph has a "gift shop" there, so you can probably telephone them and order some more oil. HOWEVER, ask if it's been blessed or not. They have a priest there to bless things if you are there in person, but they don't necessarily bless everything arbitrarily before shipping.

I'm posting their phone number, but you may have to wait for them to find someone who speaks English. Their native tongue is French, of course. (514) 733-8211. Here’s their web site: http://www.saint- joseph.org/.

Hope this helps.

P.S. (I went there as a Protestant, before I converted, and was quite impressed with the whole thing; especially the humble, true Christian faith of Brother Andrew. It made me think.)

-- Victoria (tecdork99@pvfnet.com), July 12, 2003.

Oh...I forgot...the other thing that made me think was the many, many, MANY healings that have taken place there, before AND after Brother Andrew's death. Jesus used healings to verify that he was God's Son, so that the Jewish people would believe Him, so when I see true, genuine, authenticated healings, I have to give it pause.

-- Victoria (tecdork99@pvfnet.com), July 12, 2003.

Has anybody in this forum personally been healed with oil? I want honesty please?

-- Christian Soldier (C.S) (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 13, 2003.

Think of the people who are trying to learn. You guys keep saying stuff but don't bother to say where you came up with that.

-- Mike (blank@none.com), July 13, 2003.

One is not "healed with oil". One is healed by grace. The sacraments of the Church and to a lesser degree the use of sacramentals are channels of God's grace. Anointing with oil is one element of the Sacrament of the Sick, as described in the Bible (James 5:14). The Church has always used such rites in the administration of sacraments. It is part of Apostolic Tradition, as well as being repeatedly recorded in scripture. And the Church has always been keenly aware that God, not the matter used in the sacrament, is the ultimate source of all graces and healing.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 13, 2003.

This kid is perverse. ''Has anybody in this forum personally been healed with oil? I want honesty please?''

Is it your opinion we're dishonest in this forum, CS? We can't be trusted to stick to the truth? ''I want honesty-- !''

We want an end to your boastful preaching in this Catholic forum. But you won't cease & desist. How do you justify staying where no one respects you?

All your biblical arguments are unworthy of belief. That's the kindest way to put it.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 13, 2003.

Actually, I had a car that was healed by oil once...and NOT the motor oil kind either, ha ha. It really was "healed".

It was when I was a Protestant and we were on a long trip and our car "threw a rod" as they say, so it was toast. We didn't have any money, and we were still 500 miles away from home, so we contacted a local minister for help. He literally prayed over the car and annoited it with oil. (I thought it was ridiculous at the time, but was willing to "try" anything at that point.)

We drove it all the way to our own home mechanic who then called us in astonishment two days later to ask how we had gotten the car to him because he said that the car mechanically could not have driven five miles, let alone 500 miles and he couldn't understand how it had driven at all. He said it was impossible. I don't know anything about cars, so I can't really scientifically verify that...accept for the reaction and testimony of the mechanic.???? OK...so it's no Lourdes story, but it's true! I swear, it really happened to me.

I don't know what I think about healings and oils...I was just letting our friend, Mike, know where to get some more of the St. Joseph's oil, if he wishes.

Actually, to the person who asked if anyone has every really been healed with oil: that's a great question and I'd like to know the answer myself! Why doesn't he or she look that up and do some research, and then report back to the forum. I'm sure everyone would be interested.

-- Victoria (tecdork99@pvfnet.com), July 13, 2003.

Dear C.S.

You seem to talk like one of those vitriolic Pentecoastals like Jimmy Swaggert, always trying to attack the true church.

Lets make it clear once and for all... THIS IS A CATHOLIC FORUM AND WE WILL NEVER USE THE IDEA OF "SOLA SCRIPTURA" EVER.

The use of Oil is an apostolic tradition passed down from the ages to the present. The oil doesn't heal but represents the pouring of the Holy Spirit and his soothing healing power onto that peron.

-- Andrew Swampillai (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), July 22, 2003.

Hi Victoria, I like your story about the car being 'healed' with oil. God is so kind, He will 'heal' our cars like that if He sees fit and we have the need.

Regarding your question about healing with oils,I'm sure it happens quite often. As our brother, Paul, has rightly said, it's not the oil that heals, it is the Lord Jesus Who still does the actual healing. We, and the use of blest oil, are just the channels {instraments} He can use.

During Catholic charismatic prayer meetings in which the gifts of the Holy Spirit are manifested, often there is time set aside for healing prayers. Prayer teams will use blest oil as a sacramental, praying for people who request prayers, often times for healing. There are places of great faith where miracles and physical healings occur, but it's been my experience usually to see inner healing occur, emotional and spiritual healings that take place over longer periods of time.The use of blest oil is not necessary, as the Lord may see fit to heal someone without it.So really the question "has anyone been healed by oil' doesn't quite make sense on its own, the healing may take place, oil or not,either way, it's the Lord who does the healing. Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), July 24, 2003.