These words of Jesus must be interpreted spiritually. The bread and wine are symbols of His Body and His Blood. As Jesus was present in person at the Last Supper when He said: 'This is my body', and His whole Body was present, these words must have been symbolical. At the same time Jesus' Blood had not been shed, therefore the words 'This is my blood' must also have been symbolical.

When Jesus said: 'I am the door', was Jesus a literal door with four panels, a handle and a keyhole? - and when Jesus said: 'I am the true vine',does that mean Jesus Christ was the literal trunk of a vine tree?

Figurative language such as this is used every day. For instance, a portrait of a person is painted and one describing it says: 'This is Mr. So and so.' Now he does not mean that it is literally the person who is portrayed: he means rather that it is a representation of the person who is portrayed.

'This is My Body' - that is the divinely appointed representation of My Body.

'This is my Blood' - that is the divinely appointed representation of My Blood.

Christ emphasised that His Feast was to be a remembrance one. 'This do in remembrance of Me.' You can only remember a person when he is not literally and bodily present with you. If Christ is literally and bodily on the altar, as Rome proclaims, then the Feast ceases to be one of remembrance, and that destroys the very foundation of the Lord's Supper.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 07, 2003

Answers

What is the unanswerable question which the priest of Rome must be asked?

What do you break when you break the consecrated host in the Mass, as you do, putting one portion into the chalice and partaking of the portion yourself? You say the whole substance of the bread is gone but you have broken some substance. What is it? It cannot be bread, for by your showing it is not there. It cannot be the Body of Christ, for if you say He cannot be broken the immortal and impassible, what is broken when you break the host? Yet that the subject is so solemn that one would feel amused at the way in which Rome has provided for the disappearance, corruption etc. of her transubstantiated host. For example, 'if the host be putrified or musty or lost, or if a mouse eat it, through carelessness'. We ask again: What is it that becomes corrupted? It cannot be the accidents of smell, taste, look and colour. Rome tells us there is no substance there, but that of the Body of the Redeemer, but surely that cannot corrupt. One must conclude that after all has been said an done there is nothing but bread, consecrated no doubt, but bread still.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 07, 2003.

Don't you ever just get a headache for worrying about this so much? It's all semantics. It's all a ritual. Relax and quit worrying about degrading another religion. Does it truly threaten you so very much that you read and research and compare and measure to such obsessive ends?

Is your belief so fragile that it becomes a moral imperative for you to thrash other religions that threaten your own? Is the threat real or imagined? Actual or fabricated? Many crimes have been committed in the name of God. Many wars have been fought over theology. Many lives have been destroyed by the "righteous".

Mr. Oritz...you need to take a vacation or something. You need to breathe deep, cleansing breaths. Think happy thoughts. Maybe buy a pet.

Your knowledge is impressive. Your intellect is vast regarding your propoganda. Your wisdom? Well, everyone needs a goal.

-- The Roamer (The_Roamer69@hotmail.com), July 14, 2003.

The Roamer,

You said,"Don't you ever just get a headache for worrying about this so much?"

No.

"Is your belief so fragile that it becomes a moral imperative for you to thrash other religions that threaten your own? Is the threat real or imagined? Actual or fabricated?"

My beliefs are not fragile. The Bible says that WE CHRISTIANS are to tell the truth as empowered BY the Holy Ghost. "God hath chosen the foolishness of preaching" in order to spread the word. How would a person know about falsehood if someone didn't tell them?

"Many crimes have been committed in the name of God. Many wars have been fought over theology. Many lives have been destroyed by the "righteous"."

I agree, what you have just described is RELIGION. Not everybody that says they're a Christian is one. Jesus says we are to be harmless as doves. If people who claim to be Christians slaughter others, it is clear to see that they are not Christians at all.

"Mr. Oritz...you need to take a vacation or something. You need to breathe deep, cleansing breaths. Think happy thoughts. Maybe buy a pet."

I am looking into getting a pet cat.

"Your intellect is vast regarding your [propaganda]."

No propaganda here, only truth.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 15, 2003.

David,

The ONLY CHRISTIANS, are those who have OBEYED the gospel, for it is the gospel that is God's power to salvation. (See Romans 1:16). There are NO CHRISTIANS in either the Catholic Church nor are there CHRISTIANS in any Denomination for they have been taught a false gospel.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 16, 2003.

THE CHURCH IS "THE BODY OF CHRIST".

Ep 1:22-23 "And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all."

There are true Christians everywhere, not just in one denomination. I am not saying to convert to a Baptist church, or Pentecostal. I even admit there are true Christians in the Catholic church, but they are not true Catholics. They stay in hopes of converting others. There have always been true Christians, even when the Roman Church was the only church around, and murdered true Christians.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 16, 2003.

David,

Yes, the church is "The body of Christ". There are NO Christians outside of the church. When one OBEYS the GOSPEL by being BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST (Rom 6:3-4; Gal 3:26-27), the Lord adds them to the church. (Acts 2:41, 47; 1 Cor. 12:13). Only those who have OBEYED THE GOSPEL will be saved. There are NO Catholic-Christians, NO Pentecostal-Christians, NO Baptist-Christians, NO Assembly of God- Christians etc... for NOT one of these churches have been planted by God. Since you claim that you are saved by FAITH ONLY, you are NOT a Christian. Claiming faith does NOT prove faith. Our faith is only accounted to us for righteousness when we COMPLY with ALL of God's CONDITIONS for salvation.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 17, 2003.

I am a 'Pentecostal', yet you will never find me saying, "To be saved you must belong to the Pentecostal denomination." I tell you the blessed truth that salvation is not found in a church or a(any) religious system, but in the person of the Beloved Son of God, Jesus Christ. For a sinner to be saved, he must turn to HIM and trust completely and only in HIM.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 17, 2003.

Kevin says "Since you claim that you are saved by FAITH ONLY, you are NOT a Christian."

Kevin, Since you claim that we are saved by our merits, YOU sir, are NOT the Christian.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 17, 2003.

David,

You said, "I am a 'Pentecostal', yet you will never find me saying, "To be saved you must belong to the Pentecostal denomination."

In order to be a member of the church in which Christ built, the church of Christ, one MUST obey the gospel. There are NO if's, and's or but's to this requirement. If the gospel is God's power to salvation (Romans 1:16) and it is, then those who do NOT obey the gospel will be lost. (2 Thessalonians 1:8). The Pentecostal Church was formed by men and those who are in this denomination are NOT Christians because they are taught to obey Pentecostal doctrine which is NOT in accordance with the word of God.

You wrote, "I tell you the blessed truth that salvation is not found in a church or a(any) religious system, but in the person of the Beloved Son of God, Jesus Christ. For a sinner to be saved, he must turn to HIM and trust completely and only in HIM."

Yes, salvation is "IN CHRIST", and it is Christ who ADDS one to the church, however, the ONLY way to get "IN CHRIST" is to be baptized INTO Christ. (See Romans 6:3-4; Galatians 3:26-27). Those who claim that one is saved by FAITH ONLY and that baptism does NOT SAVE do ERR not knowing the truth. There are NO Christians outside of the body of Christ, and the body of Christ is the CHURCH. The Bible teaches that salvation is "IN CHRIST" (2 Timothy 2:10) and that to be "IN CHRIST" is to be in the body of Christ, which is the church of Christ (Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 1:22-23; Acts 20:28; Hebrews 9:22; Romans 5:8-9). It is the word of God [the seed of the kingdom] which produces Christians, and NOT the teaching of the Catholic Church NOR any of her Protestant denominations that all came from her. (Luke 8:11).

When the seed of God [His word] is planted on GOOD SOIL, the one who BELIEVES AND OBEYS the TRUTH of God's word [they obey the gospel], then [and ONLY then] can that person become a child of God and is ADDED by Jesus to His church, the church of Christ. There is NO other way one can be saved except by OBEDIENCE to the word of God. There are NO Christians who are NOT members of the church for which Jesus died [His church - the church of Christ]!!!

You wrote, "Dear Kevin, Since you claim that we are saved by our merits, YOU sir, are NOT the Christian."

I did NOT say we are saved by "our merits", I have said and will continue to say that there are CONDITIONS one must meet in order to be saved. I have obeyed the gospel so therefore I am a Christian. You have been taught a man-made doctrine which is NOT in accordance with the word of God. If Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (Hebrews 5:9) and He is, then those who DO NOT OBEY Him will be lost. To claim that one can be saved by FAITH ONLY most certainly does NOT agree with the word of God.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 17, 2003.

The New Testament is quite clear in telling how we are to be saved. "Therefore having been justified by faith; we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ", Romans 5:1

Repentance of course is necessary for salvation, I admit that, but we cannot repent to God until we are justified by faith. Same thing goes for being obedient to Christ, something we cannot do without being justified by faith first. In fact, we can do nothing pleasing to God without faith.

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6).

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 17, 2003.

Kevin, before you answer, please take your topics to these two other threads. Do we need to be Baptized to be saved?

Are there conditions for salvation?

Let's try and stick to one topic at one thread.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 17, 2003.

I cannot believe the things you say, I wonder what you will say next. The rapture is a false teaching? Baptism in the Holy Spirit is from the Devil? The Bible is not the word of God? Jesus is Not God? We can lose our salvation?

Let me just answer this before you do. No the rapture is not a false teaching. The charismatic gifts are still in effect today. The Bible is the Word of God. Jesus is God. And we can't lose our salvation.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 17, 2003.

David,

You wrote, "The doctrine of justification through faith alone is central to true Christianity. Any church or denomination which denies this central article of the faith is to be denied any status or claim as a true church of Jesus Christ."

No David, this is NOT true you have been deceived. One is NOT justified by FAITH ALONE no more than one is justified by GRACE ALONE or by anything ALONE. Let's let the apostle James settle this one: "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:20).

You wrote, "Justification is by faith alone apart from any human worth or merit. If you think God will save you based upon faith plus anything that you do, you are gravely mistaken."

It is interesting to note that you do NOT provide any scriptural justification for your false view that one is saved by FAITH ALONE. As a matter of fact, the ONLY time the words FAITH and ALONE are used together in the word of God are to defeat your false doctrine that one is saved by FAITH ONLY. Let's let the apostle James answer again: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26).

You wrote, "The New Testament is quite clear in telling how we are to be saved. "Therefore having been justified by faith; we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ", Romans 5:1"

Yes David, we are justified by FAITH, but you do NOT see the words FAITH and ONLY anywhere together in this passage. As a matter of fact, you do NOT even see the word ONLY as you ASSUME this is what this passage means when it says NO such thing. This is another invention of Satan to turn people away from the truth of God's word.

You wrote, "Repentance of course is necessary for salvation, I admit that, but we cannot repent to God until we are justified by faith. Same thing goes for being obedient to Christ, something we cannot do without being justified by faith first."

If REPENTANCE is necessary for salvation [and it is], then you just defeated your doctrine that says one is saved by FAITH ALONE. Yes FAITH comes before REPENTANCE, but WITHOUT REPENTANCE, one is NOT saved. So, your FAITH ALONE doctrine falls because it does NOT include REPENTANCE in the plan of salvation.

You wrote, "In fact, we can do nothing pleasing to God without faith. "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6)."

This is a true statement, but by using the words FAITH and ALONE, you do err NOT knowing the truth. Jesus told the apostles to wait in Jerusalem for them to be clothed with the Holy Spirit and He [Jesus] told them that "...repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." (Luke 24:47). This is EXACTLY what happened for Peter told the multitude that in order to be saved they had to "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." (Acts 2:38). In Mark 16:16, Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Which part of this do you NOT understand? Once again, the FAITH ALONE view falls SHORT of what God requires in order for one to be saved.

You wrote, "I cannot believe the things you say, I wonder what you will say next. The rapture is a false teaching?"

You are putting words in my mouth, but there is NO such thing as the rapture for this doctrine is FOREIGN to NT teaching on this subject.

You wrote, "Baptism in the Holy Spirit is from the Devil?"

No David, there is NO such thing anymore as "Baptism in the Holy Spirit". This is another INVENTION of satan to blind those who do NOT love the truth.

You wrote, "The Bible is not the word of God?"

Yes, the Bible IS the word of God.

You wrote, "Jesus is Not God?"

Yes, Jesus IS God.

You wrote, "We can lose our salvation?"

Yes, we CAN lose our salvation.

You wrote, "Let me just answer this before you do. No the rapture Pre(Pre-Trib) is not a false teaching."

Yes David this IS false teaching. Jesus will NOT return to this earth as we will ALL meet Him in the clouds. There will also be NO earth to return to as it will be burned up. (2 Peter 3:10).

You wrote, "The charismatic gifts are still in effect today. (Speaking in tongues)"

No, the gifts that were given to the apostles to CONFIRM the word of God are NO longer in use today for they are NO longer needed NOR are they required since we have the WRITTEN NT.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 17, 2003.

WE DON'T REALLY EAT CHRIST'S BODY -- OR DO WE?

-- __ (__@__.__), July 29, 2003.

It is interesting to note that Catholics claim that Christ is present in the Eucharist however they do not have one shred of proof to show where this is actually the case. People are just supposed to blindly accept what they have to say is the truth without question. When Jesus did a miracle, it was visible but yet we are supposed to believe that something miraculous happens but yet NOTHING changes. Who can believe it???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 29, 2003.

what i fail to understand is the need to re-invent theology.

The Lord said -- This IS my body,.....This IS my blood,...

NOT: This represents my body; this is symbolic of my blood.

remember how the people reacted with some disgust -- eating someone's body. that's in teh Scriptures.

as if that were not enough, what about this?

The First Apology Of Justin For The Christians Addressed To The Roman Emporer Titus Aelius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Caesar By Saint Justin, Martyr

"Chapter LXVI: Of The Eucharist. And this food is called among us Eucharisti'a5 [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.6 For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me,7 this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn."

this guy knew of Real Presence nearly 2,000 years ago.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), January 08, 2004.

topping

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), January 08, 2004.

i would encourage everyone to read this.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), January 08, 2004.

oops. again.

http://www.newadvent.org/library/jp02ee.htm

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), January 08, 2004.

Test this...

Jesus said "This is My Body" and "This is My Blood" and Paul said we are actually partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ in the Supper.

According to the literal reading of Christ's words and Paul's words, there's little doubt that, in some manner, we are partaking of Christ's true Body and Blood sacrifice in the Supper.

The question is, in what manner do these come to us? Actual or Symbolic only? Physical or Spiritual only?

Early Church Fathers, some of the most reliable who were direct disciples of the Apostles, believed that the Body and Blood presence was actual, not merely Symbolic. That casts a vote to the Actual Presence category.

The literal reading of Scripture tells us that the Body and Blood presence is actual. That casts a vote to the Actual Presence category.

Based on a literal reading of scripture and the earliest views of the earliest Christians we can easily conclude the Supper contains the Actual Presence of Christ's Body and Blood.

The question is, "in what manner is this actual Body and Blood actually present?"

First, the Roman view that the elements of Bread and Wine are wholly transformed into the Body and Blood ignores this verse:

Matt 26:28 "I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

Jesus said he would not "drink of the fruit of the vine," which means the wine they drank remained "fruit of the vine" otherwise Jesus would have said, "I will not drink this blood from now on until that day..."

1Corinthians 11:26 "For whenever you eat this BREAD and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 27 Therefore, whoever eats the BREAD or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord."

From this verse, we see that the element remains bread. If it were changed into a new substance, Paul could not have said, "whenever you eat this BREAD" and "whoever eats the BREAD" since it's no longer bread that you eat. He would have said, "Whenever you eat this Body" and "whoever eats this Body." He said BREAD.

Paul said it's literal bread and wine. Jesus said it's literal bread and wine. There is no way a Roman view can be correct in light of literal scripture.

So, we are left with these facts:

1. We are partaking of Christ's physical Body and Blood. 2. We are eating physical Bread and Wine.

Now, we must not forget the overwhelming number of verses that tell us that the Church is Christ's Body.

1 Corinthians 12:27 "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it."

Ephesians 5:23 "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior."

Ephesians 5:29 "After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church"

Colossians 1:24 "Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church."

Colossians 3:15 "Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace."

Ephesians 3:6 "This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body"

Ephesians 5:30,32 "for we are members of his body...This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church."

From all these clear verses, we cannot ignore that the Church is the literal Body of Christ. It is a mystery.

We have these facts: 1. We are partaking of Christ's physical Body and Blood. 2. We are eating physical Bread and Wine. 3. We are Christ's Body.

What was the physical Flesh of Christ composed of?

John 1:14 - "The Word became flesh"

1 John 1:1 - "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning the Word of Life."

From these verses, we can see that the physical Body of Jesus was the very Word of God, the Word of Life. To touch the physical Body of Christ was to literally touch the Eternal Word of God.

We can add this fact: 4. The Body of Christ is the Eternal Word of God.

We must not forget that Jesus also ate and drank food just like us. The elements, the vitamins, the water, the minerals contained in food and drink became part of His Body.

Add this fact: 5. Christ's Body was composed of elements contained in physical food.

Let's add these up: 1. We are partaking of Christ's physical Body and Blood. 2. We are eating physical Bread and Wine. 3. We are Christ's Body. 4. The physical Body of Christ is the Word of God. 5. Christ's Body was composed of elements contained in physical food.

Christ's flesh was composed of the Word of God AND human food.

You can think about it and test it...

The literal bread and wine are the literal physical body and blood of Jesus as we accept them as a part of our bodies, since we are the Body of Christ.

Christ's body was composed of the Eternal Word AND physical food. He gave up bread from His plate (His bread) and wine from His cup (His wine) and let us eat HIS BREAD and drink HIS WINE - the elements which comprise his Body and Blood.

The bread is the Body of Christ when the Church partakes.

The question becomes: When do we consider a steak part of our body? When does water become part of our body? When you lose a hair, at what point does it cease to be part of your body? When you bleed, does the blood cease to be your blood? If you lose your arm, when does it cease to be your arm?

These are questions that dive into the deepest questions of reality. That's why Paul said the oneness between a man and a woman is a mystery - and the oneness of Christ and His Body is indeed a mystery.

Here's what's important:

When you partake of the bread and wine of communion, remember that it is not merely bread and wine, but that it is the substance of the physical Body and Blood of Christ that was given and shed on the cross - BECAUSE WE ARE PART OF THE PHYSICAL BODY OF CHRIST.

Recognize your fellow MEMBERS around you and realize you are all ONE in Christ - not just spiritually, but physically as well - we'll all be resurrected physically someday.

Do not demote communion into something "merely Symbolic" forgetting the presence of the Eternal Word or forget that we are Christ's Body or forget that Christ's Body was composed of simple human food and drink, just like ours.

This view will likely be hard for most to grasp.

We become part of Christ's Body when we accept into our life, by faith, the Word (Jesus) the Head.

When we commune and share bread with the One Body of Christ (which is composed of the Word of God and physical properties) we are nourished as members of that Mystical Physical Body and reaffirmed as Members of Christ.

For those who have moral issues with sex, please excuse the following graphic analogies. It may contain too much biology for some people's tastes:

ACCEPTANCE OF MARRIAGE PROPOSAL = New Birth When we accept Christ's proposal of forgiveness, we are born of His Spirit and enter into a new relationship with Him.

MARRIAGE CEREMONY = Baptism When we are baptized, we are recognized and incorporated into Christ's Physical Body - becoming part of His Family.

CONSUMMATION (sex) = Communion When we accept the bread and wine, we are accepting the body and blood of Christ into our bodies. Our bodies comprise His Body.

This is symblized in the act of sexual intercourse between a man and his wife. The man inserts his body into the woman's body and leaves a part of his body inside her. It is a moment of mysterious Oneness that is repeated often in a healthy relationship. It affirms the physical and spiritual Oneness of the man and wife. It is more than symbolic, it's a true time of "becoming one."

Communion seals, reaffirms, and nourishes the PHYSICAL ONENESS of Christ and the Body that He will one day resurrect and take to the Marriage Supper (party) of the Lamb.

So, if you do not eat the bread and drink the wine often, your relationship with Christ is not as healthy as it could be, especially when you realize it is a time of "becoming one" with His Body.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), August 01, 2004.

Kevin--

Only Christians--those who are saved., are even able to obey the gospel because they have been delivered from the power of sin over their lives. Salvation comes by hearing the gospel and believing.

When you see someone who is able to obey--it is because they are Christians saved by the grace of God.

You don't become a Christian because you obey--you obey because you are a Christian.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 01, 2004.

Max,

I have always had some difficulty with fully understanding the Catholic teaching of transubstanciation. I do know how to explain it if asked, but try (at all costs) to avoid being put into that position.

I know you are not Catholic, but I found your explanation clear and nicely put. I'm not gifted as an apologist and would be interested in reading both Catholic and Protestant input about your viewpoint.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), August 01, 2004.

What Max was saying sounded pretty good until he tried to claim that our bodies are made up of what we eat.

Does that mean we really are what we eat?

I am sorry--but just because we eat bread--doesn't mean our bodies are bread. If you examine flesh--I doubt you'll find any flour or grain in it.

The presence of Christ is spiritual. He is present even when two or three gather in His name.

The elements are only symbolic of a spiritual truth.

-- ('faith01@myway.com"), August 01, 2004.

Faith,

Please show me where the word of God ever states, "Only Christians--those who are saved., are even able to obey the gospel because they have been delivered from the power of sin over their lives."???

Please also show me where the word of God ever states that, "Salvation comes by hearing the gospel and believing."??? Must one repent in order to be saved??? If not, why not???

Must one confess Jesus in order to be saved??? If not, why not???

Must one be baptized in order to be saved??? Okay, don't answer this question, because I already know your answer, which does not agree witht the word of God.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), August 01, 2004.

"Must one repent in order to be saved?...Must one confess Jesus in order to be saved???...Must one be baptized in order to be saved?"

Must we do these things? Yes. But we can only do these things once we become born again. Only those who have been born again can even understand the Word of God. Just like in says in Romans 8, the natural man, the man who has his mind set on the flesh cannot please God. Are those things you mentioned pleasing to God? Yes, but they are the fruits of the new birth, they don't secure the new birth.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 02, 2004.

"Must one repent in order to be saved" - Kevin

God grants repentance.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 02, 2004.

According to the dictionary, repent is a verb, therefore it is something a person must do. It is more correct to say that God grants the grace to repent. Whether we do or not is up to us.

Main Entry: 1re·pent Pronunciation: ri-'pent Function: verb Etymology: Middle English, from Old French repentir, from re- + pentir to be sorry, from Latin paenitEre -- more at PENITENT intransitive senses 1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life 2 a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mind transitive senses 1 : to cause to feel regret or contrition 2 : to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for - re·pent·er noun

-- james (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), August 02, 2004.

James,

Your argument is not with me but with the Word of God.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 02, 2004.

David,

Do you dispute the dictionary definition of repent? If you do I would like to hear your definition.

I just don't see how God would respects our free will would force us to repent.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), August 02, 2004.

I am not Arminian, I don't believe in libertarian free will. I believe the natural man is dead in sin, and does not seek for God.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 02, 2004.

Unless you are willing to defend the myth of libertarian free will?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 02, 2004.

Faith, Please show me where the word of God ever states, "Only Christians-- those who are saved., are even able to obey the gospel because they have been delivered from the power of sin over their lives."???

That's what salvation is Kevin--deliverance from the power of sin and the penalty thereof. Those who are saved are then elected to eternal blessings such as being adopted children of God and eternal life.

Without being delivered by Jesus Christ--we are less likely to resist sin and even if we do--we are unable to please God. Our works are like filthy rags before an holy God. Only the blood of His Son can make us clean and beautiful before God. There is no other way.

Please also show me where the word of God ever states that, "Salvation comes by hearing the gospel and believing."??? Must one repent in order to be saved??? If not, why not???

The Bible tells us that *faith* comes by hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ--that he died and rose from the dead--for us., and believing that. Salvation comes by that faith. Believing this gospel necessarily brings us to our knees. We repent that we are sinners and we confess that Jesus is Lord. And we are saved.

Only then are we able to understand the deeper truths revealed in Scripture....

Must one confess Jesus in order to be saved??? If not, why not???

Yes--one must confess that Jesus Lord.

Must one be baptized in order to be saved??? Okay, don't answer this question, because I already know your answer, which does not agree witht the word of God.

When a person repents that he is a sinner--when he turns from that sin and towards God--when he confesses that Jesus is Lord and when he receives God's gift of salvation by this faith in Christ--he is then baptised by the washing and renewal of the Holy Spirit--whom Christ gives to all who believe.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 02, 2004.

Max,

I found your analogy of Communion in the Eucharist and Consummation of the Marriage Covenant very touching. I don't think that analogy is made often enough. It really brings out the importance and purpose of marriage and the marriage act (i.e., sexual intercourse) in God's plan, IMHO. Likwise, I think it also helps explain Communion and the Eucharist. Thanks for posting that.

The only other place I've heard something similar is in talks by Christopher West on John Paul II's Theology of the Body.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 05, 2004.

Andy, I also concur about Max's Communion/ Eucharist post. Made a lot of sense to me. Seems like people here got hung up on "bits and pieces" rather than taking it as a whole.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), August 05, 2004.