Are there conditions for salvation?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 17, 2003

Answers

The answer to this question is YES. Go back and re-read John 3:5.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 17, 2003.

The Bible never condemns faith alone, but a faith that is dead, an empty profession. Its inward deadness is demonstrated by it's lack of an outward life. Good works and obedience demonstrate our faith to the people around us, they glorify God.

Biblically our faith is alive before baptism or any other work, it does not become more alive later. Faith is active principle in every aspect of the Christian life. Rom.14:23 "Whatever is not of faith is sin." Therefore all is by faith. We live from faith to faith. All works come from faith, Obedience comes from faith, it is faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone that saves us.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 18, 2003.

David,

The Bible does NOT state one is saved by FAITH ALONE. The apostle James PLAINLY stated that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD. So, to claim that one is saved by FAITH ALONE, that one has a DEAD FAITH it is that simple.

No, Good works and obedience do NOT demonstrate our faith to the people around us, it is to God for whom we demonstrate our Good works and obedience. Go back and re-read Hebrews chapter 11 and see how the great heroes of faith were justified. They were NOT justified by FAITH ALONE, but they DID what God COMMANDED them to do.

Please show me where Scripture states that our "faith is alive before baptism or any other work"???

The Scriptures do not instruct us to 'only believe.' Faith alone is only mentioned to be condemned. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ has a wide comprehensive meaning compared with that of the narrow, bewildering 'only believe.' The phrase, 'the moment you believe' conveys an idea that is NOT found in Scripture. Believing in Christ is never represented as a sudden change in man, it comes by the HEARING of the Word. We first hear the reasoned-out address, with proofs of the resurrection and the divinity of Christ, and the believing follows as a natural consequence. The Apostles, with many other words, testified and exhorted them. The Saviour DID NOT SAY we are saved the moment you believe. Even the thief on the cross did more than that, he openly confessed Christ. Faith makes the great changes within us, but baptism changes our state, takes us out of a state of condemnation into that of salvation. We bury the old life and rise to the new. (Romans 6:3-4). So says the apostle Paul, hear him. (1 John 4:6).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 18, 2003.

Phil. 3:9: " And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law (by works), but that through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. It is God’s grace given to us through faith, it is a gift.

As Gal. 3:22: "that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

In 1 John 5:4: " for whatever is born of God overcomes the world, and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith." vs. 5 shows us who possesses this faith " Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the son of God." Real faith is born before any ceremony or deed, it is active.

1 Jn. 5:1: "Whosoever believes (faith) that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." Jn.20:31: "But these things are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God and that believing you may have life in his name."

James 2:26 :" For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Works demonstrate what is ALIVE ON THE INSIDE. Ones works declare and manifest outwardly the reality of faith which is not visible. Only God can see inside to the heart, man can only see the outside. The fruit that a tree bears shows that it is alive, healthy and productive. The fruit of a tree is not what makes the tree alive, but its the inner nature. Faith is alive first for the good works to proceed, showing what is invisible on the inside outwardly to all.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 18, 2003.

Kevin, it seems we have a major doctrinal conflict. It will not be solved by "this verse says this, this verse says that" going back an forth. Maybe we can help each other out by saying what we believe first, finding the common ground and then talk about the issues that seperate us. From what I can read, it seems to me that you think everyone that goes to a church affiliated with a denomination is burning in hell right now. Anyways, tell me the fundamentals you believe in, then maybe we can move on.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 19, 2003.

Kevin, we cannot save ourselves. To claim that water baptism, repentance, and confession save us is heresy. Salvation is God's free gift PERIOD! You said it yourself on another thread, something about "that was the Law of Moses", well Kevin, those 'requirements' were for the Nation of Israel. You are preaching another gospel. Without faith, what good is getting baptized? Without faith, what good is repentance? Without faith, what good is confession? Faith is a God-given gift. It is by this faith alone that we are saved. By your standards of reading, (isolating verses) we would be killing animals for sacrifices.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 19, 2003.

Are you telling me we are saved by water?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 19, 2003.

The Berean Call, Kevin, go to that website, under the "Radio 200+" sections you will find the answers you need. Your heart is hardened, The truth presented to you and you still hold on to your heresy. You will find mp3 downloads where Dave Hunt will talk about salvation, and other topics that might interest you. What you say, is that Christ's death was not enough, and add 'requirements' to save yourself. I pray that you will see the truth one day.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 19, 2003.

You wrote “I have already explained to you what God requires for us to do in order to be saved. Do you even read what I wrote?”

I read the heresy you type, I already told you that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone through God’s grace alone.

You wrote “That is a true statement, there are NO Christians in either a Catholic Church NOR are there Christians in ANY denomination for NOT one of them have obeyed the gospel. “

Really now, tell me sir, what is your churches name? What cult do you belong to? Do you even have church? What building do you have fellowship in? That statement is an outright lie. It doesn’t matter what church you have fellowship in, a True Christian is a True Christ. So the only true Christians are the ones that don’t go to church?

You wrote “You went on discussing about "Lordship Salvation" and I already answered this in another thread in which you were accusing me of doing this very thing. Please go back and re-read what I wrote.”

I accuse you of adding work to the debt Christ paid in full. It’s that simple, re-read John 3:16 and all the other verses I gave you.

You wrote “No David, unfortunately it is you who are deceived and do err not knowing the truth.”

Then sir, if I don’t know the truth, No one does. Even you are guilty of adding work to the cross. So who has the truth? You sound a lot like a roman catholic with your “requirements”

You wrote “There is NO such thing as FAITH ONLY salvation. If one is saved by FAITH ONLY, that automatically rules out ANY bit of REPENTANCE, CONFESSION and BAPTISM, ALL of which are REQUIRED in order to be saved.”

There you go again, adding requirements. Sir, was not Christ’s death enough for you? Are you telling him that it was not enough, that you need more to be saved?

You wrote“Your FAITH ONLY doctrine PLAINLY ignores passages such as Acts 5:32, Acts 6:7, Romans 1:5, Romans 16:26, Romans 2:8, Galatians 3:10, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, 1 Peter 4:17, 1 Peter 3:1, Philippians 2:12, and Matthew 19:16-17.”

Your requirements PLAINLY ignore John 3:16 Rom. 3:22 Rom. 3:24 Rom. 3:26 Rom. 3:28-30 Rom. 4:3 Rom. 4:5 Rom. 4:11 Rom. 4:16 Rom. 5:1 Rom. 5:9 Rom. 9:30 Rom. 9:33 Rom. 10:4 Rom. 10:9- 10 Rom. 11:6 Gal. 2:16 Gal. 2:21 Gal.3:5-6 Gal. 3:8 Gal. 3:14 Gal. 3:22 Gal. 3:24 Eph. 1:13 Eph. 2:8 Phil. 3:9 1 Tim. 1:16

You wrote “How about answering the questions I posed above instead of doing another job of cutting and pasting and ignoring what I wrote?

Amazing, over 95% of what I posted were scriptures. I have three words for you, Context, Context, CONTEXT.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 19, 2003.

"And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived." (Numbers 21:6-9 KJV)

The people were saved by faith, it had nothing to do with the serpent..Just the act of faith that saved them. If we leave you to interpet the passage, you'd have churches making brass serpents and telling others that they are not saved if they do not have a brass serpent! Now we have a new serpent (Jesus Christ), "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 20, 2003.

Do you believe in the Literal translation of the bible Kevin? Webster's definition of Literal. 1 a : according with the letter of the scriptures b : adhering to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression : ACTUAL c : free from exaggeration or embellishment d : characterized by a concern mainly with facts 2 : of, relating to, or expressed in letters 3 : reproduced word for word :

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 20, 2003.

Kevin, you still have not answered me, What church do you go to? Do you even go to church? I know your non-denominational. I don't see why it is so hard for you to admit that True Christians go to denominational churches. So how many True Christians are there? Why are you 1 out of a billion? Many claim to follow God's Word, why are you so different? Why should I believe you?(which I don't). Truth is Kevin, you are a false prophet. One day you have to answer to God why you spoke against the Blessed Hope(rapture), his gifts(baptism in the holy spirit), and why you added your own work to the price that Christ paid in full on the cross. No, I cannot give you a passage that says "faith alone", that's just typical of you verse isolators. The bible can be made to say many things, like "curse God" or "money is the root of all evil". I pray for you Kevin, that God will open your eyes in the future discussions.

In Christ
David

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 20, 2003.