Issue Date: September/October 1995

By Rick Jones

The headline on the front cover of the July, 1995 Charisma magazine read, "Catholics and Protestants, Can We Walk Together?"

Several articles inside suggest that, yes, we can. But the Bible reveals many reasons why true Christians have never, and will never, be able to walk together with Roman Catholics.

A primary reason is the Roman Catholic doctrine which declares all non-Catholics to be hell-bound sinners. No, you will never hear these words from the Catholic Public Relations people. On the contrary, they will quickly deny it, labeling the accuser as a divisive troublemaker. However, the 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church, the official source of Roman Catholic doctrine, proclaims:

"For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained." Pg. 215, #816 (emphasis added)

Could the Catholic position be any plainer? The fact that many Catholics aren't aware of this doctrine changes nothing. I remember a recent phone conversation with a rather knowledgeable Catholic lady. When I mentioned this Catholic doctrine, she screeched: "The Catholic church doesn't believe that anymore!" But they do. The most current Catechism reassures us that:

"…all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: …Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." Pg. 224, #846 (emphasis added)

This is not a new Catholic doctrine. Previous catechisms have taught the same. Here is a quote from the 1949 Baltimore Catechism:

Question: "Are all obliged to belong to the Catholic Church in order to be saved?" Answer: "All are obliged to belong to the Catholic Church to be saved." (New Baltimore Catechism, No. 3, Pg. 93, #166)

Rest assured, the Catholic church does NOT want you reading quotes like these. The last document they want you investigating is the official source of Catholic doctrine, the Catechism.

They would rather have you learn Catholic doctrine from their professionally trained representatives who are appearing on Christian TV and Christian radio. They hope your opinions about Catholicism will be derived from propaganda pieces like the one in the July, 1995 Charisma magazine.

Salvation through the Catholic church is but one of a host of doctrines that will forever divide true Protestants from Roman Catholics. Other Protestants may disagree, but I could never walk together with a church that publicly acknowledges me as a brother in Christ, but whose official doctrine condemns me as a lost sinner.

I could not walk together with a church that contends that faith in a church is necessary for salvation when the Bible declares that salvation is a free gift of God through Jesus Christ alone. (See Rom. 6:23, Acts 4:12.)

I could never walk together with a church that would ask me to deny the words of Jesus Christ in John 6:47: "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

Can Protestants walk together with Roman Catholics? Only if the Protestants are willing to forsake the cardinal doctrines of their faith and deny the Holy Scriptures.



-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 07, 2003

Answers

"For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, THAT THE FULLNESS OF THE MEANS OF SALVATION CAN BE OBTAINED."

Yes, it does HAVE THE FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH. 2,000 years of riches stored in its treasury, the traditions of our forefathers, of which the Protestant Reformation threw out. Protestants are now left with denominations that change with the tide, from board meeting vote to board meeting vote, spawning new groups all along the way.

Gail

P.S. As to the rest of the garbage you posted, David, that's exactly what it is -- GARBAGE! Charisma magazine . . . Hah! Is that the best you could do? That pentecostal rag that promotes every HERETIC WITHIN PROTESTANTISM . . .? Oh PLEASE, give me a break!!!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 05, 2003.

You see, that is the probelm with your view, you make catholicism one (which is not, so many different kinds of catholicism) and group anything not Catholic into this word called "Protestant". Pentecostals aren't Protestants(technically) because a Protestant comes from the Reformation, and their weren't anything pentecostals groups at that time.

Anyways, a true Christian is a true Christians. There have always been true Christians, even during the time the evil Roman church burned them, tortured them, cut out their unborn babies and fed them to dogs. Yes that's what your 'blessed catholic church' did, all because they wouldn't bow down to a anti-christ.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2003.

Perhaps David and Kevin could put their monumentally brilliant brains together and write a new dictionary!!! LOL! "That Daniel Webster; what the heck did he know anyway, silly old coot! Who cares what some old man has to say about the meanings of words anyway!"

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 05, 2003.

Oh, BTW, for the record Daniel Webster says a Protestant is "any Christian not part of the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Church."

What's the big deal anyway? Why can't you just admit your Protestant? Is it that rebellion runs so deep in your being that you even have to protest being called a protestant?

Gail (the Gal)

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 05, 2003.

We are justified by the blood of Christ INTRINSICALLY, actual sanctification -- not some mystical cloak of righteousness. This actual sanctification requires OBEDIENCE to the commands of Christ. We must "do" what Jesus says. That is not only biblical, but HISTORICAL.

The above article suggests that saved "by faith alone" is historical and that the Catholic Church is off the beaten path. However, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH! The Reformers went off the beaten path and jettisoned the very biblical teaching of justification by faith and works. Afterall, James says "we are not saved by faith alone." Hence, we now have some very major denominations that teach one cannot lose one's salvation no matter what kind of sin they commit. They boast and brag "of the blood of Christ" that they WILL go to heaven no matter what they do. It's appalling!

Gail

P.S. David, just for the record, the type of slop you are posting yet again about the Catholic Church is the reason you were banned from the Catholic Forum. You are making it very difficult for me or Rod to come to this forum and chat with you folks. I am getting the distinct feeling that you don't want Catholics on your "Ask Jesus" forum. I guess you and Kevin are the stand-ins for Jesus. Us morons have a question, we "Ask Jesus" and you and Kevin give Jesus' answer for Him.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 06, 2003.

We cannot lose salvation! Christ only died once and for all. How hard is it to understand that? You either accept or reject salvation. And that is NOT what Churches teach (about being saved and doing whatever you want and still be saved)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003.

And you call me the bigot? I feel people should learn the truth about the RCC. What is it with Americans? Everyone wants tolerence. Everyone wants to go to heaven there own way. Well, they can try, but the bible teaches that there is only one way. And that way is not the path being taken by the Roman Catholic Church, Mormon Church, Jehovah Witness, Oneness Pentecostal, Christian Science, and a whole lot more! These denominations come from Weak americans who can't handle anyone opinions, You have Gay people calling themselves Christians! Over Half of america thinks they are going to heaven, yet they commit premarital sex, and all sorts of others things because some CULT told them their works are going to saved them.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003.

David, YOUR church teaches one can lose their salvation:

The Assemblies of God has declared itself regarding the security of the believer in its bylaws (Article VIII, Section 1):

In view of the Biblical teaching that the security of the believer depends on a living relationship with Christ (John 15:6), in view of the Bible's call to a life of holiness (1 Peter 1:16; Hebrews 12:14); in view of the clear teaching that a man may have his part taken out of the Book of Life (Revelation 22:19); and in view of the fact that one who believes for a while can fall away (Luke 8:13); The General Council of the Assemblies of God disapproves of the unconditional security position which holds that it is impossible for a person once saved to be lost.

The Catholic Church teaches the same thing as YOUR Church. (I guess you'll have to speak to them about that).

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 06, 2003.

We cannot do any good works for salvation; it is a gift of God. If we cannot do any good works for salvation, then bad works cannot lose it. We are saved by grace through Faith. Faith is not a work. Kevin is right along with Catholics on thinking that there is something we can do for salvation. What part of 'gift' do you guys not understand?

Gail, there are almost a billion non-Catholics who call themselves Christians, and THEY ARE NOT catholic for a reason. I joked about Kevin being one of the 8 people saved, but it's true. Only a few are going to be saved, just like in the days of Noah. A billion+ Catholics is NOT a few. The numbers get smaller from the other billion when you subtract the cults, Jehovah Witnesses, LDS, UPC, Christian Science, etc. Wow, that's almost a billion and a half people calling themselves Christians that will NOT make it to heaven.

And before I get this lecture on how "only god can judge" (you people make up the cult of 'do not judge') God encourages us to Judge a righteous judgment by using His Holy Word. No, I cannot judge the hearts of people. I realized that there are true Christians everywhere who only stay in the cults to reach other people. All I am saying, is if you follow a certain teaching, even though you are sincere, it will lead you to a path to hell. Only in the half billion lie the true believers.

Is it possible, a billion Catholics can be wrong? Well a billion Muslims are. You see the pope (a man NOT of God) trying to unite world religions and all you say is "we are the true church because we are older blah blah blah". He says the idol Allah is MY God. He says the 300 million idols of Hindu’s is MY God. He says that Buddha is MY God. He says this piece of BREAD is MY God. Can’t you see the devil at work? I am surprised you people even believe in him. Such misuse of scripture the Catholic Church does. Such brainwashed people you are, hardened to God’s Word. I cannot blame you, Americans are brainwashed from youth. If you want to truly know Jesus, go find yourself a good bible believing church, and get out of the Whore of Revelations.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003.

David, so when your church teaches:

"that a man may have his part taken out of the Book of Life (Revelation 22:19)," and

"The General Council of the Assemblies of God DISAPPROVES of the unconditional security position which holds that it is impossible for a person once saved to be lost,"

you think that is consistent with what you teach, "We cannot lose salvation! Christ only died once and for all. How hard is it to understand that? You either accept or reject salvation" . . . ?

You are contradicting your own church's teaching David! It's that simple.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 06, 2003.

The Holy Scriptures are able to make you wise unto salvation which is by faith in Christ Jesus (2 Timothy 3:15).

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003.

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003.

The Whore of Revelations. Hey, the bible used that word. Don't look down on me just because I quote it.

"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Revelation 17:4-6)

"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:" (Revelation 17:1)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.

David wrote, "Kevin is right along with Catholics on thinking that there is something we can do for salvation. What part of ?gift? do you not understand guys?"

What part of CONDITIONS to accepting a 'gift' do you not understand? Just because Jesus offered the free gift of salvation does not mean that there are no conditions attached. When someone gives you a gift, you still have to do something to accept it.

By the way, the Catholic Church is NOT the Babylon of the book of Revelation. I already showed you on another thread how this is NOT the case. Babylon in the book of Revelation is the city of Jerusalem and NOT the Catholic Church as you falsely assert.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 07, 2003.

Well, I hate to say it, but Kevin is right again. Jesus offers the gift; but we have to TAKE it. And Kevin is also right, there are many conditions to discipleship.

Just a note on Babylon; as we all know, Babylon in the Old Testament was a secular, heathen nation. The word Babylon stems from Babel; as in the Tower of Babel. Of course, there again Babel depicts secularization -- man's attempt and control and rule of the world WITHOUT GOD! The Babylon mentioned in Revelations has absolutely nothing to do with the Catholic Church who preaches Christ crucified, buried and resurrected. Hence, David's post is patently ridiculous! Babylon is the world's system of doing things without God -- materialism, hedonism, New Age-ism! All those things.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 07, 2003.

There is only one condition, faith. Believe as you shall have eteral life (John 3:16). That is the message we are told countless of times.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.

Rev 17:9 "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

Rev 17:18 "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

I will stop there, since you people believe prophesy has been fulfilled you WON'T believe anything I say (which isn't new, the RCC has been identified was the Whore of Babylon way long ago).

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.

Only faith . . .? "Devils believe, and shudder." Faith without works is dead, being by itself.

The Roman government fell a long long time ago, but is a foreshadow of things to come as well. The Roman Empire was a wealthy secularized society with no room for God. Hedonism, materialism were the gods of that age. The number 7 does refer to Rome; but it refers to the Old Roman government that fell, the Old Roman Government that oppressed and persecuted Christians, the Old Roman Government that tried to establish a god in their own making.

The number 7 also depicts "complete", and hence depicts complete world power. The New Rome (or Babylon) will be like the Old Rome; oppressive, persecutorial, seeking to establish it's own way to god, and of course it will have the Anti-Christ at its helm with COMPLETE power, but only for awhile. For that Babylon will fall again when the Lord Jesus Christ slays the man of sin once for all.

The Catholic Church which has always upheld the perfect doctrine of the Trinity, the perfect doctrine on the diety of Jesus, the perfect doctrine of the death, burial and resurrection of our Savior can never recant those 2,000 year old decrees.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 07, 2003.

David,

If one is saved by FAITH ONLY as you falsely assert, then please tell everyone here why the apostle Paul wrote in Rom 10:8-9, But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Are you going to now try to CUT Confession out of your Bible as it seems that you have done with Mark 16:16 when you falsely assert that it is only Belief that saves when CLEARLY this passage states that if one is Baptized they will be saved???

Note: JERUSALEM is the CITY (BABYLON) of the book of Revelation.

Revelation 17:5-6 states, "And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement."

Revelation 18:21-24 states, "...Thus with violence the great CITY Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. THE LIGHT OF A LAMP SHALL NOT SHINE IN YOU ANYMORE, AND THE VOICE OF BRIDEGROOM AND BRIDE SHALL NOT BE HEARD IN YOU ANYMORE. [the JEWS were NO LONGER the people of God when Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70] For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. And IN HER was found the blood of PROPHETS AND SAINTS, and of all who were slain on the earth."

Please tell everyone here David how the Catholic Church (Remember, Babylon is a city) has merchants who were the great men of the earth???

Jesus said in Matthew 23:31-36: "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who MURDERED THE PROPHETS. FILL UP, THEN, THE MEASURE OF YOUR FATHER'S GUILT. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore, indeed, I send you PROPHETS, WISE MEN, and SCRIBES: some of them you will KILL and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that ON YOU MAY COME ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED ON THE EARTH, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, ALL THESE THINGS WILL COME UPON THIS GENERATION." (emphasis mine).

Hear what Jesus had to say about Jerusalem, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who KILLS THE PROPHETS and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT TO YOU DESOLATE;" (Matthew 23:37-38).

Get it?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 07, 2003.

You may be right, Kevin, but I believe we will see world dominion stemming from Jerusalem in the form of secularized power, if she is indeed the Babylon of Revelations.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 08, 2003.

Gail,

This already happened with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 11, 2003.

Perhaps David and Kevin could put their monumentally brilliant brains together and write a new dictionary!!! LOL! "That Daniel Webster; what the heck did he know anyway, silly old coot! Who cares what some old man has to say about the meanings of words anyway!" -gAIL.

RIGHT ON!!! DIWN WITH WEBSTER!!! stupid American prat, didnt even know how to spell the word Colour, realise, theatre, had to "Awmricanise" them. For shame.

I use the Oxford-Camrbidge unabridged dictionary. Nor som crappy American knock off.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 30, 2004.

Dave

have you considered the logic (absence of) of the leading article in this thread, the article that you cut and pasted.

let me summarise:

"i will not join that Church because it says that if i had not joined it i would go to Hell".

do you get my drift? is that the ONLY reason this "Rick Jones" has not joined? what a queer chap!

with that in mind, do you really think this thread was worth it? especially, this thread with its provocative and very unhelpful title?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 01, 2004.

"Over Half of america thinks they are going to heaven, yet they commit premarital sex, and all sorts of others things because some CULT told them their works are going to saved them."

Surely if their works will save them they know that premarital sex is a bad work and therefore they are damned. Whereas you say faith is the only thing necessary to be saved so premarital sex wouldn't matter. Also, where is the need for a whole new testatment of "catholics" telling us what is necessary to be saved if we can just say we believe. The devil believes and trembles, os he saved?

-- j and t (jandt.huggles@bt.com), December 08, 2004.

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Joining together with a cult faith liek the Roman Catholic religion is like becoming an ATHEIST. We are not to have any fellowship with darkness. Yet there are fools out there, saying its ok to join with a cult RCC, whose salvation doctrine goes againt the bible. A cult faith, shich states the bible is not the sole authority for TRUTH! That mans tradtion is equal to God's Word. When there belefs are contradictory to the LORDS. Joining with with CULT is like taking the MRK of the BEAST. I would Die first, before joining together, if such a horrid filthy faith. Any fool whos does so will get what they deserve for turning AGAINST CHRIST. No one who KNOWS THE WORD, COULD EVER JOIN WITH THIS CULT THE RCC, SHAME ON ANYONE WHO DOES SO. GOD WILL HAVE THE HOTTEST PART OF HELL WAITING FOR YOU. PRAY FOR DISCERNMENT AND WISDOM, YOUR BRAIN HAS BEEN SCRAMBLED BY SATAN, COULD BE THE EFFECT OF HANGING OUT WITH SATANS CHURCH. PRAY FOR FORGIVENESS, REPENT AND LEARN THE TRUTH.

-- Beverly O'Day (Baogeo69@aol.com), December 12, 2004.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! Joining together with a cult faith liek the Roman Catholic religion is like becoming an ATHEIST.

{So joinign wiht others who beleive in God and love the Lord Jesus Christ, and vei hima s the econ person of the Trinity, and embrace he Bible and the teachigns of the Cross and turn for he remisison of there sins,, is like beitn an atheist who rejects all of that? Surely you see how this statement is rather silly.}-Zarove

We are not to have any fellowship with darkness.

{But are th Catholics realy that dark? Arent they also Britehrs and sisters in Christ?}-Zarove

Yet there are fools out there, saying its ok to join with a cult RCC, whose salvation doctrine goes againt the bible.

{Many other grous "Salvation goes agaisn the Bible." The Bible says to be Baptosed, yet many Protestant Chruches refue to accoe this as its a "Good work to get you into heaven". Yet there it is in back and white. ( Sorry, Im Hcurhc of Christ lol.) Noentheless, disagreance as to what is and is not nessisary doesnt mean that it spacificllay is a diliberatley a-biblical beelif, ony that one or the other are in error. Open Dialouge woudl be rpeferable if error is commited to learn which is and is not in error.Woudl you not agree?}-Zarove

A cult faith, shich states the bible is not the sole authority for TRUTH!

{You keep using the word cult, but never relaly show how its a cult. OK, you disagree with its doctorines, fine,but this doesnt make it a cult... Likewise, many Protestnat chruhces reject the Bible Alone theory these days...}-Zarove

That mans tradtion is equal to God's Word.

{Actualy they say Sacred tradition is Equel to the Bible, and both are God words. Regardles of ratheer or not you agree, you must see and make the distinction, or else be guilty of flasified claims.}- Zarove

When there belefs are contradictory to the LORDS.

{Such as?}-Zarove

Joining with with CULT is like taking the MRK of the BEAST.

{Again wihtthe cult. the Catholic CHurhc is many things, but not a cult, since the use of extnesive isolationism and mind controle arent employed, and indeed the reverse is true and they seek to open the world to themselves. As tot he Mark fo the Beats comment, well, other than assertion you havent relaly made a point. This reads liek an angry and irrational screed, why should anyone read oragree with this?}-Zarove

I would Die first, before joining together, if such a horrid filthy faith.

{This is sort of flaming now, and not relaly advnacign why you disagree with it, only denegrating it. Can you use less explative and contemt and show more reasoned dialouge and convrsational skills?}- Zarove

Any fool whos does so will get what they deserve for turning AGAINST CHRIST.

{What if they are turnign to CHrist? Again, not all pepel who become Cahtlic, or who join with Cahtolics in oprayer and worship and aoration ofour Lord, do so wiht such corruption.}-Zarove

No one who KNOWS THE WORD, COULD EVER JOIN WITH THIS CULT THE RCC, SHAME ON ANYONE WHO DOES SO.

{Yet several do...scott Hahn is an example. Likewise we have converts on this baord who know the word fairly well... Jjst ask Gail and emily...}-Zarove

GOD WILL HAVE THE HOTTEST PART OF HELL WAITING FOR YOU.

{Isnt this presumptious? especially since oyu have yet to support any of your claims...}-Zarove

PRAY FOR DISCERNMENT AND WISDOM, YOUR BRAIN HAS BEEN SCRAMBLED BY SATAN, COULD BE THE EFFECT OF HANGING OUT WITH SATANS CHURCH. PRAY FOR FORGIVENESS, REPENT AND LEARN THE TRUTH.

{Uhm, OK? Really cant we all be a bit more articulae in why w disagree and less liberal in offering insults and disparageis and outrageous claism agaisnt?}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 12, 2004.

I wish that that imposter pope John Paul II, and his phony bishops would read these posts. In his stupid desire for ecumanism, JP gave away the Catholic church, and in return he received nothing. Too bad he did not settle for buying the Brooklyn bridge. He'd have had a better shot at that.

Though that may not all be true. I bellieve that the Vatican, (not stupid men), knew what they wee doing and wanted to destroy the true church. You should thank him fo being on your side.

The Church will prevail with the tiny remnant that is left. The novus ordo catholics are now Protestant anyway. They think that they are all saved no matter what. "I accepted the Lord, and now the sky is the limit. As Luther said, "Sin all you want, but love God more"

Yeah!. cheat on your wife all you want but love her more than ever.

Schizophrenia rules!

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 13, 2004.

[I haven't had a chance to read through this thread and I probably won't get to it til Wednesday. There's some stuff here that needs to be retracted or proven.]

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 13, 2004.

The novus ordo catholics are now Protestant anyway. They think that they are all saved no matter what. "I accepted the Lord, and now the sky is the limit. As Luther said, "Sin all you want, but love God more"

Yeah!. cheat on your wife all you want but love her more than ever.

TC,

What you said is simply not true. I don't know any Catholic that believes that. In fact, we still get flack from some of our Protestant friends here for not "being sure" of our salvation.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 13, 2004.

Andy:

I was part of novus ordo for longer than I care to remember. I could see the confession lines dwindling down to almost nothing but the communion lines became longer than ever. Speaking to catholics, they openly admitted artificial birth control, but did not hesitate to go to communion.Some even say that abortion in certain cases is ok.

These people (if not in word but in deed), either think that Heaven is automatic or they have lost the faith altogether.

So while they don't go around saying that they are saved in so many words, they sure act as if they are. Andy, they don't fear sin, mortal or otherwise.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 13, 2004.

What you said is simply not true. I don't know any Catholic that believes that.

Andy,

I don't think TC's commentary can be dismissed that lightly. The heresies of Universalism and Indifferentism are, at least implicitly, embraced by a good number of the Novus Ordo church's hierarchy & faithful. They may say there is a Hell, but they'll be quick to say that God would never actually send anyone there. The sacrament of penance has all but disappeared from the Novus Ordo parishes. There are only a couple of examples of the things that, to Traditional Catholics, are readily apparent.

-- jake (j@k.e), December 13, 2004.

jake and TC,

I don't doubt what you've seen in Novus Ordo parishes. I'm truly sorry that has been your experience. I fully appreciate the errors you have seen personally.

At the same time though, my experiences have been very different. The things that you say are happening in Novus Ordo parishes are not what I've personally seen. The beliefs you say are being pushed in Novus Ordo parishes are not what I see being taught in the Catechism class I attend with my whole family.

I've seen confession lines and daily Mass attendance increase, I've seen Eucharistic adoration and Rosary groups increase. I've seen attendance at Rosary prayer groups to protest Planned Parenthood and abortion clinics increase.

They all seem to go and in hand with what I would call an orthodox parish priest. If he has a tender devotion to Mary, all the better. I only have about five different data points, but that has been my experience. It may just be that I've been blessed by the areas I've lived in. May be I'm expecting the worst and am pleasantly surprised when I don't see it as bad as I thought it was. Or it may be that I'm only seeing what I want to see. But I find it hard to believe all the rhetoric about the demise of the Novus Ordo.

I'm not that blind though. I know there are elements of Modernism, Universalism, and Indifferentism still in the Church. But they were there long before Vatican II. What gives me hope is that there are more laity willing to stand up against these errors and parish priests who are increasingly orthodox, especially the more recent seminarians.

All this is just my opinion, I know. And in the overall scheme of things it means nothing. I just want you to know where I'm coming from and what my personal experiences have been. Not all Novus Ordo parishes are like the ones you've experienced or what many internet sites would have you believe they are.

I think you both have good points about EENS and the "words of consecration" which have lead me on a search for the truth. But attacks on the personal failings of some of the Novus Ordo leadership and liberal minded litugists and priests don't add much to the discussion, in my opinion. I know they're there and they have to be fought.

You're both much more knowledgeable than I and I know I have a lot to learn. I do learn much from our discussions and the challenging questions you both raise. Please keep at it.

-- Andy S ("ask333204@yahoo.com"), December 13, 2004.

Andy:

I know that the priest has a lot to do with your perceptions. I know of one novus ordo priest who is a traditionalist at heart. He hates what is going on in the Church and says so. He hopes that the Church would return to the old ways. I admire him for that.

Today I happened to catch the benediction service on EWTN. A Father Collins gave the talk and I was blown away by his sermon. He said that the latin, altar rails, high altar and tabernacle must be returned. No women on the altar, the table must go, and on and on. He did say that the pope is working at it. This I doubt, as the pope has never said a traditional mass.

So yes, there is a movement among new priests, but is it too little, too late. I hope not.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 13, 2004.

I hope not too TC.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 13, 2004.

I've seen confession lines and daily Mass attendance increase, I've seen Eucharistic adoration and Rosary groups increase. I've seen attendance at Rosary prayer groups to protest Planned Parenthood and abortion clinics increase.

Those things are, of course, good in themselves. The problem comes in with the lack of follow-through on the level of the hierarchy. There are many Catholics out there who, if they stumbled into a parish such as you describe, would think they'd died & gone to Heaven, so starved are they for what the've been deprived of for years.

Does your bishop approve & encourage Eucharistic adoration & the public recitation of the Rosary? If so, let him come & lead you in it. Is he opposed to rotten catechesis? If so, let him rip them out of his schools. Catholics shouldn't feel as if they have to sneak around the bishop's back to find a particulary good liturgy or orthodox preaching. If the bishop is doing his job, those things should be a given. If they're not a given, the bishop has not done his job.

-- jake (j@k.e), December 14, 2004.

Those things are, of course, good in themselves. The problem comes in with the lack of follow-through on the level of the hierarchy. -jake

Very good point jake. I don't rightly know. I'm not sure if the bishop encourages these things or if they are there because of the priests and laity. My "impression" was that the things I mentioned began because of motivated laity who initiated them, and the parish priest who supported it.

In at least one parish, I believe it was the priest who initiated it instead. I should check to see if they were encouraged by the bishop or not. I know JPII encourages these things at his level (e.g., ROSARIUM VIRGINIS and ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA).

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 14, 2004.

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

-- David Ortiz

What David is saying here (without realizing it), is the doctrine of Purgatory.

If all tne saved went directly to Heaven there would not be the two distinctive statements.

-- TC (Treadmil234@south.com), December 20, 2004.

"What David is saying here (without realizing it), is the doctrine of Purgatory."

I know what I am saying and I'm not saying what you said I'm saying. Just face it, your doctrine is not in that verse.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2004.

Sure is. Once again the Bible stresses the necessity of a life of active works, as it does so often. People who have fulfilled this divine requirement, when they face their judgement, will receive their reward. And yet, because of the great mercy of God, even those who are lacking in such works can yet have hope of salvation, provided they have not rejected God outright. When they face their judgement they will first be required to "suffer a loss" (obviously not a reference to either heaven or hell, since there is no suffering in heaven, and hell is forever). Such people can still be saved, but only through suffering, as by fire. It's pretty clear.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 21, 2004.