Who killed Christ?

-- Ethan (Ethan_Smith_491@hotmail.com), July 11, 2003

Answers

Christ was killed by Roman soldiers, at the order of Pontius Pilate, who had been coerced into giving that order, by the Jewish authorities ...

" ... Pilate made efforts to release Him, but the Jews cried out saying, "If you release this Man, you are no friend of Caesar; everyone who makes himself out to be a king opposes Caesar."(John 19:12)

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 12, 2003.

I did. You did. We all did.

-- jake (jake1@pngusa.net), July 12, 2003.

Jesus Christ is very clear about this:

''I lay down my life for my sheep.'' (John 10:15) --and, ''For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it up again. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. Such is the command I have received from my Father.''

Many people find this incredible. Nobody ''killed'' Jesus Christ. Nobody COULD. He gave His life for all of us.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 12, 2003.

Jmj

Gene, in my opinion ...
To prevent people from misunderstanding, it is better not to say that "Nobody 'killed' Jesus Christ." It is accurate to say that "Nobody COULD" have killed him if he, in his divinity, had not permitted it. But Paul answered accurately above, for he used words very similar to those used on the first Pentecost by the first pope:

"Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. ... Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know -- this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 12, 2003.

It is entirely fitting you should add to my post these excellent observations. I'm glad you have, because they build squarely upon what I've tried to signal, the immensity of God's Will.

No thinking person would infer from my previous post that I'm ignoring how Christ came to be crucified. Everyone knows He was ''killed'' /

My appreciation of John 10:15 is based upon love for Jesus Christ, not for disputing a historical event. It's an ANGLE seldom approached in contemplation of Christ's passion & death. It arouses greater LOVE for Him, I believe; knowing He was doing His Father's Will; not just falling victim to murderers.

Neither will this point of view exonerate the ones who took Jesus to Calvary and crucified Him. It isn't what I intended by quoting Jesus' words.

We should conclude in faith that the question of WHO? killed Him ultimately trivializes the passion and death of Jesus. It is much saner to accept the collective guilt ourselves, rather than to assign it to one group. And that's precisely how unthinking people trivialize Christ's death; going after the ''guilty'' group, such as, either-or-- Romans vs. Jews.

Your post is a good bookend to mine. I hope you realise it.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 13, 2003.

Jesus Christ was killed by the romans at the behest of jewish leadership. This is not an anti semite statement. jews don't believe, even today, through their rejection of the new testament that Jesus was whom he said he was. His teachings that God Loves Jews, Heathens, whores, leapers, ect, equally drove the Jewish leaders to kill Jesus because Jews believe (d) they are God's chosen people and none are equal or above them. I am greatful to the jews who had Jesus killed because they did what he said they would do, kill him. If jewish folks ever took the time to look at other parts of the new testament, they would also find that the guards who guarded Jesus's tomb were bribed to say that the deciples came and took his body. is it ever possible to disagree with a jew in todays world and not be labled an antisemite. Jews have killed jews throughout history. why should this be any different ? remember Yitzhak Rabin. he was killed by a jew.

Yitzhak Rabin

(1922-1995)

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

Yitzhak Rabin was born in Jerusalem, in March 1922. His father, Nehemiah, had immigrated to Israel from the United States, and in World War I served as a volunteer in the Jewish Legion. His mother, Rosa, was one of the first members of the Haganah, the mainstream Jewish defense organization.

After completing his schooling with distinction, Rabin volunteered for the Palmach, the commando unit of the Jewish community. He served in the Palmach and the Israeli army (I.D.F.) for 27 years, culminating his military career as I.D.F. Chief of Staff.

Retiring from I.D.F. service on January 1, 1968, he was appointed Israeli Ambassador to the United States, where he consolidated ties between the two states.

Rabin returned to Jerusalem in the Spring of 1973, and became active in the Israel Labor Party. In the December 1973 elections, which followed the Yom Kippur War, he was elected to the Knesset, and when Golda Meir formed her government in April 1974, he was appointed Minister of Labor. This government resigned shortly afterwards, and on June 2, 1974, the Knesset voted confidence in a new government headed by Yitzhak Rabin.

As Prime Minister, Rabin placed a special emphasis on improving the economy, solving social problems, and strengthening the I.D.F. With American mediation, Rabin concluded the interim agreement with Egypt in 1975. As a result of this agreement, the first Memorandum of Understanding was signed between the Government of Israel and the United States.

In June 1976, the Rabin government ordered the Entebbe Operation.

Following the Labor Party's defeat in the May 1977 elections, Rabin served as a Member of Knesset in the opposition, and was a member of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, until the formation of the National Unity Government in September 1984. He then served as Minister of Defense in the National Unity Government from September 1984 to March 1990.

From March 15, 1990, to June 23, 1992, Rabin served again as a Member of Knesset in the opposition. Before the 1992 elections, the Israel Labor Party held its first nationwide primaries. Rabin was elected Chairman of the Party in February 1992, and in the June 1992 national elections he was elected Prime Minister.

On September 13, 1993, Rabin and PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat signed the Declaration of Principles in Washington, D.C., outlining the proposed interim self-government arrangements. The “Gaza­Jericho First” agreement, signed in Cairo on May 4, 1994, addressed the implementation of the first stage of the Declaration of Principles.

Following the progress in the negotiation with the Palestinians, Rabin received the 1994 Nobel Peace Prize together with Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres and PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat.

On October 26, 1994, Rabin and King Hussein signed the Israel-Jordan peace treaty.

On November 4, 1995, Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a gunman in central Tel Aviv after attending a rally. He was laid to rest on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem.

now i suppose the romans had something to do with this too ? Malcolm

-- malcolm harrison (THEBRAINBUTCHER@AOL.COM), August 03, 2003.

All I can say is paradox. BUT...please keep in mind that... #1) This is Scripture...so if you do not believe it, you are damned since calling the Holy Spirit a liar. #2) The view of God on this is that "men" killed Jesus. Since He died for the sins of the entire world, in general, Jesus/God views the Jews and/or Romans as humankind...not as "these Jews" or "those Romans" etc. Humankind put Jesus on that cross as far as God's concern. Perhaps another way to state it is that Eve and Adam placed Him there. Kapeesh? #3) When it comes to what mankind has witnessed, the FACT is that the Jews murdered Gods Prophets with pleasure and The Savior of the World and were happy to do so. They even pronounced a curse on themselves in order to do it. (see below) this fact is explained further as so serious, that the wrath of God Almighty is at its furthest extent. #4)The home country of the Jews is spiritually equated with Sodom...Revelations 11:8 states : "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

WHENEVER YOU BRILLIANT SCHOLARS FIGURE OUT HOW ONE CAN BE MURDERED AND COMMIT SUICIDE AT THE SAME TIME LET ME KNOW.

Matthew 27:24-25 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

YES Jesus was murdered by Jews... Acts 2:23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 - For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

YES Jesus killed Himself... Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. (NOTE: the text in other places is clear that God in Flesh basically bowed is head similar to a man laying his head upon a pillow to take a nice nap. God WILLED Himself to die. Suicide is a strong word, but no other word describes better the FACT that Jesus MADE Himself die.)

Final Comment: The bible is not for politically correct wimps. Almost a million people are depicted as dead from wars etc. in the old testament alone. The bible goes further to describe the entire earth melting: (Psalms 46:6 and 2 Peter 3:10) I guess the environmentalists are really gonna be ticked off when He Returns eh?!

-- Steven Garner (mrfestoon@yahoo.com), August 12, 2003.

On the other hand...maybe the Catholics killed Jesus:

Catholicism

(R.C. = Roman Catholic)

Are Roman Catholics disciples of Christ?

The R.C. system becomes a surrogate Christ. Salvation is a mechanical thing by being attached to the Church. Attachments involve rituals, sacraments, & ceremonies. This is a sacramental kind of religion, that basically states that the path to God is through mechanical means. Examples: standing up sitting down, Genuflecting, praying prayers, going through beads, lighting candles, waving incense, eating a wafer, drinking from the cup...and they actually believe that through a miracle the wafer is actually transformed into the body of Christ and the wine is actually transformed into the blood of Christ. Literally eating the flesh and drinking His blood. (For further study of this read the book "The two Babalyons") This causes great confusion in relation to the fact that the cross was a ONCE AND FOR ALL sacrifice and atonement for sin. In fact...the system has tints of the old system in the O.T. where you had hundreds of thousands of animals slaughtered to take care of sins. There is clearly NO understanding to the significance of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross by one who practices these rituals. Hebrews 8:13 shows that the old has past away. The R.C., if asked, state that their system is the only system that encompass both old and new covenants. This is the opposite of what the bible teaches. This is why you find next to no symbolism in a Christian church because it clearly represents a ceremonial system. Paul attacked this very type of system when he attacked the Judaisers that came into the Christian fold and stated that you must be circumcised, keep the whole Mosiac ceremony, feasts, new moon, festivals, Sabbath days, & washings. Paul told them that they "corrupt grace" and that it would never make you perfect. R.C. do not believe that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. (Alone = sola) In R.C. faith you will find that they do believe in grace in faith through Christ...but the word ALONE is not there. Why one asks? Well, because they add works. They add the fact that there is something in oneself, whether internal or external, that produces a worthiness. The very heart and core of their theology is found in the official Council of Trent document of Roman Catholic Theology. This is an excerpt from canon nine on the subject of justification: "If anyone says, that the sinner is justified by faith alone, let him be anathema." (Anathema means under the divine curse...or in other words, damned) They clearly believe that there is something is in the individual that makes one worthy. In Romans 10:3 Paul addresses the idea of a person trying to establish their own righteousness. It is clearly not possible...yet the R.C. refuse to embrace the word ALONE in their theology. This is an error that if one believes, (which you must if you are truly a "Catholic") will result in damnation. To believe in anything more than Jesus Christ, whether "another Jesus" that is other than divine or "another Jesus" that through cultic magic become Jesus’ flesh itself, will result with damnation. This is Biblical. (See II Corinthians 11:4) When an individual embraces self righteousness, Paul states that one will miss the righteousness of God when doing so. Yes, there may be a very very rare situation that by God’s grace, accompanied by a person’s utter ignorance, that a person can see through all the symbolism...and actually be saved by knowing who Christ really is (obviously to a minor degree) BUT, to think that someone claims that Jesus is Lord and therefore make the leap that they are saved is unbiblical. Matt 7 shows an example where "many will say Lord Lord" and His response will be "Depart from my I never knew you". I would also go as far to state that if a R.C. did come to a point of not being ignorant of the R.C. false system, and failed to leave it (whether friends or status, or whatever one could imagine) then though God’s Mercy is more abundant than the person’s sin, they will clearly never possibly begin to have a chance to know how much faith they even have. They will be apart of a system that will keep them in bondage until they leave. Of course this is assuming the person is even saved. Personally I believe that if honestly saved, God would give strength to leave the R.C. because of what it really is...a cult system that has placed MILLIONS into hell over centuries. Also when addressing the outward choice one makes, we know from the scriptures that if one claims to know Christ but fails to stay in the fold, that they were never Christian. (See I John 2:19) They claim that there is also more to God’s diving Word than the bible. If this is the case, one must stop and read a few scriptures:

Deuteronomy 4:2 (roughly 1450 B.C.) You will not add to the word which I command you, neither will you diminish from it, so that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Revelation 22:18-19 (96 A.D.)

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. It is clear that the penalty for any one embracing a believe of "divine" words that are OUTSIDE of the Holy Spirit given revelation outside of the bible is damned. As a side note: The Boolimay were orthodox Jews that were critical to the affirmation of the Apocrypha being false. They were around another 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem. They did this at the council of Yarnia...They ALL rejected it. Because of outside indoctrination of Demons, there are many other satanic aspects of Catholicism. They have the veneration of both angels and worship Mary the mother of Christ. (Interesting that Jesus Himself, when a woman cried out "blessed be the womb that carried you" His response was "Even more blessed are those that keep God’s Word and do them OR when a person told Jesus His mother was outside, that His response was "Who is my mother?" and looked around. Mary was just a face in the crowd that needed the sacrifice on the cross as much as any do)

here a few quotes from well known Catholics:

Pope Pius 11th- Whenever we have to speak with someone who is rather closed to our argument and with whom therefore the conversation needs to be very persuasive, we go to our guardian angel.

Mother Teresa- Holy angels, our advocates, our brothers, our counselors, our defenders, our enlighteners, our friends, our guides, our helpers, our intercessors - pray for us. Both of these statements are unbiblical, and yet are honestly believed by these people because they, as ALL PROFESSED ROMAN CATHOLICS embrace doctrine outside of scripture as divinely inspired.

Some R.C. also consider it a sin for any R.C. to be converted to Protestant. They consider this "sheep stealing from just another fold." They believe that they are also Christianity and so when one converts, there is a sin committed by the one that has caused the conversion. (Not to mention that the person is now under the divine curse as we earlier read...quite an irony to say it’s another fold, yet curse the fold as not really their "True Christian Church") One would have to strain to imagine how many more WOULD have went to hell if they had not come out of that system. Yet, they insist it’s sin. It is clear that what the R.C. system considers sin, and what the bible teaches as sin are worlds apart in every respect. What is truly sin is to NOT call any out of this system. It is a sin not to proclaim the Gospel and with it sola fida...and an act of being merciless not to do so. If one loves his neighbor, one would testify to the truth of sola fida and the gospel. If not, then you will be indirectly responsible for contributing to their damnation. A few other differences between R.C. and Christianity include: The Lord’s table to the R.C. is a means of grace...the Christian believes it as symbolic of grace. R.C.’s believe that Baptism is a sacrament of regeneration, the Christian believes it as a testimonial to regeneration. For one to decide if baptism saves or is only a testimony to salvation is the difference between eternal heaven or hell. Why would one pick ceremonies that only, at most, represent Jesus Christ, when you may know Him personally and therefore be able to do away with the ceremonies? The answer is found is the scriptures. The same reason that one embraces any system outside of biblical Christianity is because satan has blinded them from seeing it.

II Corinthians 4:3-4 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds if them which believ not, lest the light of the gloroius gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

I pray that all Christians including myself would be more bold when addressing any person who is in a false religious system. Yes, they may very well be damned, but they are "in search of truth" to a much more defined degree than others that have their conscience seered and are utterly rebrobate. Because of this fact alone, we are all obligated to say the Truth whenever possible, and pray always for doors to open to doing so. For faith comes by hearing (especially since will not more than likely be reading only Truth) To not do so would be unloving...for we are all to "Go out into all the world and make disciples."

-- Steven Garner (mrfestoon@yahoo.com), August 12, 2003.

Moderator,

Please consider deleting this and the previous two messages -- i.e., those from Steven Garner, who has broken forum rules by posting blatantly anti-Catholic and anti-semitic comments (as bad as, if not worse than, the efforts of the banned David Ortiz and Kevin).

Thanks. JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), August 13, 2003.