Are we born with original sin or are we born without sin?

-- Mike (blank@none.com), July 23, 2003

Answers

with original sin

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), July 23, 2003.

We are born without personal sin; but we are born bearing the effects of the sin of Adam and Eve, inherited by the entire human race, since the sin was committed by the entire human race at the time - Adam and Eve. This innate spiritual weakness, this tendency toward evil, this absence of grace, which resulted from the original sin that the human race committed against God, is generally spoken of as being "born in original sin", though it is really more correct to say "born subject to the effects of original sin". There is no personal guilt involved. This distinction is apparent in the Church's teaching on Baptism, which we say "removes" original sin, rather than "forgives" original sin.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 23, 2003.

"removes" original sin

ie "removes"...."[T]his innate spiritual weakness, this tendency toward evil, this absence of grace"

i wish.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), July 23, 2003.

That's true Ian,

Baptism does not completely restore us to the state Adam and Eve were in before they sinned. But it does remove the barrier to grace and salvation which are inherent in our fallen state. It does restore us to a state of grace, allowing us to be children of God and hears of heaven, and it does help us in our struggle against our "innate spiritual weakness, tendency toward evil, and absence of grace". But we still suffer some of the effects of original sin, just by virtue of being human. Human nature itself was affected.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 23, 2003.

Hi,Paul and Ian.

I believe your definition is the best I have read for original sin. I think your second answer to Ian says it best, going with what Ian said, I believe baptism does not remove original sin but the barrier that get us closer to God.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), July 23, 2003.

Paul,

are you saying that, if a survey was taken worldwide, it would positively show that baptised people are "more generous in spirit [ie less inclined to "sin"]" than unbaptised people?

i firmly believe that baptism is necessary for salvation; but i would have thought that we can leave that as a requirement set by Our Lord, eg St John 3:5 (and thus our Church) -- without trying to allude to some concept of "removal".

the consequence being that, whilst the survey may well show that the unbaptised people are in the main "better people", it is only the "good people" amongst the baptised that will get to see Heaven.

....or maybe i just don't get the point!

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), July 24, 2003.

Hebrews 2:14,17 - He shared in flesh and blood, made in all things like us.

Luke 3:38; Galatians 4:4 - He was a descendant of Adam, born of woman.

2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 3:5; 1 Peter 2:22 - Yet Jesus knew no sin. In Him is no sin, because He did no sin [Heb. 4:15; 7:26]

If we inherit sin from Adam, then Jesus must have inherited it since he was a descendant of Adam and was like us in all things

-- Mike (blank@none.com), July 24, 2003.

Right Mike - except for one essential fact - the Immaculate Conception. His mother was conceived without sin, therefore so was He. This is one of the reasons we know that the Immaculate Conception is an unavoidable doctrinal necessity, and therefore a doctrinal truth..

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 24, 2003.

Mike, this essential fact is reflected in the letter to the Hebrews, chapter 4, verse 15: "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weakness, but one who has been similarly tested in every way, yet without sin."

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), July 24, 2003.

oops,Mike, I see your point, I reiterated one of your scripture references.. all the more does Paul's comment on the Immaculate Conception highlight truth. Excellent!This indeed is an unavoidable doctrinal necessity. Thanks, Paul. Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), July 24, 2003.

you know, how could we possibly ponder this event in history without recognizing the righteous elevation of our dear Blessed Mother!

-- Theresa (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), July 24, 2003.

How was Mary born sinless, what her mother sinless too?

-- Mike (blank@none.com), July 24, 2003.

No, her mother was not sinless. Mary was conceived sinless by the direct action of the Holy Spirit at the moment of her conception, for the very reason that you so clearly demonstrated. The sinless God could only come into the world, and remain sinless, through the cooperation of a sinless mother, specifically made that way by God, for that very purpose.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 24, 2003.

.. and her sinlessness is due to Christ her Son's death on Calvary, just as our debt is paid by Him before our existence, her debt was paid by Him after her birth. God, being out of time and space as we know it, accomplished this in His power. T

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), July 25, 2003.

We are born into the human family so inherit all the weaknesses of human nature wounded by Adam's fall. Original sin isn't an issue of personal guilt as much as a belief that human beings are conceived and born into an objective state of life that is not blessed by God automatically... Baptism restores this supernatural (therefore, not natural) grace to the soul.

-- Withheld 2 (Withheld@yahoo.com), July 25, 2003.